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IwazaruK7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
In the world of realtime 3D graphics, depiction of nature scenes is one of more challenging parts due to possible stuff like organic items, beliavable materials or terrain space.
It could be more difficult to achieve compared to rooms/interiors or even city architecture.

Recently, i was thinking a lot about specific era, when game graphics already surpassed early attempts of PS1/Saturn/N64 days, but were still not reaching richness of UE3/Crysis days of PS3/X360. For this time, i'm the most interested to remember how things were done in between.

Platforms, games from which i suggest to remember here, would include Sega Dreamcast, Sony PlayStation 2, Nintendo GameCube and Microsoft Xbox. I also think it would be fair to accept Sony PlayStation Portable here, perhaps Nintendo Wii as well (it's powered up version of GC, tech wise, well). Don't know if we should also add Nintendo 3DS here, but i'm ok if you would. Obviously, i don't include Vita as i consider it being close to "almost PS3" tech wise, while DS is "close to N64" in my eyes. However, you are free to mention any arcade solution based on consoles that i suggested, if needed (there were plenty of them based on DC, PS2 and even Xbox).

For now, i would ask to leave out PC games out if discussion for plenty of reasons (i'm very interested how developers were reaching results with this or that fixed harware architecture, sometimes with amazing workarounds), please understand. Though i'm sure we could remember very impressive case in 90s or early 2000s like Outcast or Chrome. Might be a fit for another thread, i don't know.

I would be happy if you would not only try to post "greatest examples" (there are obvious choices that i will mention soon), but even less visually "strong" ones in case they are still charming, or did something interesting in it's own way, or there are other reasons why you would like to discuss it. Things like developer interviews or article quotes are also would be very welcomed in case you wanted to go a bit in depth.

So, for starters, some games i can currently remember and we can take a look of how much they succeeded or not with nature environment depictions. Feel free to discuss them and/or add your own examples!

***

DREAMCAST

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***

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D-2 (1999). Many would remember it for it's cold winter. Here is a curious quote from interview with Kenji Eno about artistic choice:

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Technically, it's not very detailed i guess, in terms of landscapes, but i think it's still pretty nice for early 6th gen visuals.

***

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Dead or Alive 2 (2000). One of most impressive games visually both on Dreamcast and it's arcade sister Naomi. Image doesn't do it justice as you need to see multi-floor stages by yourselves for best impression. Yes, it included some nice environments with mountains/water as well.

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In the Dreamcast version of Dead or Alive 2, the backgrounds display 30,748 to 51,894 polygons per scene.

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Virtua Fighter 3tb (1998). Would be really unfair if i didn't mention. Perhaps it was not as mind blowing as arcade debut of VF3 in 1996, but it made it home as launch title for DC, after all. As you remember, this game in series was the most experimental and had, for example, uneven floor - which also made sense for some nature-themed locations.

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In the water stage, the polygon count reaches up to 1.9 million polygons per second, about 32,000 polygons per scene at 60 FPS.

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Ecco the Dolphin: Defender of the Future (2000). Yeah, how about underwater? Surely Ecco is very stunning as sea world adventure.

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Phantasy Star Online (2000). Kinda impossible to talk about nature in videogames without mentioning MMORPG genre, where very often players have luxury of exploring such world. Luckily, Dreamcast had PSO.

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Shenmue II (2001). You can't talk about Dreamcast while not mentioning the most ambitious saga, Shenmue. While it mostly takes place in townsphere, in sequel you spend plenty of times in beautiful Guilin region, impressive with it's forest and mountains.

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PLAYSTATION 2

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***

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Splashdown (2001). Do you really like water? And also open to enjoying some sky and maybe a bit of the land around? This one may quench a little thirst.

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Final Fantasy X (2001). Heartwarming and epic jrpg by Square(Enix) was one of first "impressive graphics" releases for PS2. And of course it's world, Spira, had plenty of beautiful places.

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Tekken 4 (2002). Maybe overall T4 isn't considered a best game in series, however it was pretty interesting both in design decisions and also very impressive from a technology point. Not only it had high-poly characters, but stages also were pretty good loking, including Beach and Jungle ones.

