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[March 25] ScreenRant Original: The Snyder Cut Proves WB Killed Their Best Chance to Compete With Marvel
- Thread starter Deleted member 3812
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WB rushed things from the start. It should never be the job of one movie to set up so many main characters.
lmao no, BvS is a borderline Green Lantern quality movie, or worse, which gets more of a pass that it even should due to it looking pretty enough to make good GIFs out of.
These takes are so bizarre. People that actively wanted ZSJL to be terrible begrudgingly enjoyed the movie. It's nothing like BvS.
That wouldn't be super easy. It would be quite the inconvenience.
The reason DC movies can't compete is because stuff like "FUCK BATMAN" is their style. They're going for the "I only like edgy, ADULT hero films" crowd. Joker was a bad movie. Damaged Joker is also terrible. I don't expect things to improve.
The tone is like Batman v superman as is the visual style. It's as close to BvS as any other superhero film I can think of.
Also, it is perfectly possible that the style of film is more digestible for streaming, but I don't see a four choir film playing well for the masses.
I havent seen the Snyder Cut but my friends *LOVE* it. That being said, one of the big reasons they love it is because they actually took the time to develop these characters and let them grow as heroes more than BvS and the original cut. Theres no way they would've allowed this movie to surpass even 2:30 min, and it would've been a bad movie once again.
WB's DC movie universe was flawed from the beginning by not letting these characters develop on their own before shoving them into a huge ensemble where there isnt the space to do so anymore.
WB's DC movie universe was flawed from the beginning by not letting these characters develop on their own before shoving them into a huge ensemble where there isnt the space to do so anymore.
The runtime alone would have seen it bomb just as hard as the Whedon version in the 'what-if' scenario proposed.
NOT trying to copy Marvel was their biggest mistake imo.
Playing the long game like Marvel initially did and only releasing a Justice League movie AFTER Wonder Woman and Aquaman (two movies FAR better received than the prior Snyder movies) would have done wonders for all involved.
NOT trying to copy Marvel was their biggest mistake imo.
Playing the long game like Marvel initially did and only releasing a Justice League movie AFTER Wonder Woman and Aquaman (two movies FAR better received than the prior Snyder movies) would have done wonders for all involved.
Yeah, I'm sorry but, as interesting as the Snyder Cut ultimately was, it was still a really dumb story that had to introduce too many characters and set up future characters in a two hour runtime.
Honestly the entire DCCU was screwed rather early on. Man of Steel had issues but it also had potential as the beginning of a cinematic universe, but then Batman vs Superman comes along and kills Superman off in his second appearance. Instead of that, we needed introductory movies for all seven of the original Justice League members so you wouldn't have to introduce them during the crossover. I liked the idea that Batman was older and even more cynical than usual, but they really should've played with the idea that Superman was the new kid on the block.
You really needed the first Justice League movie to do something interesting, too. Like what if a bunch of superheroes each, individually, got attacked by a humanoid robot that seems to be able to copy their powers and ultimately they team up to take it down but that doesn't work either so then Batman shows up and provides a perfect strategy to counteract each and every power set? Yes the heroes win and the Justice League is born but there would be that nagging issue of "why does Batman know how to beat each of us?" Then you could reveal Amazo was built using Kryptonian technology salvaged by Lex Luthor and he has an entire factory just mass producing them, except something goes wrong during production and three distinct dots appear.
Boom, first Justice League movie down and a second one setup already without any mention of Doomsday or Darkseid. In fact, I quite like the idea that it's Brainiac himself that unleashes Doomsday upon Earth because it already knows it needs more data than Amazo provided it with. You could have coincided the Death of Superman with Henry Cavill bowing out from the role, which would be one heck of a send off.
Honestly the entire DCCU was screwed rather early on. Man of Steel had issues but it also had potential as the beginning of a cinematic universe, but then Batman vs Superman comes along and kills Superman off in his second appearance. Instead of that, we needed introductory movies for all seven of the original Justice League members so you wouldn't have to introduce them during the crossover. I liked the idea that Batman was older and even more cynical than usual, but they really should've played with the idea that Superman was the new kid on the block.
You really needed the first Justice League movie to do something interesting, too. Like what if a bunch of superheroes each, individually, got attacked by a humanoid robot that seems to be able to copy their powers and ultimately they team up to take it down but that doesn't work either so then Batman shows up and provides a perfect strategy to counteract each and every power set? Yes the heroes win and the Justice League is born but there would be that nagging issue of "why does Batman know how to beat each of us?" Then you could reveal Amazo was built using Kryptonian technology salvaged by Lex Luthor and he has an entire factory just mass producing them, except something goes wrong during production and three distinct dots appear.
