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Marie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
650
the whole "batman doesn't give his wealth to the people" thing is dumb

Batman power is literally infinite money to fund what he does in the comics. Like random joe isn't having a suit of armor that has built in defense for war + chemical warfare + intergalactic enemies without some kind of resource.

Like yeah, batman could literally give all his wealth to the poor in that universe, and the writers would be like "activate infinite money glitch" to continue telling his stories.
 

TheDutchSlayer

Did you find it? Cuez I didn't!
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,995
The Hauge, The Netherlands
The Batman writers--and most cape book writers really--actually understand the concept of 'crime not actually done by evil.'

That is why Batman stories inevitably move on from bank robbers and muggers to clowns, eco-terrorists, and 'indirect assholes.' Often really quickly.

Batman is bad for Gotham in the exact way all superheroes are fundamentally broken as a concept. Apply even the mildest bit of critical realism and what you really have is a bunch of probably pseudo-cops running around but without even the thin veneer of accoutnability.

Hank is absolutely right, but John's point is super important and is almost never directly addressed in mainstream cape books.
Thanks for your reply glad you enjoyed the video (DFTBA)
Well said.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
Really? I knew Dick had some inheritance money from his folks/the circus, but how did Babs strike it rich?
She started had a tech startup and then branched out into a green energy startup and got rich, which she then used to fund her Batgirl stuff part-time while she focused on those two things. And Dick inherited billions from Alfred and is about to use it to degentrify Bludhaven from the looks of it.
 

DreamRunner

Banned
Sep 14, 2020
934
"please stop critically engaging with ideas and values presented by the culture of popular media"

Go ahead and like Batman, but if you're going to try and actively dismiss inherently problematic ideas about a character from the 1930's, then you're just being dishonest about things. People want comic characters to be taken seriously and be valued as if this isn't goofy shit for kids, but if they are going to engage with topics about wealth and criminal justice, then they bring that scrutiny on themselves.
It's not that deep, bro.Batman is a comic book character made for children.
 

ARobotCalledV

Member
Aug 22, 2020
1,554
I also don't get why people are bringing up real billionares like we are defending them. It's fictional. For a more extreme example, I like Frieza from DBZ and all but does that mean I'll call like Hitler "entertaining" or cool" or condone genocide or slavery? OFC not.

Clear difference between a villain and Batman who you are suppose to idolize. If society is at the point where we widely condem billionaires, is it not right to criticize one of our most iconic heroes for representing one?

It's also not about the suspense of disbelief that he has infinite money, it's rather should we have a billionaire as a hero for kids to look up to?

Some might argue we aren't supposed to look up to Batman, that his problems have been long analyzed within his stories. But these deconstructions only exists because we continue to have criticisms of the character.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
Isn't Batman in a constant inner conflict about whether he actually is a good guy? He isn't as much of a hero as he wishes he was and he knows that.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,223
But I want superheroes to be recognized as inherently goofy shit for kids. :(

Doesn't mean we can't engage with them critically, but I think a lot of the issue is adults trying to force what's essentially a fantasy for children into something it's not. Superheroes, when not being deconstructed, generally work best as children's lit/YA. That's not to say adults can't enjoy it. But the superhero genre is ultimately problematic because it's essentially giving a small few the monopoly on violence. I don't know any superhero story (where you are supposed to root for the superhero as protagonist) that gets away from that.
I do wish creators would try to write more superhero stories where the superhero solves conflict without resorting to violence. Or actually gets to solve systemic issue. People keep mentioning it in this thread, but why hasn't Gotham been saved? In-universe the explanation is a literal curse. But honestly, the "curse" is that DC thinks we would stop buying Batman stuff if Bruce actually succeeded.

But DC and Marvel are convinced that we prefer stories were nothing is actually resolved and where for the majority of consumers the most exciting part is watching people physically fighting. And given by how the most popular interpretations are pretty much exactly that, unfortunately they might be right.

