Dragon Ball's True Genre: At the very least, come learn about Far East pop culture!

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

One of my favorite threads on the internet comes from Kanzenshuu and a user known as Kunzait_83, who I now know quite well.
He broke down (no pun intended) the history, influences, and stylistic origins of the popular Japanese series Dragon Ball in a way that, when you really think about it, is actually downright pathetic. Not for him but for the fanbase. As he stresses over and over, nothing he presents here is obscure information, and the internet makes it even easier to find. And yet loads of Dragon Ball and anime fans at large would be left completely dumbstruck at everything mentioned within.

Dragon Ball's True Genre: We Need to Talk about Wuxia • Kanzenshuu

www.kanzenshuu.com

The topic title is key here though:

Genre.

That's predominantly what we're going to be focusing on here. Genre: definitions, conventions, history, historical context, and so forth. Specifically (of course, obviously) Dragon Ball's genre. I doubt I'll be blowing too many minds or rousing too much in the way of controversy when I note that Dragon Ball has easily one of the single most dysfunctionally bizarre fandoms (specifically on the North American side of things) of damn near anything one can think up. I've been in more than my share of weird fandoms for weird shit my whole life, and I've been in this particular one for a decent chunk of time: trust me, this one's up there.

And quite frankly, this is a topic - that of genre - that I personally find to be at the heart of a MASSIVE amount of the modern day Dragon Ball fandom's many, many freakishly bizarre quirks and idiosyncrasies. Which is part of why we're gonna be spending. A. Fucking. LOT. Of time. Unwrapping Dragon Ball's genre. And as the topic title denotes, Dragon Ball's ACTUAL genre. Because that I feel is where so much of the heart of the dysfunction at the core of Dragon Ball's modern day (and by modern day I mean from roughly 1997/1998-ish or thereabouts and onward) North American fanbase initially stems forth from.

I think we can all agree that among the most important basic details to know about any given creative work of fiction is its genre. Before anyone sits down to discuss say... The Godfather, everyone knows that we're settling in to discuss an epic mob/crime drama. Same goes for The Shining: we all know we're talking horror. On a very baseline, brainstem nature, genre is crucial. Genre is key. Classifying a given work's genre sets the tone for almost everything that's bound to follow in terms of discourse regarding the work itself.

So... very quickly, off the cuff, off the top of everyone's heads here, what is Dragon Ball's genre?

*Typical canned responses*

"Dragon Ball is Shonen!"

Bzzzzt! Wrong. Shonen isn't actually a genre: its a target demographic (that of middle school-age boys). Any other takers?

"Dragon Ball is an Action Cartoon!"

That's... closer. But also EXTREMELY vague. There's a much more specific, tangible answer that covers everything that Dragon Ball represents under a single word.

"Wait a second... that can't be right. EVERYTHING that DB encompasses in a SINGLE word? But Dragon Ball is such a weird hodgepodge of disparate things: fantasy, sci fi, martial arts, ancient myth, dopey gag manga... how do you cram ALL of that into just one single word?"

Not only is there a single genre label that covers EVERYTHING that defines Dragon Ball as Dragon Ball, its also one of the oldest ever genres in the entire history of fiction. One of the oldest and one of the broadest-reaching and encompassing in terms of media that its invaded and stylistic tones it has taken on. And frankly I think its fair to say that understanding this genre is necessary and key in order to truly understand Dragon Ball – certainly to understand its cultural frame of reference - at all on a basic-level.

So now I'm going to say something that I DO think will probably rile controversy: I think that in not understanding the fundamentals of Dragon Ball's actual genre, I think that a VAST majority of Dragon Ball's modern day Western fanbase doesn't really understand the series itself to a certain degree. Which is sad for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that A) neither Dragon Ball nor its actual genre are exactly rocket science and B) this genre is and long has been the FARTHEST thing from super underground and niche (it WAS among Westerners at one point, but that hasn't been the case for more than 15 years now) especially all the more so now today in this hyper-connected and globalized world where everything is a Google or Wiki search away.

Yes I think that the root of this dysfunction runs MASSIVELY deep in the core of this fanbase. How deep? I distantly recall one of the most glaringly incorrect and misunderstood things I ever heard said about this series was something to the basic effect of (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here) "Its very easy for most people to forget that Dragon Ball is an anime because there's nothing particularly Japanese or Asian about it at all."

One might immediately guess that that came from some awful dub-based discussion, but that'd be incorrect: that came directly from VegettoEX "Mr. Dragon Ball" himself right from one of his old podcasts.

