• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
Screen-Shot-2021-07-07-at-9.45.58-AM.jpg
879.png


Foreword:

Please do NOT get me wrong on this topic. I do not buy into the "gAmE fReAk LiEd" garbage. Up front I'll say I'm expressing my disappointment in the Pokemon Switch games, and how Shin Megami Tensei V really puts them to shame, for reasons I'm going to outline. I know the discourse on Pokemon, especially Sword and Shield, gets tiring. I'm going to attempt to give a level-headed take on all this, as I think it's absolutely something that should be discussed.

For what it's worth, I actually bought and enjoyed Pokemon Sword, but still couldn't help but be disappointed with many aspects of it.

And now for the actual discussion:

At E3, we got the major gameplay reveal and information blowout on Shin Megami Tensei V, and still continue to now. There's daily videos uploaded that are less than a minute long on a demon, showing off some gameplay involving that demon and some explanation in Japanese about it. There was also a new trailer just released the other day, and we'll be getting info monthly in Game Informer, as well as places like Famitsu. We have seen a ton of gameplay and the game looks impressive as all hell.

Why am I comparing SMTV and Pokemon? Probably the biggest reason is that both games involve recruiting/capturing monsters that have been in the series over the course of many games, with new ones added in the latest game. Before you go thinking this is purely about "Dexit", please hear me out. While it was disappointing to hear that Sword and Shield would not have all the Pokemon return, it did make sense for it to become unsustainable at some point given the sheer number of creatures in the series. My hope when they announced that was that if they were going to only have a subset of all the Pokemon, to make the remaining ones look really good. To my disappointment, they did not do that. Most of the Pokemon only have a few animations, and while they have some for things like walking around in the Pokecamp, or following you in the DLC packs, in battle it still looks disappointing as you just have a lot of the model sliding all over the place. Some Pokemon have a unique move that they have a unique animation for, such as Cinderrace's Pyro Ball. It's a cool looking animation, as well as many of the other unique moves.

Sword and Shield's environments, while having neat ideas, do look kind of plain and don't run particularly well, even when not playing online in the Wild Area. The concept of the Wild Area is great, it just often doesn't look too good. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time harping on *that* tree, but there's plenty of things like that that one would think could just look a bit better. There are some nice looking areas in the game, one popular example being Ballonlea, having a strong art direction and good use of color. It just feels like not as much budget was put into the game in a multimillion dollar franchise.

Shin Megami Tensei V has been in development at least since 2017, when it was announced in the Nintendo Switch conference in January of that year. It was only announced just as a "Brand new Shin Megami Tensei project", and then later that year it would be announced as "Shin Megami Tensei V". The game was the first in the series using an established third party game engine, Unreal Engine 4, and the developers have spoken about how they were able to get things running much more quickly without having to create the engine themselves. There was no information on the game after that 2017 trailer until July 2020, when at a Nintendo Partner Showcase Direct out of nowhere, a trailer for the game was shown with a 2021 release date, and a simultaneous worldwide release. While there was no gameplay shown, we still got to see more footage of the game and see what it was about. At E3 2021, the game was shown again with gameplay and a release date, and there's just been more and more footage since then. The game was in development for at least four years. From my understanding, it had barely started when it was announced at the Switch conference in January 2021. That's at least four years.

From what I have been able to find, Sword and Shield took about three years, starting in 2016 after the release of Sun and Moon. The game would release in 2019. In 2018, Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee was released, but the development was seemingly separate from Sword and Shield. Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee only had Generation 1, plus the Malmetal Pokemon, but also Gen 1 was the focus of Let's Go, which kind of makes sense. I did feel that while despite the art style, visually this game looked better than Sword and Shield for the most part.

