In Finland, kids choose whether or not to get Covid vaccine

Budi · Aug 15, 2021

After reading about this in papers, I was left wondering if other countries do something similar. I was reminded of the thread at Era where an US child was hospitalized as her parents didn't let her take the vaccine. So how is it where you live and what do you think about letting kids do the choice themselves? Though it's not quite as straightforward, a healthcare professional evaluates if the kid is mature enough to make the choice themselves. Also if the kid doesn't want to decide, then it's up to the parents.

In Finland, kids choose whether or not to get Covid vaccine

The THL's chief physician Hanna Nohynek said she hopes that as many children and young people will get the jab — to protect themselves as well as others.

yle.fi

Finland began offering Covid vaccines to children aged 12-15 on Monday and decisions about whether or not to get the jab are left up to the kids themselves.

Twelve-year-old Otto Suksi from the city of Vantaa was among the first of his age group to sign up for the vaccine.

"I read in [newspaper] Helsingin Sanomat that vaccinations are being offered to my peer goup. I told my mother right away that I wanted to take it as soon as possible. If I get [Covid], it won't be too serious," he said.

His mother did not oppose her son's decision.

That choice is, at least in principle, being left up to the roughly 250,000 youngsters across Finland who belong to the 12-15 year-old age group.

Following brief consultations, healthcare professionals will determine whether kids are capable of making such decisions, based on their age as well as their developmental level, according to Hanna Nohynek, a vaccinologist and chief physician at the Institute for Health and Welfare (THL).

"It depends on how mature the child is, whether they understand what's at stake and whether they want to make the decisions for themselves. If the care worker determines a child is mature enough and wants to make the decision, then it will be dealt with accordingly," Nohynek said.

In an interview with Yle last week, the Ombudsman for Children, Elina Pekkarinen, said that children and young people should be offered reliable and understandable information when making decisions about vaccinations. She added that kids should also be given opportunities to talk about the issue, especially if there are disagreements about the matter with their parents.

"No one should be pressured into taking the vaccine, while at the same time no one should be forced to refuse it. The child has a right to self-determination, it's a question about their bodies and they must be able to independently make decisions," she said.

Pekkarinen also noted that people's vaccine choices belong to personal medical records and that health information does not need to be shared with others.

Meanwhile, the THL's Nohynek said she hoped as many children as possible would get vaccines to protect themselves and others around them.

However, it is rare for Covid-19 to cause severe health complications among children and young people.

The physician said that as of June, around 0.2 percent of 10-19 year-olds who got Covid required special medical care. A total of five patients in that age group needed intensive care.

"Children are less likely to become seriously ill, but the possibility is there. The vaccines being used are effective and safe enough. However, weighing the pros and cons [about the matter] is good for everyone to do so they understand what is at stake," Nohynek said.

Edit: Also related

Education Minister condemns anti-vaccine protests around schools

Li Andersson also reiterated her desire for remote learning to be a last resort in Finnish schools.

yle.fi

Education Minister Li Andersson (Left) said on Saturday that she wanted schools to avoid distance learning this academic year if at all possible, and condemned protests by anti-vaccine activists at schools in Helsinki.

On Friday police detained three protesters at a school in Helsinki after they tried to disrupt vaccination of 12-15-year-olds.

I don't live in Helsinki but in a small city instead, but I heard that there has been someone giving out anti-vaccine pamphlets to kids at one of the schools that is also right next to the place where jabs are currently given.

NuclearCake · Aug 15, 2021

WTF

Kids should be forced to get the vaccine ! No ifs and buts. The risk is minimal and far less severe than getting Covid and being at risk of infecting other people. Any anti-vaccine protest should be shut down immediately. I just heard a 28-year-old moron the other day spewing garbage about how he wasn't going to get vaccinated no matter what, because "Nobody is responsible if you get ill because of vaccination." This kind of mentality is insanely frustrating, especially now that infections are on the rise. I am so sick and tired of this pandemic and if it wasn't for idiots like this, we would have gotten over it a long time ago.

Too many have already stopped wearing masks indoors and outside, so shit is still getting worse.

Amnixia · Aug 15, 2021

VDenter said:
Kids should be forced to get the vaccine ! No ifs and buts.

Why should kids be forced but not adults lol?

Isee · Aug 15, 2021

The standing vaccine commission in germany (STIKO) is quiet clear about it (despite some of the german media and politicians having a hard time understanding it).