Boom, first Justice League movie down and a second one setup already without any mention of Doomsday or Darkseid. In fact, I quite like the idea that it's Brainiac himself that unleashes Doomsday upon Earth because it already knows it needs more data than Amazo provided it with. You could have coincided the Death of Superman with Henry Cavill bowing out from the role, which would be one heck of a send off.
Snyder holds a great deal of fault here too. Yes, the finished product delivered. But everything before that did not. The 2 Superman movies were mediocre and terrible in that order. Audiences didn't like them. Given that audiences quite enjoyed both the Aquaman and Wonder Woman adaptions, Snyder's movie's became the sore thumb. WB, in hindsight, overreacted by axing Snyder. I can't say that if I were in charge that I would have reacted any differently.
That was definitely a stupid thing to do. They wanted the success of the Avengers movies without the Ant Man, Captain Marvel or Doctor Strange flicks laying the groundwork.
I think people forget what a failure Batman v Superman was.
That might be the crown jewel of all Warner Bros. inellectual property. Done with the correct build-up and execution there's no reason to think a Batman vs. Superman movie couldn't do Avengers Infinity War, or even Avengers Endgame numbers.
Snyder botched it. He saw his opportunity to make a The Dark Knight Returns fan-film and he took it. WB gave him the keys to the toybox and he clumsily smashed them together, damaging them in the process.
The plans changed with Batman v Superman - if Justice League wasn't already in production there's a good chance that film wouldn't have proceeded with Snyder at the helm. Those plans bore fruit with Aquaman and Joker.
WB doesn't have to compete with Marvel. Their biggest successes have shown they don't need to entrust their movies to the creative vision of a few showrunners - they can entrust their IP with talented individuals with a specific creative vision and do well.
That might be the crown jewel of all Warner Bros. inellectual property. Done with the correct build-up and execution there's no reason to think a Batman vs. Superman movie couldn't do Avengers Infinity War, or even Avengers Endgame numbers.
Snyder botched it. He saw his opportunity to make a The Dark Knight Returns fan-film and he took it. WB gave him the keys to the toybox and he clumsily smashed them together, damaging them in the process.
The plans changed with Batman v Superman - if Justice League wasn't already in production there's a good chance that film wouldn't have proceeded with Snyder at the helm. Those plans bore fruit with Aquaman and Joker.
WB doesn't have to compete with Marvel. Their biggest successes have shown they don't need to entrust their movies to the creative vision of a few showrunners - they can entrust their IP with talented individuals with a specific creative vision and do well.
Nah.
1. The Snyder Cut is a better version of Justice League, but it is getting a lot of bump from not being the Whedon Justice League, coming out at a time when people are starved for blockbuster content, and has a groundswell of lunatic brigaders pushing up meta scores and tempering critical response because its not the kind of release people care to catch death threats for, which would absolutely be a thing if a notable critic panned it.
2. Its FOUR HOURS LONG. It can't be split cleanly into two movies because much of the first half is devoid of the action/sizzle audiences would expect. It can't be cut down to less than three hours without massive hits on character development and pacing. So it is, at its core, unacceptable as a theatrical release cornerstone of a cinematic universe.
3. Audiences already rejected Snyder's take on Superman, resoundingly. Man of Steel did well financially but was critically panned, mostly for his choices on what Superman represents as a character. He doubled down on that in Batman Vs. Superman and audiences, knowing the hook, rejected it as hard as any major IP has been rejected at theaters in recent history. Regardless of the value/accuracy of the narrative he's trying to construct for Superman its one that the general public finds either dis-interesting or entirely off-putting.
4. Praise for his version follows in the same footprints as praise for both 300 and Watchmen. Snyder making very well polished screen recreations of iconic frames from the reference materials and having good action in between. But in all of these he routinely fails to treat the characters with the nuance present in the reference materials. Much like how his Rorschach doesn't convey the fascist underpinnings of the source material his Batman feels like a scared priviliged white man finally faced with a problem he can't just punch down or buy out in Superman. The nuance of the old, bitter Batman reference material is missing in large part because we never see any of the defining secondary scenes that led him down that road. The same with his portrayals of the other characters. His Wonder Woman is less nuanced and interesting than the WW films, themselves far from perfect movies, but at least this release has the benefit of those two doing a lot of character lifting for him. The Aquaman presented lacks character development of any kind and is instead this movie's insert for someone to play dialogue off of. Cyborg and Flash get better overall development, though the Flash's intro scene is some real male gaze creeper shit with Iris that Snyder routinely includes apparently unaware of how gross it is.
