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imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Hi again everyone. I've chatted up DC films on this forum over the years and you all have, whether you know it or not, helped form my ideas. So I hope you don't mind if I once again share an article here I finally wrote after a lot of research, for those who are interested. I know many here are knowledgable in the industry and I'd appreciate any corrections of fact. I also wanted to share with you all the GIFs. Please close this and let me know if this isn't appropriate.

[h3][/h3]The hidden stories of the battle for control over Justice League, Ray Fisher's fight for justice, and the limits as to what hashtag campaigns can accomplish.

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The day after the movie's cast chimed in for the campaign over Twitter, on Nov. 18, 2019 the production team of Zack and Deborah Snyder got the call (via their agent) from Warner Brothers Studios Chief Toby Emmerich regarding interest in releasing the Snyder Cut on the streaming service HBO Max, as detailed in an interview with Deborah Snyder by the Hollywood Reporter. In March 2021 the studio would release Zack Snyder's Justice League, a nearly four hour cut of the movie with all of Snyder's original footage, none of Joss Whedon's re-shot footage, and an additional $70 million thrown in to the project to complete the effects work and finish the original vision of the film… along with a few additions.

Online consensus is now clear: it is a better movie. The injustice has been reversed: fans got to see Zack Snyder's vision for the film.

Now some fans of the Snyder Cut have begun to campaign for the extended DC story-line originally envisioned by the director, using the hashtag #RestoretheSnyderVerse. It's very easy to understand people wanting to go back in time, to pick up not only the DCEU serial story where it left off five years ago, but the sense of potential of a planned universe and story-line executed by a stellar cast and crew of talent assembled. But, with the time that has passed and the changes in both the people involved and the market in which these stories compete, is it even possible to #RestoretheSnyderVerse?

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We run through the history a bit as WB first conceived competing with what Marvel Studios was putting out through Paramount at the time.

In many ways, Green Lantern would herald the future and prove to be the norm for Warner Brother's slate of "DCEU" comics cinematic adaptations: rewritten, remitted from one creator to another, re-shot, re-edited, and, once released, renounced.

Many have speculated about the crucial role of Marvel Studios producer Kevin Feige in shepherding the Marvel Cinematic Universe to its current course of financial fruition. Certainly we can't underestimate him, but the value of keeping a consistent story-line vision throughout the entire run of movies, accepting the story and character outcomes of every chapter even if it is not a financial mega-hit, seems key to the MCU's success.

Because the true innovation of the Marvel Cinematic Universe is transforming traditional cinema from an episodic to a serial format.

Perhaps Kevin Feige's and Marvel Studios' most effective strength was spending the right amount on each individual title against its possible earnings; WB swung for the fences with each early DCEU film and seemed to expect the cumulative revenue of the five movies Marvel had released in the meantime with each of their releases.

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We swing through the DC films leading up to Justice League, starting with the hasty team-up followed by the full-studio flinch to the critical response to the theatrical cut of Batman v Superman.

After the release of and response to BvS, Warner Brothers studio management, and particularly (apparently) Kevin Tsujihara clearly declined to take the opportunity for introspection about any of the caveats I've outlined: inflated expectations with their second chapter in their rebooted second effort to adapt an entire fictional comics universe, wasted money and impact replacing word-of-mouth marketing from exciting plot surprises with spoiler-filled trailers and excessive spending, lack of trust on behalf of an audience that they should invest concern in this ongoing on-screen story-line with so many news stories and leaks about the off-screen turmoil and the studio's disappointment in results.

Instead, studio management would respond by doubling down and continuing to make the same mistakes.

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The only publicly-facing media with the brand "DC FIlms" I could find.

In the battle of the comic-book cinematic-universes, Marvel Studios proceeded with chapter after chapter in an extended story-line with more than a dozen movies of varying tone and box office success, using initial bread crumbs and post-credit scenes woven into interconnected serial story threads that culminated in big box office possibilities. In response, Warner Brothers fretted and interfered and overspent on their first attempt, abandoned that effort, got two chapters into another attempt with an intentionally different tone, freaked out at the blog posts about their nearly $900 million box office "failure," and then proceeded to duck the serial story-line idea entirely, while returning to the tactic of fretting and interfering and overspending on the movies in production… to predictable results.

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Explaining a bit about the #ReleasetheAyerCut campaign. People are ready to forget about 2016's Suicide Squad and focus on The Suicide Squad... including the same exec who oversaw both.

...it's very telling that the motion-graphics animated-text character introductions are one of the clearest and most obvious insertions into the film on behalf of the promotional media company that took over the editing. It's practically the BvS "Metahuman Thesis" QuickTime playlist of this movie. To my mind, it places an obvious day-glow animated tag on the clear problem area of the entire DCEU: rushed character introductions. This movie, as it was released in theaters, just lets you see WB again try out a cynical collectible digital trading-card approach, throwing it up there on the Big Screen with splashier logo design to see if it sticks.

Yet it's also hard for me to imagine the Ayer Cut, not purported to have hours of unused footage in the can like ZSJL did, would do a better job at what amounts to be an impossible task.

And with Warner Brothers already revisiting that property in a semi-sequel/semi-reboot handed to James Gunn already getting glowing advance reviews, the #ReleasetheAyerCut is unlikely to succeed. More new characters are coming, and perhaps playing with the disposable nature of characters in this series is its best direction to move forward. I remain hopeful for The Suicide Squad, despite the bitter fact that WB poaching James Gunn from a run of success at Marvel is practically the same tactic as subbing Joss Whedon in for Zack Snyder on Justice League.


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Sweeping through all the statements and breadcrumbs, working here to reconstruct the storyline of an essential writer's room coup d'etat by Whedon during the production of JL.

The production of Justice League had labored under fevered studio oversight from well before its 2016 London production. After the movie was already trimmed down from two releases to one in pre-production and conception, the actual shoot of JL would be subject to daily input from the new team of overseeing producers, Geoff Johns and Jon Berg.

