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Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,495
I read a thread on this topic recently.


this is a good thread. people outside of these industries see turnover and churn as the nature of the beast in retail and restaurants. but management within these industries don't actually want high turnover. they want good, faithful, longtime workers who know everything and are highly efficient when it comes to every single process in their stores. they want employees who are capable of building sturdy, long lasting relationships with customers.

they just don't want to protect the employees or pay them well, and so they accept the churn.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,000
Kind of curious to find out how many service/retail workers used the pandemic to find better jobs, pick up blue collar skilled labor, or go back to school. But yeah just driving around lately I don't think I've ever seen so many hiring signs all at once. Who wants to go back to work at any of these shit places though? They laid off tons of people, and then expect them to come back to work for poverty wages and terrible treatment. Good luck with all that. The situation will probably persist until summer when all the teens are available to work.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Somehow I doubt law school or luxury concierges are representative of where 2.5 million people went, many with "rampant drug and alcohol problems". A lot of people have apparently found subsistence elsewhere, time will tell whether it's unemployment stipends, different jobs, or school.

But what happens when they raise their wages and don't see an increase in profit to justify it, even though none of it should have to be justified and, innately, everyone needs to be paid a fair wage to live in these countries in this century.

Is the answer just that they close down? Because they stopped engaging in the same worker exploitation that keeps everyone else alive? How do we overcome this on its fundamental level? How do towns without the same level of business as larger cities pay the same wages?

I need to stress again that I am not trying to argue against fair wages for all employees. I want to understand this on a technical level that I can cleanly argue how things can improve, rather than just that they should.

I guess maybe a more pertinent question would be: business owners like this, are they lying to me? Is this something they could easily survive, even if it were just them increasing their wages?

According to the end of the article, they've added a second tip line for a second tip, third one is on the way.
 

whatsinaname

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,051
So if the foh and boh are paid peanuts and restaurants run on "razor thin margins" and owners don't make much money* and most restaurants fail in year one, I wonder where all the value generated is going. Raw materials markup? Rent?

(*I think I am gonna take that with a grain of salt).
 
Nov 29, 2018
1,084
Kind of curious to find out how many service/retail workers used the pandemic to find better jobs, pick up blue collar skilled labor, or go back to school. But yeah just driving around lately I don't think I've ever seen so many hiring signs all at once. Who wants to go back to work at any of these shit places though? They laid off tons of people, and then expect them to come back to work for poverty wages and terrible treatment. Good luck with all that. The situation will probably persist until summer when all the teens are available to work.
I'm not so sure about that. Grocery store near me has been hiring people at 17/hr for a year now. Even my local hardware store is taking anyone who can lift 30 lbs at 14-15/hr.

Meanwhile, it seems like every seasonal restaurant is in the papers whining about how they won't be able to open because no one wants to work for minimum wage and verbal abuse.
 

Trouble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,125
Seattle-ish
I'd burn that burger place to the ground without a second thought.

Fuck around and find out.
burn-it-down-pookie-fire.gif
 

CheeseConey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,995
All those people out there against livable wages are sure going to miss their beloved food. After working at a restaurant for so long I have all the patience in the world for other restaurant workers. I came home many times exhausted and wondering if it was worth it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,700
Siloam Springs
Might as well ask, please understand that this is a genuine question asked so I can better know how to argue against those who push back against wage increases.

Wages should universally rise, how do I gel that with the cost for small businesses like the one described in this article snippet, where to increase their wages would involve passing the cost off to customers? We're not talking about obscenely decadent wealth, we are talking about small business owners. Fighting against wage stagnation would be not a thing were it not completely correct, but it feels like the only answer here would be everyone's wages increases dramatically in adjustment with inflation so that a small group of parasites don't hoard wealth, and they're not going to do that when they're allowed to bribe whoever they want to fix the law in their favour.

How can I be a better, more informed supporter of the workforce?


If wages increase and business owners lose their business, then I would use their own defense against them, "Guess they needed a better business plan and should pull themselves up by their bootstraps." I'm happy to attack their beliefs, not them personally.

We need a livable minimum wage. I have heard pro capitalist's tell me it was never meant to be a livable wage (OK they need to re-learn the history of the introduction of the minimum wage during the great depression).