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Way of the Samurai (2002). While not being very advanced compared to some other examples, this semi-openworld game has some memorable scenery, being set in Feudal Japan.

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Forbidden Siren (2003). Siren series were an experimental approach to horror genre both in gameplay mechanics and narrative. And while Forbidden Siren 2 could be called an ultimate letter of love for the aesthethics of abandoned industrial places, i'd now remember those brief parts of first game that characters spent in natural areas, be that amazingly dark and horrifying mountain forest or rice fields nearby sunked in myst.

Also, lots of the photo data later used to create textures that are applied to the polygons was actually taken by the development team at real abandoned villages and mines they visited across Japan. The stains on wooden walls and red rust on tin signposts in the game may well remain somewhere in Japan at this very moment. The construction of detailed things like bridges and steps were also reproduced faithfully from places they actually visited on location, so it is perhaps not impossible that someday you who have played Siren, too, may find yourself lost in a place that seems somehow familiar...


***

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Downhill Domination (2003). This was some curious racing games made by people behind War of the Monsters and Twisted Metal franchise. I think i would pick this instead of early SSX games due to how it relies more on actual scene geometry rather than skybox backgrounds.

***

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Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (2004). Do you like forests? We have you covered, then.

"What we did to create the experimental environment was that we went to islands like Yakushima, Amami Oshima, and even places in Canada," he told GameSpy this week. "These are places with a lot of vegetation, like Japanese jungles. Based on our research, we created this fictional jungle forest to see if it worked."

***

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Shadow of the Colossus (2005). There is absolute no way we could talk about landscapes made via PS2 and not mention SotC! It was a game that triumphed both on artistic and technical (well, there were framerate problems, but also it used so many tricks to push hardware it always amazes what developers achieved). Really, one of absolute highlights of nature-based game worlds.

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Landscape rendering is divided into 3 stages, the furthest background being either a rendered image or a texture, which is stuck on a distant polygon. The internal development team nicknamed this "Super Low". Consequently, most of the medium range which goes from nearby to just past the furthest background, is rendered using a low-resolution landscape. This is managed in units of 600x600m, and as the player approaches it, once he gets nearer than a certain fixed distance, it changes to the high-res landscape model for the foreground. This switch is designed to blend well so it not obvious.

***

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Darkwatch (2005). One of my favorite console fps games ever. And while it mostly takes place in town buildings or underground mines, i still can appreciate pleasant views of Wild West landscapes.

***

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Wild Water Adrenaline featuring Salomon (2005). One of game by some ex-Outcast developers. While game itself might be an acquired taste, people behind it knew how to make some nice environments.

The water was using a 3rd degree spline surface that was separately built and converted into our water system during export. Our water technology allowed the combination of four sinusoidal waves that would displace vertices in real-time to create real geometric waves. Furthermore, the quads originating from the nurbs surface were generated on the fly on the Playstation2 vector unit, allowing for adaptive tesselation according to distance.

***

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TransFormers Armada (2004). I think that folks who worked at Melbourne House were real wizards. They surprised me with Test Drive Le Mans for Dreamcast (perhaps most beautiful racing game there), and then they made Grand Prix Challenge for PS2 with very impressive weather and physics. Also known for PS2/PSP versions of Test Drive Unlimited. Now, game in question, TransFormers, might be one of games that really tried to push PS2 for foliage. Just gorgeous.

The other tricky thing was optimising the game to retain 60fps throughout without compromising visual detail or gameplay and fitting the largest stages into memory. Even though everything is made quite precisely to fit, this always happens when you try and make the game push the hardware to the limit. Over several weeks everyone in the team worked like crazy to gradually shave tiny slices of CPU and GPU time off everything, a few KB or memory here and there. We used every trick known to us and eventually it all squeezed in! I think there's very little noticeable slowdown in the final game.

***

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Genji: Dawn of the Samurai (2005). This samurai tale looks vibrant, picturesque and lush. Great opportunity to dive into breathing world of 12th century Japan's countryside.