After Snyder stepped down from Justice League, Whedon along with the assistance of Berg and Johns would re-engineer the film extensively, and the re-shoots would expand in scope and intent. Publicly, the re-shoots were still the subject of jokes about Henry Cavill's moustache and speculation about Zack Snyder's departure. Behind the scenes, they had become a pressure-cooker wherein Berg, Johns, and Whedon would alienate the actors and crew with heavy-handed tactics that would later draw accusations of racism, abuse, and unprofessional behavior, that would spark outrage.

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Getting into the resultant whitewashing of the film and the abuse endured on set by Ray Fisher, who played Victor Stone.

The cast and crew of the original shoot were very close with Zack Snyder, and together were very aligned in their vision for the project. Ray Fisher, the actor who portrayed Victor Stone aka Cyborg, was reported as being deeply involved in the conception of the plot and his character's story. This makes sense only after viewing Zack Snyder's Justice League: Cyborg's journey is central to the plot, and truly lives up to Snyder's claim it is "the heart and soul of the movie."

This wasn't the case with the theatrical release, at all. With clear basis of comparison, we can see that the meaty character arcs cut from the theatrical release of Justice League are almost exclusively those of the black characters in the film.

"The erasure of people of color from the 2017 theatrical version of Justice League was neither an accident nor coincidence."
Ray Fisher, interview with Sheraz Farooqi, ForbesInterview: Ray Fisher Speaks Out On "Toxic" Set And WarnerMedia Investigation Into Justice League Production – Oct. 29, 2020

Warner Brothers may want the loss of a meaty part to be the general perception of Fisher's grievance, but in April The Hollywood Reporter published a deep exploration of Fisher's allegations and complaints with both the original re-shoot process and the subsequent investigation by the studio into its own improprieties.

Fisher contends there was condescension and abuse applied by Whedon, enabled by Johns and Berg, not only to Fisher but to all the actors recalled for the re-shoots. The article details how early conversations about the changes to the film's interpretation of the characters between Fisher and Johns went poorly, with Johns stonewalling Fisher's concerns, and Fisher reporting taking offense to the tone of the conversation.


Once Whedon got involved, Fisher says that Johns told him that it was problematic that Cyborg smiled only twice in the movie. Fisher says he later learned from a witness who participated in the investigation that Johns and other top executives, including then-DC Films co-chairman Jon Berg and Warners studio chief Toby Emmerich, had discussions in which they said they could not have "an angry Black man" at the center of the film.
Kim Masters, The Hollywood ReporterRay Fisher Opens Up About 'Justice League,' Joss Whedon and Warners: "I Don't Believe Some of These People Are Fit for Leadership" – April 6, 2021

Over the months he has been commenting on the matter on Twitter, Fisher has been clear his issues with the re-shoot production are not limited to Whedon's mean-spirited on set behavior.

Now that we've seen Zack Snyder's Justice League, however, it becomes very clear that if Victor Stone's full filmed story had been released into theaters intact within Justice League in 2017, the film would have been the first of the modern crop of big budget superhero movies to focus on a transformative and primary character arc for black superhero. Instead, Marvel's Black Panther would release the following summer in 2018 and break the billion dollar box office barrier doing exactly that, only more emphatically and intentionally so.

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How the performance of white-washed re-shoot script was coaxed from the cast including Fisher via veiled threats and condescension:

At the time, Fisher's agent reached out to Toby Emmerich, WB's Motion Picture Studio President at the time, about concerns with the script.

Emmerich, in response, apparently made it clear that in the studio's view, the popularity of a catch-phrase (which had only ever appeared in the animated Teen Titans TV series) justified additional pressure applied to Fisher to get the shot. In response to clear direction from Emmerich, this additional pressure was then applied via an arranged meeting with Geoff Johns:

Fisher said at that meeting he felt he was being threatened to toe the line and do what he was told.
According to Fisher, Johns told him that having his agent call Emmerich was "just not cool."
"[Johns] said, 'I consider us to be friends' — which he knew we were not — 'and I just don't want you to make a bad name for yourself in the business,'" Fisher said.
Jason Guerrasio, insider.comFormer DC Films head Geoff Johns denies ever threatening Ray Fisher over 'Justice League' catchphrase – Apr. 7, 2021

…via a dinner discussion with Jon Berg:

"This is one of the most expensive movies Warners has ever made," Berg said, according to Fisher. "What if the CEO of AT&T has a son or daughter, and that son or daughter wants Cyborg to say 'booyah' in the movie and we don't have a take of that? I could lose my job." Fisher responded that he knew if he filmed the line, it would end up in the movie. And he expressed skepticism that the film's fate rested on Cyborg saying "booyah."
Kim Masters, The Hollywood ReporterRay Fisher Opens Up About 'Justice League,' Joss Whedon and Warners: "I Don't Believe Some of These People Are Fit for Leadership" – April 6, 2021

…and via Whedon, using his apparently distinct style on set:

But he shot the take. As he arrived on set, he says, Whedon stretched out his arms and said a line from Hamlet in a mocking tone: "Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to you." Fisher replied, "Joss — don't. I'm not in the mood." As he left the set after saying just that one phrase for the cameras, he says, Whedon called out, "Nice work, Ray."
Kim Masters, The Hollywood ReporterRay Fisher Opens Up About 'Justice League,' Joss Whedon and Warners: "I Don't Believe Some of These People Are Fit for Leadership" – April 6, 2021

Yuck. It might just be my brief personal experience as a young, hopeful actor in an educational setting years ago… but the condescension via weaponized Shakespeare is just too apropos and real-world to be fabricated.

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Last year, Fisher begins airing his concerns on Twitter. WB responds spectacularly poorly, with en exec (Hamada) essentially calling him up and trying to sort him out... only their second conversation... their first being when Fisher was offered the part of Cyborg in The Flash movie.

