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SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,163
tenor.gif


With the newest TLOU2 trailer having just dopped and everyone discussing theories about the story, I thought it would be interesting to revisit where we leave Ellie at the end of The Last of Us 1, as it might give us a better idea as to where she's at at the start of the sequel. In this video from late 2013 (several months after TLOU was originally released), Neil Druckmann discusses his interpretation of the ending. Discussion of the ending starts around 31:00:




Neil Druckmann said:
"...and one of the first 'Ah ha!' moments I had kind of working on the story and the structure is when we figured out Joel's arc. And his arc is all about this irrational love you feel for your kid - that you would do anything to take away their pain, and definitely anything in the world to save them from harm. And it's about how far this guy, who's become a father to Ellie, how far he's willing to go to save her. Clearly, he's willing to give up his life - that comes pretty easily for him because he doesn't care much about it. But then we see he's willing to give up his friends' and family's lives, or put them at risk. All these walls and defenses that he's put around himself to kind of protect his emotional state, he's willing to throw all those down and put those at risk, because it's worth it. It's worth putting that at risk to have that love of your kid, even though that you might have to deal with something horrible happening to them. And he's willing to put his soul on the line, right? Damning the rest of mankind in exchange for this girl's life.

But what happens here on this lie, and in this emphasis on the lie, is... this is kind of taking his journey to the end of the line. That he's willing to put his relationship with Ellie on the line. The thing that he cares for the most. He's willing to risk that, you know, to protect Ellie.

And that final pause... and when Ellie says 'okay' means that she gets it. She knows he's lying, but she's willing to kind of put that behind her and accept it for a chance for them to find peace together... well, at least that's how most people interpret the ending... So I want to talk about my interpretation of that ending... The thing with that ending is it kind of misses Ellie's arc.

...So Ellie starts out clinging to these parental figures, thinking she needs someone much stronger than her in order to survive in this world. It starts out with Marlene, and pretty quickly it shifts to Joel as they go off on this journey. And she looks up to Joel - she wants to be like him, she wants to win his respect. And it's this kind of theme that we emphasize throughout the entire story - an example of it is like when Ellie is talking to Sam, she talks about how her greatest fear, more than anything, is ending up alone.

And yet as the story develops, we see that she's quite capable, and in fact she's been capable this whole time. And at many times, like, she stands up to Joel and forces him to respect her as an equal. And at times even more than that, right? When Joel is, again, we get to this moment that he is incapacitated, and as a player you become Ellie, and you get to see how strong she is, and how she tends to Joel and eventually kind of brings him back to life... And it's as Ellie that you kind of confront the worst of mankind, and you fight a character that does horrible things not for survival but for enjoyment... It's the only boss fight in the game, and this whole sequence is structured purposefully in such a way so that you think, in the last moment, Joel is going to burst in through that door and save Ellie. But in fact... Ellie saves herself (in kind of a brutal way).

And then we kind of pay our respect to that sequence... and show that it has a toll, and just because we're creating strong characters... doesn't mean that they can't have moments of weakness - that they can't be vulnerable. And at this moment, Joel does his best to cheer Ellie up, to bring her out of this dark place that she went to in her mind. And he opens up to her in ways that he's never opened up to anyone since the death of his daughter... But again it's Ellie who lifts her own spirits when she finds kind of the beauty in this herd of giraffes.

And we come to that ending, and that lie, and that 'okay'... and what does that 'okay' mean? Well it's definitely not a complicit 'yeah i'll go along with you'. In fact... it's the opposite. It's Ellie for the first time waking up and realizing that she can't rely on him anymore. That while she loves him for what he's done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to... she has to leave him. She has to make her own decisions, and her own mistakes... that's her arc going to the end of the line. And the thing she wanted most in life is this father figure, but to become truly independent, she has to give that up.

And that's kind of like... those two arcs... are the core truth for me in this story. That all the sacrifices we make as parents... is to give our kids tools to make their own decisions."


Now, Neil does go on to emphasize later, when responding to an audience question, that this is just his interpretation. And that other interpretations of the ending are also totally valid:
Neil Druckmann said:
"...I was even reluctant about whether to talk about my interpretation of that ending because people have such different interpretations... and I say it's my interpretation because it's not necessarily the ending... if you have a different interpretation that works with the facts that are in the story, then that's valid. This is just the way... this was the original intention. It doesn't mean... Intention is nothing. It's whatever you kind of make of the story that matters."