Shin Megami Tensei is a franchise that predates Pokemon, with the first game releasing in 1992. The Megami Tensei games released before that, but as far as SMT goes, it started in 1992. Kazuma Kaneko, the artist well known for the series' beautiful artwork, joined Atlus for Megami Tensei II in 1990, and then truly hit his stride starting with Shin Megami Tensei. Since then, he's been the predominant demon designer in the series, and while he has taken a backseat now, letting younger faces do the artwork, his designs still persist in SMT and Persona games today. The demons are used in SMT games, but also in Persona games, and many of the SMT spinoff series such as Devil Survivor and Devil Summoner. Kaneko has created hundreds of demons, in some cases more than one design of a single demon. For instance, there's two designs of Nue: One used in Devil Summoner 1 (the Saturn game that was ported to PSP, both never releasing in the west), and then there was a different one used for Soul Hackers and had been used ever since, still being used today. However none of the games include every single demon in the series. SMTIV and IV Apocalypse boasted a huge roster of 400+ demons, but that's still not all of them. Those games were in 2D. There's been confirmed 214 demons in Shin Megami Tensei V, which is more than Nocturne, and they are in 3D.

Pokemon Sword and Shield (with both DLCs) has a total of 667 Pokemon available. There's a total of 898 over the course of the franchise, and after both DLCs, 231 still missing. They have still managed to include a sizable chunk of the roster. I still find the biggest disappointment about it though is how the Pokemon look, both model-wise and animation-wise. I mentioned before that if they were going to cut Pokemon, I had hoped the remaining ones would end up looking a lot better as a result, and this did not happen. There's no sidestepping the fact that Pokemon is a much bigger (and more lucrative) franchise than Shin Megami Tensei. It makes tons of money, and yet the way a lot of these Pokemon look just feels cheap, for lack of a better word. That's not to say there's some impressive looking animations among them though:

5om2uvxiz5y31.gif

3b7e6d3fae552d78d68b17efcfdd05e7b32bacbb.gifv


Compare this to Shin Megami Tensei V, where it doesn't have all the demons from the entire franchise, the ones here look damn good.

tenor.gif

giphy.gif


Both franchises have different art styles. Pokemon is intended to look more cartoonish and simple, while SMT looks more detailed and grim. Even though Pokemon's art is going for a more simple look, a lot of the textures look incredibly low res, and seeing so many shifting and sliding animations in combat looks disappointing. In SMT, demons even have animations for missed or dodging attacks. In Pokemon it just shows nothing happening. Given how large of a franchise Pokemon is, I honestly expected better, and I feel like it's just getting put to shame as more and more footage of Shin Megami Tensei V comes out. While it's not fair to completely judge or write off Brilliant Diamond and Shiny Pearl, I haven't been too impressed with how those look either, but those are still works in progress and that remains to be seen when they actually release (even though I probably won't be playing them myself for a while because SMTV is out that same week lol).

I know the discourse over Pokemon Sword and Shield has been long and tiresome, and this is just more of it. I want to reiterate that I don't think the main issue with the Pokemon in that game is that a lot of them were cut from the roster, it's that how they look isn't really improved at all. Shin Megami Tensei V comes out with footage and just has things like demons doing completely unique animations for things, AND the models look a step up from their previous appearances. There was that gif I posted of the Moh Shuvuu sitting on the car swinging her legs. There's a point where they went into a cave and there's the bat-like Daimon just hanging upside down...like bats. In the latest trailer there's a part where you walk in on some kind of worshipping ceremony with a bunch of demons on their knees worshipping an Apsaras, including Pretas, Sandman, and Kodama. That's not to say there's plenty of points we have seen demons in their standard pose they have had in their artwork in previous games, but they also have a lot of animations. In the Nintendo Treehouse demo, we see Mandrakes chase Nahobino like Leevers from the Zelda series, and it looks really cool! There's a point where there's a giant Ubellurius looming in the distance, and a demon tells them "Hey you probably shouldn't go take that guy on or he'll whoop your ass.", and then they go over there and get destroyed by it.

I'm not going to pretend SMTV's framerate is good, and is probably about on the level of Pokemon SwSh in the wild area. However the big difference there is that Pokemon has so many low res textures and low detail, and still runs like that, while SMTV has a lot of higher detail, and runs like that.