In mid-2020, in response to Fisher's accusations airing on Twitter, Hamada held what would turn out to be a disastrous meeting with Fisher, wherein Fisher would later allege that Hamada tried to push the blame towards Whedon and Berg and convince Fisher to relent in his accusations against Johns:

In early July, Fisher spoke with Walter Hamada, who had taken the reins at DC Films. He says Hamada "called Joss an asshole," and said, "I'm just looking to get past anything to do with Justice League. Joss isn't here anymore and I don't plan on hiring him again." But according to Fisher, Hamada said he did not believe Johns had done anything wrong. "I don't know Jon Berg very well. I know Joss was difficult. But Geoff — Ray, he's really getting dragged through the mud and I'm sure you're getting your share of hate, too." Fisher responded, "I'm fine with the hate because I know I'm telling the truth." He asked for an investigation.
Kim Masters, The Hollywood ReporterRay Fisher Opens Up About 'Justice League,' Joss Whedon and Warners: "I Don't Believe Some of These People Are Fit for Leadership" – April 6, 2021

Following Fisher's meeting with Hamada and an internal investigation, five weeks later in August Warner Brothers would initiate another investigation via a "trusted" (and previously used) third-party investigator that would conclude in November of that year. It was then that WB took what they called "remedial actions" which they have never specified, with which Fisher was not satisfied. Fisher had issues with the investigators selected and the impartiality of the investigation, given that Hamada had seemingly indicated his intent for its result in the very conversation where Fisher requested it.

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WB conducts internal investigation, and the details of that investigation will remain internal to them, despite their claims of use of an impartial third party investigator. WB concludes that WB "wasn't racist" in the cuts to the film. Whedon steps away from his series for publicly-quoted COVID reasons. No executive who hadn't already moved is moved.

It's clear that in July of 2020, when Hamada tried to resolve Fisher's public complaints of mistreatment with a meeting conducted over the phone, he gave Fisher the clear impression that Whedon had already been selected as the "fall guy" for any response to Fisher's complaint, and their trusted DC development partner Johns was not under serious consideration for any consequences. Did Hamada attempt to interfere and direct the outcome of these investigations in advance, as Fisher alleges? Or did Hamada attempt to broker an understanding with Fisher having already a clear internally-informed picture of what had transpired at the time, and who was to blame?

Again, whether or not Johns behaved in a way that should earn him professional consequences isn't known to us. But it's easy to understand why Fisher wouldn't be satisfied when WB would exonerate Johns, first with an internal investigation and second using the same investigator that headed the investigation into Kevin Tsujihara himself.. and whom some might say was instrumental in keeping the heat for that incident focused on the affected individual and away from any overall culture issues at the studio.

If it was that culture, and the orders of Toby Emmerich, that has put Geoff Johns in a position just acting under direct orders like Jon Berg, then you can see more reasons accumulating for why Emmerich and Hamada would be motivated to both protect Johns and keep the details of the studio's investigation under wraps.

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Before Fisher's twitter revelations start, the improbable happens and Zack Snyder's Justice League is greenlit... because of a global pandemic and a set of decisions made outside of the usual "DC Films" chain of command. That window would soon be forcefully closed.

On May 20, 2020, the dedication of the fans pushing WB to #ReleasetheSnyderCut would finally pay off with the announcement of the release of Zack Snyder's Justice League as an HBO Max Original scheduled for March 18, 2021. Faced with a global shutdown of all active production due to the pandemic, the fledgeling streaming service found itself struggling to line up new content to draw subscribers. It's own production studio, named WarnerMax, had only been formed in February right before the pandemic.

Arguably, it's possible that Zack Snyder's Justice League is the only production to ever be released by WarnerMax. In October of 2020, Emmerich would consolidate his power and dissolve WarnerMax, moving all original streaming motion picture production under his auspices at Warner Brothers Pictures, with two production executives leaving the streaming service as a result. This would give Emmerich full control over the production and release schedule for content in both theatres and the streaming platform under the direction of Ann Sarnoff, chair and CEO of WarnerMedia Studios and Networks Group.

Without significant evidence, I'll tell you right now I'm confident in speculating that Emmerich's motivations in this decison reveal his disgruntlement with either the cost or the content—or both—of that single WarnerMax production.

On November 18, 2020, exactly one year after the day Emmerich reached out to the Snyders to finally acquiesce and ask about releasing the Snyder Cut, WB would announce the long-rumored release of Wonder Woman 1984 on HBO Max on the same day as its release in theatres.

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Fisher would continue to push publicly for accountability into the investigation, and into Hamada specifically. Thus would end his part in The Flash movie. There would be no consequences for any involved executives, other than their complaints of social media harassment.

Although this campaign to #RestoretheSnyderVerse may align with Ray Fisher's career interests if you presume he is interested in continuing to play Cyborg for WB, it's only aligned with Fisher's commitment to value Accountability Over Entertainment if the people responsible for Fisher's experience face consequences for their actions. But instead, by this point, the decision-makers that Fisher would have face consequences have received a public statement of support in the matter from the CEO of WarnerMedia organization. And Fisher would be committed to A>E so much so that there is no future anymore with him playing Cyborg for the current command structure at WarnerMedia.

The ugly situation on Twitter between Fisher and the studio would grow uglier in September 2020, when Fisher would call out Hamada over Twitter for his pre-investigation phone call, implicating the executive for attempting to interfere in the investigation. The studio would respond over Twitter, claiming that Fisher wasn't cooperating in good faith and had to date declined to have contact with the third-party investigator. Fisher would counter with proof of contact between himself and the investigators, although he has also made it clear that he did limit his interaction with the investigators due to the lack of trust in the process seeded by its initiating conversation with Hamada. After WB concluded the investigation and announced their "remedial actions," Fisher was unsurprisingly unsatisfied, and stated on Twitter he would not work on any productions associated with Walter Hamada. In January of 2021 Fisher would then confirm the severing of his relationship with the studio and the role in an extended statement released also on Twitter, confirming that Warner Brothers had communicated to him that his part playing the role of Cyborg in the long-in-development Flash movie had been removed.