The most exciting part in Batman stories for me is when Bruce hangs out with his children just doing normal stuff and telling them he loves them.
I don't really like the mentality of "This genre can be only one thing", why does it have to be all adult or all goofy stuff for kids? Why not both like so many other genres. I've seen this same mentality applied to Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Horror and yes, even entire mediums like animation and comics and I find to be incredibly short sighted and uncreative.

That's not say works for YA or Children are bad, lots of it often ends up being more mature and better written then supposed adult works, but a genre can be so many things, say and do a lot well depending on the writer and artist and like any genre, shouldn't be tied down to arbitrary rules like those who think only Hard Sci-Fi is REAL sci-fi or that Fantasy must depict their elves the same exact way etc.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
Isn't Batman in a constant inner conflict about whether he actually is a good guy? He isn't as much of a hero as he wishes he was and he knows that.

No, that kind of internal angst is performative. Kinda. Maybe a better way to say it is that it is needlessly self-flagatory.

Neither they nor Bruce truly think he is a bad guy, but they know that a hero that deals with the sort of darkness he does should be asking themselves that question, even if it leads nowhere.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
It's also not about the suspense of disbelief that he has infinite money, it's rather should we have a billionaire as a hero for kids to look up to?
If your kid can't tell the difference between a billionaire that dumps bucketloads of their wealth out at a time for no personal gain or monetary return on investment compared to a real world billionaires who only give enough money so as to benefit themselves, then your kid also doesn't think of Batman as a billionaire in such a way as to universalize the concept to real billionaires.

It also helps that half of Bruce's enemies are rich themselves, just not as much so.

Also who gives a fuck about billionaire philanthropy

Elite philanthropy mainly self-serving

Philanthropy among the elite class in the United States and the United Kingdom does more to create goodwill for the super-wealthy than to alleviate social ills for the poor, according to a new meta-analysis.
Functionally, the difference between Bruce and real billionaires is that real billionaires are still trying to continue gaining wealth while they give a pittance of what they earn to philanthropic pursuits. Bruce is tossing out money towards pursuits that don't make him any money in return as fast as humanely possible and it's just not fast enough to outpace the infinite money spigot.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
Also who gives a fuck about billionaire philanthropy

Elite philanthropy mainly self-serving

Philanthropy among the elite class in the United States and the United Kingdom does more to create goodwill for the super-wealthy than to alleviate social ills for the poor, according to a new meta-analysis.

In the real world? 100%.

In a comic book, it is sort of important because it is the only way to show that your billionaire is one of the good ones without destroying the storytelling avenues by making them give up their wealth.

I don't really like the mentality of "This genre can be only one thing", why does it have to be all adult or all goofy stuff for kids? Why not both like so many other genres. I've seen this same mentality applied to Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Horror and yes, even entire mediums like animation and comics and I find to be incredibly short sighted and uncreative.

That's not say works for YA or Children are bad, lots of it often ends up being more mature and better written then supposed adult works, but a genre can be so many things, say and do a lot well depending on the writer and artist and like any genre, shouldn't be tied down to arbitrary rules like those who think only Hard Sci-Fi is REAL sci-fi or that Fantasy must depict their elves the same exact way etc.

You are not wrong, but I think her point is that it is common to take ideas that inherently belonging to a specific domain, try to scale and age it up and introduce all sorts of issues.

In this case, Batman is super consistent and pretty harmless as a kid's property but becomes increasingly problematic on multiple fronts when you try to age his stories with the audience.

