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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
So over this weekend I had the displeasure of passing a few kidney stones; the pain was excruciating enough that it prompted me to go to the hospital immediately, especially since the experience was accompanied by spurts of blood in my urine before every time I would pee.

Once I arrived at the hospital, the ED team's emergency response was pretty prompt: I was asked to pee in a cup (clean catch). Thankfully, I had been drinking a ton of water, so quickly providing a midstream sample was not a problem for me. What was a problem was the fact that my sample was apparently "spilled" after I gave it to them and I wasn't asked to provide another one until 30 minutes later. Mind you, no treatment for the pain was offered at this time, and nothing else had been done (and I dare not ask for any pain meds, lest I be perceived as trying to get a 'fix'); I was just sitting on the bed, in pain, wondering why the hell I even went there in the first place. The bedside manner of the doctors and nurses was terrible, btw. You would have thought I was coming in for a routine check-up given how nonchalant and inattentive they were.

Anyway, the urinalysis eventually comes back and shows small amounts of blood in the urine without any signs of infection, which they believed to be consistent with my report about me passing kidney stones instead of something like a UTI. They then ordered a CT scan, which I eventually took. While I waited for the results, a few doctors came in to ask me about the state of my condition. I explained that after peeing so many times, the pain in my right flank had subsided (but still present) and the blood in my urine was no longer visible to me. I also took this time to explain something else I've been experiencing: random chest pain and chest numbness. I'll provide you all with the context I gave them:

I contracted COVID at the beginning of the year and ended up developing a severe case of pneumonia. I distinctly remember a point where it felt like my chest literally caved in and I could hardly breathe. This experience was also accompanied by a feeling of numbness in my chest. During this time, my pulse oximeter readings would frequently dip in the 92 to 94 SpO2 range. Even after "recovering", I've had trouble breathing and chest pain/numbness ever since, which has prevented me from doing any physical labor or even talking for long periods of time, which has significantly impacted my ability to work; for all intents and purposes, I'm physically disabled due to COVID, and I haven't been able to get much help about it.

After explaining the above to the doctors, much to my dismay, they informed me that they just want to focus on the kidney stone situation and that I can talk to my primary doctor about any chest symptoms. **Something else I should add here is that these chest symptoms have been a concern for me all year, but I kind of just adapted to not being able to breathe as effectively as I used to, and even still some days are harder than others, so it's very distressing to see doctors be so dismissive about such a serious concern for me.** I also mentioned that I occasionally have really sharp pains on the upper right part of my abdomen that seem to come and go about 20-30 minutes after eating a big meal, but as with everything else, the doctors seemed unconcerned.

Anyway, the CT results finally come back and they tell me that they couldn't see any kidney stones, and I likely already passed the ones that were there from before. I was honestly a bit relieved since I really didn't want to pass any more, but was still concerned that the pain in my lower back was still present, but the doctors suggested that the pain was likely due to the aftermath of the stones scratching the tubes connected to my kidneys and urethra and it would take some time for that to disappear completely, and I was satisfied with that explanation.

One of the doctors then asked me if I had any other questions, and I asked if they noticed anything else on the CT scan since it seemed like a full body scan and I've had so many complications. It was at this time that the doctor decided to mention that I appeared to have sludge in my gallbladder, but was nothing to worry about. Given their general dismissiveness, I was skeptical but ultimately accepted their explanation, got my discharge papers and went home.

The next day, the intensity of my lower flank pain returned, but with no kidney stones passing or blood after urinating. Later that day, I received further/more detailed information about my test results. It was at this time that I learned of three very alarming facts from the radiologist's :

  • Bibasilar atelectasis
  • Cholelithiasis
  • Punctate cortical calcification in the right kidney midpole.
For those of you like me who are confused by the medical terminology, they can be roughly translated in laymen terms to the following:

  • Partially collapsed lung (lower part)
  • Gallstone formation
  • The accumulation of calcium salts (precursor to kidney stones) have made small depressions in the midportion area of my right kidney (ripe for kidney stone formation)
Setting aside for a moment the concerns about my kidney and gallbladder, I was very disturbed to see the casual mention of the collapsed lung without so much as a word about it from the ER doctors. It would explain precisely what I have been dealing with for months and is potentially life threatening, and yet the doctors released me as if there was nothing wrong.