Truth be told that statement IS sort of half-based in truth: there's NOT whole lot that's specifically Japanese running at the core of Dragon Ball's storytelling roots. But Asian? Oh this is as Asian a genre as they conceivably come.

The genre of course, as the thread title plainly gives away, is Wuxia. Which is a very, very, VERY Chinese genre, making Dragon Ball a bit of cultural cross-pollination.

So: here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna talk Wuxia in this thread. Or rather to start with, I'm gonna talk. A. LOOOOOT. About Wuxia. Because frankly there's an ungodly lot to discuss, because this is a genre with as dense a history behind it as they get.

And no one else is raising this topic anywhere else in DB fandom despite how GLARINGLY apparent it is that this topic ought to be raised and is stupidly long overdue being properly examined. I didn't want to be the person responsible for "unpacking" any of this for the wider Dragon Ball community for numerous reasons (that I may or may not delve into as we get deeper into this) but its been made apparent to me in a few recent discussions I've had that no one else is going to bust this chestnut open.

I've got the time to spare, so fuck it: Basic Wuxia 101 For Dummies it is. And its coming to you all courtesy not from someone who's actually... you know, smart, or at least someone who's had some actual semblance of formal training and study in Chinese culture, history, or linguistics; no, your teacher here instead is an aging dork who learned just about everything he ever knew about this genre largely from ratty VHS tapes with horrendous subtitles, obtained via growing up around a ton of stoners and junkies in a seedy neighborhood over 25 years ago.

Yep, nothing can POSSIBLY go awry from this.

As a token of my enthusiasm for this topic however, this isn't going to just be the usual rambling, wordy nonsense typical of one of my ancient old diatribes on here from back in the day. Oh no, we're going a few extra miles here: liberally scattered throughout are numerous high resolution images and animated gifs taken from throughout quite literally my entire lifetime's worth of accumulated Wuxia media. I've gone this extra step of including these for numerous reasons:

First off they MASSIVELY dress up what would otherwise be an absolutely insufferably boring lecture of an info-dump session.

Secondly they act as handy visual aids that at times save me from having to needlessly spend more text describing shit I can just as easily show.

Thirdly, because of how tragically, obscenely under-discussed any of this currently is in present day DB fandom: I want to hammer home with the use of LOTS of media exactly how far reaching this stuff actually goes so that A) it gets across how directly under your noses this whole time a lot of this stuff has always been (because frankly one of the single most infuriating aspects of this whole topic is seeing it get routinely swept aside unknowingly, having something that is so MASSIVE across global mainstream media be senselessly disregarded within all discussion for so globally mainstream a work of media for no real justifiable reason), and B) so that some random jackass can't derail the discussion with pointless disbelief.

"I never heard no one on any DB forum I've ever visited talk about Wuxi-whatever, so how do I know you're not just making all this up?"

Pictures're worth a thousand words. Moving, animated ones probably that many millions more. So don't just take the word of some ranting, long-winded jackass on some forum somewhere such as myself as gospel: I've brought along with me countless bundles of hard evidence to back up each and every claim I'll be making throughout this bulimia of text.

So without further ado, lets get this underway.

It also reflects an interesting phenomenon I genuinely hadn't recognized before: the fact that anime has so totally replaced kung fu/martial arts movies in Western nerddom's wider consciousness.
My only point of contention is the terminology used. While the broadstrokes are correct, the "actual" correct term would be xuanhuan ("mysterious fantasy") which describes martial arts fantasy combined with foreign influences.

But I do appreciate the thread greatly. It really doubled down on my general frustration on how people understand this series and just how much damage the 90s dub did to the Western perception of it considering it came from an era where children shows couldn't even use terms like "Heaven" or "halo" because of religious connotations, which begs the question of how a show as gratuitously Daoist/Buddhist with so many references to Christian mythology (all of it tongue-in-cheek) was even able to air. And obviously it's because we fucked it up. We still understand the show well enough, but we don't really understand it. And that's fucking sad for a show as simple to understand as Dragon Ball!

In other words, more went into Dragon Ball than just "Journey to the West." And far less of DC and Marvel comics influenced it than you think. As in "probably nothing." There's an entire continent's worth of movies, literature, and comics we simply ignore, and it's crippled our ability to even understand some of the pillars of modern anime.

Anyway, it's a pretty epic thread that gets way too overlong, and it's very hard on internet data caps because of the sheer number of gifs and images, but if you can find the time please read it!