The question then becomes this: is the character the problem, or is the fact you dropped him in a context he may not have been designed for the problem.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
The laziness of this criticism is so annoying. The DC and marvel universes are nothing like our world. Ultimately our global problems are global warming, poverty, genocides etc. In the DC and Marvel universes there are like hundreds of intergalactic beings trying to destroy/ take over the earth, not to mention all the supervillains on earth. Any argument that forgets this is incredibly shallow. Our arguments about what billionaires should do in our universe are based in an understanding of our world (and our problems) that doesn't carry over into these fictional universes.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
The laziness of this criticism is so annoying. The DC and marvel universes are nothing like our world. Ultimately our global problems are global warming, poverty, genocides etc. In the DC and Marvel universes there are like hundreds of intergalactic beings trying to destroy/ take over the earth, not to mention all the supervillains on earth. Any argument that forgets this is incredibly shallow. Our arguments about what billionaires should do in our universe are based in an understanding of our world (and our problems) that doesn't carry over into these fictional universes.

Ultimately as actual criticism, it is incredibly lazy and offputtingly smug.

That said, as a catalyst for discussing the sort of stories comics do/do not tell and exploring the inherent stasis of the medium, it is very useful.

The problem is that for too many, it is just a shortcut for, 'I never really liked this character, so I am going to drop in and use this conversation as the reason why.' The sentiment is fine, the way it ends up hijacking the conversation is not.

Like I think I have only been in one of these conversations online where the general consensus was that Batman stories as written should inspect Bruce Wayne and how he relates to his wealth and privilege more. Most of the time it becomes fanboy nonsense.v
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
4,355
Batman would do what he does regardless of his wealth; it's simply a tool available. He didn't seek to be rich it was one of the outcomes of his parents murder. I always thought that his wealth was something to resist in so far as it was a temptation to lead a simple shallow life as most people would. It was one of the reasons I always liked the character.

It's perfectly fine to dislike Batman and mistrust his motivations in fighting street level crime but being a billionaire I think is incidental. Lazy haters are never going to analyse beyond 'rich white saviour guy' but the other thing I like about the Bat is that he couldn't give a shit.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Clear difference between a villain and Batman who you are suppose to idolize. If society is at the point where we widely condem billionaires, is it not right to criticize one of our most iconic heroes for representing one?

It's also not about the suspense of disbelief that he has infinite money, it's rather should we have a billionaire as a hero for kids to look up to?

Some might argue we aren't supposed to look up to Batman, that his problems have been long analyzed within his stories. But these deconstructions only exists because we continue to have criticisms of the character.
I mean you could also argue why should kids look up to super heroes, they are vigilantes who take the law in their own hands and break it or by keeping secret identities, they lie to their loved ones, so its teaching kids lying is ok and so is keeping secrets
 

ARobotCalledV

Member
Aug 22, 2020
1,554
If your kid can't tell the difference between a billionaire that dumps bucketloads of their wealth out at a time for no personal gain or monetary return on investment compared to a real world billionaires who only give enough money so as to benefit themselves

Media is rampant with the heroic cop character, which we now rightfully criticize due to the abhorrent reality of police, so we question wether we should perpetuate that kind of corrupt role model.

"If your kid can't tell the difference between a cop who only locks up bad guys with rightful justice in fiction, compared to the reality..."
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,223
Yeah, it can be annoying, especially when they are posted randomly just to seem to get a rise out of people or to troll as I've seen of late, like those who say "Smash is a party game" on the gaming side and elsewhere on the web. Their is arguments to be had and good points on both sides and good discourse can happen, but a lot of the time I've seen people not want to engage or haven't got much say expect spouting memes, which is honestly something that gets really tiring in online discourse.

The one of these hot takes that was just eye-rolling and I'm surprised last so long was there "Aquaman sucks" jokes, all based on the Super Friends version and I'm convinced most people who kept going on and on and on and on about never watch Super Friends or read a Aquaman comic because it was the same jokes every time (because repeating someone else's joke me you funny right! /s). It went on for so long that the jokes kind of got warpped and didn't make any sense like "He can't live outside the ocean!" (what?) or "Anyone can get his ass/I ca kick his ass!" which... HAHAHA okay, even somehow he doesn't have powers on land, he's built like a body builder so SUUUUUUUUUUUURE random on a forum board, I totally believe you can kick his arse /s

What was funny was seeing all these people plus hack comedians desperately try to find a replacement for the Aquaman jokes prior to the DCEU one coming out. I remember some trying with Hawkeye... Seemingly not knowing the comics have already been doing that for decades and the Age of Ultron kind of killed that attempt, Fire Storm, Ray Palmer, Namor etc. All the same joke with the name changed, all failing because apparently writing original and clever jokes is hard.
You are not wrong, but I think her point is that it is common to take ideas that inherently belonging to a specific domain, try to scale and age it up and introduce all sorts of issues.