You cannot convince them if they do not want to have a change of heart. They (those on the right) want to keep the poor, the lesser classes, women, and minorities down. They will give you every anti-empathetic answer they can and grin while doing it.

Don't lose sleep about not convincing them (those on the right). Let's work on those that are left of right but still not on board with better wages for all. Describe a situation where they may need to work a minimum wage job, then ask them, are you OK with the current minimum wage. If they think the current minimum wage is OK, they're lying or have no concept of how money works in our society.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,616
Might as well ask, please understand that this is a genuine question asked so I can better know how to argue against those who push back against wage increases.

Wages should universally rise, how do I gel that with the cost for small businesses like the one described in this article snippet, where to increase their wages would involve passing the cost off to customers? We're not talking about obscenely decadent wealth, we are talking about small business owners. Fighting against wage stagnation would be not a thing were it not completely correct, but it feels like the only answer here would be everyone's wages increases dramatically in adjustment with inflation so that a small group of parasites don't hoard wealth, and they're not going to do that when they're allowed to bribe whoever they want to fix the law in their favour.

How can I be a better, more informed supporter of the workforce?
here is a crazy idea, maybe the US has to many restaurants in the US, that some number may need to fail to hit the proper supply demand point to be able to raise wages.
 

CrunchyFrog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,455
Might as well ask, please understand that this is a genuine question asked so I can better know how to argue against those who push back against wage increases.

Wages should universally rise, how do I gel that with the cost for small businesses like the one described in this article snippet, where to increase their wages would involve passing the cost off to customers? We're not talking about obscenely decadent wealth, we are talking about small business owners. Fighting against wage stagnation would be not a thing were it not completely correct, but it feels like the only answer here would be everyone's wages increases dramatically in adjustment with inflation so that a small group of parasites don't hoard wealth, and they're not going to do that when they're allowed to bribe whoever they want to fix the law in their favour.

How can I be a better, more informed supporter of the workforce?

The questions then are ultimately:
1. Should that business even exist in the first place if its solvency depends on the insolvency of its labor force?
2. Is there enough value in forcing the government to prop up/subsidize this business model otherwise?

IMHO for most restaurants the answer to both is no. As someone said above, if a business owner feels they have to maintain poverty wages to stay afloat, ultimately burdening employees for the sake of a success in which they themselves have no real stake, then they either should apply for a loan or they just shouldn't be around. If the boss's employees can't make enough to make rent, then the boss shouldn't either. And for macro-economic benefit, let's face it, the restaurant industry is not exactly starved for competition/variety in the vast majority of the U.S. You might make the argument for cultural significance in a few cases, but honestly not most. And even in those cases, it's the business owner who should bear the financial/bureaucratic process burden of keeping that place afloat, not the employees.

Now thinking more generally there's something to be said for different CoL in different parts of the country, which is why I think a lot of suggestions for raised minimum wage are too high for some rural areas. But at the very least minimum wage not changing for 15+ years is bananas given the growth of the larger economy, and CoL everywhere has long since outstripped it across the board, inflation or no.
 
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bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
After swimming my wife stopped at a local Wendy's the other day to pick up some food for the kids and it was closed for that shift because they didn't have enough employees.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,000
Terana
turns out a system that relies on wage slaves isn't workable. surprise

all jobs ALL JOBS deserve dignity and a real living wage.

the twisted machinations of people that dare to look down upon anyone making a living doing anything service related never sat right with me and that's even less so now after a pandemic. you can fuck right off.

if you think it's so easy, come work at a fast food place for a month and then tell me it's easy work deserving of minimum pay.