I'm not here to say anything like "How can we let Game Freak get away with this?!", I'm just here to point out that Pokemon lately looks very disappointing when a franchise a lot smaller than it comes a long and just looks better. I hope other people don't read this as just being one of those "Dexit" or "gAmE fReAk LiEd" people, just throwing out a legitimate criticism of Pokemon that another game just really brings to light even further. I'm personally very much looking forward to SMTV, it's one of my two most anticipated games this year (the other being NEO: The World Ends With You). I'm still excited for Pokemon Legends Arceus, but that also exhibits a lot of the problems Sword and Shield does based on the footage we have seen so far, however like BDSP, it's not fair to judge that one until release, so I will not. I do think it's fair to say I am surprised they would show it in that state where there were things like Pokemon having very low framerate animations. I hope I've managed to get my point across here, and I'm curious to hear all of your thoughts on this.
 

OGlol

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,398
If gamefreak was given 8 years to develop each pokemon game I think it would look a lot different.
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
If gamefreak was given 8 years to develop each pokemon game I think it would look a lot different.
I agree, it probably would, but Atlus didn't have 8 years to develop SMTV. It even started development not long after the previous mainline game came out, Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse in 2016.
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,877
USA
I've always felt SMT design is just kind of... incoherent and random. I also don't think the merging makes a ton of sense. There isn't a real sense of continuity between demons even as you merge them.

I've only played smt4 though and honestly I quit it pretty early in the game because it just didn't gel with me. I probably didn't give it enough of a chance
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,201
PIT
A lot of the demon designs were redesigned into HD models when Persona 5 was in development so SMTV is taking those models I believe.
 

FTLMantis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
80
Wait, don't the two animations you called out for pokemon look great? Especially the Cinderace one? That animation was what brought me around on the specific pokemon- I love how it looks, and how it captures the over-the-top soccer anime bullshit that they're so clearly going for. SMTV looks ncie too, but if you wanted to make the case that Pokemon didn't look good this wasn't the way to go.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,461
I mean SMTV used brand new models because they don't really have proper models for most of these (and the ones they did have were the ones made new for P5). Pokémon is using the same models from the 3DS games barring new Pokémon. Additionally I'd wager the dev cycle for SMTV was way longer and as you admitted there are significantly less demons in SMTV than the number of Pokémon in sw/Sh, even without factoring dlc. Revamping animations and models would've likely had way less Pokémon and dexit was what it was regardless. It also would likely make the dlc introducing hundreds more back was no longer feasible since you'd need to do the same thing for all the new Pokémon. If Gamefreak was willing to make Pokémon games less often we could probably get a higher quality in general, but that's clearly not the business model Pokémon is going for
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
I imagine a lot of the blame falls on the grueling yearly release schedule. Atlus is much smaller and SMT orders of magnitude less lucrative, but it's also been 5 years since the last SMT came out, and that game was mostly recycled assets from a game that came out 8 years ago. There's only so much you can do in a year even if you aggressively outsource, which I understand Game Freak already does a lot of.

That's not to say that Pokemon couldn't possibly look better even with a yearly release schedule, but my totally uninformed guess is that reaching the necessary efficiency gains would require drastic overhauls to the whole development pipeline. That itself would take time and entail risk, and who wants to be the guy who disturbed the golden goose?
 

MechaJackie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,032
Brazil
Wait, don't the two animations you called out for pokemon look great? Especially the Cinderace one? That animation was what brought me around on the specific pokemon- I love how it looks, and how it captures the over-the-top soccer anime bullshit that they're so clearly going for. SMTV looks ncie too, but if you wanted to make the case that Pokemon didn't look good this wasn't the way to go.
That's not to say there's some impressive looking animations among them though:
C'mon at least skim the post before replying
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
I've always felt SMT design is just kind of... incoherent and random. I also don't think the merging makes a ton of sense. There isn't a real sense of continuity between demons even as you merge them.

I've only played smt4 though and honestly I quit it pretty early in the game because it just didn't gel with me.
Best way to think of fusion is like the periodic table of elements: Every demon has a race and a base level (in most games it works this way). There's a chart the resulting race from fusing two races. For instance, in IV, if you fuse Avian and Herald, you get Divine. Average the BASE level of the demons (every base level per race is unique), and you get the closest base level demon in the resulting race.