If nothing else, it's a great read on Chinese, Hong Kong, Taiwanese, and Japanese pop culture in the lead up to the present, as well as aspects of Western nerd culture that are all but forgotten today.

It's Vegeta's technique!

Mekanos · Jul 23, 2021

I've read this thread before, it's a pretty great summary of the series' undeniable Wuxia roots. It's a very long thread but worth the time of anybody who considers themselves a Dragon Ball fan.

Vex · Jul 23, 2021

I'm just tryna figure out where that last gif is from? That shit looks dope af.

It says "yuli ban" which returns some... Interesting results in google?

Edit: Oh fuck I just realized that's YOUR name XD

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Not just a Dragon Ball fan, but anime fan in general. Especially if you like Hokuto no Ken and Yu Yu Hakusho and noticed similarities with Dragon Ball but could never place what they were. Heck, even Avatar: The Last Airbender , Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Shenmue, and Mortal Kombat.

BigDes · Jul 23, 2021

Yeah op if you could put in where those gifs/pics are from that would be rad. Cause they all look sweet

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Vex said:
I'm just tryna figure out where that last gif is from? That shit looks dope af.

It says "yuli ban" which returns some... Interesting results in google?

Edit: Oh fuck I just realized that's YOUR name XD

I assure you those results will become more interesting over time.
As for where these gifs come from, various wuxia movies.
Storm Riders is a classic!

As is Zu: Warriors from Magic Mountain

wins2 · Jul 23, 2021

If anyone wants to take a look at a Wuxia-style show you can also watch thunderbolt fantasy on crunchy roll. It uses puppets to tell its story.

Vex · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:

Yooooooooo. This is ticking all the right boxes for me. That is so sick wtf haha!

Why did they stop making movies like this? This is so anime and cool! When I think "wuxia" I think sky dancing. Much slower choreography. Very floaty. Not THIS!?

Yuli Ban said:

Omg!!!

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Oh, the big one! The one I love the most:

This guy?

Ever wonder why he's so effeminate and gender-bending?

It's because he's literally from a trans archetype.

Dongfang Bubai - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dongfang Bubai, literally "Invincible East", is a fictional character in the wuxia novel The Smiling, Proud Wanderer by Jin Yong. He is the leader of the Sun Moon Holy Cult (日月神教; Rì Yuè Shén Jiào), an "unorthodox" martial arts sect. In his quest to dominate the wulin (martial artists' community), he castrated himself to fulfil the prerequisite for learning the skills in a martial arts manual known as the Sunflower Manual (葵花寶典; Kuíhuā Bǎodiǎn), and became a formidable martial artist after mastering those skills. His castration and supreme prowess in martial arts make him one of the most memorable characters in Jin Yong's wuxia universe even though he appears in only one chapter of the novel. His name has also become virtually synonymous with homosexuality and LGBT sexual orientations in Chinese popular culture

Dongfang Bubai is one of the main villains from classic Wuxia novel The Smiling Proud Wanderer, and one of the all time most iconic and influential Wuxia characters of the last hundred years easily, to the point where characters that are essentially Bubai knockoffs are effectively their own archetype all unto themselves at this point

Basically the Bubai character-type - as is the case with Bubai his/herself (Bubai is a castrated male who is effectively transgendered; and is thus almost always played in films and TV shows by a female actress, and it often tends to be a career-defining breakthrough role for most Chinese actresses who are cast in it) - tends to be a ruthless, feared, all-powerful martial artist who is head of a vast organization/network of fighters that are fanatically devoted to him/her and who are treated in turn as expendable pawns to be casually and thoughtlessly slaughtered by their master for their slightest failures. This villain-type is also very androgynous and effete/haughty in their appearance and mannerisms, having a calm facade masking a twisted inner-psychopathy, is usually deathly pale or albino in hair and/or skin color, and prone to fighting with lethal piercing fingertip attacks.

As noted, Dongfang Bubai embodies all of these characteristics (and a whole lot more) and was so iconic and popular that scores upon scores of Wuxia emperor-type villains have emulated him/her for many, many years after. Freeza of course being clearly no exception; and if he isn't based directly on Bubai his/herself, then most certainly on any one of the countless Bubai clones that have cropped up throughout scores of Wuxia films/books/TV shows/comics/other anime & manga in his/her wake. Or he's just based more generally/broadly on just that villain "type" overall rather than from any one specific example of it.

Bubai even has one particular spinoff film starring him/her as the main protagonist where his/her martial arts cult gets involved in all sorts of global political intrigue among various conquering empires, culminating in him/her having to fight against Spanish Conquistadors during the climax. Its every bit as bugfuck insane a concoction as it sounds: so of course it was from the early 90s.