Suffice to say that my distress led me back to the hospital (with great consternation, since I'm now fully distrusting of every single staff member in building at this point), and I tell them about the CT findings. Mind you, I'm even more conscious of my chest problems since I'm now aware of the potential cause, which seems to be making my symptoms worse. Without fail, upon asking me about my concerns, the nurses and doctors seemed to exhibit an astonishing attitude of apathy regarding my situation. The first nurse tried to handwave the finding as me misreading the finding, essentially suggesting that since the sentence preceding it included the word "no", that "no" was a negation of the "Bibasilar atelectasis" impression as well. Frustratingly, I had to explain to her why she was mistaken and clearly misinterpreted the reading herself, due to the grammatical error in assuming a negation in one sentence also automatically applies to the next. She then apologized and said a doctor would speak with me shortly. The first doctor I spoke with flat out said that it was not something they are concerned about since many times such findings are a result of patients not taking deep breaths during the CT scan, and completely disregarded the fact that Bibasilar atelectasis can prevent deep breaths in the first place, making such a problem indistinguishable from a false positive and should probably require further investigation. I also pointed out that a potential false positive shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum when the patient has classic symptoms that perfectly align with a legitimate finding. She said they'd look into it.

Hours later, it wasn't until a black doctor saw me that I felt like I was treated like an actual patient in need of care. She was sympathetic to my concerns and explained that their options were limited in the ER but that she would give me a spirometer so that I could attempt to strengthen my lungs and reopen the part that has closed while I wait for my appointment to see a pulmonologist. She also confirmed that they were able to see kidney stones still in my kidneys and that I will eventually have to pass them, while my gallbladder will likely need to be removed. While I appreciated her sympathy and transparency, I felt utterly devastated and betrayed by this hospital.

Today, I can feel the excruciating pain again so I know I'll have to pass more stones, but more than anything, I'm just fucking tired. It should not have to be like this. My skin color shouldn't disqualify me from getting proper care, and yet that's exactly what's happening. I just feel so defeated.

Sorry for the long rant but I really needed to get this out. It's also important for people to know that medical racism is real and isn't just made up statistical bullshit. This shit is exhausting.
 
Last edited:

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,236
John Oliver had a segment on this a while back. It's pretty shitty stuff. I hope you get to feeling better. I haven't had to deal with kidney stones yet, but I did have to have my gallbladder removed. It wasn't a big deal at all, though I can understand why you'd not be looking forward to it after your experiences.
 

aerts1js

Member
May 11, 2019
1,383
The healthcare system here is such a shit show that I'll probably have to retire to another country in the future.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,647
a Socialist Utopia
Sorry to hear about this, that's a lot to take in. Both the complications you have to deal with all at once as well as the shitty racism.

Gallbladder removal at least is a fairly uncomplicated procedure as I understand it, so that should be the least of your worries. My wife had hers removed earlier this year and she was fit for fight after about a week. The procedure itself took 25 minutes while I waited in an adjacent room - they could do it with a camera through three minor incisions. For most people there will be no big difference after the procedure, except for the relief of not having to deal with the excruciating pain. My wife probably recovered slower than average because the stone was large and her liver and pancreas had both been poisoned by the gall running back to those organs.
 

Realyst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,163
…and this is why it's so difficult for black Americans to consistently go in for preventative care appointments.

There's no telling how many people would have decent health today if not for so many missed diagnoses by healthcare providers that really don't care as much as you would think. There have been times where I've had to do like you OP. I've had to actually prove to my attending that I can actually understand symptoms and diagnoses, and have had to tell them when something is wrong.

It's even worse on the mental health side. So much PTSD and depression goes undiagnosed, which if properly diagnosed would've prevented so many mental breakdowns and suicides.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,105
Gentrified Brooklyn
Sorry man.

I remember this dark nytimes article that showcased just how different we get treated.

www.nytimes.com

A ‘Rare Case Where Racial Biases’ Protected African-Americans (Published 2019)

Fewer opioid prescriptions meant fewer deaths (possibly 14,000), but the episode also reveals how prevalent and harmful stereotypes can be, even if implicit.

Ive also had issues where doctors ignored real problems. Its also a weird fucked up existential crisis situation; like I am vulnerable here, how human is someone in pain. But NOAP, stfu and take some asprin, I don't care to figure out what's wrong, there's a white patient next door
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,496
Earth, 21st Century
I'm sorry to hear that. Medical issues are scary enough without people dismissing them and making you distrustful of doctors. Thank God for the one lady who was upfront with you.