In this case, Batman is super consistent and pretty harmless as a kid's property but becomes increasingly problematic on multiple fronts when you try to age his stories with the audience.

The question then becomes this: is the character the problem, or is the fact you dropped him in a context he may not have been designed for the problem.

The thing is about Batman though is that I don't think that true. Like reading the original Golden comics, especially comparing them to Superman or the All-Star comics, they often ended up coming as aiming for an older audience (not necessarily adult), hell people talk about how the Joker has gotten too dark nowadays, the original Golden Joker was a straight up relentless killer.

The thing people forget is that the Silver Age for Batman, the time of the multi coloured batsuits, Bat baby etc, nearly killed Batman as a comic, sales dropped massively and DC nearly cancelled Batman books, only not because of the success of the Adam West show which actually WAS more mature then the comics at time (even if fans in the 80s and 90s unfairly stigmatized it) which even then, was just a small boost. It wasn't until the works of Neil Adams, Frank Miller, Gerry Conway, Len Wein and many others that Batman comics became popular again and it's this Batman that so much of his modern pop-culture is based around, where the Burton movies, the Batman The Animated Series, the Nolan and Snyder films etc.

That's the thing, the turning something for kids to be more adult already happened decades ago with Batman, I'd argue the issue is that people like with the Snyder films take that even further and then miss the point. The X-Men comics which also had this happen between the Lee books and the Chris Claremont run also suffer from this issue.
 

beat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,518
Grant Morrison said it best:

"Adults…struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real."

"Kids understand that real crabs don't sing like the ones in The Little Mermaid. But you give an adult fiction, and the adult starts asking really fucking dumb questions like `how does superman fly? How do those eyebeams work? Who pumps the batmobile's tires?' it's a fucking made-up story, you idiot! Nobody pumps the tires!"
I respect the hell out of Morrison, but I think this is a little ridiculous. No story deserves, nor can expect, unlimited suspension of disbelief. There are some things we as the audience collectively agree to not question, and that list of things isn't set in stone.

Sometimes asking those questions leads to cool new ideas, like Damage Control answering how society can keep on going when superhuman fights inflict catastrophic damage to cities every issue. Or how Byrne's "it's all psychic powers" explanation for Superman eventually led to Kon-El's "tactile telekinesis" power, an interesting evolution on Superman's powers. Or asking who makes Batman's toys leads to Harold Allnut.
What the hell harm does Batman cause?
Stories shape culture. A grim and gritty street-level Batman is fiction that paves the way for real world consequences: (granted, this take is more about him beating up muggers than him being a billionaire.)
One of the big problems with "dark and gritty" Batman movies is that the people writing them can't craft a mystery that's so complex only Batman can solve it, so Batman's "superpower" ends up being "the ability to violate people's Constitutional rights."

Batman "gets results" because he doesn't have to follow the rules that cops do, thus implying that cops would be so much more effective at their jobs if they didn't have to follow those rules.

And the grittier the Batman movie is, the fewer powers he's granted through his wealth. In a heightened reality Batman has supercomputers, ninja skills, fascinating nonlethal gadgets.

A gritty batman has all the same powers as a cop in riot armor with no legal restrictions.