The designs are often bizarre interpretations of mythological creatures. For instance, if you read Mara's (one of the most famous examples) lore, you'll see that there's multiple reasons why he's a giant penis.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Well, it's important to remember that SMT rabidly recycled their PS2-era 3D models across every one of those games, and Persona 5 and SMTV are going to carry that over now that they're in HD. That's the point of iconic monster designs. You make one and then you keep using it. Shin Megami Tensei VI, were it to come out in three years, would be using Girimekhala's model with the same animations.

Shin Megami Tensei V also has a need to impress in a way Pokemon's never really had to. It has to look cool, it has to looked lived-in, it has to give personality to its demons, because those are there to attract more praise and attention in Shin Megami Tensei V's direction. It makes the game look cool as shit to have these little details, and that carries over when discussing visual presentation, something that's real important for hooking new fans.

I also think there's a level where the work load for Pokemon nobody cares about just becomes unfeasible. Like, how many manhours are gonna go into making an HD Dunsparce with all its animations?

Granted, I think holding the Literal Biggest Media Property On The Planet to a higher standard isn't anything outrageous.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
I agree, it probably would, but Atlus didn't have 8 years to develop SMTV. It even started development not long after the previous mainline game came out, Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse in 2016.

Sure, but it still had a vastly longer dev period than a Pokemon game has, and Atlus as a whole took a long time to adjust to HD development. Remember, Atlus' console output absolutely plummeted for the entirety of the last two generations, and GF just doesn't have that option.

No, I read it, but if they want to point out "cheap" animations I would love to see some examples-- and the equivalent examples of standard attacks for SMT5. Just calling out one or two nice animations from each game makes this a weird post

"Pokemon graphix sux" is a widely accepted truism at this point, so I appreciate the OP steelmanning rather than strawmanning the target of their criticism!
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
Wait, don't the two animations you called out for pokemon look great? Especially the Cinderace one? That animation was what brought me around on the specific pokemon- I love how it looks, and how it captures the over-the-top soccer anime bullshit that they're so clearly going for. SMTV looks ncie too, but if you wanted to make the case that Pokemon didn't look good this wasn't the way to go.
I said they look great, my reasoning for posting those was to be fair to Pokemon mainly.
I mean SMTV used brand new models because they don't really have proper models for most of these (and the ones they did have were the ones made new for P5). Pokémon is using the same models from the 3DS games barring new Pokémon. Additionally I'd wager the dev cycle for SMTV was way longer and as you admitted there are significantly less demons in SMTV than the number of Pokémon in sw/Sh, even without factoring dlc. Revamping animations and models would've likely had way less Pokémon and dexit was what it was regardless. It also would likely make the dlc introducing hundreds more back was no longer feasible since you'd need to do the same thing for all the new Pokémon. If Gamefreak was willing to make Pokémon games less often we could probably get a higher quality in general, but that's clearly not the business model Pokémon is going for
The frustrating thing is that they used to make mainline games less often. It wasn't always a grueling yearly release schedule. For the franchise in general, they could easily coast of spinoffs in "off" years. New Pokemon Snap came out this year, was well-received critically and sales-wise.
 

Napalm_Frank

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,735
Finland
Considering Persona 5 Royal is the best Pokemon game of all time I don't find it surprising Atlus is dabbing on Game Freak on Switch as well.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,577
I would say Pokemon Legends Arceus looks fairly more ambitious than SMTV
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
No, I read it, but if they want to point out "cheap" animations I would love to see some examples-- and the equivalent examples of standard attacks for SMT5. Just calling out one or two nice animations from each game makes this a weird post
If I didn't point that out, it would make people think I had an extreme bias against Pokemon posting cherry-picked examples while posting good examples from SMT.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
The frustrating thing is that they used to make mainline games less often. It wasn't always a grueling yearly release schedule. For the franchise in general, they could easily coast of spinoffs in "off" years. New Pokemon Snap came out this year, was well-received critically and sales-wise.