Personally though, I really like this interpretation, and it adds this beautiful thematic asymmetry to TLOU - where Joel's arc is him rediscovering that parental instinct of giving up everything to protect his child, while Ellie's arc is practically the opposite - that in order to survive she can't depend on Joel or any other parental figure to take care of her. It also explains the lack of Joel in what we've seen from what is assumed to be the earliest sections of TLOU2. Maybe Ellie did leave Joel between the two games, and so the two aren't reunited until later on in the story?

It's worth also mentioning that there are various interviews and videos floating around with both Neil and several of the actors involved where it's mentioned that the script for TLOU2 was being worked on as early as 2014, so a lot of the thoughts Neil has in the video above are likely close to where he was at as he began to write the sequel.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,391
And we come to that ending, and that lie, and that 'okay'... and what does that 'okay' mean? Well it's definitely not a complicit 'yeah i'll go along with you'. In fact... it's the opposite. It's Ellie for the first time waking up and realizing that she can't rely on him anymore. That while she loves him for what he's done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to... she has to leave him. She has to make her own decisions, and her own mistakes... that's her arc going to the end of the line. And the thing she wanted most in life is this father figure, but to become truly independent, she has to give that up.

TLOU2 trailer made it seem like she lives alone so this checks out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
I've always took it to be very clear that Ellie knows he's lying. The performances communicate that clearly.

It wouldn't be surprising that she kind of accepts it but still resents him.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,335
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the two drifted apart during those five years. Maybe not even an outspoken confrontation but just that they never got as close again.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,697
It also explains the lack of Joel in what we've seen from what is assumed to be the earliest sections of TLOU2. Maybe Ellie did leave Joel between the two games, and so the two aren't reunited until later on in the story?

According to the synopsis for TLOU Part 2:
Five years after their dangerous journey across the post-pandemic United States, Ellie and Joel have settled down in Jackson, Wyoming. Living amongst a thriving community of survivors has allowed them peace and stability, despite the constant threat of the infected and other, more desperate survivors.

So unless the synopsis is lying, Ellie didn't leave Joel. In fact the other trailers have implied that Joel is hard on people she goes on patrols with because he's worried.
 

LuisGarcia

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,478
I don't really like the idea that she is done with him. The thing that I love about the game is the relationship between Joel and Ellie and the bond that both of them have in spite of everything.

I personally like the theory more that she knew he was lying but she chose to accept it after everything they have been through
 

Zippro

Member
May 20, 2018
339
I mean, yeah, it's a pretty straightforward ending. He didn't really need to explain it tbh.
 

OniBarubary

Member
Nov 30, 2017
124
Fucking called it. Argued til I was blue in the face that she obviously knew he was lying and she asked him to see if he would lie to her, and her "okay" was acceptance of him lying. I cannot oversell how much I had to argue this with other people who just did not get it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
16,409
Mushroom Kingdom
Considering thats from 2013, I wonder if Neil's interpretation has changed. While its cool that its left to interpretation, it would affect the entire story arc of Part II

According to the synopsis for TLOU Part 2:


So unless the synopsis is lying, Ellie didn't leave Joel. In fact the other trailers have implied that Joel is hard on people she goes on patrols with because he's worried.

Interesting point in synopsis.

Someone just pointed out to me that Tommy could have also been the one "hard on people". Joel's name is not outright said.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Fucking called it. Argued til I was blue in the face that she obviously knew he was lying and she asked him to see if he would lie to her, and her "okay" was acceptance of him lying. I cannot oversell how much I had to argue this with other people who just did not get it.

i dont think that her knowing he was lying was in debate that much.

her reaction to the lie is the whole conundrum
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
Fucking called it. Argued til I was blue in the face that she obviously knew he was lying and she asked him to see if he would lie to her, and her "okay" was acceptance of him lying. I cannot oversell how much I had to argue this with other people who just did not get it.
I don't get how people didn't get that. She doesn't look happy when saying okay.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,545
Yeah, I completely love this. The divide in interpretations this ending led to was showing very clearly what a great story they have told here and how ready people were to fall in love with these characters.

But I always fell on the side that found it very hard to relate to the people who argued in favor of Joel's actions, because it also meant taking away any and all agency Ellie would have had. In the story, she made it VERY clear that she would protect others and keep them from having to go through what she went through instead of saving herself. She made that very clear, again, at the very end, with her last monologue referencing the story later told in Left Behind. Ignoring that and still arguing in favor of Joel's murderous killing spree simply because you want that character to get what he wants always came across to me as ill advised.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
I think the most interesting aspect of TLoU 2 will be seeing this relationship unfold. I feel like Ellie sort of compartmentalized what happened and drifted away from him. It's bound to explode though. I can't wait.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,697
Yeah, I completely love this. The divide in interpretations this ending led to was showing very clearly what a great story they have told here and how ready people were to fall in love with these characters.