[…]

This is what makes Batman an advertisement for abusive policing, packed movie theatres cheering for brutal violations of our social contract and an implication that we could have thousands of Batmans if we'd just look the other way and let cops take care of things.
(I mean, this is why Morrison had BatGod fighting Darkseid and not muggers and kidnappers.)
But yeah, it annoys me when people criticizes his supposed lack of philanthropy.
A lack of philanthropy is not the problem. The problem is hoarding billions. Billionaire philanthropy is spending (fractions of) pennies to keep ill-gained dollars.
The DC and marvel universes are nothing like our world.
The reason superhero stories are compelling is because they are like our world. The threats don't have to be real but they have to be resonant. Think of how BTVS took real world issues and extrapolated them into supernatural
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
I find it funny that this is being brought up now because it's an issue that could be easily solved by the existence of Robin in the movies.

Robin wasn't some late addition to the Batman comics, he was introduced on the 38th issue of Batman because the writers quickly realized they needed a counterpoint to Batman and make for a far more interesting story. Someone to help him understand the struggles of common people, give him a new perspective.

I hate that as the DC Batmen get refreshed over and over again, and we get the origin story over and over again we rarely reach the point when Robin enters the story. Yes we have the Joel Schumacher movies but those are as close to the source material as Lego Batman is, but with zero of the qualities.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
I respect the hell out of Morrison, but I think this is a little ridiculous. No story deserves, nor can expect, unlimited suspension of disbelief. There are some things we as the audience collectively agree to not question, and that list of things isn't set in stone.

Sometimes asking those questions leads to cool new ideas, like Damage Control answering how society can keep on going when superhuman fights inflict catastrophic damage to cities every issue. Or how Byrne's "it's all psychic powers" explanation for Superman eventually led to Kon-El's "tactile telekinesis" power, an interesting evolution on Superman's powers. Or asking who makes Batman's toys leads to Harold Allnut.

Stories shape culture. A grim and gritty street-level Batman is fiction that paves the way for real world consequences: (granted, this take is more about him beating up muggers than him being a billionaire.)

(I mean, this is why Morrison had BatGod fighting Darkseid and not muggers and kidnappers.)

A lack of philanthropy is not the problem. The problem is hoarding billions. Billionaire philanthropy is spending (fractions of) pennies to keep ill-gained dollars.

The reason superhero stories are compelling is because they are like our world. The threats don't have to be real but they have to be resonant. Think of how BTVS took real world issues and extrapolated them into supernatural
The one thing I disagree with about the point is that the GCPD is often depicted as being incompetent and corrupt. So a gritty Batman isn't necessarily just a cop with no rules and riot gear, he's a functional alternative to law enforcement because they're either too dumb or just another style of criminal he has to weed out. It's why he really only works with Gordon and Bullock.

While it can lean into the "good cop/not a bad apple" framework, Batman basically keeping them at an arms length could be a sign that Bruce understands the other half of the idiom and is more a stylized imagining of the other end of the police abolishment spectrum given what he puts all of his resources into crime wise and the resources he puts out on the other end for job creation, housing, and living wages.

Batman being a violent ninja socialist is a take that I don't completely buy into, but that angle makes much more sense to me from a gritty story sense than it does as him being just a riot cop with infinite jurisdiction.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,631
IMG_3015.jpg

Peter calling out Sauron here is pretty funny when he himself is literally a super scientist who spends much of his time fighting street level crime. Just making his webbing public would be hugely beneficial to humanity.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,285
Someone dressing up as a bat and beating the shit out of the disenfranchised is somehow less performative than billionaire philanthropy.
 

Crimson-Death

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,515
Purgatory
All the bad, boring takes, especially from the front page of this thread, the nature of crime, evil and not evil criminals, reform, rehabilitation, redemption, so on and so forth and whatever Bruce Wayne actually does with his money and power, all of it has been explored ad nauseam in the comics. All the false-gotchas sugesting a billionare like Batman should not be looked up to because the circumstances of his money makes it all evil or at best complacent to the evils of capitalism, and a rampant, unbridled cop-character like Batman should be shamed for fighting street-level crimes brought upon by inadequacies of a failed societal system that must repudiated by a pseudo-intellectual progressivism— yaaaaaawn, fucking please just read his fucking comics. They can show so much and explore so much of those themes in the movies and cartoons, after all we want cool fights and cool super villains.