STIKO does not recommend COVID-19 vaccination for all children and adolescents aged 12 - 17 years, but only for children and adolescents that fall into certain categories:

- children with certain pre-existing conditions (long list...)
- living in an environment with vulnerable Persons who can not themselves get vaccinated
- with work-related increased exposure risk

If you want, you are of course still able to vaccinate your children anyway for free. Even if those categories do not apply to them.

Those recommendations are regularly checked and changed if need be. The current decision was made a couple of months ago, based on data present back then.
The german vaccine commission is politically independent and consists of 18 medical experts (University professors, leading scientists for immunology, epidemiology, virology, Clinic heads, a couple practicing doctors etc.) It's not a layman council.

NuclearCake · Aug 15, 2021

Tovarishch Nix said:
Why should kids be forced but not adults lol?

Well, ideally every adult would be sensible enough to get vaccinated. Many kids aren't mature enough and don't give a shit about the bigger picture, if left up to a choice, many would choose not to get vaccinated and kids tend to have the mentality that they are indestructible and that Covid is not a big deal. It is a huge risk to let so many kids not get vaccinated.

Wackamole · Aug 15, 2021

Yeah i think kids here also get to choose themselves. My son is getting his first one tomorrow.

Grenchel · Aug 15, 2021

It's choice in most places, I would imagine? What's being prohibited in some countries Is access (being able to attend events, school) which is the right way to do it, Imo.

Rodelero · Aug 15, 2021

Isee said:
The standing vaccine commission in germany (STIKO) is quiet clear about it (despite some of the german media and politicians having a hard time understanding it).

STIKO does not recommend COVID-19 vaccination for all children and adolescents aged 12 - 17 years, but only for children and adolescents that fall into certain categories:

- children with certain pre-existing conditions (long list...)
- living in an environment with vulnerable Persons who can not themselves get vaccinated
- with work-related increased exposure risk

If you want, you are of course still able to vaccinate your children anyway for free. Even if those categories do not apply to them.

Those recommendations are regularly checked and changed if need be. The current decision was made a couple of months ago, based on data present back then.
The german vaccine commission is politically independent and consists of 18 medical experts (University professors, leading scientists for immunology, epidemiology, virology, Clinic heads, a couple practicing doctors etc.) It's not a layman council.

The UK is fairly similar to this, but you can't get your children vaccinated even if you/they want it, with a recent change to recommend one dose for 16-17 year olds.

I don't really think the evidence backs this approach, to be honest. To determine that the risks of the vaccines anywhere near equal the benefits of them requires assuming low infections long term, or a weird approach when looking at the uncertainties of infection vs vaccination where we assume the best for infection and assume the worst when it comes to vaccination.

kradical · Aug 15, 2021

VDenter said:
Many kids aren't mature enough and don't give a shit about the bigger picture

Thank god all adults are mature and give a shit about the bigger picture

NuclearCake · Aug 15, 2021

kradical said:
Thank god all adults are mature and give a shit about the bigger picture

Well I said that would be the ideal scenario. However, it is a bit more difficult to force adults to not do dumb shit than it is to force kids.

RPGam3r · Aug 15, 2021

Make it required to attend school, oh looked it's basically forced. Congrats less people die.

Hollywood Duo · Aug 15, 2021

I think 12 is too young to make the decision especially when it should be mandatory anyway

Budi · Aug 15, 2021

Grenchel said:
It's choice in most places, I would imagine? What's being prohibited in some countries Is access (being able to attend events, school) which is the right way to do it, Imo.

I thought it would be a choice for the parents in most places and kids wouldn't have given any autonomy on the subject. But as I have no actual information on it, I asked from the thread to get some insight.

We probably won't get the kind of data out of this, but I'd be very interested on the number of kids getting the vaccine when their parents don't. And other way around too obviously.

Arilian · Aug 15, 2021

Budi said:
After reading about this in papers, I was left wondering if other countries do something similar.

In France, vaccination is open to every child over 12.

At the beginning (in June), it required the consents of both parents (either with both parents signature, or with one parent attesting on their honor that the other parent agreed to have their child vaccinated) and the presence of at least one parent. After a couple of weeks, that last constraint was lifted and a child could be vaccinated alone, but they must have with them a signed document to state that their parents are consenting to the vaccination, and the Carte vitale of one of their parents.

The law establishing the need for a sanitary pass to have access to many place like restaurants also included a change to children's vaccination: children under 16 only now require the consent of one parent and children over 16 can decide for themselves and be vaccinated without the consent of their parents.

I don't know if a child (under 16 now, under 18 before this new law) can refuse against the wishes of their parents, but I know a child is supposed, under French laws, to be consulted and to receive explanations for everything that's happening to them, depending on their level of maturity.