I really hope you get your lung sorted out soon. That seems like the biggest issue and the one the doctors should have jumped on from the beginning.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Schedule the gallbladder thing as quick as possible. They hurt as hell when you get actual attacks.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,897
"But CRT is a hoax?"

We're so behind in this country.
 

JustinBailey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,596
So over this weekend I had the displeasure of passing a few kidney stones; the pain was excruciating enough that it prompted me to go to the hospital immediately, especially since the experience was accompanied by spurts of blood in my urine before every time I would pee.

Once I arrived at the hospital, the ED team's emergency response was pretty prompt: I was asked to pee in a cup (clean catch). Thankfully, I had been drinking a ton of water, so quickly providing a midstream sample was not a problem for me. What was a problem was the fact that my sample was apparently "spilled" after I gave it to them and I wasn't asked to provide another one until 30 minutes later. Mind you, no treatment for the pain was offered at this time, and nothing else had been done (and I dare not ask for any pain meds, lest I be perceived as trying to get a 'fix'); I was just sitting on the bed, in pain, wondering why the hell I even went there in the first place. The bedside manner of the doctors and nurses was terrible, btw. You would have thought I was coming in for a routine check-up given how nonchalant and inattentive they were.

Anyway, the urinalysis eventually comes back and shows small amounts of blood in the urine without any signs of infection, which they believed to be consistent with my report about me passing kidney stones instead of something like a UTI. They then ordered a CT scan, which I eventually took. While I waited for the results, a few doctors came in to ask me about the state of my condition. I explained that after peeing so many times, the pain in my right flank had subsided (but still present) and the blood in my urine was no longer visible to me. I also took this time to explain something else I've been experiencing: random chest pain and chest numbness. I'll provide you all with the context I gave them:

I contracted COVID at the beginning of the year and ended up developing a severe case of pneumonia. I distinctly remember a point where it felt like my chest literally caved in and I could hardly breathe. This experience was also accompanied by a feeling of numbness in my chest. During this time, my pulse oximeter readings would frequently dip in the 92 to 94 SpO2 range. Even after "recovering", I've had trouble breathing and chest pain/numbness ever since, which has prevented me from doing any physical labor or even talking for long periods of time, which has significantly impacted my ability to work; for all intents and purposes, I'm physically disabled due to COVID, and I haven't been able to get much help about it.

After explaining the above to the doctors, much to my dismay, they informed me that they just want to focus on the kidney stone situation and that I can talk to my primary doctor about any chest symptoms. **Something else I should add here is that these chest symptoms have been a concern for me all year, but I kind of just adapted to not being able to breathe as effectively as I used to, and even still some days are harder than others, so it's very distressing to see doctors be so dismissive about such a serious concern for me.** I also mentioned that I occasionally have really sharp pains on the upper right part of my abdomen that seem to come and go about 20-30 minutes after eating a big meal, but as with everything else, the doctors seemed unconcerned.

Anyway, the CT results finally come back and they tell me that they couldn't see any kidney stones, and I likely already passed the ones that were there from before. I was honestly a bit relieved since I really didn't want to pass any more, but was still concerned that the pain in my lower back was still present, but the doctors suggested that the pain was likely due to the aftermath of the stones scratching the tubes connected to my kidneys and urethra and it would take some time for that to disappear completely, and I was satisfied with that explanation.

One of the doctors then asked me if I had any other questions, and I asked if they noticed anything else on the CT scan since it seemed like a full body scan and I've had so many complications. It was at this time that the doctor decided to mention that I appeared to have sludge in my gallbladder, but was nothing to worry about. Given their general dismissiveness, I was skeptical but ultimately accepted their explanation, got my discharge papers and went home.

The next day, the intensity of my lower flank pain returned, but with no kidney stones passing or blood after urinating. Later that day, I received further/more detailed information about my test results. It was at this time that I learned of three very alarming facts from the radiologist's :

  • Bibasilar atelectasis
  • Cholelithiasis
  • Punctate cortical calcification in the right kidney midpole.
For those of you like me who are confused by the medical terminology, they can be roughly translated in laymen terms to the following:

  • Partially collapsed lung (lower part)
  • Gallstone formation
  • The accumulation of calcium salts (precursor to kidney stones) have made small depressions in the midportion area of my right kidney (ripe for kidney stone formation)
Setting aside for a moment the concerns about my kidney and gallbladder, I was very disturbed to see the casual mention of the collapsed lung without so much as a word about it from the ER doctors. It would explain precisely what I have been dealing with for months and is potentially life threatening, and yet the doctors released me as if there was nothing wrong.