Ignore the way the grass blows in the wind, and pay no attention to the leaves as they slowly flutter to the ground. Rather, why not throw yourself into the details and soak up the rich, tranquil beauty of an incredibly diverse color palette. Cherry blossoms fill the screen with bright, effervescent shades of pink, contrasting beautifully with the lighter greens and assorted browns of a nearby forest.

***

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Mountain Bike Adrenaline (2007). This was a budget game that became a victim of problems with physics engine which led to many bugs and problems. However, it had some nice nature sceneries based on 4 different countries around the world.

For this game, we went for a quad mesh that would be tesselated in realtime to provide smooth surface and level of detail. Dynamic tesselation was a very advanced feature for the time. However, smooth surfaces were not enought to create convincing rocks and bumps, so by leveraging the power of the PS2's vector units, we included vector displacement mapping in the form of tiny 32x32 sculpted grids to produce displacement values.

***

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Final Fantasy XI: Seekers of Adoulin (2013). It's pretty wonderful how FF XI was first released in 2002 and it's last expansion came out 11 years later. Of course, being mmo AND final fantasy game, it gives us plenty of wonderful environments of all kinds.

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GAMECUBE

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Wave Race: Blue Storm (2001). Sequel to beloved racing classic from N64 is a good way to enjoy water-focused environments from different parts of the world.

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Star Wars: Rogue Squadron II - Rogue Leader (2001). It was a stunning launch title for GC, and had some memorable environments. Not only industrial tech of Dark Star, but also some nature scenery. Including cold snow areas of Hoth, of course.

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Pikmin (2001). Now something unique. Pikmin is experimental take on strategy genre, and also due to how small characters are, it feels like you got caught into macro photography. And we all can enjoy beautiful flowers and other vegetation.

One day, around 15 years ago, Miyamoto was relaxing on his patio and saw a line of ants marching past his feet and off into the grass, carrying leaves towards their nest. Then he imagined for a moment – because this is how the Miyamoto mind works – what the scene might look like if they were tiny people.


***

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Lost Kingdoms (2002). One of FromSoftware hidden gems, Lost Kingdoms series were card-based RPG games. And yes, indeed they had some natural places to wander.

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Doshin the Giant (2002). It is, in fact, remake of obscure N64DD game. But i can't miss it due to how it takes place on island and it's very relaxing to be there. Also main character, avatar of sun, can give habitants more trees.

***

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Metroid Prime (2002). Phendrana Drifts might be one of most memorable winter-themed levels for many players.

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The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (2002). What about some cel-shaded environments? Look no further than into Wind Waker! Great example of stylisation that holds up greatly after years.

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Star Fox Adventures (2002). Unlike other games in series, this one takes an approach that allows exploration more. And, indeed, there are some lovely environments to immerse yourself into.

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Star Wars: Rogue Squadron III - Rebel Strike (2003). Third part in series also featured impressive environments, including battles in a dense forest where trees can fall down from explosions.

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Resident Evil 4 (2005). Yes, RE4 was one of GameCube's most visually powerful titles, and while it more excelled in "built by human hands" environments, there were some "pure nature" locations as well, which includes iconic forest from the beginning chapters.

***

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Star Fox Assault (2005). As with any epic space adventure, you can visit various planets and enjoy pleasant views.

***

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The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006). Twilight Princess was one of "swan song" games for GC, and while perhaps it didn't push it as much as some other titles, it had nice variety of different nature environments, be those forests, fields, riversides, caverns or more.

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***

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Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie (2005). GameCube was pretty nice with multiplatform releases, and King Kong is no exception. And for us, who enjoy virtual world environments, it can provide some cool scenery, from rocky coasts to caves and jungles.

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***

XBOX

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Blood Wake (2001). If ocean and coastlines are all you need, then this early title is a good fit.

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Dead or Alive 3 (2001). With access to new powerful hardware, Itagaki's team upped their game in visual department.