"You really have to ask yourself, what's more plausible—that I would purposely torpedo my career by making statements about powerful figures in Hollywood, that, if untrue, could be easily refuted. OR a handful people in positions of power said and did terrible things in order to maintain that power during a massive corporate merger."
Ray Fisher, via Sheraz Farooqi, ForbesInterview: Ray Fisher Speaks Out On "Toxic" Set And WarnerMedia Investigation Into Justice League Production – Oct. 29, 2020

WarnerMedia in turn revealed determination to support Hamada, Emmerich, and Johns and put the matter to bed. Warner Brothers has committed to public statements claiming that Hamada did not interfere with the investigation, and more pointedly that Fisher is making repeated allegations that are not truthful, as covered by Variety. Contracts for Emmerich and Hamada have been extended with the studio, with Emmerich's ending in 2022 and Hamada's in 2023

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In the aftermath of all this, Warner Brothers PR has consistently painted Ray Fisher as unreasonable and unfair in his claims effectively freezing his career, continued with the same rudderless and leaderless production environment that has bestowed us with Wonder Woman 1984, and retained the key executives who led the decision-making for the white-washing of the theatrical release of Justice League.

The "angry black man" conversation at Warner Brothers, regardless of who participated and in what way, was a clear failure not only in upholding the progressive values of inclusion the studio publicly espouses, but in achieving the business goal of representing shareholders by presenting good and prescient competition for Marvel's competing offering. WB management misread the audience so thoroughly they scrubbed an "angry black man" protagonist from their tentpole billion-or-bust superhero film six months before Marvel would pocket another billion dollars with Black Panther.

Of course when Zack Snyder's Justice League did finally release on HBO Max, it was nearly four hours long. A lot was cut from Snyder's original footage and script to hit the two-hour mark originally mandated, likely by Kevin Tsujihara so long ago, of the theatrical release. Is it possible that theatrical Justice League was inadvertently whitewashed under direct orders, for time? How could that be, with reported conversations discussing the whitewashing so directly? How could that be, with so many new and additional scenes shot and filmed by Whedon focusing the film on relationship moments between the white principals of the film Ben Affleck and Gal Godot?

Imagine how many of these questions could be answered, with just a a transcript of this pivotal conversation about the "angry black man."

"Our investigator, Judge Katherine Forrest, has issued statements specifically about Walter Hamada, saying that there was no evidence of interference by Walter in the investigation. She said that the cuts made in the Joss Whedon version of "Justice League" were not racially motivated."
Ann Sarnoff, interview with Brett Lang of VarietyWarnerMedia's Ann Sarnoff on 'Zack Snyder's Justice League' and DC's Future – Mar. 22, 2021

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The aftermath:

WB goes all "conspiracy theory" that Fisher is an agent of Snyder, who has actually long-since moved on to working with Netflix.

Ray Fisher has long ago turned to the court of public opinion to appeal for support and satisfaction in pushing for transparency and change at the studio. His concerns deserve better consideration than they get in certain forums on reddit, where speculation is rampant about the motivations and biases of the reporters with which he has chosen to share his story, and so on… the typical tactics dissembling and disassembling an account of abuse until the victim is blamed. I see repeated there the same talking point WB themselves released in response to Fisher's claims: that he is motivated primarily by selfish career concerns, or that he is working with Zack Snyder to wrest control of the DC Films enterprise and direction.

according to the Hollywood Reporter, WB's sources (not cited by name) amazingly contended that Fisher's Twitter accusations were timed after the announcement of Zack Snyder's Justice League as part of a play to the public for future control of the direction of the DC films properties:

By late June 2020, Fisher went public with his dissatisfaction at what he viewed as Warners' inaction. For their part, Warners sources contend that Fisher was being manipulated by Snyder, who hoped to reclaim control of the DC film universe.
Fisher says that "the assertion that a Black man would not have his own agency is just as racist as the conversations [Warners leadership] was having about the Justice League reshoots. I've been underestimated at every turn during this process and that is what has led us to this point. Had they taken me as seriously as they should have from the beginning, they would not have made as many foolish mistakes as they did in the process." Snyder denies any role in influencing Fisher.
Kim Masters, The Hollywood ReporterRay Fisher Opens Up About 'Justice League,' Joss Whedon and Warners: "I Don't Believe Some of These People Are Fit for Leadership" – April 6, 2021

WB execs continue with the support of superiors and no threat from AT&T management now that WarnerMedia has been spun out into a separate entity with Discovery. They mostly just have complaints now about their PR and social media inconveniences as a result:

"Perhaps we've lost the plot a little bit which is that Toby and Walter were part of the green-lighting that allowed Zack's vision to come to life, which includes sharing the full story about Ray's character. There really was nothing that Walter did against Ray, in fact he offered him a role in the Flash movie.
Walter was promoted recently. I am fully supportive of Toby and Walter and their visions. I truly believe they are great executives. Walter happens to be a person of color, so he knows what that feels like. He is bringing in diverse voices at an accelerated pace, more than anyone has in the past."
Ann Sarnoff, interview with Brett Lang of VarietyWarnerMedia's Ann Sarnoff on 'Zack Snyder's Justice League' and DC's Future – Mar. 22, 2021

I've been hearing a lot lately how "people should not be defined by their worst day." But people commit crimes and offenses all the time on the worst day of their life that define the rest of their life. Just ask Kevin Tsujihara about that. Still, as was the case with the original #ReleasetheSnyderCut campaign, the internet and the court of public opinions does what it does; all these executives I have discussed in this article have experienced a deluge of public derision over their decisions, much of it associated with the #RestoretheSnyderVerse hashtag.

"We're not tolerating any of that. That behavior is reprehensible no matter what franchise you're talking about or what business you're talking about. It's completely unacceptable. I'm very disappointed in the fans that have chosen to go to that negative place with regard to DC, with regard to some of our executives. It's just disappointing because we want this to be a safe place to be. We want DC to be a fandom that feels safe and inclusive. We want people to be able to speak up for the things they love, but we don't want it to be a culture of cancelling things that any small faction isn't happy with. We are not about that. We are about positivity and celebration."
Ann Sarnoff, interview with Brett Lang of VarietyWarnerMedia's Ann Sarnoff on 'Zack Snyder's Justice League' and DC's Future – Mar. 22, 2021

This is precious. At least twice over, Warner Brothers has been happy to completely reengineer a film out from under a director, releasing it into theatres with the director's name over the marquee, and allow that same director to field all the same social media outrage and reputational backlash over the results of those decisions. David Ayer's purportedly final statement on Suicide Squad was very clear about how the theatrical release of the film led to a "tsunami of sometimes shocking personal criticism" that he quietly endured for the studio. He makes it clear how miserable an experience that was for him; he would rather get shot at, which really means something since he outlines a bulk of life experience before screenwriting where that was a very real risk he has already personally experienced (you really should read his whole statement).