The one thing I disagree with about the point is that the GCPD is often depicted as being incompetent and corrupt. So a gritty Batman isn't necessarily just a cop with no rules and riot gear, he's a functional alternative to law enforcement because they're either too dumb or just another style of criminal he has to weed out. It's why he really only works with Gordon and Bullock.

While it can lean into the "good cop/not a bad apple" framework, Batman basically keeping them at an arms length could be a sign that Bruce understands the other half of the idiom and is more a stylized imagining of the other end of the police abolishment spectrum given what he puts all of his resources into crime wise and the resources he puts out on the other end for job creation, housing, and living wages.

Batman being a violent ninja socialist is a take that I don't completely buy into, but that angle makes much more sense to me from a gritty story sense than it does as him being just a riot cop with infinite jurisdiction.

I am reminded of the great, gritty and awesome series Gotham Central, because Batman is an alternative to cops because of the nature of evil that comes forth in the city, his fault or not, it must be dealt with, nice and simple themes but extremely powerful as seen from the GCPD's viewpoint. After this thread I got a really strong hankering to reread the series again.
 
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sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
This thread has an embarrassing amount of NOT REAL FANS takes.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,119
Gentrified Brooklyn
MCU Iron Man at least makes it a point that he got his cash through ill gotten gains. Problem is there are no good billionaires; nobody makes that kind of money without effectively being anti-monopoly, pushing regulatory rules to their ethical limit, etc.

You can argue Batman's pops made the cash and was an asshole (which I wouldn't mind them stressing like they did in the Joker flick) and Brucie is in his Bill Gates foundation era.

But if he's actively making cash, its a tough thing to get around. Particularly since much of his job is based around crimes due to cash. Him giving a shitload of it away doesn't explain he most likely got it through shitty means.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
This thread has an embarrassing amount of NOT REAL FANS takes.

I mean if you spend your time on surface level takes like the ones littering this thread chances are reading Batman comics isn't giving you what you think it is.

I don't understand why anyone who feels this way about this fictional character would then go and happily keep deluging themselves with his media for what seems to be the explicit purpose of continuing to get mad about this fake billionaire being a detective ninja who fights a murder clown.

Like if I read Lord of the Rings I'm not gonna sit here and ask why anyone is bothering walking to Mt. Doom when they could just fly there on the Eagles. I'm not gonna play Psychonauts and ask why the heroes don't just bring a gun with them to shoot the bad guys in the face instead of engaging in psychic duels. I'm not gonna read a superhero comic and expect things to get solved by anything other than a superhero the same way if I spend some time with Transformers media I wouldn't expect any problem shown to be solvable by anyone other than a giant robot who can turn into a truck.

I'm just passing through but I gotta say I really dislike the "Batman is for children so you can't critique him too deeply" narrative. Even ignoring the idea that reactionary ethos in children's media is somehow more okay it's simply not true. Batman has been aimed at and consumed by adults longer than I've been alive. We just had an R rated spinoff about Batman's archenemy and pretty much every Batman film of the last 20 years has been firmly aimed at older audiences. That's not getting into video games and comics in which I highly doubt children are the primary consumers of regarding Batman.

Yeah and that's annoying because they took a character who existed for children's fantasy fiction, started peddling him for adults, and then completely failed to grasp what that would now mean for him except for "Batman does the same stuff but now all his villains are murderers with mental health disorders because that's realistic and deep and his home has to be a constant nightmare city for all eternity where he causes zero helpful progress."

But the existence of a Billionaire Hero is pretty much on the same level of cop or crime fiction. Real people who fit these molds don't act like this, but it ain't real. I didn't play Astral Chain and think to myself "damn these cops are so cool", I didn't play Yakuza and think "this is exactly how organized crime works." I didn't play Ace Attorney and think "lawyers are definitely this noble and definitely this interested in their client's innocence." If I read a story about a medieval noble knight and loyal samurai I am reading the historical lionization of people who were the cops back in their day and existed to stomp on the underclass for the benefit of their monarchs, who rolled up one day and said God gave them the right to rule.