Another character who is basically Bubai? Yuda from Hokuto no Ken

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Vex said:
Yooooooooo. This is ticking all the right boxes for me. That is so sick wtf haha!

Why did they stop making movies like this? This is so anime and cool! When I think "wuxia" I think sky dancing. Much slower choreography. Very floaty. Not THIS!?

This is actually one reason why some people couldn't accept Dragon Ball as being part of this tradition. "Wuxia" is most well known in the USA for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Not films like Master of the Flying Guillotine or apparently your new favorite movie, Storm Riders.

NuclearCake · Jul 23, 2021

I stumbled onto Kunzait's writeup on Kanzenshuu years ago and it was one of the most impressive writeups I've ever read.

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

VDenter said:
I stumbled onto Kunzait's writeup on Kanzenshuu years ago and it was one of the most impressive writeups I've ever read.

It's also melancholic in many ways because he's not wrong; most of what he wrote IS easy to find on the internet. And yet... no one bothered. A whole generation of fans of anime grew up thinking Dragon Ball Z was either some super-unique show that created all of its most well-known tropes (it's certainly unique, I'll give it that) or that it took Journey to the West and then spent the rest of its run ripping off Superman. Not that Western fantasy/superhero stories don't have their analogues; they do, and it's telling that certain tropes and fascinations are universal. But everything that makes Dragon Ball what it is is part of an incredibly fascinating tradition and yet it's so unknown to people nowadays.

What's even weirder is that it WASN'T unknown as recently as 30 years ago. In the early 90s, Dragon Ball fans were almost certainly also going to be the same people who played Mortal Kombat and watched Golden Harvest movies. In that same environment, they'd have been the ones behind making shows like Xiaolin Showdown and Avatar: The Last Airbender a decade later. And yet the very term "wuxia" and other terms like "xianxia" and "xuanhuan" and "jianghu" are just utterly unknown to people here these days.

What's sadder is that our current political climate makes people more likely to push back against learning this. Just say that Dragon Ball comes from a Chinese genre of martial arts fiction and "CCP shill" and "Tiananmen Square" mentions start up almost immediately (even when you stress most of this came from Hong Kong and Taiwan). You'd think this would enrich people's understanding of fighting-oriented anime (the half-mythical "battle shonen" category) and make them interested in seeing how we got here, but sometimes you just come up against self-enforced ignorance...

I'd love to see someone make a big video essay on this. Someone like, I dunno, Super Eyepatch Wolf, who has a massive audience.

entrydenied · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
Oh, the big one! The one I love the most:

This guy?

Ever wonder why he's so effeminate and gender-bending?

It's because he's literally from a trans archetype.

Dongfang Bubai - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dongfang Bubai is one of the main villains from classic Wuxia novel The Smiling Proud Wanderer, and one of the all time most iconic and influential Wuxia characters of the last hundred years easily, to the point where characters that are essentially Bubai knockoffs are effectively their own archetype all unto themselves at this point

Another character who is basically Bubai? Yuda from Hokuto no Ken

Bubai even has one particular spinoff film starring him/her as the main protagonist where his/her martial arts cult gets involved in all sorts of global political intrigue among various conquering empires, culminating in him/her having to fight against Spanish Conquistadors during the climax. Its every bit as bugfuck insane a concoction as it sounds: so of course it was from the early 90s.

Lol. My boyfriend watches the movies featuring Brigitte Lin very often and he was just telling me the other day about the part where the westerners bowed down and shouted "Holy Dongfang Bubai" and crowned her their new god, after she showed off her skills to the invaders.

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

As for Mr. Kill You?

Tao Pai Pai meanwhile is a composite who is very closely modeled on two different but very related characters: Sheng Kuan, the main villain of the classic Jackie Chan (non-Wuxia) martial arts film Snake in the Eagle's Shadow, and Thunderleg, the main villain from the original Drunken Master (also starring Chan). Both characters were played by legendary martial arts film star Hwang Jang Lee, as both movies were filmed back to back with one another by the same director and using the exact same cast and crew across both films, which are thus regarded as companion-pieces to one another.

Tao Pai Pai's character background and role in the story is modeled on Thunderleg (who is a martial arts assassin/hitman hired to kill the main hero), while his physical appearance/character design is modeled directly after Sheng Kuan's pretty much exactly verbatim. Tao's general personality overall is basically just Hwang Jang Lee's overall iconic & charismatic villainous screen persona (he was notable for almost always playing sinister, unscrupulous, underhanded, and lethally brutal bad guys in most of his martial arts movies).