Suffice to say that my distress led me back to the hospital (with great consternation, since I'm now fully distrusting of every single staff member in building at this point), and I tell them about the CT findings. Mind you, I'm even more conscious of my chest problems since I'm now aware of the potential cause, which seems to be making my symptoms worse. Without fail, upon asking me about my concerns, the nurses and doctors seemed to exhibit an astonishing attitude of apathy regarding my situation. The first nurse tried to handwave the finding as me misreading the finding, essentially suggesting that since the sentence preceding it included the word "no", that "no" was a negation of the "Bibasilar atelectasis" impression as well. Frustratingly, I had to explain to her why she was mistaken and clearly misinterpreted the reading herself, due to the grammatical error in assuming a negation in one sentence also automatically applies to the next. She then apologized and said a doctor would speak with me shortly. The first doctor I spoke with flat out said that it was not something they are concerned about since many times such findings are a result of patients not taking deep breaths during the CT scan, and completely disregarded the fact that Bibasilar atelectasis can prevent deep breaths in the first place, making such a problem indistinguishable from a false positive and should probably require further investigation. I also pointed out that a potential false positive shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum when the patient has classic symptoms that perfectly align with a legitimate finding. She said they'd look into it.

Hours later, it wasn't until a black doctor saw me that I felt like I was treated like an actual patient in need of care. She was sympathetic to my concerns and explained that their options were limited in the ER but that she would give me a spirometer so that I could attempt to strengthen my lungs and reopen the part that has closed while I wait for my appointment to see a pulmonologist. She also confirmed that they were able to see kidney stones still in my kidneys and that I will eventually have to pass them, while my gallbladder will likely need to be removed. While I appreciated her sympathy and transparency, I felt utterly devastated and betrayed by this hospital.

Today, I can feel the excruciating pain again so I know I'll have to pass more stones, but more than anything, I'm just fucking tired. It should not have to be like this. My skin color shouldn't disqualify me from getting proper care, and yet that's exactly what's happening. I just feel so defeated.

Sorry for the long rant but I really needed to get this out. It's also important for people to know that medical racism is real and isn't just made up statistical bullshit. This shit is exhausting.
Thanks for posting in such vivid detail. Can you give your general geography or name the hospital youre dealing with? I am not saying this isnt racism, as I am certain you have demonstrated / seen enough markers to demonstrate that its a huge part of it, but I will also say this sounds like an experience similar to most experiences one could have in a healthcare system rotted to the core by capitalism, especially in the rural or less educated parts of the United States. That is to say that in addition to your experience being informed by race, it is also a massive symptom of how capitalism has basically ruined healthcare - the point isnt to correct or help your health, its to profit off of its failure. So assuming you are in the United States - the chief thing I have learned is you kind of have to be your own doctor (which you seem to have already done based on the way you phrase things!). This is all a horrible result of for profit healthcare, but I just wanted to say that in addition to what you are identifying as racism, there are other nasty horrifying things afoot.
 

LordByron28

Member
Nov 5, 2017
2,348
If it makes you feel better my dad who was white had been telling doctors that he wasn't feeling well for months after a surgery to remove a kidney stone. He was told it was all in his head and everything was fine. We had to take him to an ER where they determined he had a lot of internal bleeding but they couldn't do anything about it and sent us on our way for my dad to bleed out. We had to wait days for an opening in a hospital and by the time we got there. The team said if he had come an hour or two later he would've been dead and asked why we didn't go to an ER. Turned out the complaints he had been telling them for months was not in his head and he had an aggressive and rare form of stage 4 cancer. Also all of the hospitals equipped and experienced enough to handle it were full with covid patients. He ended up dying 6 months later. It's not just racism, it's a shitty Healthcare system.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,558
I'm sorry that your concerns weren't heard. I will mention that your gallbladder does not need to be removed if you are not have symptoms.

And while medical racism definitely exists and is terrible I would contend that most of this related to how shitty our healthcare system is overall.