And DC films itself just... proceeds. With its model of sourcing productions and scripts out to multiple production houses and creative directors, and a team of non-creative overseeing executive working to maintain anonymity and keep their positions.

Black Superman is indeed planned for the future slate of films at WB. On February 26, 2021 Deadline reported that author Ta-Nehisi Coates had begun writing a Superman reboot feature for Warner Bros and DC, with J.J. Abrams producing under his Bad Robot label. The production was initially announced as a Superman reboot, before more details would eventually be released revealing the intention for a black Superman in a later follow-up by the Hollywood Reporter.

Predictably, online response to this announcement has been varied and extreme. Black Kryptonian characters and other black versions of Superman have been explored in DC Comics before, but when you involve "general audiences" it's clear the readiness to accept such a treatment also… varies. This has left the fledgling production dealing with unfair heat and pressure right out of the gate, often from some of the uglier and more racist sources on the internet. In response, industry figures have spoken out in favor of the decision, including Zack Snyder himself, in a way:

"My feeling is that I love JJ [Abrams], I love what he's done in the past. I'm interested to see what happens, it's a bold and cool and probably long overdue move. But I love Henry as Superman, of course I do. He's my Superman.
I'm not really involved in any of the decision-making at Warner Brothers in any way, so I guess for me it's just wait and see what they do with this and how it manifests itself. But on the surface, it seems interesting."
Zack Snyder, via Naomi Gordon, Radio TimesZack Snyder responds to Superman reboot with Black lead actor: 'It's long overdue' – May 10, 2021

For those who are committed to Ray Fisher's cause, however, it's very easy to feel this is a cynical, strategic move. Proponents of diversity and equal treatment now find themselves loathe to oppose a production with a black writer and director aiming to expand the representation in the DC Universe and through the character of Superman specifically, and side with people with whom they fundamentally disagree on the objections.

But they are also loathe to support the franchise enterprise and the executives who have directed it throughout so much whitewashing and subsequent "circle the wagons" handling of the claims of past unresolved racial bias, and their present consequences, coming from a young black actor.

The production, and the idea, deserve a better starting point… and set of beneficiaries.

For now, under Emmerich's direction, Warner Brothers has in fact announced an upcoming deluge of productions involving DC characters, set for release both to theatres and to HBO Max. A number of these are slated to be produced by Bad Robot and J.J. Abrams.

Typical, isn't it? Abrams is fresh off the movie that raised the doubt that he was past his prime, just like Joss Whedon was after Age of Ultron, poached from a different mega-dollar franchise he had just worked on for Disney.

For the actors and crew of Zack Snyder' Justice League, I speculate the experience of seeing the film released may be more like the relief of finally sealing a drafty and stuck window that would never fully close, than the breezy feel of a window of opprtunity reopened. Speculation is rampant about the upcoming Flash movie, subject to a tumultuous multi-year development hell so far and long-rumored to be based on the character's Flashpoint arc in the comics. As such, the film seems poised to introduce the concept of the multi-verse to DC film properties and allow the franchise an in-universe way to rewrite the on-screen canon of what has been depicted so far. Both Michael Keaton and Ben Affleck are known to appear in the film, each reprising their respective performance as the character of Bruce Wayne/Batman.

Meanwhile the Marvel Studios in the release of Loki in June of 2021, their concept of the multi-verse has already been introduced, in an in-universe fashion using plot threads established in previous MCU films woven cleverly into the plot of the streaming mini-series and folded nicely into anticipation for being addressed in upcoming releases.

Of course, when it comes to building a consensus of audience and public satisfaction around these films, the damage is done. This split among social media audiences is emblematic of the fresh split in theatre audiences for these movies. Some will refuse to partake in the product that comes out from Emmerich and Hamada's leadership just to show solidarity via #IStandwithRayFisher. Others will consider Jenkins' and Johns' Wonder Woman 1984 the future direction for tone in the DC movies, compare it directly to Zack Snyder's Justice League and decline to pursure them further and hope pointlessly for the restoration of lost serial storyline opprtunities via #RestoretheSnyderVerse. Some others will forgive all past transgressions and turn up for a successful quality DC adaptation regardless of its place in a larger connected universe, as we saw with 2019's Joker, the second and latest billion-dollar-earning DC adaptation that WB would release.

Nonetheless, with an expansive slate of productions announced, it's ceratin that WB is betting that there will be enough product and enough storylines to ruminate over for the hashtags campaigns around the release of Zack Snyder's Justice League to fade into the background of internet history. The relevancy of the concerns of these movements will be snowed under by the processing of new adaptation stories for DC fans (and the new arguments and controversies associated, no doubt) and the continuing presentation of blockbuster opportunities for filmmakers. No one has a reason to support persisting with them, when the presence of opportunity leads everyone to want to return to "business as usual."

No one but Ray Fisher, that is. He never got much of a chance at "business as usual."

I hope everyone involved with the cast and production crew of The Suicide Squad find nothing but success when I see the movie… about a week from now, for free, with my existing subscription to HBO Max…

…that I enrolled in so that I could finally see Zack Snyder's Justice League.

Mod Edit: Link to OP's site removed due to self-advertising rules
 
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Critch

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
1,360
That, and BvS was rejected so completely in every form it released in by the general moviegoing public that Justice League finished below fucking Ant-Man. Just because WB's desperation for content made them take advantage of the Snyder fans with another unfinished version didn't mean that there was going to be any further continuation, which will be made more clear when The Flash film comes out.