He's still making the same kind of comic book movie and this time he got handed a property where the average viewer is familiar enough with the characters to reject the shallow twist premise he's using to lump a raft of poorly constructed comic narratives about an evil Superman, darker/murderous Batman, etc. into a plot arc.
Its good that he got to put it out and finish at least the first major concept portion of it so that we can see it for what it is, but its a product with a very, very narrow market. Snyder's vision had no chance of competing with the more true to the core concept arcs of the MCU characters, and WB's desire to rush through the proper build up to get their big team-up billion dollar tentpole only amplified the already flawed concept.
1. The Snyder Cut is a better version of Justice League, but it is getting a lot of bump from not being the Whedon Justice League, coming out at a time when people are starved for blockbuster content, and has a groundswell of lunatic brigaders pushing up meta scores and tempering critical response because its not the kind of release people care to catch death threats for, which would absolutely be a thing if a notable critic panned it.
2. Its FOUR HOURS LONG. It can't be split cleanly into two movies because much of the first half is devoid of the action/sizzle audiences would expect. It can't be cut down to less than three hours without massive hits on character development and pacing. So it is, at its core, unacceptable as a theatrical release cornerstone of a cinematic universe.
3. Audiences already rejected Snyder's take on Superman, resoundingly. Man of Steel did well financially but was critically panned, mostly for his choices on what Superman represents as a character. He doubled down on that in Batman Vs. Superman and audiences, knowing the hook, rejected it as hard as any major IP has been rejected at theaters in recent history. Regardless of the value/accuracy of the narrative he's trying to construct for Superman its one that the general public finds either dis-interesting or entirely off-putting.
4. Praise for his version follows in the same footprints as praise for both 300 and Watchmen. Snyder making very well polished screen recreations of iconic frames from the reference materials and having good action in between. But in all of these he routinely fails to treat the characters with the nuance present in the reference materials. Much like how his Rorschach doesn't convey the fascist underpinnings of the source material his Batman feels like a scared priviliged white man finally faced with a problem he can't just punch down or buy out in Superman. The nuance of the old, bitter Batman reference material is missing in large part because we never see any of the defining secondary scenes that led him down that road. The same with his portrayals of the other characters. His Wonder Woman is less nuanced and interesting than the WW films, themselves far from perfect movies, but at least this release has the benefit of those two doing a lot of character lifting for him. The Aquaman presented lacks character development of any kind and is instead this movie's insert for someone to play dialogue off of. Cyborg and Flash get better overall development, though the Flash's intro scene is some real male gaze creeper shit with Iris that Snyder routinely includes apparently unaware of how gross it is.
He's still making the same kind of comic book movie and this time he got handed a property where the average viewer is familiar enough with the characters to reject the shallow twist premise he's using to lump a raft of poorly constructed comic narratives about an evil Superman, darker/murderous Batman, etc. into a plot arc.
Its good that he got to put it out and finish at least the first major concept portion of it so that we can see it for what it is, but its a product with a very, very narrow market. Snyder's vision had no chance of competing with the more true to the core concept arcs of the MCU characters, and WB's desire to rush through the proper build up to get their big team-up billion dollar tentpole only amplified the already flawed concept.
Remember when so many people were proud of WB for cutting to the chase and just trusting that people would know who these famous characters were?
I guess that was before we realized Snyder wasn't using the traditional depictions we were all used to.
Snyder won a race no one else was running.
If we are talking televised mini-series, its the best (maybe second, we can debate Wandavision).
But he was supposed to turn in a 2-3 hour movie and it's apparent that would have never happened. You can't even chop this movie up into two separate films as it is.
In an alt universe where WB knew it was going to pivot hard to streaming, did it early, and used this version? Genius. But for what it was trying to do, it was obviously going to be a failure
If we are talking televised mini-series, its the best (maybe second, we can debate Wandavision).
But he was supposed to turn in a 2-3 hour movie and it's apparent that would have never happened. You can't even chop this movie up into two separate films as it is.