You might notice a passing resemblance

Meanwhile, most of Tao's moves and fighting techniques are a general collection of fairly over the top ridiculous Wuxia stunts common to many films throughout the genre.

Surf's up

ash32121 · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
Oh, the big one! The one I love the most:

It's because he's literally from a trans archetype.

Dongfang Bubai - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dongfang Bubai is one of the main villains from classic Wuxia novel The Smiling Proud Wanderer, and one of the all time most iconic and influential Wuxia characters of the last hundred years easily, to the point where characters that are essentially Bubai knockoffs are effectively their own archetype all unto themselves at this point

mad interesting, Dongfang Bubai also got roughly translate to Invincible in the East in my language, but they treat it more like a name than an archetype. Also yeah, if you are a SEA kid that watch enough Wuxia and TVB, most of the trope in Dragon Ball Z is pretty easy to distinguish. Maybe that's one of the reasons why Dragon Ball is not as big (it is still massive, mind you) in East Asia, as it's in NA.

TheMadTitan · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
I assure you those results will become more interesting over time.
As for where these gifs come from, various wuxia movies.
Storm Riders is a classic!

As is Zu: Warriors from Magic Mountain

Oooooh, this shit looks dope.

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Storm Riders is from 1998 at that, so its special effects are very... 90s. And yet it still hits so hard. A dream of mine is to see a good adaptation done with the level of special effects we saw with, say, Man of Steel.

The Storm Riders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NuclearCake · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
It's also melancholic in many ways because he's not wrong; most of what he wrote IS easy to find on the internet. And yet... no one bothered. A whole generation of fans of anime grew up thinking Dragon Ball Z was either some super-unique show that created all of its most well-known tropes (it's certainly unique, I'll give it that) or that it took Journey to the West and then spent the rest of its run ripping off Superman. Not that Western fantasy/superhero stories don't have their analogues; they do, and it's telling that certain tropes and fascinations are universal. But everything that makes Dragon Ball what it is is part of an incredibly fascinating tradition and yet it's so unknown to people nowadays.

What's even weirder is that it WASN'T unknown as recently as 30 years ago. In the early 90s, Dragon Ball fans were almost certainly also going to be the same people who played Mortal Kombat and watched Golden Harvest movies. In that same environment, they'd have been the ones behind making shows like Xiaolin Showdown and Avatar: The Last Airbender a decade later. And yet the very term "wuxia" and other terms like "xianxia" and "xuanhuan" and "jianghu" are just utterly unknown to people here these days.

What's sadder is that our current political climate makes people more likely to push back against learning this. Just say that Dragon Ball comes from a Chinese genre of martial arts fiction and "CCP shill" and "Tiananmen Square" mentions start up almost immediately. You'd think this would enrich people's understanding of anime and make them interested in seeing how we got here, but sometimes you just come up against self-enforced ignorance...

For sure and it does become truly depressing when you take into account that the vast majority of the DB(Z) North American fanbase isn't even interested in watching the original non-Americanized revisioned version because of head-scratching reasons, like... "the main character sounds like a grandma" or worse "the music sounds too dated and cheesy for what DBZ is!" When even that low barrier is hard for many to clear, then there is almost no reason to expect people to care about DB genre and where most of these things came from.

JonnyDBrit · Jul 23, 2021

It doesn't help most westerners' introduction to the series is the start of Z, so for them the story is conceived in terms of its immediate sci-fi elements and the broad parallel in Son Goku being an alien to a certain other pop culture icon. Sure, the influences are still there, but they're not as surface level visible as prior to Raditz

Sanka · Jul 23, 2021

It's heavily inspired by Kung Fu and Jackie Chan movies, Toriyama said so himself. I guess it gradually became more ridiculous and therefore more wuxia like but the core to me were the old Jackie Chan and other Kung Fu movies.

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Sanka said:
It's heavily inspired by Kung Fu and Jackie Chan movies, Toriyama said so himself. I guess it gradually became more ridiculous and therefore more wuxia like but the core to me were the old Jackie Chan and other Kung Fu movies.

Absolutely! In fact, Toriyama's own words go that Drunken Master is pretty much the movie that gave us Dragon Ball because he'd just watch that one all day and his editor suggested he make a kung fu comic if he loved it so much. Though I do feel some people forget just how high-impact OG Dragon Ball was.