Aren't they effectively already doing that? One team works on the remakes, the other on the new mainline game. To do more they might need to switch to a massively distributed development pipeline like Ubisoft has.
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
I would say Pokemon Legends Arceus looks fairly more ambitious than SMTV
I would say that's hard to say definitively, given how little we have seen of Arceus. It looks ambitious for sure. It's an open world game, much like SMT is, but we just don't know if there's any limitations on it, how much there is to do in that world, etc.
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,271
Pokemon Sword and Shield started production in 2016, but it went into full development in September 2017 and released in 2019. These games just don't get a lot of dev time. We had to wait a long time see anything substantial from SMTV, and that game is clearly benefitting from Atlus' previous HD projects that we also had to wait a long time for.

Pokemon's whole thing is having new games on the shelf nearly every holiday.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,909
One has a giant media machine demanding regular game releases, the other has a team that had enough time to go all out, even though their game won't even be a huge seller. They're like yin and yang.

The solution here is to let Atlus work on a big Pokemon RPG spin-off and give them time to do it, while Gamefreak keeps doing their thing.
I would say Pokemon Legends Arceus looks fairly more ambitious than SMTV
Not with those visuals it doesn't. It's got the same models and animations from the other 3D Pokemon games, so how does that compare to SMTV
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
One has a giant media machine demanding regular game releases, the other has a team that had enough time to go all out, even though their game won't even be a huge seller. They're like yin and yang.

The solution here is to let Atlus work on a big Pokemon RPG spin-off and give them time to do it, while Gamefreak keeps doing their thing.

Not with those visuals it doesn't. It's got the same models and animations from the other 3D Pokemon games, so how does that compare to SMTV

I mean, SMTV is also doing this. Part of what contributed to Persona 5's lengthy development was that it had to create HD demon models that would be used in further Atlus games, as they are in SMTV.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,461
Pokemon Sword and Shield started production in 2016, but it went into full development in September 2017 and released in 2019. These games just don't get a lot of dev time. We had to wait a long time see anything substantial from SMTV, and that game is clearly benefitting from Atlus' previous HD projects that we also had to wait a long time for.

Pokemon's whole thing is having new games on the shelf nearly every holiday.
yeah I think a lot of people don't realize that "starting production" is not really the same as full development. A lot of early production is going to be conceptual planing stuff. Like FFXV technically had been in production for like a decade including it's time as VErsus XIII but most of that wasn't really full development
 
Jul 19, 2020
1,378
Rugby Warwickshire England
I said they look great, my reasoning for posting those was to be fair to Pokemon mainly.

The frustrating thing is that they used to make mainline games less often. It wasn't always a grueling yearly release schedule. For the franchise in general, they could easily coast of spinoffs in "off" years. New Pokemon Snap came out this year, was well-received critically and sales-wise.
No they really didn't make them less often, check the Japanese release dates for all the mainline games, you would see something similar to how it is now.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
I don't think there's much to discuss. SMT has 1-2 entries per generation Pokemon has 4-6. That's all you need to understand the difference between them
 

FTLMantis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
80
If I didn't point that out, it would make people think I had an extreme bias against Pokemon posting cherry-picked examples while posting good examples from SMT.
Right, but at the end of the day without data this post doesn't mean much. If we're lucky SMTV will have one base animation for each demon for magic attacks, one for physicals, and one for guns. Then one or two for special attacks. The larger number of different Pokémon all have a few different animations for the different types of attacks, and lots of them have a special animation or two as well. Why does this make SMT5 better? At the very least the comparison is meaningless.

All of this ragging on pokemon just makes me so tired. Sword and Shield was a great game that would have benefitted from another 6 months in the oven, and somehow we're still talking about it as if it was a huge mistake/indicative of a systematic failure. It's just a joke.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,909
I mean, SMTV is also doing this. Part of what contributed to Persona 5's lengthy development was that it had to create HD demon models that would be used in further Atlus games, as they are in SMTV.
I guess it's easier to overlook this in Atlus's case when their games have exponentially better visuals and waaaaaay more content. Whereas with Sword and Shield, even with the asset reuse, we still ended up with the wild area being ugly and a super barebones game. They just need way more polish than they're ever going to get with that release schedule.
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
Right, but at the end of the day without data this post doesn't mean much. If we're lucky SMTV will have one base animation for each demon for magic attacks, one for physicals, and one for guns. Then one or two for special attacks. The larger number of different Pokémon all have a few different animations for the different types of attacks, and lots of them have a special animation or two as well. Why does this make SMT5 better? At the very least the comparison is meaningless.