To be as clear as can be since I think I've been muddying my own message with all my hot takes: If the problem someone has is that Batman's a billionaire and they don't want anything to lionize that, that the existence of a billionaire protagonist who does heroics is inherently propaganda for the rehabilitation of the rich in public conscious, I think that's fine and a sensible approach to discuss why we maybe shouldn't have these kinds of characters anymore. I don't think going into Batman stories, pulp adventure superhero stories, and asking why Batman does things that don't facilitate pulp superhero adventure stories, makes a lick of sense or deserves to be treated as some nuanced critique of the character anymore than if I were to complain that Steven Universe didn't solve his problems by bashing the Diamonds up the head with a chair, and often in these threads the argument is less the former than it is "I read on Cracked.com that Batman is crazy and should fund infrastructure in Gotham."
 
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pikachief

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,518
Batman helps *everyone* by using his money to save the world.

The only thing I don't like about batman is how he's just written to win just because he's batman in every scenario he's in. At least in popular media, I'm sure theres plenty of good batman comics with his failures.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,914
United Kingdom
It's an interesting idea certainly. If Batman's parents hadn't been killed by a mugger when he was a kid, but by say, a plane crash, what does he do?

He doesn't become Batman and probably ends up like his dad and corrupt (probably). His pursuit of vengeance is what caused him to travel around the world and see Gotham at all levels which gave him a better understanding of Gotham City as it is, not what he thought it was looking down from his tower or hidden in his mansion with his parents. It gave him that sense of the reality (and brutality) of Gotham.
At least that's how I see it.

Also, without Batman (and thus if his parents never died and he lived like the billionaire everyone thinks he is), most of the rogues gallery probably wouldn't have carried on as long as they have, some of them are only active because of Batman, so he is his own worst enemy in a way too.
 

Reym

Member
Jul 15, 2019
2,649
I'm way mare tired of the "Batman plans for everything!" Takes to be honest. Especially since they're often cannon.
 

ThLunarian

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,547
There's a thousand other ways Batman could more effectively use his money to improve others' lives than buying and designing near-future toys to fight criminals, many of which only exist because of him.

Don't get me wrong, I love Batman, but there's a lot of flawed logic in his rationale.


It makes a lot more sense in the context of the Justice League, where Batman's resources play a major part in keeping up with cosmic level threats and coordinating the team. But in his solo stories in Gotham it is kind of silly, yeah
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
You can argue Batman's pops made the cash and was an asshole (which I wouldn't mind them stressing like they did in the Joker flick) and Brucie is in his Bill Gates foundation era.
Great great great grandparents. The Waynes were already rich when Gotham was founded. He's old money.
He doesn't become Batman and probably ends up like his dad and corrupt (probably).
Guessing your only experience with Batman is Todd Phillips shitty Joker movie.

The Waynes were killed because they were actively trying to make a dent in how shit the city was and were getting somewhere slowly.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,161
Greater Vancouver
I will say that I appreciate stories like Telltale's Batman series that directly engage with the fact that Bruce's parents and their wealth are inherently tied to Gotham's criminal element. That they too benefitted from the corruption of that system.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
I always love this argument because in goddamned cursed-as-fuck Gotham, ya'll think Bruce couldn't dump out literal billions of money without some wacky shit like rampant embezzling, super-villains robbing said riches, or because it's HELL-CURSED GOTHAM THE MONEY PROBABLY BECOMES SENTIENT AND BECOMES A BATMAN VILLAIN
Ohhhh

Yesss

Bruce donates a billion dollars and it takes on human form of pale green lady masked criminal psycho named Charitee, whose henchmen all wear masks of the people on the various dollar bills.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
None of this would be a problem if comics weren't so tied up to continuity.