Bremsstrahlung · Aug 15, 2021

Ideally nobody should have a choice in the matter.

tokkun · Aug 15, 2021

Grenchel said:
It's choice in most places, I would imagine?

The distinction is that they are letting the child make the decision, rather than leaving it to their legal guardian.

kradical said:
Thank god all adults are mature and give a shit about the bigger picture

Obviously adults can be shortsighted too. However, there is backing from neuroscience for idea that children are especially bad at it. The portion of the brain that is involved in evaluating risks is not fully developed until the late teens in most people. This is a point often raised when debating whether it is ethical to try children as adults when they commit crimes.

killerrin · Aug 15, 2021

In Canada (Ontario) kids of any age are able to give their own informed concent in reguards to medical decisions. If they wanted a vaccine and their parents were staunchly against it, they could go to a pharmacy and do a 5 minute Q&A with the head pharmacist to prove informed concent and then their parents would be none the wiser.

Amnixia · Aug 15, 2021

VDenter said:
Well, ideally every adult would be sensible enough to get vaccinated. Many kids aren't mature enough and don't give a shit about the bigger picture, if left up to a choice, many would choose not to get vaccinated and kids tend to have the mentality that they are indestructible and that Covid is not a big deal. It is a huge risk to let so many kids not get vaccinated.

I honestly think adults are a bigger group of the idiots not getting vaccinated because they believe in idiotic conspiracy theories.

Isee · Aug 15, 2021

Rodelero said:
The UK is fairly similar to this, but you can't get your children vaccinated even if you/they want it, with a recent change to recommend one dose for 16-17 year olds.

I don't really think the evidence backs this approach, to be honest. To determine that the risks of the vaccines anywhere near equal the benefits of them requires assuming low infections long term, or a weird approach when looking at the uncertainties of infection vs vaccination where we assume the best for infection and assume the worst when it comes to vaccination.

I don't know, I'm no medical expert and I'm certainly not constantly consuming the same amount of medical studies and data as the experts in that commission.
The RKI (german CDC) and the vaccine commission (STIKO) are trustworthy imo and their recommendations helped to manage the pandemic quiet good. Their recommendations are not made easily, they are scientists themselves, experts in their fields, they are reading countless studies, analyzing data and debating among themselves and other scientists to come to a conclusion. But they also said it might change in the future, based on newer studies and data. Science is flowing, and things can change after all.

In general, I trust their decision making.

Also keep in mind, they are looking on the pandemic progression in germany. Their recommendations might be different for other regions of the world, with a worse medical system or where the general health of children is different. (they sometimes get asked by nations without a standing vaccination commission).

In the end, I believe that everybody will make contact with covid. Vaccination makes sense, because it dramatically improves the odds to get through the infection unharmed. Unfortunately there is no 100% protection.
But if the odds are extremely low for healthy kids in the first place, I get their decision.

It is okay for you to think that a council of excellent scientists is wrong. And they are, after all, saying that the vaccine is not dangerous for kids (12+). You are free to use it, they just do not think it is necessary unless certain categories apply.

Budi · Aug 15, 2021

Tovarishch Nix said:
I honestly think adults are a bigger group of the idiots not getting vaccinated because they believe in idiotic conspiracy theories.

I've been also thinking it from the point of view, that kids want to fit in and be accepted by their peers. Now of course there are rebels who go against the grain. But when 80% of the population is being vaccinated and people possibly excluded from participating in events and groups as they're not vaccinated, the peer pressure can make kids want to take it. And the point about conspiracies is, well on point. Kids aren't as invested into that crazyness yet, they haven't developed similar convictions as they haven't been as exposed to the theories to begin with.

Nivash · Aug 15, 2021

The approach in Sweden is identical. The kids get to choose for themselves if they're mature enough, otherwise it's up to the parent to decide. I think this is the right way to go. The bar for medical interventions on children against parental consent should be seriously high, it's way too open to abuse otherwise.

Y-Z · Aug 15, 2021

The Netherlands also lets children above 12 choose. I think the results are actually quite good.

CDX · Aug 15, 2021

Nope. But I'm pro mandatory vaccination.

Should vaccine supply be sufficient enough in any particular country, vaccines should be mandatory for every age range that the vaccines had successful clinical trials.

You want to go to school, travel on public transport, go to concerts, basically participate in public society. You get vaccinated. Period.

In Finland, kids choose whether or not to get Covid vaccine

Budi