In an alt universe where WB knew it was going to pivot hard to streaming, did it early, and used this version? Genius. But for what it was trying to do, it was obviously going to be a failure
I really liked ZSJL -- JL was actually the only DCU movie my wife and I hadn't seen, so it was cool going in fresh. I didn't mind the length, but there's no way they could have put out a 4 hour comic book movie in theaters. I think you could easily have chopped 20-30 mins off this, but getting it below 3 hours and retaining the same level of quality might have been tough. This might have been a case where it would need a Part 1 and Part 2, but they would have needed to build up more good will to be able to pull that off effectively. It's a tough one.
Maybe?
I think that whatever opportunity they lost from Justice League not being able to fast track potential spin-offs and fan excitement for sequels, the failure of Justice League in 2017 made them jump to an approach where WB became a little more confident in casting a second Joker so soon and not worrying about building up DCEU continuity but instead doing whatever they want. It seemed like Flashpoint was the eventual outcome either way to officially establish a multiverse as their next big play like Marvel, so I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
Like maybe the potential of no Cavil or Affleck or Fisher maybe be the bigger set backs from things playing out the way they did, but I don't think they are too worried about recasting. The multiverse seems to be the way they can have their cake and eat it too.
I think that whatever opportunity they lost from Justice League not being able to fast track potential spin-offs and fan excitement for sequels, the failure of Justice League in 2017 made them jump to an approach where WB became a little more confident in casting a second Joker so soon and not worrying about building up DCEU continuity but instead doing whatever they want. It seemed like Flashpoint was the eventual outcome either way to officially establish a multiverse as their next big play like Marvel, so I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
Like maybe the potential of no Cavil or Affleck or Fisher maybe be the bigger set backs from things playing out the way they did, but I don't think they are too worried about recasting. The multiverse seems to be the way they can have their cake and eat it too.
Trying to copy Marvel but rush it all into the space of a few years was the mistake.
the ultimate edition cut of Batman v Superman improved the movie (tho that still doesn't excuse the infamous Martha scene) so I wonder if it's more that Snyder's vision is just incompatible with theatrical releases.
In either case, I do really dislike Snyder's version of Superman.
Yeah, I don't see how we get a version of Justice League where Snyder doesn't have to cut the movie down by almost half and it doesn't suffer from similar problems.
Also, would we even get a version with reshoots that Whedon wrote for? It seems like they were already in the process of adding levity and addressing concerns from test screenings, as well as trying to cut the runtime from 3.5 hours, and it was only when Snyder left that they decided to have Whedon reinvent a 2 hour cut while letting Whedon having more control instead of finishing Snyder's version, as long as they got what they wanted.
WB rushed a team up movie. Zack Snyder had to introduce 4 characters and tell a story. It's not an easy feat but something good could have been produced for 2h 45m - 3h.
The main things I remember about BvS is something about grandma's peach ice tea and feeling like I wanted to take a pee. And Martha.
Snyder Cut is better than Whedon Cut, but they would have had to cut it down to 2 hours in 2017 and I don't think it would have been some smash hit. I think it would've done around $800-$850 million WW ... that's not exactly Avengers tier.
Snyder Cut is better than Whedon Cut, but they would have had to cut it down to 2 hours in 2017 and I don't think it would have been some smash hit. I think it would've done around $800-$850 million WW ... that's not exactly Avengers tier.
Did people forget that BvS happened?
A movie with both Batman and Superman absolutely stunk up things critically and commercially.
Meanwhile Marvels out there making money out of Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man and Doctor Strange movies.
A movie with both Batman and Superman absolutely stunk up things critically and commercially.
Meanwhile Marvels out there making money out of Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man and Doctor Strange movies.
They weren't going to put a 4 hour cut in theaters
Not that there isn't a bunch you could cut, but atleast an hour of that would have to go.
This. Nothing wrong with copying, it's them rushing shit that ruined everything. You got Superman dying in two movies, Justice League happens despite not being properly introduced to three superheroes beforehand, etc. etc.
Shit was doomed to fail
As long as current Flash, Wonder Woman, aquaman, and Shazam still get movies the Snyder verse lives even if he's not the archetect or driving force anymore.
Any of the threads dropped in the Snyder cut (like Darkseid invasion) can be picked up by another creative down the line and it would probably be all the better for it.
Comics have been doing such things forever and I think, with the reception this movie is getting, having a justice league 2 with this cast but a different director/writer would be a smart play.
Any of the threads dropped in the Snyder cut (like Darkseid invasion) can be picked up by another creative down the line and it would probably be all the better for it.