But I always fell on the side that found it very hard to relate to the people who argued in favor of Joel's actions, because it also meant taking away any and all agency Ellie would have had. In the story, she made it VERY clear that she would protect others and keep them from having to go through what she went through instead of saving herself. She made that very clear, again, at the very end, with her last monologue referencing the story later told in Left Behind. Ignoring that and still arguing in favor of Joel's murderous killing spree simply because you want that character to get what he wants always came across to me as ill advised.

So you believe the Fireflies abusing her survivors guilt to allow them to murder her is fine? Not like they gave her a choice either. Marlene said as much that they kept her under using drugs cause they were afraid if she didn't want to go through with it.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,288
so ellie will hate joel's guts on part 2 huh?
I think this might be why Joel coming after her seems plausible (aka not a ghost lol).
Ellie drifted from Joel.
Dina shows up.
Time passes.
Whole fuckery with Ellie and Dina happens.
Ellie goes to war on her own.
Tommy tells Joel and follows instantly.
Ellie and Joel bicker nonstop for the whole game.

Would make sense, he came but she doesn't want him there.
 
OP
OP
SunBroDave

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,163
Considering thats from 2013, I wonder if Neil's interpretation has changed. While its cool that its left to interpretation, it would affect the entire story arc of Part II
There are actually various interviews and videos floating around with both Neil and several of the actors involved where it's mentioned that the script for TLOU2 was being worked on as early as 2014, so a lot of the thoughts Neil has in the video above are likely close to where he was at as he began to write the sequel.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
\
So you believe the Fireflies abusing her survivors guilt to allow them to murder her is fine? Not like they gave her a choice either. Marlene said as much that they kept her under using drugs cause they were afraid if she didn't want to go through with it.

Many people would say the ends justified the means and even I felt uncomfortable saving her and killing everyone during that sequence. And Ellie based on everything we know about her would agree
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,545
So you believe the Fireflies abusing her survivors guilt to allow them to murder her is fine? Not like they gave her a choice either. Marlene said as much that they kept her under using drugs cause they were afraid if she didn't want to go through with it.

I'm not arguing in favor or against the Fireflies at all. I'm simply talking about Ellie and how she is getting portrayed in the story. She herself makes it very clear that she does not condone Joel's actions, that it's not what she wanted. Hell, Joel himself knows it, that's the very reason he lies to her. The Fireflies might not have known what Ellie's reaction would have been. But we, as the players, absolutely do.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,788
This is pretty much exactly what I didn't want to happen. Damn it, Neil. Sometimes an ambiguous ending is good enough ambiguous. :/
 

Deleted member 9317

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,451
New York
"It's the only boss fight in the game, and this whole sequence is structured purposefully in such a way so that you think, in the last moment, Joel is going to burst in through that door and save Ellie. But in fact... Ellie saves herself (in kind of a brutal way)."

Great moment. The sense of helplessness and the need for support all pays off with the serious boost of aggressive empowerment that just breaks down every reason to continue in that world, and yet you have to.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
tenor.gif


With the newest TLOU2 trailer having just dopped and everyone discussing theories about the story, I thought it would be interesting to revisit where we leave Ellie at the ending of The Last of Us 1, as it might give us a better guess as to where she's at at the beginning of the sequel. In this video from late 2013 (several months after TLOU was originally released), Neil Druckmann discusses his interpretation of the ending. Discussion of the ending starts 31:36:







Now, Neil does go on to emphasize later, when responding to an audience question, that this is just his interpretation. And that other interpretations of the ending are also totally valid:


Personally though I really like his interpretation, and it adds the beautiful thematic asymmetry to TLOU - where Joel's arc is him rediscovering that parental instinct of giving up everything to protect his child, while Ellie's arc is practically the opposite - that in order to survive she can't depend on Joel or any other parental figure to take care of her. It also explains the lack of Joel in what we've seen from what is assumed to be the earliest sections of TLOU2. Maybe Ellie did leave Joel between the two games, and so the two aren't reunited until later on in the story?

It's worth also mentioning that there are various interviews and videos floating around with both Neil and several of the actors involved where it's mentioned that the script for TLOU2 was being worked on as early as 2014, so a lot of the thoughts Neil has in the video above are likely close to where he was at as he began to write the sequel.