All of this ragging on pokemon just makes me so tired. Sword and Shield was a great game that would have benefitted from another 6 months in the oven, and somehow we're still talking about it as if it was a huge mistake/indicative of a systematic failure. It's just a joke.
double_kick_again-1.gif

c34f52e98b34307f446c0a948da0069567f516e5r1-480-270_hq.gif


I said in the OP I actually bought and enjoyed Sword, and I don't think it's a "systematic failure", I think it's just disappointing in many aspects. I'm throwing criticism at something I enjoyed, and stated in the OP that this isn't a "gAmE fReAk LiEd" thing at all.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
A lot of the demon designs were redesigned into HD models when Persona 5 was in development so SMTV is taking those models I believe.
Pokemon is reusing models as well so this is somewhat of a moot point

I think the problem with Pokemon is that if you disrupt the games schedule, everything else in the franchise gets disrupted, e.g the anime, the tcg etc
The anime is setup so that its no longer tied to the specific region of the game, TPC has been releasing lots of fairly lucrative spinoffs to fill in gaps between the RPGs, and other merchandise is never on a consistent schedule anyway
 
OP
OP
HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
I guess it's easier to overlook this in Atlus's case when their games have exponentially better visuals and waaaaaay more content. Whereas with Sword and Shield, even with the asset reuse, we still ended up with the wild area being ugly and a super barebones game. They just need way more polish than they're ever going to get with that release schedule.
I don't even mind asset reuse. I think that's totally fine and honestly should be encouraged when it just saves time, the problem is they often don't improve upon it much in Pokemon's case. In Persona 5 the demons had the red and black tint to them since they were shadows technically. There's new animations for the demons in SMTV, and the models seem to either be touched up a bit, or have different lighting to suit the game.
 

Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,110
I think Arceus will be the better comparison since it's getting more than a single year of development time.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,296
Not with those visuals it doesn't. It's got the same models and animations from the other 3D Pokemon games, so how does that compare to SMTV
Models have been upgraded this time (modeled mouths and eyes) and some animations are different or new (ie walking animation for Starly), plus there's the revamped aspect of them making contact during battle and not having a separate battle arena
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,909
I don't even mind asset reuse. I think that's totally fine and honestly should be encouraged when it just saves time, the problem is they often don't improve upon it much in Pokemon's case. In Persona 5 the demons had the red and black tint to them since they were shadows technically. There's new animations for the demons in SMTV, and the models seem to either be touched up a bit, or have different lighting to suit the game.
Yeah, the asset reuse is totally fine, that's what I meant.

They both reuse assets, it's just that one goes the extra mile on everything else while the other just doesn't anymore.
 

AquaWateria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
I understand people say that Game Freak is small and that they have to follow a yearly schedule which can damper the extent that a Pokemon game can expand. However, if those are the issues they should try to expand their studio to make it easier on them. You can't be small and try to handle a huge property like Pokemon without cutting corners. Either way, I love the games, but I just want the games to improve.
 
Jul 19, 2020
1,378
Rugby Warwickshire England
Pokemon is reusing models as well so this is somewhat of a moot point


The anime is setup so that its no longer tied to the specific region of the game, TPC has been releasing lots of fairly lucrative spinoffs to fill in gaps between the RPGs, and other merchandise is never on a consistent schedule anyway
If SwSh was delayed, they wouldn't have been able to start Journeys as it would include loads of Pokemon that they hadn't revealed
, same with the TCG it wouldn't be possible to start the gen 8 era of it, The manga would be the same and any plushies they are making would have to be stopped too.
They do depend on the main games. I am pretty confident that the main games enter a no going back peroid and they can't be delayed.
The other media if they released first would spoil the main games, making them less enjoyable for millions
 

Tsuyu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,626
Game Freak struck gold when it made Pokemon which become a cultural phenomenon in the last 2.5 decades.

They have not shown much pedigree otherwise and I will say starting from X & Y, the mainline entry has been going downhill so much so I'm not longer excited for the next entry. Arceus looked horrible too.