In the Forest stage there are over 100 trees, and each of them is interactive. If you are crashed against a tree, you will get hurt, but if it's necessary that one tree will breakable, then I'll have that effect. But I haven't in the Forest stage, because it's a trade-off between reality and playability.

***

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Halo: Combat Evolved (2001). There is no Xbox without Halo. Or so they say. Regardless, in this generation-defining (among console fps) game you can also enjoy different wonders of nature, whether you walk as soldier or use transport.

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The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002). One of most important RPG series entered world of console platforms with this game. Morrowind is pretty unique with it's weird and wonderful world. Have fun exploring it!

In the interview with developers, Michael Kirkbride recalled childhood memories of going camping with his father and how he was frightened of bugs, mushrooms, and ash during those trips. As a grown-up game writer, he then decided to give the setting of The Elder Scrolls 3 an alien feel by making large versions of his childhood fears a normal part of life in Morrowind. Hence the wizard towers made from hollowed-out mushrooms, the giant bugs used for menial labor and transportation, along with the gas-mask-style helmets used to filter out ash from the air.

***

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Otogi: Myth of Demons (2002). Among more unique Xbox games, Otogi series were spectacular mixing ancient Japan setting with surreal imaginery. There are different natural environments to explore, on earth and in air, warm and cold, during day and night.

***

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Panzer Dragoon Orta (2002). Games in PD series often touch question of how civilization and technology conflicts with nature and organics. In Orta, as usual, you can witness both sides.

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Amped 2 (2003). As usual, if you love winter theme and mountains, then snowboarding games are a good pick. Amped series debuted on Xbox and used hardware well to depict the cold vastness.

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Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge (2003). If you want more golden combo of sea, mountains and skies, go here.

***

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Ninja Gaiden (2004). Just like with RE4, i couldn't leave out platform's extremely important game. And yes it also shines more in city environments or indoors, but still there are some parts of the games that you spend in mountains or caves.

***

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Fable (2004). Fable was a project with great ambitions and not all of them made it into final release. However, it still made a gift for players by providing various environments to enjoy. As for forest areas, there is Darkwood, Greatwood, Witchwood and more!

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OutRun 2 (2004). One of best arcade racing games also looks amazing. Hardware was based on Xbox platform, so home conversion was great. Yes, like usual, road itself is artificially made by humans, but there is still nature around you to enjoy.

***

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RalliSport Challenge 2 (2004). If you desire to have even more contact with mother nature in a racing game, than you should consider rall for off-roading experience. This game in question was created by DICE, so it looks good as well.

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***

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Conker: Live & Reloaded (2005). It doesn't have that much organic places like some games could have, but there are still portions of nature exploration with nice vegetation and fauna.

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Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath (2005). This game is pretty quirky and very charming. But also you spend plenty of times outdoors, hunting or surviving in canyons, lakes, caves or forests. Weird West, as i would say.

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Far Cry: Instincts (2005). Really need to mention this. It's not just an attempt to bring "the jungle fps" to Xbox, but more like an awesome spin-off built specially for it. So use this to refresh your tropical resort feelings.

***

Well, that's all for now. Looking forward discussion and/or other examples!
 
Last edited:

Borman

Digital Games Curator at The Strong Museum
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
844
Fun to see some of my Xbox shots show up here, even though I never launched the site they were designed for :)
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,250
Great thread, some nice nostalgic pics there. Also great to see FFXI on the list as it did forests well.

VZts8oM.png
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I know most of these are a decade old going on two but when I see this kind of picture regardless of context I am dragged back into the early 00s and thinking "this is the future of video games, reality is in front of me."
 

chiller

Member
Apr 23, 2021
2,777
Not sure if pre-rendered backgrounds are cheating but Resident Evil (2002) has some fantastic greenery anytime you go outside the mansion.

iu


It's very hard to find original GameCube screenshots, so I'm using this one I assume is from the recent port.
 
OP
OP
IwazaruK7

IwazaruK7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
Fun to see some of my Xbox shots show up here, even though I never launched the site they were designed for :)

Thank you for making them!