"Gotham is cursed and can never be fixed" is probably the worse most braindead justification writers have come up with, up there with shit like Superman hypnotizing people to change how he looks disguised.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
None of this would be a problem if comics weren't so tied up to continuity.

"Gotham is cursed and can never be fixed" is probably the worse most braindead justification writers have come up with, up there with shit like Superman hypnotizing people to change how he looks disguised.

For a brief moment in the 90s it was explained that Batman stays perpetually young and barely has to sleep because Wayne Manor is a cosmic nexus or something.
 

Mr Spasiba

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,779
It's usually from people who's entire exposure to the character was watching random episodes of TAS 20 years ago and maybe one or two of the Nolan films so it's not a take worth engaging in.
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,238
I will say that I appreciate stories like Telltale's Batman series that directly engage with the fact that Bruce's parents and their wealth are inherently tied to Gotham's criminal element. That they too benefitted from the corruption of that system.
I did like that, and Bruce having to come to terms with his family's legacy.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,601
It's fine to like fictional media that has horrific real world implications, and ok to look at those things critically. The critical examination doesn't diminish the enjoyment, and may even enhance it.

I loved 24, but in the real world everything that happened would be a war crime and I'd be 100% opposed to Jack's actions. Even though I enjoy the show, criticizing torture and spying as presented in the show was necessary.
 

CenaToon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
Batman is problematic and no one wants to admit it. He avoids paying his fair share of taxes, he is a vigilante who works for cops, not the people. He invests in weapons technology. He invests in the prison industry, including Arkham asylum. He commits fraud and tax evasion and obfuscates his finances to hide his military tech enabling him to be the Batman.

he is horrible.

That's what i was going to ask. Has Bruce Wayne talked about taxes to the rich in any point of the comics? All the filantropy causes Wayne Enterprises do, they declare it in their taxes to pay less or they still pay the same amount?
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
That's what i was going to ask. Has Bruce Wayne talked about taxes to the rich in any point of the comics? All the filantropy causes Wayne Enterprises do, they declare it in their taxes to pay less or they still pay the same amount?

It's never been acknowledged because there is no one, not a single soul on Earth, who wants to read about Batman filing his taxes.
 

CenaToon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
It's never been acknowledged because there is no one, not a single soul on Earth, who wants to read about Batman filing his taxes.

lol right, but im not talking about a whole edition about bruce making his taxes, but if in one of those speeches or conversations wayne always does, he mentiones something about it... i dont know, like "we in wayne enterprises pay more taxes because that's what billionaires should do", or something like that.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
Yep. It's lazy, and is always brought up by people who act like they're the only ones who could so brilliantly skewer a fictional billionaire.
 

Deleted member 17092

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Oct 27, 2017
20,360
the whole "batman doesn't give his wealth to the people" thing is dumb

Batman power is literally infinite money to fund what he does in the comics. Like random joe isn't having a suit of armor that has built in defense for war + chemical warfare + intergalactic enemies without some kind of resource.

Like yeah, batman could literally give all his wealth to the poor in that universe, and the writers would be like "activate infinite money glitch" to continue telling his stories.

Iirc bruce does give money away.

Any yeah if he literally gave all of it away he couldn't be batman anymore.

If he did give all of it away the the writers would find more money for him to keep being batman, and then people would still be mad he isn't giving away all of his money.

Bruce wayne the philanthropist and progressive tax supporter isn't why people read batman. I suppose they could spend a little more time on it but yeah it seems a little silly.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
Bruce Wayne could do so much for the city with his money but doesn't. Like, he has the money to shelter all the homeless people, stock food banks, help pay for student lunches, set up free after school centers, etc but he wants sweet new power suits, private military planes and cars, and intricate battle suits for his kid sidekicks.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
I feel like you'd need to understand the real-world equivalent critique first to understand that "take" (which the person behind the Twitter thread in the OP clearly doesn't.)