life's too short and precious to waste it on that bullshit. that's the truth
 
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Dec 30, 2020
15,221
The "I don't care if people want to work for my insultingly low wages, I want them to be forced to work for my insultingly low wages" is creeping me out more than the "sexy Skarsgard Pennywise" topic, and without the added benefit of sexy clowns, just insulting clowns.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
It sucks. Workers aren't paid enough to deal with the amount of shit that they get from customers.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
Let's also remember a business with a bad business model that relies on exploiting their labor closing down will open up space for something else to take it's place. Especially if it was filling a niche that has now opened up. If the one indian restaraunt in town closes, that makes it easier for someone else to open up another one since now the competition is gone.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
Where are all those robots they swore up and down would replace us if we demanded more money? Just use the robots. Y'all got the robots, right?
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
As someone who's been a waiter, it's amazing how people just treat people in the service industry as less than human
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,643
I've worked in restaurants, fuck doing that ever again. I see the places near me hiring starting at 17 an hour and a signing bonus and the help wanted signs have been up for weeks lol, hell if I had to choose between that and making 15 an hour working from home of course I would take the lower pay, who wants to break their back, get burned, get yelled at in a hot kitchen for 10+ hour shifts. I really hope Covid for all the terrible stuff it put us through has made people wake up and has made us turn a corner with how we look at work, and it's on each of us to make sure the message is sent and sticks.
 

Tokyo_Funk

Banned
Dec 10, 2018
10,053
Ex chef/server/bar worker here. Was glad to get out of the hospitality industry. Sexually assaulted/harrasses several times, abused to no end, threatened and blackmailed, accused of things I did not do, poor wages, abusive customers, long thankless hours and obnoxious chefs.

Never looked back getting out.
 

Primus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,824
Our local Fox affiliate here (KHON-2 Hawaii) ran a hit piece on last night's news on this very subject. Interviewed a bunch of "business lobbyists" and the like who all blamed the unemployment money and stimulus and lazy workers, not that restaurants are still only allowed at 30-50% capacity (varies by county) along with the other aforementioned issues with worker exploitation and toxicity.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
Yup. My cousins recently graduated highschool and applied for several restaurant positions to be waiters and chefs. They were turned down for no experience but offered dishwasher and busboy positions. They refused because the pay is shit and don't believe in the start at the bottom and work to the top mentality if the wages are shitty.
Having worked my way up from dishwasher to prep cook to line cook before, there's no way you can walk in on day 1 as a chef. Seems like an insane mindset to have. Same with wait staff.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
It's absolutely insane to me that paying servers less than minimum wage is somehow legal because "they might make more in tips, if the customers feel like it or whatever."
I don't think this is how it works. If they're making less than minimum wage even with tips, the employer needs to make up the difference so they always make minimum wage. The job is so popular because they make more than minimum wage.
On the other hand, being a line cook fucking suuuuuuuuucks.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,088
UK
But what happens when they raise their wages and don't see an increase in profit to justify it, even though none of it should have to be justified and, innately, everyone needs to be paid a fair wage to live in these countries in this century.

Is the answer just that they close down? Because they stopped engaging in the same worker exploitation that keeps everyone else alive? How do we overcome this on its fundamental level? How do towns without the same level of business as larger cities pay the same wages?

I need to stress again that I am not trying to argue against fair wages for all employees. I want to understand this on a technical level that I can cleanly argue how things can improve, rather than just that they should.

I guess maybe a more pertinent question would be: business owners like this, are they lying to me? Is this something they could easily survive, even if it were just them increasing their wages?
They are mostly lying to you and have profit motive more than anything. For example, restaurants have improved in business since increasing minimum wage in NYC from 2018. They can eat the price increases to products because consumers, especially when on higher minimum wage, can afford them.

"How do towns without the same level of business as larger cities pay the same wages?"

www.nelp.org

New York City's $15 Minimum Wage and Restaurant Employment and Earnings

After five years of minimum wage increases, New York City's restaurant industry continues to thrive, outpacing national growth in employment, annual wages, and number of establishments.

Restaurants in Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens, and Staten Island have seen particularly strong job and wage growth, despite lacking some of the advantages that Manhattan enjoys—such as high spending by tourists and generally higher-income patrons. For example, the number of full-service restaurants in the boroughs outside Manhattan rose more than three times as fast as the number of Manhattan eateries from 2013 to 2018.​
By every measure charted in this report (jobs, number of restaurants, and average wages) the other boroughs have exceeded national performance over the past five years for both full- and limited-service restaurants. For limited-service restaurants, Manhattan well-exceeded national performance in jobs, number of outlets, and wage growth for such establishments, and full-service restaurants in Manhattan fared roughly as well as the national averages for jobs, number of restaurants, and wage growth in this category of establishments over this period.​
Compared to 12 large cities around the country that did not have any minimum wage increases from 2013-18, New York City's restaurants generally have seen stronger job growth. New York City's experience is consistent with the latest research focusing on the food services industry in large cities where there have been large minimum wage increases—no negative employment effects and sizable average wage gains for restaurant workers.
...