Hey how about that, it's EXACTLY WHAT I'VE TAKEN SHIT FOR YEARS FOR SAYING. :p

I don't know how they could have made it clearer when they had already reverted playability to Ellie for the finale.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,170
I took it as acknowledgement that he was lying, but not necessarily as acceptance in the name of some peace. To me, he immediately became categorized as an enemy to her, that capitulating to this person meant a fundamental change to her self and she had to decide whether she was good with that or not. To me, she's made her choice already by the beginning of TLoU2, but I think the resonance of the decision is something she'll be grappling w/ throughout the game.

I was really convinced that Ellie would be killing Joel in TLoU2, but i dunno
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,697
Many people would say the ends justified the means and even I felt uncomfortable saving her and killing everyone during that sequence. And Ellie based on everything we know about her would agree

No one should have confidence that the Fireflies wouldn't have fucked it up even if the vaccine was created.

All it would take is one bandit group to kill them for the vaccine to be lost forever. After all the Fireflies are terrorists on their last legs, if they start screaming, "We got a vaccine!" no one is going to believe them.

I'm not arguing in favor or against the Fireflies at all. I'm simply talking about Ellie and how she is getting portrayed in the story. She herself makes it very clear that she does not condone Joel's actions, that it's not what she wanted. Hell, Joel himself knows it, that's the very reason he lies to her. The Fireflies might not have known what Ellie's reaction would have been. But we, as the players, absolutely do.

I disagree. Marlene was being a hypocrite. She was both speaking for Ellie and also not letting her give the final say on it.
 

krae_man

Master of Balan Wonderworld
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,603
Creating, manufacturing, and distributing a cure was outside of the capabilities of humanity at the end. Joel saved Ellie from dying for nothing.
 

OniBarubary

Member
Nov 30, 2017
124
i dont think that her knowing he was lying was in debate that much.

her reaction to the lie is the whole conundrum

I don't get how people didn't get that. She doesn't look happy when saying okay.

Never underestimate how violently obtuse people are. I wasn't exaggerating, I had dozens of conversations with separate people who just did not understand she knew he was lying.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,545
I disagree. Marlene was being a hypocrite. She was both speaking for Ellie and also not letting her give the final say on it.

You are not disagreeing with me, because that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not arguing for or against Marlene. I'm not arguing for what she or the rest of the Fireflies did. I'm ONLY talking about Ellie. Ellie, towards both Joel and the player in both her actions and words, made it clear that she has no problem with death ("I'm still waiting for my turn") and that she wants to help as much as she can. Joel knows this. It's the reason he lies to her. Ellie knows that Joel knows this - it's the reason she gives him the opportunity to confess to what he has done. And most of all, we, as players know this.
 

Xeteh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,387
According to the synopsis for TLOU Part 2:


So unless the synopsis is lying, Ellie didn't leave Joel. In fact the other trailers have implied that Joel is hard on people she goes on patrols with because he's worried.

They do seem to live in a pretty decent sized community so perhaps she does still live on her own, wouldn't surprise me to find out Joel is some sort of hermit that lives off on the edge and keeps to himself.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
I mean, I thought that was fairly obvious.

I don't think she's done with Joel, but she definitely seemed like she was about to start putting up a few more walls between the two of them, even as she decided to go along with it and remain with him as a kind of adopted daughter.

That's not even uncommon. A ton of kids grow to resent their parents in ways, even as they continue loving and having relationships with them. Hell, I'm one of em.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,697
You are not disagreeing with me, because that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not arguing for or against Marlene. I'm not arguing for what she or the rest of the Fireflies did. I'm ONLY talking about Ellie. Ellie, towards both Joel and the player in both her actions and words, made it clear that she has no problem with death ("I'm still waiting for my turn") and that she wants to help as much as she can. Joel knows this. It's the reason he lies to her. Ellie knows that Joel knows this - it's the reason she gives him the opportunity to confess to what he has done. And most of all, we, as players know this.

Again it's survivors guilt. When did taking advantage of someone with survivors guilt become a okay thing?

Until Ellie herself actually was on the table and saying that she was ready. Then it's all up in the air. Any further is just others putting what they think she wants over what she actually needs.

Which if there is anything she needed it was probably consoling. Not to have her skull torn open.
 

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,853
Hey Joel is an asshole but I ain't going let a 14 year old girl decide to her own life and the fact that she wasn't informed that she is going to die is just more fucked up.