And the fact that sci-fi elements were there all along. It was always on a futuristic Earth with high-technology, modern militaries, and androids.

Actually, that's another thing that got me about Dragon Ball. It's one of the most "80s" shows out there, and gives us a vision of 80s futurism that had nothing to do with cyberpunk. It's very much rooted in what was going on in 80s Japan too. And the most overt '80s' the show gets is something I genuinely have barely ever noticed anyone else catch when running down how 80s it is: the Freeza Force.

It was Bardock that opened my eyes to this when I unlocked his shoes in Xenoverse 2 and I realized "When did Bardock wear hot 80s jazzercise leg warmers?" And then I just suddenly realized "Wait a minute: the Saiyans literally wear Mad Max-meets-80s fitness geek uniforms!" And so does the Freeza Force by extension. Aerobics, jazzercise, roller derby, all that fun stuff, with all the genderbending flair of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. And I repeat, I've met maybe five people max in the past 20 years who recognized this (and I wasn't one of them until 2 years ago). Just more in terms of things we don't really get about one of the simplest shows TO get.

gforguava · Jul 23, 2021

Nice to see so much Dongfang Bubai talk, super fascinating character and, of course, the star of the most amazing of films: The East is Red aka Swordsman 3

And this a great read thus far, and long, just skimmed ahead a bit and they likened Jack Burton to Mr. Satan and that made me chuckle.

BlackGoku03 · Jul 23, 2021

Yeah I'm very familiar. Was sent on a rabbit hole years ago when looking up the Journey to the West origins. Was able to see some neat flicks, and one of them in the OP.

VAD · Jul 23, 2021

Great find ! Is Hisoka from HxH a Bubai? He is not castrated nor trans but he is wearing makeup and is a strong villain.

Sanka · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
Absolutely! In fact, Toriyama's own words go that Drunken Master is pretty much the movie that gave us Dragon Ball because he'd just watch that one all day and his editor suggested he make a kung fu comic if he loved it so much. Though I do feel some people forget just how high-impact OG Dragon Ball was.

And the fact that sci-fi elements were there all along. It was always on a futuristic Earth with high-technology, modern militaries, and androids.

Actually, that's another thing that got me about Dragon Ball. It's one of the most "80s" shows out there, and gives us a vision of 80s futurism that had nothing to do with cyberpunk. It's very much rooted in what was going on in 80s Japan too. And the most overt '80s' the show gets is something I genuinely have barely ever noticed anyone else catch when running down how 80s it is: the Freeza Force.

It was Bardock that opened my eyes to this when I unlocked his shoes in Xenoverse 2 and I realized "When did Bardock wear hot 80s jazzercise leg warmers?" And then I just suddenly realized "Wait a minute: the Saiyans literally wear Mad Max-meets-80s fitness geek uniforms!" And so does the Freeza Force by extension. Aerobics, jazzercise, roller derby, all that fun stuff, with all the genderbending flair of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. And I repeat, I've met maybe five people max in the past 20 years who recognized this (and I wasn't one of them until 2 years ago). Just more in terms of things we don't really get about one of the simplest shows TO get.

Something that I miss from current anime and manga is that back then it felt like japanese artists looked outward for inspiration. Dragon Ball is full of it with references to all kinds of 80s and 70s movies and other pop culture. And as you said it starts out ridiculous at least in terms of the sci-fi setting.

just_myles · Jul 23, 2021

Jademan comics:

The force of Buddha's palm
Iron marshall
Drunken Fist
Some other ones I didn't like.

pochi · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
I assure you those results will become more interesting over time.
As for where these gifs come from, various wuxia movies.
Storm Riders is a classic!

As is Zu: Warriors from Magic Mountain

This gifs are fucking awesome.
Shang Chi please!!

gforguava · Jul 23, 2021

VAD said:
Great find ! Is Hisoka from HxH a Bubai? He is not castrated nor trans but he is wearing makeup and is a strong villain.

Hard to say, the influence of the character is so pervasive that any other character being potentially inspired by them can be hard to trace. If someone said he was I wouldn't scoff at the idea but if someone else said he was inspired by the Joker, I wouldn't scoff at that either.

Sometimes it is pretty easy to see these character threads, like with Flea from Chrono Trigger's whole 'man-to-woman, power=beauty' thing, but other times it is harder to parse.