The sad thing is at least part of this was trying to satisfy a fanbase that will never be satisfied. It's yet another example of why movie studios should not ever listen to the loudest parts of the fanbase.
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,264
BvS theatrical was a disaster. Ultimate Edition at least feels like a complete movie.

Snyder makes long movies, and WB cutting them to 2 hours fucked them up. Bad .

Whedon constrained himself on the first Avengers, but given the free reign we got the worst of the Avenger movies. So the Avengers box set after Engame had 1, disc coaster, 3 and 4.

And then JJ Abrams? Look, I wasn't a fan of TLJ change of tone vs the previous one, however it gave us awesome Mark Hamill acting and it had good parts. But holy shit, ROTS was bad. Bad. JJ Abrams jumped the shark.

The sad thing is at least part of this was trying to satisfy a fanbase that will never be satisfied. It's yet another example of why movie studios should not ever listen to the loudest parts of the fanbase.
So you're basically defending the JL teathrical cut should have been it because they should have ignored the "loudest fans"?
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
Still haven't seen nu Justice League.

Still absolutely uninterested in restoring a Snyderverse.
That would mean BvS would have to be acknowledge and I'd rather we forgot it ever happened.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,889
It's more amusing that Green Lantern was supposed to be the start of their cinematic universe.

I don't think anyone there knows what they're doing.

MemorableUnacceptableAoudad-size_restricted.gif
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
The sad thing is at least part of this was trying to satisfy a fanbase that will never be satisfied. It's yet another example of why movie studios should not ever listen to the loudest parts of the fanbase.

I don't think that's relevant.

Regardless of the fanbase pushing for further goals, the release of the Snyder Cut allowed us to see the intentional white-washing executed on the film, and the full and emotional performances of not only Ray Fisher, Joe Morton, and Karen Bryson... not to mention Ryan Choi (not so emotional a performance that one, considering the role) and others.

It has spotlighted also the tone-deaf and cowardly decisions of certain execs, who freaked out about having an "angry black man" in their films mere months before the internet would fall in love with the anti-hero aspects of Killmonger.

I don't really want the Snyder-Verse. It's basically the Injustice Elseworld there because they never got the character of Superman right. I was going to get to that in this article, but my initial little behind-the-scenes look deepend into a deep and dark hole, where a young black actor got totally screwed.

The Snyder Cut I really wanted didn't have Jerod Leto or any other trashy fan-service or sequel bait, runs maybe 3 hour 10 minutes, includes the complete origin story of Victor Stone, and was released in theatres in 2017 allowing time to fix issues with the continuing narrative plan over the course of further productions.
 
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BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,275
Look, as a huuuuuge DC fan, I don't care if we get more Snyderverse or not. Here's what I want:

Well made movies that aren't in a vacuum. They don't need to be serials that culminate into something like Endgame, but they do need to recognize that none of these DC characters live in a fucking vacuum. The best part about having a huge world is exploring what makes people like it in the first place. Exploring the relationships that heroes have with each other and with their villains. Exploring why we should look up to them as heroes.


So yeah, while Snyder's universe and ideas weren't particularly the vanilla versions of DC characters, it was still entertaining to watch. No, they weren't perfect and execution was lacking, but it had a DIRECTION. It had a creative Avenue that it was heading torward. Can't say that now... seems like WB is throwing shit at the wall. Best part is WB has an instant reset button with Crisis or Flashpoint... but they're too inept to make it work. (Yes is know the new Flash movie is a version of Flashpoint)

WB has fucked this up at every opportunity as outlined in the OP. I don't know how they improve without yet another restructuring. AT&T don't give a fuck. They just want content, content, content. And let's not forget how WB is offloading Blue Beetle, MBJ's Superman, and Batgirl to HBOMax. From the outside, it looks low effort and disrespectful to women and their POC filmmakers.

And to be quite honest, I don't like the idea of a Black Clark Kent. Val Zod? Definitely. But I'm not down with racebending Clark just to do it. Especially when the last white Superman didn't resonate as well as the Reeves Supes from the 70s.

So yeah, it is depressing to think about. It feels like I'll never have anything as consistent as the MCU (irregardless of what I think of them). Not for a while anyway. Doesn't feel like WB has learned the right lessons. At all.

Other DC fans tell me to be happy with what we're getting. Okay... yeah I'm going to see these movies no matter what. But we all fucking know the property can be handled way better under someone else.

Fuck WB.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,652
'Cyborg has to say Booyah' is still such a silly thing

I said it before and I'll say it again: Cyborg is probably the biggest sign of proof that WB should've gone the Marvel route of giving all the heroes their own movie first. And I say that fully believing that they were fine shortcutting it previously.

Because part of what makes the Snyder Cut so long is because one of its many dead-stops is 15 minutes spent speedrunning the first act of a Cyborg movie, which it has to do to get people on board with Cyborg as a character because this is the first time we're meeting him. And him needing to say "Booyah"....of course that's gonna be an ask. The character got big from the cartoon which indulged in it, even Injustice knew it had to let him pop off once or twice. Both of these you resolve by giving him his own movie first. Fisher griped about him originally being Frankenstein only for Whedon to rework him into Quasimodo, right? You give him two movies of build-up, you give him room to be both.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,040
Pennsylvania
I said it before and I'll say it again: Cyborg is probably the biggest sign of proof that WB should've gone the Marvel route of giving all the heroes their own movie first. And I say that fully believing that they were fine shortcutting it previously.

Because part of what makes the Snyder Cut so long is because one of its many dead-stops is 15 minutes spent speedrunning the first act of a Cyborg movie, which it has to do to get people on board with Cyborg as a character because this is the first time we're meeting him. And him needing to say "Booyah"....of course that's gonna be an ask. The character got big from the cartoon which indulged in it, even Injustice knew it had to let him pop off once or twice. Both of these you resolve by giving him his own movie first. Fisher griped about him originally being Frankenstein only for Whedon to rework him into Quasimodo, right? You give him two movies of build-up, you give him room to be both.
Yup, it was all about speed running to the big team up and because of that a lot of characters got done very poorly
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,453
Snyder trilogy is some of the best live action superhero content post-Nolan whewww

to see it end with the Snyder Cut was nice, that epilogue scene was massive garbage though lmao
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,543
It's a good summary of events but I feel like it's lost here when people inevitably take a dig at BvS instead of looking at the bigger picture of why the DC cinematic universe failed. You can already see posts defending WB.