Pokemon was the system seller for me in the past but I'm more enticed by other Nintendo exclusives these days.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,431
I actually read all that and the easy response is that GameFreak has never been a AAA studio and Pokemon's hardcore fanbase don't care about graphics so they don't spend a significant amount of money or time worrying about making immaculate UE4 models that animate like Pixar movies.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,093
If SwSh was delayed, they wouldn't have been able to start Journeys as it would include loads of Pokemon that they hadn't revealed
, same with the TCG it wouldn't be possible to start the gen 8 era of it, The manga would be the same and any plushies they are making would have to be stopped too.
They do depend on the main games. I am pretty confident that the main games enter a no going back peroid and they can't be delayed.
The other media if they released first would spoil the main games, making them less enjoyable for millions

I mean... would it?

I remember back in Gen 4 (One of the longer dev cycles between games at 4 years from Ruby and Sapphire VS the 3 it had been before then). This certainly could be seen with the anime having to do a season in kanto with the battle frontier, but they also threw in some teasers of the upcoming generation, with Munchlax and Bonsly getting early appearances, and of course, Lucario and the Mystery of Mew. This build up hype for the new games and Lucario became a fan favourite (2nd most popular pokemon from the Google Poll held last year).

And the game certainly did need that extra time to complete the game, diamond and pearl certainly had engine issues which can be seen how slow the battles move in that game, glacial at times (One of the bigger fixes Platinum made for it).

I think they can plan the series according to a delay if the games really need them. I'm glad they have ILCA helping out with the Diamond and Pearl remakes as well which is certainly different from the norm so they have more time to focus on there own projects (Although I still expect COVID to have some effect on the next couple of games productions).

Though it's sort of hard to argue they need more time when the games and cards are pushing record breaking numbers. Helped by the pandemic for certain as much of the rest industry has as well. It's that ever want that with all those big numbers you could see the quality reflected in the games a bit more often. Hoping that will be seen with the next titles, but again, I recall this being said a lot with the pre-amble to Gen 8 as well. It's got all the Pokemon Go money now! It's gonna be the first Home Console game! Surely it'll be great, right?

Yeah... yeah...
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
If SwSh was delayed, they wouldn't have been able to start Journeys as it would include loads of Pokemon that they hadn't revealed
, same with the TCG it wouldn't be possible to start the gen 8 era of it, The manga would be the same and any plushies they are making would have to be stopped too.
They do depend on the main games. I am pretty confident that the main games enter a no going back peroid and they can't be delayed.
The other media if they released first would spoil the main games, making them less enjoyable for millions
Yeah, they do try and coincide with the games and you're right they can't show new Pokemon without the games released, but the Pokemon anime is perfectly made for adding in filler content. Not to mention I'm not sure they've even featured all the Pokemon available yet (maybe they have?) so I feel like if absolutely needed they could have filler content, filler arcs, etc

And yeah there is a point of no return where too much is coordinated around the release, but I'm saying that's only because they plan on short dev/release cycles. If they said they were going to spend x years on the next game, the other branches would plan around that later release date/window
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,474
Pokemon art design is tons stronger, which makes up for SMT having the more complex polygons imo. And even then, some comparisons are tough. Environments is where Pokemon really drops the ball.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
My main point is that I think managing Pokemon is a lot more complicated than any of us realise and to actually put our suggestions into motion, would be difficult.
So Pokemon is somehow unique among all other media franchises in that it's simply impossible for them to have technically better looking titles? There simply isn't any solution? I don't know why people keep implying this. No one says it's easy, but this is a multibillion dollar company. Gamefreak are industry vets who have been around for 3+ decades.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,369
The major assumption being made in this thread is that everything was started from scratch in 2016 at the earliest. I don't think that's true though.

I think SMT benefits from not having so many releases so often, and even with that, people still think SMTV doesn't look great as a 2021 game.

edit: Also, of everything posted in the OP, the Cinderace GIF is my favorite combination of art and animation.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,927
Kinda wish MH Stories 2 was used for the thread tbh. It's more direct of a comparison.