For me personally it's a bit sad that many classic (and also obscure) games from this or that console of the past don't really have a good image presentation.
Many games still have those "not good" captures from early 00s - very blurry and compressed. I know that direct feed capture card stuff isn't something that many people would do, but also "accurate" emulation slowly helps such cases.
 

trashbandit

Member
Dec 19, 2019
3,910
It might be the nostalgia, but a lot of this still looks great to me. Like obviously these environments are way less detailed than what we've got now, but the vibe and sense of place is still really strong. I wonder if it's a similar situation to early game music, where the limitations pushed composers to really hone in on great melodies. The limitations of early 3D scene complexity probably pushed a lot of artists to isolate the most vital aspects of a nature scenes.
 

chiller

Member
Apr 23, 2021
2,777
Whoops, almost forgot another Capcom game with good foliage.

w95wCQh.png


Viewtiful Joe really leans into its comic book style. These billboard trees manage to look great to this day because of it.
 

chiller

Member
Apr 23, 2021
2,777
My last for now.

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Boggly Woods from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door has fantastic & unique art direction. It feels so serene while also a bit haunting.

 

Citizencope

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,212
Great stuff!
I remember back in the day really wishing we could get a non racing game in that Rallisport world. I think Dice has done that.
 

TKM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
540
I've never heard of Wild Water Adrenaline featuring Salomon until now, but from Youtube videos, the water effects are more convincing than many X360/PS3 efforts. Remarkable talent. Water effects are probably my favorite environmental flourishes in videogames.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,440
Awesome thread! MGS3 in particular stood out to me back when it came out. The natural environment just felt so real. It's weird since the game is so fantastical and the levels are split up, but I always appreciated just how nice they looked.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
Terrific thread OP. Glad you called out Genji on PS2! Great hack n' slash that still looks surprisingly beautiful given its age. If anyone wants more of this I'd also recommend DF's 2 part video on the history of water in games:

 

Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,976
Portugal
Wow, it's really easy to forget how good some of these games still look.

Talented artists will always be able to squeeze impressive graphics out of any hardware.
 

bwahhhhh

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,162
Came to post Transformers: Armada for PS2, but OP had that covered. It was amazing how close to Far Cry they got the foliage and draw distance on PS2.
 

-shadow-

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
It's a bit more powerful than the PS2, but as OP mentioned themselves, the Wii is just a overclocked GameCube so I'm posting it anyway. Dolphin shots I'll admit, but finding actual Wii screenshots these days is nigh impossible.

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I'll forever be amazed they pulled this game off on the Wii of all consoles...
 
OP
OP
IwazaruK7

IwazaruK7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
Dolphin shots I'll admit

As long as you don't post pictures of games with "hd texture injected" mods, it's ok.

Does Wii/Vita count?

Wii - yes.
Not sure if we should include Vita or not. In my opinion, Vita is closer to early PS3 even though due to plenty of reasons, very few games pushed PSV hard and perhaps we never saw absolute maximum of it. Just like with Dreamcast...


Very interesting, thanks. Guess you can also mention Okami and maybe a scene or two from killer7.
 

bomma man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,068
Great OP.

I remember being blown away by screenshots of that Transformers game in Edge. Shame most of the AA and AAA Australian industry was decimated during the PS360 era.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,825
England
Great thread!

I want to give a shout out to Monster Hunter for also being excellent at natural environments from way back on the PS2 (emulated shot):
150604-Monster_Hunter_(USA)-1496175650.jpg


It's really important to highlight these old games, because it shows how so much of natural environment design is simply understanding how natural environments work, and not just something that gets automagically better with tech improvements and poly counts. Kingdom Come: Deliverance gets a lot of praise for its forests, but that's mostly because they understood how forests actually work, and not just because of their engine capabilities.