In any case, Emmerich's contract is up at the end of 2022 and Hamada's contract ends at the end of 2023, so there's a slight possibility a Justice League movie could materialize in the next five years. Whether that involves Snyder or any of the cast members remains to be seen.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
'Cyborg has to say Booyah' is still such a silly thing

i don't know if you could tell but I found Whedon's weaponized Shakespeare line something I can almost picture in my head.

Snyder trilogy is some of the best live action superhero content post-Nolan whewww

to see it end with the Snyder Cut was nice, that epilogue scene was massive garbage though lmao

Yeah it was even replete with Army of the Dead blur-o-vision.

I don't blame him for it but there's every indication Snyder put WB over a barrel while he had the chance. That epilogue fit in about as bad as well as an extra pair of arms did for cyborg.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,314
Though I would argue that you don't need to do solo movies prior to the team-up if you're good at what you do. For some reason this is a unique problem for superhero movies because every other movie in existence has been able to introduce multiple characters, get you invested in them, and have them go through the plot all in one go. Do you need Brody, Quint, and Hooper solo movies before Jaws. A lot of times all it takes is a single scene to convey the essence of a character.
 

Jack Scofield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,452
Though I would argue that you don't need to do solo movies prior to the team-up if you're good at what you do. For some reason this is a unique problem for superhero movies because every other movie in existence has been able to introduce multiple characters, get you invested in them, and have them go through the plot all in one go. Do you need Brody, Quint, and Hooper solo movies before Jaws. A lot of times all it takes is a single scene to convey the essence of a character.

Are you telling me you didn't watch the 10 introductory solo movies prior to watching Ocean's 11? How did you keep all these characters straight?

/s
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,652
Though I would argue that you don't need to do solo movies prior to the team-up if you're good at what you do. For some reason this is a unique problem for superhero movies because every other movie in existence has been able to introduce multiple characters, get you invested in them, and have them go through the plot all in one go. Do you need Brody, Quint, and Hooper solo movies before Jaws. A lot of times all it takes is a single scene to convey the essence of a character.

It depends how the movie is written. Some characters are quite frankly not notable enough to have huge introductions of their own - James Gunn shows he largely recognizes that between GotG and The Suicide Squad. Conversely Ayer's Suicide Squad straight-up doesn't actually start for 40 minutes because it's busy montaging all of the main members to introduce them, which is so overblown that it immediately telegraphs Slipknot as a dead man walking when he doesn't get one for himself. And that's for when the origin is the setup of the team itself - there's also the idea of transplanting a character's origin to something else so that they're already established in their own movie, aka how the MCU approached Black Panther.

The Justice League are honestly entrenched well enough in pop culture that you could get away with starting off with them broad strokes. However, the Justice League movie you make has to be made to anticipate that. And preceding with a Batman starting off unrecognizably deconstructed, and then having your movie include 2 whole vignettes just to intro Aquaman and Flash and 2 whole montage sequences just to firmly establish Cyborg's deal, goes to show that the Snyderverse was not set up to do this right.
 

JayCB64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,989
Wales
It's a good summary of events but I feel like it's lost here when people inevitably take a dig at BvS instead of looking at the bigger picture of why the DC cinematic universe failed. You can already see posts defending WB.
tbf it doesn't have to be one or the other, the BvS is fucking terrible, but so is WB for how they reacted, and frankly for the choices made prior to it too

everything can be bad! and is!

There are some exciting projects coming in the post Snyder era at least so things are looking up a bit, especially with a good SS movie coming this week.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
It's a good summary of events but I feel like it's lost here when people inevitably take a dig at BvS instead of looking at the bigger picture of why the DC cinematic universe failed. You can already see posts defending WB.

Sure but you gotta expect a fair amping of drive-bys when you post an article this long.

/r/dc_cinematic should actually really enjoy the piece but I think they removed it based on the title.

I didn't write it for Snyder or Fisher, but I do kind of hope they read it.

In any case, Emmerich's contract is up at the end of 2022 and Hamada's contract ends at the end of 2023, so there's a slight possibility a Justice League movie could materialize in the next five years.

Ann Sarnoff will remain. She wants to make sure they don't repeat the same mistakes…

"One of the things that I said to the group early was never let your fans see your org chart and boy could the fans see our org chart in 2019."

…So you can tell how focused she is on accountability.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,040
Pennsylvania
Though I would argue that you don't need to do solo movies prior to the team-up if you're good at what you do. For some reason this is a unique problem for superhero movies because every other movie in existence has been able to introduce multiple characters, get you invested in them, and have them go through the plot all in one go. Do you need Brody, Quint, and Hooper solo movies before Jaws. A lot of times all it takes is a single scene to convey the essence of a character.
I mean you're comparing Jaws which is arguably a perfect movie for what it sets out to do and pulls it off excellently to Justice League which already had 2 other set up movies in man of steel and BvS. They could have easily pushed League back and slowed it down after BvS was a let down for a lot but the execs needed their bonuses
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
There are some exciting projects coming in the post Snyder era at least so things are looking up a bit, especially with a good SS movie coming this week.

If only these new works weren't benefiting the same execs…

…and if Emmerich really does go to Netflix in 2022 I'll be convinced he has a personal boner to fuck with Zack Snyder now.
 

JayCB64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,989
Wales
If only these new works weren't benefiting the same execs…

…and if Emmerich really does go to Netflix in 2022 I'll be convinced he has a personal boner to fuck with Zack Snyder now.
Yeah, that is the one downside of it all of course, the lack of accountability that came from what came to light is very troubling to say the least - even if it is just a smokescreen it seems to have lead to a more diverse slate of upcoming projects at least, such as Blue Beetle which I am extremely excited for. The futures just a little brighter than before, if extremely confusing in terms of universe continuity.