I would have done the same and I am not ashamed of admitting it.
 

supernormal

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,147
I mean that's exactly why the ending is so powerful. Not because he doomed mankind and whatnot, it's the characters and their relationship. That's why it hurts, because of what it implies for their relationship going forward.
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,999
According to the synopsis for TLOU Part 2:


So unless the synopsis is lying, Ellie didn't leave Joel. In fact the other trailers have implied that Joel is hard on people she goes on patrols with because he's worried.

They could both settle in the community, but not live together or have a good relationship. After all, Joel wants to be by her and Tommy had wanted Joel to settle in Jackson County if he could work his problems out.

It would actually be interesting if Ellie is keeping Joel at a distance while he keeps trying to be there for her since that's all he really has in his mind.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Hey Joel is an asshole but I ain't going let a 14 year old girl decide to her own life and the fact that she wasn't informed that she is going to die is just more fucked up.

I would have done the same and I am not ashamed of admitting it.
I'd argue that being 14 in that world, growing up like she did, is not really comparable to a teen in our society.

What's really great about the ending is that Joel's actions are completely understandable, even though they're disturbing and make him unlikable
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,697
They could both settle in the community, but not live together or have a good relationship. After all, Joel wants to be by her and Tommy had wanted Joel to settle in Jackson County if he could work his problems out.

It would actually be interesting if Ellie is keeping Joel at a distance while he keeps trying to be there for her since that's all he really has in his mind.

I mean it's likely they don't live together. But not living together isn't a sign of a bad relationship. Unless every child ever who leaves their parents house has an inherit bad relationship.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
I think the most interesting aspect of TLoU 2 will be seeing this relationship unfold. I feel like Ellie sort of compartmentalized what happened and drifted away from him. It's bound to explode though. I can't wait.
She still likes/loves him. In Neil's interpretation he says she hates him for taking away that decision (possible cure / dying for it). That doesn't mean she hates him alltogether. So Ellie "hating him now / maybe killing him later on) is pure nonsense imho.
.....I ain't going let a 14 year old girl decide to her own life and the fact that she wasn't informed that she is going to die is just more fucked up.

I would have done the same and I am not ashamed of admitting it.
Yep. Well said. Same here.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,170
I am pretty sure that if their relationship hasn't fallen apart by the beginning of TLoU2, that we will see a depiction of it falling apart with Ellie possibly killing Joel at some point. But also, I feel like that this is kind of too obvious of a move so maybe they will swerve it somehow. They said it's the longest game they've made so there could be a lot stuff packed in there and I don't think the premise they are hinting at with the trailers will be the overarching plot of the game

another fanfictionish idea could be that Ellie becomes so entrapped in lust for revenge with joel trying to kind of trying to bring her out of it, but with his decision in the last game rendering that impossible, i dunno, in the end I don't think it's going to be anything happy I guess
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
I'm just pre-emptily gonna say "oh no, what is you doing baby" before I read, hopefully this won't be bad.

Will edit with results.

Edit: it was bad, for me at least, I feel like Neil doesn't understand that when you make a direct sequel, you kind of invalidate any and all other interpretations of your previous work's ending... also I liked the ambiguity a lot, it was the endings defining quality to me, I shouldn't have read his interpretation, but that's on me.
 
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SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,019
You could hear the detachment in her voice, like everything became different between them after the ending. Thats why the ending was really sad to me since even though he did that for her he lost her still all together in terms of how close they were.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
Like I said multiple times, I'm almost certain that Joel and Ellie drifted away from each other after Part I.

Ellie most likely wanted to be away from him after the ending of the first one, Joel then told Tommy to keep her safe at Jackson's while he stays not too far from them. That would explain why Tommy is the one conformting her in the trailer, he probably became her new father figure after Joel.
Something happens to Dina. Ellie leaves and Tommy tells Joel to find her because he, himself, can't leave Jackson since he's the leader.
That could lead in a very interesting arc for Joel, one of redemption, of him trying to help her deal with her hate because he knows very well how destructives that can be.

And then he dies because of her actions, making her finally realise that revenge is pointless and will just hurt the people around you.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,746
USA
I think I like the first interpretation better, but I suppose that interpretation would close the book on a sequel. You could dead end the series right there, which I think a lot of people were fine with.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
I've always took it to be very clear that Ellie knows he's lying. The performances communicate that clearly.

It wouldn't be surprising that she kind of accepts it but still resents him.

well, as long as she also recognizes that, at the same time, she wouldn't be around to either accept or resent him if he hadn't done what she resents him having done in the first place. which's kinda a tricky one, eh?...