A lot of games, even to this day, still seem to think a forest is created by just taking a single mature tree model, and copy/pasting it multiple times in close proximity, and that's it! Forest! I'm an ecologist irl, and help out Beyond Skyrim with environment design. I made a quick image years ago to highlight this common issue in video games, and what they really need with things like understory, edge effect, and a change in ground flora when inside a forest rather than outside, and it blows my mind how often it's still relevant today as a guide for pointing out when video games get this wrong:

34962287863_a3df635bf7_o.jpg


Most notably this year, is Pokémon Legends: Arceus. A lot of people are upset by how "bad" it looks but can't put their finger on quite why its environments look off. It's because as humans we know when natural environments look right, subconsciously, and when they look wrong. And when you check out the below screens with my reference guide above it will be obvious. And this also explains why so many of these really old screenshots of natural environments genuinely look better than next year's big Pokémon game in this regard.

pokemon-legends-battle.jpg

Switch_PokemonLegendsArceus_Screenshot_3-1536x864.jpg
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
As long as you don't post pictures of games with "hd texture injected" mods, it's ok.



Wii - yes.
Not sure if we should include Vita or not. In my opinion, Vita is closer to early PS3 even though due to plenty of reasons, very few games pushed PSV hard and perhaps we never saw absolute maximum of it. Just like with Dreamcast...



Very interesting, thanks. Guess you can also mention Okami and maybe a scene or two from killer7.

True the shaders and textures were a generation above but I think they were playing around with the same geometry budget (around 250000 triangles per frame @ 60fps)


But here are some screenshots of Brave: Search for the Spirit Dancer... One of the worst games I ever played but it had some nice tech on display.

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OP
OP
IwazaruK7

IwazaruK7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
I want to give a shout out to Monster Hunter

Thanks!
I wanted to mention it, but couldn't find pictures that i would really choose for either Monster Hunter/Monster Hunter G or Monster Hunter 2 Dos. So i thought i may cover them lately with psp and wii entries.

If anyone remembers original MH4 for 3DS (before Ultimate and Generations, i guess these follow-ups fixed it), it had some weird texture scaling for ground. Which was not a thing in earlier entries.

EDIT:

Found comparisons.

MH1 (2004/PS2)

a2cd837014c77193cf0dbae48af0e702-jpg.76266


MHFU (2008/PSP)

5e169f06493813dd86ba9a1069e151ee-jpg.76267


MH Tri (2009/Wii)

28cf61988f1b302014bcecbc596c581b-jpg.76268


MH3U (2011/3DS)

bd63c414684a539c3f21c27373f2edcb-jpg.76269


MH4 (2013/3DS)

88004f82b93aa30c62655a0389d7670d-jpg.76271


MHG (2015/3DS)

large.jpg
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Great thread!

I want to give a shout out to Monster Hunter for also being excellent at natural environments from way back on the PS2 (emulated shot):
150604-Monster_Hunter_(USA)-1496175650.jpg


It's really important to highlight these old games, because it shows how so much of natural environment design is simply understanding how natural environments work, and not just something that gets automagically better with tech improvements and poly counts. Kingdom Come: Deliverance gets a lot of praise for its forests, but that's mostly because they understood how forests actually work, and not just because of their engine capabilities.

A lot of games, even to this day, still seem to think a forest is created by just taking a single mature tree model, and copy/pasting it multiple times in close proximity, and that's it! Forest! I'm an ecologist irl, and help out Beyond Skyrim with environment design. I made a quick image years ago to highlight this common issue in video games, and what they really need with things like understory, edge effect, and a change in ground flora when inside a forest rather than outside, and it blows my mind how often it's still relevant today as a guide for pointing out when video games get this wrong:

34962287863_a3df635bf7_o.jpg


Most notably this year, is Pokémon Legends: Arceus. A lot of people are upset by how "bad" it looks but can't put their finger on quite why its environments look off. It's because as humans we know when natural environments look right, subconsciously, and when they look wrong. And when you check out the below screens with my reference guide above it will be obvious. And this also explains why so many of these really old screenshots of natural environments genuinely look better than next year's big Pokémon game in this regard.

pokemon-legends-battle.jpg

Switch_PokemonLegendsArceus_Screenshot_3-1536x864.jpg
I think there's a pretty straightforward reason why games get forests wrong to this day: it's simply much more expensive (in terms of performance and asset creation) to have a large number of different models for individual trees and unique varieties of plants and foliage, and much cheaper to have a small number of unique models which are heavily instanced.
This practice is probably more prevalent than in the past because more games are open worlds rather than a series of small enclosed environments.
 