Funnily enough, there is another classic eunuch villain created the same year as Dongfang Bubai, the villain from King Hu's classic Dragon Gate Inn. Interestingly, the eunuch isn't really portrayed as being more feminine but in the remake(so after the character of Dongfang Bubai has gained prominence) Donnie Yen's version of the character is.

entrydenied · Jul 23, 2021

ash32121 said:
mad interesting, Dongfang Bubai also got roughly translate to Invincible in the East in my language, but they treat it more like a name than an archetype. Also yeah, if you are a SEA kid that watch enough Wuxia and TVB, most of the trope in Dragon Ball Z is pretty easy to distinguish. Maybe that's one of the reasons why Dragon Ball is not as big (it is still massive, mind you) in East Asia, as it's in NA.

In the original novel (published between 1967 to 1969; it was serialised in a newspaper), it was more of a title for the character that became the character's name. Not sure whether the character's real name was in the book. Basically it argues that the character has been replicated and copied so many times that it is now an archetype. I have a lot of problems with the archetype because for so long, being trans or gender performing as an opposite sex was equated to being evil, in a lot of Chinese media.

I should read the original text to see whether they explored how the character dealt with their sexual and gender identity but I don't have high hopes. Doesn't help that they died quite early into the novel and the media adaptations greatly expanded their role due to how compelling the character is.

sandyph · Jul 23, 2021

the original dragon ball was clearly Journey to the West 'inspired'.
So much that some early Chinese translation named Goku as Sun Wu Kong :D

L Thammy · Jul 23, 2021

Dragonball has also always had an influence from retro sci fi, like Godzilla movies or Ultraman. For example, Capsule Corporation might be based on Ultraseven's capsules that he would store giant monsters in (naturally the Pokeball probably comes from these as well).

sandyph said:
the original dragon ball was clearly Journey to the West 'inspired'.
So much that some early Chinese translation named Goku as Sun Wu Kong :D

His name is still written as 孫悟空 either way.

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

sandyph said:
the original dragon ball was clearly Journey to the West 'inspired'.
So much that some early Chinese translation named Goku as Sun Wu Kong :D

The name "Goku" is literally "Wukong" rendered in the Japanese tongue. It's hard to describe; I guess it's sort of like how "John," "Juan," and "Ivan" are all different forms of the same name. However it's even more than that; it's like if they were all spelled the exact same as well and it just happened that a Russian read the Latin "John" as "Ivan."

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

L Thammy said:
Dragonball has also always had an influence from retro sci fi, like Godzilla movies or Ultraman. For example, Capsule Corporation might be based on Ultraseven's capsules that he would store giant monsters in (naturally the Pokeball probably comes from these as well).

The influences are blatant across the series. After all, we get a literal Frankenstein's Monster and a not at all veiled version of the Terminator as characters

And that's what I loved about Dragon Ball: it's a pure pop cultural bonanza rooted so heavily in 1980s Japan and Toriyama's upbringing, which makes it kinda sad that so much of it is lost on us.

L Thammy · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
The influences are blatant across the series. After all, we get a literal Frankenstein's Monster and a not at all veiled version of the Terminator as characters

And that's what I loved about Dragon Ball: it's a pure pop cultural bonanza rooted so heavily in 1980s Japan and Toriyama's upbringing, which makes it kinda sad that so much of it is lost on us.

Take a moment to consider the villain origins in Z:

Saiyans + Freeza -> Extraterrestrial
Cell -> Science
Majin Buu -> Magic

Now, what are the standard origins for giant monsters like Godzilla fights...?

Mekanos · Jul 23, 2021

Sanka said:
Something that I miss from current anime and manga is that back then it felt like japanese artists looked outward for inspiration. Dragon Ball is full of it with references to all kinds of 80s and 70s movies and other pop culture. And as you said it starts out ridiculous at least in terms of the sci-fi setting.

I feel that is pretty common in a lot of genres. Formative works draw inspiration from other genres and fields, and then future installments in that genre tend to be self-referential. Like how Star Wars pulled from not just classic science fiction, but samurai movies, WW2, etc. And then a bunch of sci-fi stuff going forward just riffed on Star Wars.

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Mekanos said:
I feel that is pretty common in a lot of genres. Formative works draw inspiration from other genres and fields, and then future installments in that genre tend to be self-referential. Like how Star Wars pulled from not just classic science fiction, but samurai movies, WW2, etc. And then a bunch of sci-fi stuff going forward just riffed on Star Wars.

Heck, one of Star Wars' influences was wuxia!

I recall there's a 4-part cycle for genres:

1. Primitive - "The Great Train Robbery" (Edwin S. Porter - 1903)

This phase is usually naive, though powerful in its emotional impact, in part because of the novelty of the form. Many of the conventions of the genre are established in this phase.