The healthy overall state of the industry as indicated by its impressive growth in recent years shows that most restaurants have found effective ways to adapt to the rise in the minimum wage. In part, this has been accomplished by slight restaurant price increases, averaging less than three percent a year since the minimum wage started to rise. The clear uptick in restaurant prices compared to the five years before 2014 shows that many restaurateurs have been modestly marking up menu prices.
This report shows that the strength of the restaurant industry's sustained growth provides support for New York to eliminate its subminimum wage for tipped workers. Under current law, restaurant owners are permitted to pay tipped workers a lower cash wage than the overall State minimum wage, provided that tips received by such tipped workers bring the total earnings for each worker to the statutory minimum wage level.​
Seven states, among them California, Minnesota, Oregon, and Washington, require restaurants and other employers of tipped workers to pay their workers the State minimum wage. Restaurants in these states have been thriving and there is no evidence that the absence of a lower tipped-credit wage harms the industry overall or lessens tips for affected workers.
 

Sten_Monkey

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 22, 2021
22
Tip culture annoys me. It is good to see people here slamming employers who don't pay their staff min wage in favor of tips.
 

ManaBeast

Alt account
Banned
May 4, 2021
28
I kinda want to work at my local BBQ place because it smells so damn good.

The work culture that I've always heard of is preventing my application though.
 

MrBS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,207
Every year or two I'll see an industry funded ad campaign in Australia along the lines of 'hey lets not abuse retail staff' and I'm reminded that this still happens. I do not miss retail work. At all.

It's doubly frustrating when I consider that a good chunk of the workforce is retail or customer facing not to mention people would have had a job like that at some point in their lives so you abuse retail staff so you can go right back to your own job and be abused by others? I wish self awareness was a thing.
 

Wanace

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,008
Small business owners like that baker in Montana need a different line of work if their margins are so razor thin. Or they just need to do all the work themselves

The market won't support a $6 cinnamon roll so go out of business instead of looking fot slave labor.
 

SpaceBridge

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,754
I was a front of house manager (basically ran the dining room) for a local Toronto eatery for 2 years. The job was stressful and thankless pre covid but we were so busy with line ups that we barely noticed. When the pandemic hit, and restaurants closed upper management fired everyone (so as to qualify for support). On the last evening we were open, the servers and cashiers had been terminated already and I was left alone to run everything. Meanwhile upper management and chefs were on a conference call which I over heard. They announced on the call we were closing next day but were giving all general managers (not me or the servers) a $1000 bonus to survive on until support kicked in for them. The rest of us we were left to fend for ourselves.

We eventually reopened in July with a ton of new health guidelines in place like 15 min cleanings, make, capacity control and reduced staffing. Basically 2 staff to run a lunch or dinner peak. The amount of abuse we got from customers complaining about capacity and spacing and masks was ridiculous. In addition a lot of abuse and pressure from corporate to upsell and sign customers up to an online app (we already had Uber and doordash and etc). It was worse then before, because although we were less busy, the amount of crown control and cleaning and being short staffed was stressful.

Once again we were all terminated when the 3rd wave hit and Toronto was forced back into lockdown. I won't be going back and decided to go back into retail management because even though retail has its challenges I've never had to deal with that Much customer abuse before.

oh and we were paid minimum plus tips which dropped drastically and now upper management got a cut on the tips. I secretly hope they went out of business.
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,861
I've always done my hardest to avoid food service. Had a job as a bell attendant 2 years back now where I was forced into doing the room service for our restaurant next door because both business's were understaffed. Between the unstable schedule, too many duties(turned out I was also the valet, pool attendant, trash and drink station attendant) and late hours I lasted about 2 months before I had to resign due to a near nervous breakdown. Never again.
Worse part was the restaurant was a separate building so I have to bring the food on a cart across an uneven parking lot
 

Dogo Mojo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,155
Working service jobs sucked to hell before Covid, the pandemic just made things 10X worse with customers treating people in these industries even more like dog shit. Covid also pulled the curtain back a bit exposing that a lot of quality, well paying jobs that do not require high skill can be done straight from home.
 