Deleted member 8752

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It's really crazy how powerful Xbox was for its time. The look of those shots is like almost a whole generation above the Dreamcast and PS2.
 

Tailzo

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Even back then, how good the artist were made a bigger impact than how many polygons the console could push. Shenmue II still looks so good. I also love the look of Pikmin, even back on gamecube.
 

Darkstorne

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Oct 26, 2017
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I think there's a pretty straightforward reason why games get forests wrong to this day: it's simply much more expensive (in terms of performance and asset creation) to have a large number of different models for individual trees and unique varieties of plants and foliage, and much cheaper to have a small number of unique models which are heavily instanced.
This practice is probably more prevalent than in the past because more games are open worlds rather than a series of small enclosed environments.
For sure, that must be a part of it, but when older games were pulling it off that's really not a great excuse on modern hardware. I get the feeling it's more prioritization of where they want asset variety, and where they think they can get away with cutting corners for their art team. And environments are often on the chopping board there. But it's bizarre to see a game like Pokémon making that choice when natural environments are such a key aspect of their games, and especially so with their first big open world game. Honestly makes me wonder if they just don't have an art team that understand how natural environments work, because when you're trying to hype your big new game with screenshots of your "beautiful" open world that look like that... well...

EDIT: Also, my dream that is never ever going to become reality, would be to work alongside a big open world game team (Bethesda, Ubisoft, Rockstar etc) to help with the creation of a truly next gen flora system. Where trees stop being treated as individual models to copy/paste/rotate, but are created by the engine procedurally. A level designer would paint trunks rather than full trees into a landscape, and the engine would dynamically place the branches on all those trunks by factoring in light levels and proximity to other trees. You'd see much more realistic tree design as a result, and a colossal increase in visual variety of tree models. It always bugs me that trees are still individual static models, and you can recognize the same models by their branch layout really easily. It would be such an easy thing to design, and provide such a big improvement. Surprises me that even SpeedTree isn't doing it like this yet.
 
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Handicapped Duck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
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May 20, 2018
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Wow, Transformers Armada, what a nostalgia bomb, I totally forgot I played that game with family and here it is being posted on a phenomenal thread.
 
Oct 26, 2017
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For sure, that must be a part of it, but when older games were pulling it off that's really not a great excuse on modern hardware. I get the feeling it's more prioritization of where they want asset variety, and where they think they can get away with cutting corners for their art team. And environments are often on the chopping board there. But it's bizarre to see a game like Pokémon making that choice when natural environments are such a key aspect of their games, and especially so with their first big open world game. Honestly makes me wonder if they just don't have an art team that understand how natural environments work, because when you're trying to hype your big new game with screenshots of your "beautiful" open world that look like that... well...

EDIT: Also, my dream that is never ever going to become reality, would be to work alongside a big open world game team (Bethesda, Ubisoft, Rockstar etc) to help with the creation of a truly next gen flora system. Where trees stop being treated as individual models to copy/paste/rotate, but are created by the engine procedurally. A level designer would paint trunks rather than full trees into a landscape, and the engine would dynamically place the branches on all those trunks by factoring in light levels and proximity to other trees. You'd see much more realistic tree design as a result, and a colossal increase in visual variety of tree models. It always bugs me that trees are still individual static models, and you can recognize the same models by their branch layout really easily. It would be such an easy thing to design, and provide such a big improvement. Surprises me that even SpeedTree isn't doing it like this yet.

Pokemon's environmental art is indeed bad, I agree. Breath of the Wild was at least able to work within the limitations of the hardware to produce trees of various shape, size, angle etc.