2. Classical - "Stagecoach" (John Ford - 1939)

This intermediate stage embodies such classical ideals as balance, richness, and poise.
The genre's values are assured and widely shared by the audience.

3. Revisionist - "High Noon" (Fred Zinnemann - 1969)

The genre is generally more symbolic, ambiguous, less certain in its values.
This phase tends to be stylistically complex, appealing more to the intellect than to the emotions.
Often, the genre's pre-established conventions are exploited as ironic foils to question or undermine popular beliefs.

4. Parodic - "Blazing Saddles" (Mel Brooks - 1973)

This phase of a genre's development is an outright mockery of its conventions, reducing them to howling cliches and
presenting them in a comic manner.

Likewise, genres also fall into four levels of development:

1. Development, when multiple influences come together and are codified

2. Classical, when the genres boundaries become established and are pushed to their limits with common influences

3. Insularity, when the genre takes up even wider and less relevant influences, leading to a culture of purism and experimentation clashing with each other

4. Stagnation, when the genre's quality reaches its peak but the quality isn't recognized due to it no longer pushing boundaries or finding new ways to develop. Most works in that genre now are influenced by the genre itself, while experimentation is usually defined by how little it resembles the core genre while still remaining recognizable as that genre

If it sounds like I've described movie and music genres to a T, I'm not the first by far.

Ceerious · Jul 23, 2021

Vex said:
I'm just tryna figure out where that last gif is from? That shit looks dope af.

This last gfi is from Sien lui yau wan, translated in English as "A Chinese Ghost Story"

A Chinese Ghost Story (1987) ⭐ 7.4 | Action, Fantasy, Horror

1h 38m | Unrated

www.imdb.com

It's a Fantasy Wuxia film with heavy horror elements. The story itself is inspired by a popular Chinese folklore.

darz1 · Jul 23, 2021

Vex said:
Yooooooooo. This is ticking all the right boxes for me. That is so sick wtf haha!

Why did they stop making movies like this? This is so anime and cool! When I think "wuxia" I think sky dancing. Much slower choreography. Very floaty. Not THIS!?

Omg!!!

I loved Storm Riders when I was a teen but honestly the fight choreography was not great, especially compared to other martial arts films at the time. The heavy use of CGI really takes away from the spectacle that you would usually find in martial arts choreography. If I remember correctly it wasn't very successful commercially.

That's not to say it's a bad film. I actually think it's a great film. It's just very CGI heavy

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

darz1 said:
I loved Storm Riders when I was a teen but honestly the fight choreography was not great, especially compared to other martial arts films at the time. The heavy use of CGI really takes away from the spectacle that you would usually find in martial arts choreography. If I remember correctly it wasn't very successful commercially.

That's not to say it's a bad film. I actually think it's a great film. It's just very CGI heavy

Yeah, it's very CGI heavy in a time when CGI wasn't that great no matter who did it.

sir_crocodile · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
What's even weirder is that it WASN'T unknown as recently as 30 years ago. In the early 90s, Dragon Ball fans were almost certainly also going to be the same people who played Mortal Kombat and watched Golden Harvest movies. In that same environment, they'd have been the ones behind making shows like Xiaolin Showdown and Avatar: The Last Airbender a decade later. And yet the very term "wuxia" and other terms like "xianxia" and "xuanhuan" and "jianghu" are just utterly unknown to people here these days.

These terms are probably better known in the west than ever due to the rise of webnovels and the popularity of those genres in webnovels.

Thankfully there's a ton of golden harvest/shaw brothers stuff being re-released on bluray now too. Praise be to 88 films and eureka. Was able to buy genre classic Come Drink With Me a few months back which I never expected a western hidef release of.

sandyph · Jul 23, 2021

Yuli Ban said:
The name "Goku" is literally "Wukong" rendered in the Japanese tongue. It's hard to describe; I guess it's sort of like how "John," "Juan," and "Ivan" are all different forms of the same name. However it's even more than that; it's like if they were all spelled the exact same as well and it just happened that a Russian read the Latin "John" as "Ivan."

interesting, I used to read non licensed chinese translation before the official licensed japan translation was available.
so for the longest time, I though his name was wukong and only later on know that it was goku :)

Yuli Ban · Jul 23, 2021

Just some more gifs and images to distract from the 2uper news

Dragon Ball's True Genre: At the very least, come learn about Far East pop culture!

▲ Legend ▲

Knows Too Much

God and Anime

Spacenoid