And the fact Snyder has so many Netflix things lined up despite the fact Army of the Dead was absolutely terrible makes me think he has some real nutjobs championing him behind the scenes on the board at the moment, I'm sure he'll be fine, lol.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,543
Ann Sarnoff will remain. She wants to make sure they don't repeat the same mistakes…

"One of the things that I said to the group early was never let your fans see your org chart and boy could the fans see our org chart in 2019."

…So you can tell how focused she is on accountability.
In the end, it's all about money. Sarnoff isn't above that. Who knows what the Discovery reorganization might bring which is still a few years off.

DC fans should clamor for a proper Justice League serial. Whether it's done by Zack Snyder or George Miller isn't really relevant. It's the DC brand that needs an Endgame-like cultural event to stay relevant among younger generations.
 

just_myles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,465
That OP is gigantic. I'm glad you were able to get this off your chest.

I say let it die. It did it's job. Let a new creative handle the new dceu.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,275
In the end, it's all about money. Sarnoff isn't above that. Who knows what the Discovery reorganization might bring which is still a few years off.

DC fans should clamor for a proper Justice League serial. Whether it's done by Zack Snyder or George Miller isn't really relevant. It's the DC brand that needs an Endgame-like cultural event to stay relevant among younger generations.
Yes. Yes! It can't be stressed enough.

I'm very happy for Marvel fans. They got Endgame and everything leading up to it. DC deserves its own version.
 

Strike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,361
Management needed to be completely scrubbed years ago and honestly I don't even know what's the point of even doing PR for WB when you have this clusterfuck along with the scandals involving JK Rowling, Amber Heard, and Ezra Miller, which have gone completely ignored. I'm in the camp that will just pick a wait-and-see approach with whatever they release for the foreseeable future. They clearly need someone like Feige to take the reigns and build a rapport with their directors, but that doesn't seem to be happening. It's crazy how they were able to get it so right with their animated stuff and then repeatedly miss the mark when they already had an established template that they could've used. At least it wasn't a total waste as they're continuing to salvage what they can from those movies to use in future projects.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
In the end, it's all about money. Sarnoff isn't above that. Who knows what the Discovery reorganization might bring which is still a few years off.

Sure. But Snyder is the one who is going to be just fine after all this, career-wise. So, in fact, will Emmerich, Hamada, Geoff Johns.

Will that be so for Ray Fisher?

DC fans should clamor for a proper Justice League serial. Whether it's done by Zack Snyder or George Miller isn't really relevant. It's the DC brand that needs an Endgame-like cultural event to stay relevant among younger generations.

How many years after this round of content arenamaster will we see the revenue winner awarded this prize of "franchise captain?"

Right now all indications are there's no serial storyline plan in place. Lack of "singular voices" and a hidden org are bad omens in that regard.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,133
Darksied was proper menacing so there is that plus. I would like to see what part 2 would have been as well, I enjoyed the bulk of the trilogy a lot.
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,081
Yes. Yes! It can't be stressed enough.

I'm very happy for Marvel fans. They got Endgame and everything leading up to it. DC deserves its own version.
DC 100% deserves its own cinematic universe. I'd love to see a well-made take on DC characters on the big screen.

Which is why I want the Snyderverse to die ASAP so we can move past this dark and gritty nonsense. I want boyscout Superman, no-kill/no-guns Batman, and I want a color palette with actual colors in my comic book movies ffs!
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,605
You spelled 'certain' and 'ceratin' on that last page.

The excerpts in the OP seems like a comprehensive summation of the events. It's well written.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Uh, that is...some OP there.

Apparently (I just looked) the full article I wrote is 26,000 words.

Mark Strong was fucking WASTED, goddamn...

See we can all find common ground here.

Yeah, that is the one downside of it all of course, the lack of accountability that came from what came to light is very troubling to say the least - even if it is just a smokescreen it seems to have lead to a more diverse slate of upcoming projects at least, such as Blue Beetle which I am extremely excited for. The futures just a little brighter than before, if extremely confusing in terms of universe continuity.

I'm not sure I can get over it. I was like you when I started researching and writing this thing. I need some kind of rdemption for Ray Fisher. They can't just leave it like this and proceed like he's some Snyder double-agent talking about made-up doo-doo.

That OP is gigantic. I'm glad you were able to get this off your chest.

I say let it die. It did it's job. Let a new creative handle the new dceu.

Thanks, I spent a long time on it.

And I'm fine with that suggestion, the let a new creative take the reins. Maybe they should pick one?

It's crazy how they were able to get it so right with their animated stuff and then repeatedly miss the mark when they already had an established template that they could've used. At least it wasn't a total waste as they're continuing to salvage what they can from those movies to use in future projects.

They did kind of low-key screw up their animated stuff over the years with the Nu52 interps tho. They been reputation-coasting on the work of Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and Dwayne McDuffie for a while now.

Darksied was proper menacing so there is that plus. I would like to see what part 2 would have been as well, I enjoyed the bulk of the trilogy a lot.

I didn't like that they made him a jobber who got worked in the first attack, just so they could establish that the Anti-Life equation was, like carved into the ground there, only to imply they lost track of the planet later. All of that diminished him.

You spelled 'certain' and 'ceratin' on that last page.

The excerpts in the OP seems like a comprehensive summation of the events. It's well written.

Fixed. And thank you so much. I very much appreciate it.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Hi, I'm sorry. I am unclassy in my self-promotion and I know it, it's a character flaw. Thx for letting the thread remain.

One person who is not at all unclassy is James Gunn:

qsol52lmj7f71.png


#RestoretheSnyderVerse fans who are review bombing The Suicide Squad can get fucked.

I don't even want the SnyderVerse, but #IStandwithRayFisher, a hashtag that won't even autocomplete if you try to type it out on Twitter this week.

I hope Marvel Studios picks up Ray Fisher. OK thx everybody.