If a developer wanted to, they could create flora building blocks that weren't each an entire plant but rather elements of a plant: different branch shapes and sizes, collections of leaves of different colors (from green to yellow to red to brown, simulating different stages of the leaf's life), various stump extrusions with interesting shapes, roots protruding from the ground, fallen branches, etc. And then lay them out in creative combinations so that repeated patterns of the same tree would be avoided.

This is something that games could have done even a decade ago, and I'm sure some did and do today (BOTW probably has something like this).

Ultimately relying on instancing can be a good strategy for taking advantage of limited resources, until a better technology comes around that can rapidly stream huge amounts of geometric data - perhaps something we'll see more often on PS5 and Series X. But you have to be smart about what you're instancing, otherwise you end up with the jarringly noticeable patterns you've mentioned.
 

Tankshell

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Nov 1, 2017
2,120
Naughty Dog were a force to be reckoned with back then on PS2 (just as they are today), therefore the original Jak and Daxter gets my vote, especially the Forbidden Jungle area. Some footage of the OG PS2 version here:

 
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IwazaruK7

IwazaruK7

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Oct 27, 2017
1,155
I'm an ecologist irl, and help out Beyond Skyrim with environment design. I made a quick image years ago to highlight this common issue in video games, and what they really need with things like understory, edge effect, and a change in ground flora when inside a forest rather than outside, and it blows my mind how often it's still relevant today as a guide for pointing out when video games get this wrong

Interesting. By any chance, did you also study these resourses? I encountered it when was looking into history of vegetation modelling in 3D.

 

JankyNedelko

Member
Oct 15, 2020
345
The Netherlands
While Transformers didn't have the most inspiring level design (the first Amazon level is ace, tho), I was still amazed at what Melbourne House managed to pull off with the visuals. Those lush jungle environments and beautiful waters on such a huge map? Being able to jump off of the Alaskan peaks and fly all the way down to the shore? Phew…. I need to pop this game into my PS2 soon

Also, the game had some hilarious rag doll physics!
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,522
What an incredible OP! Well done for putting the time and effort into it :)

I do love nature scenes in games and while they've gotten better in a lot of ways there was something about that generation that was special. I suppose it was the fact that it was a huge leap over the PS1 era when textures were a lot more blocky.

I'll give a shout out to Sky Oddessy on PS2, while the textures were basic it was mixed with a lot of cool weather effects, storms and stuff that made it very satisfying to play.

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IwazaruK7

IwazaruK7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
Some videos to supplement from my bookmarks.

TransFormers Armada jungle level:





Legendary VF3 presentation:

 

SanTheSly

The San Symphony Project
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Sep 2, 2019
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Incredibly loving OP with some really unique cuts featured.

Didn't think I'd be opening this thread with a screenshot of D-2 as the first image, but here we are!
 

CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,173
Chicago, IL
I have 4 thoughts

1. FFX and FFXII were both ahead of their times at the times of launching. They looked amazing.
2. I am fascinated at how folks played Kingdom Hearts 3 or something like Kena Bridge of Spirits recently and mention how those environments are PS2-like and great.
3. Champions of Norrath and its sequel Return to Arms had some of the most amazing environments and towns I have seen. It clicked super well.
4. Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks was a great game for coop and exploration with this idea of "PS2-like" design.
 

iamsirjoshua

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,026
Fun to see some of my Xbox shots show up here, even though I never launched the site they were designed for :)

Thank you for helping to keep so much of this preserved!

This is a wonderful thread and really takes me back. I was actually just thinking about this while playing Kena, and noting how it really calls back to many action-platformer titles from that era, but with modern sensibilities that required our imaginations to fill in the gaps two decades ago. A reminder of what these natural environments looked like then really helps drive that home.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,383
One big problem PS2 had was memory limitations, a common compromise devs did was to lower the color depth of the textures, these gave PS2 games a pretty muted look at times, SOTC in the early footage was far more colourful like Ico was, which had vastly superior textures to SOTC, as development went on they compromised for a more washed out HDR heavy art style. Xbox & GC seemed to fair much better in this regard.