SpaceBridge

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,754
Working service jobs sucked to hell before Covid, the pandemic just made things 10X worse with customers treating people in these industries even more like dog shit. Covid also pulled the curtain back a bit exposing that a lot of quality, well paying jobs that do not require high skill can be done straight from home.

Yeah, white privileged came back with a vengeance once restaurants reopened and made up for lost time with accelerated abuse and servitude expectations.
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,228
It would be interesting to see how it recovers in areas where restaurant workers get the BS low wage with the expectation of tips to bring it higher and where they're actually paid minimum wage + tips. And then another comparison where they make higher than the federal minimum wage. In my city, restaurant workers make city min wage (edit: originally I said it was 15 but its not 15 until 2024, starting in July for small businesses it is 12.15 but places like Target are already hiring at 15), so while people fucking suck, my friends who have worked in restaurants say its not that much worse than other forms of retail.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
The industry happily laid off and furloughed millions without batting and eye, fully expecting them to instantly materialize wanting the same job for the same wage and worse conditions as soon as it was convenient for them to reopen. Not even remotely concerned for their workers' well-being or what they might want.

Like another poster said on this thread, they don't want employees, they want servants.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Working service jobs sucked to hell before Covid, the pandemic just made things 10X worse with customers treating people in these industries even more like dog shit. Covid also pulled the curtain back a bit exposing that a lot of quality, well paying jobs that do not require high skill can be done straight from home.
What are these quality, well-paying jobs that do not require high skill and can be done straight from home? I'm genuinely interested, as I have not really come across many of them.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,375
Kind of curious to find out how many service/retail workers used the pandemic to find better jobs, pick up blue collar skilled labor, or go back to school. But yeah just driving around lately I don't think I've ever seen so many hiring signs all at once. Who wants to go back to work at any of these shit places though? They laid off tons of people, and then expect them to come back to work for poverty wages and terrible treatment. Good luck with all that. The situation will probably persist until summer when all the teens are available to work.
I'm a discarded retail worker who's going back to school for computer science. I worked at the same place for 15 years, had made just over $15/hr as of a couple years ago, then got tossed in the trash because a Karen called corporate to complain about an order I put in for her. Retail is trash.

Also until I was out of work and actually healing, I didn't realize the full extent of the damage all those years did to my body. It was Lowes so it was a combination of manual labor and sales.
 

SpaceBridge

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,754
The industry happily laid off and furloughed millions without batting and eye, fully expecting them to instantly materialize wanting the same job for the same wage and worse conditions as soon as it was convenient for them to reopen. Not even remotely concerned for their workers' well-being or what they might want.

Like another poster said on this thread, they don't want employees, they want servants.

100% this. They demand loyalty while they give none back. When when we did come back they didn't care about the health risks. Upper management would threaten staff to come back even if they called in sick... which during a pandemic is insane.
 
I'm default skeptical of small business owners crying that they can't afford to pay people a livable wage. I've seen too many small businesses that do in fact make enough money to pay employees what they deserve, but the owner would prefer to make bank and stuff every last cent away into their private account.

The truth is, MANY small businesses have low operating costs, especially restaurants. They have always been able to pay people more. They're just parasites exploiting poverty.
 

Milk

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,802
the past year has been very eye opening for many people i think. life is too short to endure what retail and restaurant workers deal with, even during pre-pandemic times.

even if you ignore the wages, customers get to treat you like shit and you can't retaliate or you end up in trouble. it's turned up to eleven with the most entitled, anti-mask covid disbelievers bringing a deadly disease with them, nevermind all the people who work fairly cushy remote deskjobs taking to social media and saying "wow, this pandemic has been great for me! i've saved money and things have been great! shame about all the death tho..."

get the hell out of those industries.
The past year sure has made me reconsider not pursuing further education. All the talk about how working from home is so comfy and amazing has been draining to read as someone in retail.