Comics have been doing such things forever and I think, with the reception this movie is getting, having a justice league 2 with this cast but a different director/writer would be a smart play.
I am an average movie goer that watches a lot of Marvel and I have no interest watching any of Snyder's films whatsoever. I hate his take on the universe, the aesthetic, etc.
I don't know but I wasn't planning on bother the the Synder Cut but after hearing some good things I watched it and it was surprisingly incredible. It was so much better then the version I watched 3 years ago and for my money just as good as anything out of the MCU.
I'm still not sure what that scene was at the end but I'd have loved to see more of that.
I'm still not sure what that scene was at the end but I'd have loved to see more of that.
That's a pretty kind way of saying "Snyder needs four hours to do what other directors could do in half that".
The Snyder Cut is indeed a good movie but a movie shouldn't need to be four hours long to be good and, if it hadn't been for Snyder in the first place, the DCCU wouldn't have ended up in the mess it's in. Warner Bros. handed him the keys to the kingdom and he basically shat in a paper bag and left it on their porch.
Snyder is the one, after all, who decided that the first meeting between Batman and Superman in cinematic history would involve jars of pee, Mark Zuckerberg masquerading as Lex Luthor and Superman dying.
Out of the myriad of options you could've had, that's what you go with? Why not just stick to something simple like Gotham City is a fucked up place with crime rates far exceeding anywhere else and a dude dressed like a bat is violently assaulting patients that escape Arkham Asylum, so Superman decides to try to help out and clean the city up and it puts him in direct confrontation with the Batman?
No Lex Luthor, no Doomsday, just Superman trying to do the right thing in the wrong place and realising that there are some problems his powers can't solve, yet still managing to soften the edges of Batman by showing him that he has people he can rely on.
I think the biggest problem was that BvS was an awful movie. If that movie had been somewhat passable then we wouldn't have any of the issues or drama that arose past it. Man of Steel is fine and I actually like quite a bit of it. BvS derailed the whole thing and
It's weird that they would have separate plans when the whole point of a cinematic universe is to seed the current film with portents of a future film. Green Lanterns are already featured in the Justice League and their inclusion at the end would make perfect sense plus get people excited. Plus Martian Manhunter already ruins a really strong Martha/Lois scene.
It would've been better at 3 hrs or less anyway.
It's weird that they would have separate plans when the whole point of a cinematic universe is to seed the current film with portents of a future film. Green Lanterns are already featured in the Justice League and their inclusion at the end would make perfect sense plus get people excited. Plus Martian Manhunter already ruins a really strong Martha/Lois scene.
Yep. Green Lantern would have made significantly more sense. And it didn't turn out badly for Aquaman so I don't really know here.
Never got why they didn't just copy marvel's structure.
2 to 3 movies to establish the two main draws, superman and batman, and then they meeting eachother and learning from eachother and nodding to justice league, 1 to 2 movies for cyborg, wonder woman and flash, and then do a big blowout with justice league.
They wanted to do in 3 years what marvel did in 10.
2 to 3 movies to establish the two main draws, superman and batman, and then they meeting eachother and learning from eachother and nodding to justice league, 1 to 2 movies for cyborg, wonder woman and flash, and then do a big blowout with justice league.
They wanted to do in 3 years what marvel did in 10.
I completely agree with you. My comment was in criticism of Snyder. Even this 4 hour movie, most people agree could have been trimmed to 3-3.5 hrs.
My biggest problem with Snyder's DCEU movies is his interpretation of the characters. Especially his version of Superman and Lex Luther. But putting that aside, the theme and the cinematography issues of the previous movies were more studio involvement IMO.
Reminder that Wonder Woman made more money in US than every superheroes movies that year including Justice League.
There are always audience for DC movies, they just rejected ZS's version.
WW had the benefit of being decent fun for the first hour or so and only falling apart in the last half hour. Comprehensively, i don't think ZS has made a decently fun hour of cinema... which I guess some folks would say makes him an ill fit for superhero movies, especially in the era of the MCU
If their best shot was a 4 hour movie that's only great because it's being compared with a version that has, hum, issues, maybe they've never had much of a chance.
No. WB just needed to commit to a strategy. Ensemble film from which we spin out and build a larger universe, or singular films with which we build to a big team up. DC had the roster to go either route. Instead they muddled around and went with a half-assed foot in both worlds strategy.
You do not need to make a movie for each individual member of your ensemble cast to do a film with an ensemble cast.