Also have if you are having recurrent stones you should see a urologist if you haven't already
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,591
Lordy OP that sounds awful. Glad you were able to find someone eventually who gave a shit.

If it makes you feel better my dad who was white had been telling doctors that he wasn't feeling well for months after a surgery to remove a kidney stone. He was told it was all in his head and everything was fine. We had to take him to an ER where they determined he had a lot of internal bleeding but they couldn't do anything about it and sent us on our way for my dad to bleed out. We had to wait days for an opening in a hospital and by the time we got there. The team said if he had come an hour or two later he would've been dead and asked why we didn't go to an ER. Turned out the complaints he had been telling them for months was not in his head and he had an aggressive and rare form of stage 4 cancer. Also all of the hospitals equipped and experienced enough to handle it were full with covid patients. He ended up dying 6 months later. It's not just racism, it's a shitty Healthcare system.

I think in America we get the lovely combination of a shitty healthcare system that will regularly compound its issues one some with racism. Like a shit cherry on a shit sandwich.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,067
Arkansas, USA
ER staff have had their empathy and compassion drained from them. If you want quality healthcare you have to establish a relationship with a good primary care physician that can and will refer you to specialists for severe problems.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
US health care has been racist, particularly towards black women. Sorry you're going through this OP.

Damn.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,438
I used to work in healthcare, albeit in technology. Believe me, some doctors can't be told anything even if it's completely out of their area of expertise. They are the expert and you are the peon. Granted not all doctors are like this but I saw A LOT of it.
 

egg

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,565
US health care has been racist, particularly towards black women. Sorry you're going through this OP.

Damn.

And this terrifies me, my mom has to have surgery on her eyes and it stresses me out so much because she is a black woman.
I'm hoping for the best though and that everything goes well and that she will recover from it.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Don't really have much energy to respond to everyone right now but thank you all for your responses. Hopefully my pulmonology referral will come quickly as the spirometer they gave me is actually making it harder for me to breath since my lungs are too weak to handle the breathing exercises.
 

twopenny

Member
Oct 27, 2017
208
This is so sad to read. I hope you're hanging in there OP. My partner had covid in March of 2020 — she teaches high school and one of her students got a whole class sick. The amount of shitty support she's had from her healthcare is so depressing, so all I can say is my heart goes out to you. The long covid shit is absolutely no joke; I can't imagine dealing with more than that at a time
 

pokeystaples

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,333
This sounds like almost every Kaiser experience I've ever had for the past 5 years and I hate this for you. I am so, so sorry you're going through this.
 

Slack Attack

Member
Oct 28, 2017
818
Doctors fucking suck
This is a pretty shitty generalized statement to make.

The ER is specifically purposed for emergencies. In the OPs case, the ER docs were looking for a specific diagnosis and possible actionable treatment for the OPs chief concern which was excruciating lower back pain presumably from kidney stones. The CT imaging was performed to make sure OP didn't have an obstructed ureter which could cause significant kidney injury and/or infection. If he did have an obstruction, they would have called in a Urologist to work OP up for a potential surgical procedure.

The other findings on OPs CT scan, while certainly concerning, were not emergencies and could be followed up with by a primary care physician which is a better use of resources. The gallstones are not an emergency. The atelectasis is not an emergency. The existing stones in the kidney are also not an emergency. All of these can be addressed by a primary care physician and likely a visit to a general surgeon for the gallstones.

I agree with OP that this particular ER should have done a better job at addressing his pain with medications and explaining some of the CT findings. I hope he was told to either follow up with his PCP regarding the CT findings or given a referral to a PCP for these issues if he didn't already have one.

To just make a blanket statement that doctors fucking suck is pretty ignorant and disrespectful. Especially in light of the current pandemic the world is facing that doctors have been sacrificing their time and health for over the past year and a half.
 

SilentSoldier

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,449
Don't really have much energy to respond to everyone right now but thank you all for your responses. Hopefully my pulmonology referral will come quickly as the spirometer they gave me is actually making it harder for me to breath since my lungs are too weak to handle the breathing exercises.

The chest pain that comes with the breathing through the incentive spirometer is very common and a lot of times patients will stop because the pain is too much. I would keep using it though because what we fear is that atelectasis will develop into a consolidation or fluid which could then lead to a pneumonia.

I'm also so sorry about what you experienced, the ED can be a trying place for many patients and I don't doubt that the recent upsurge in Covid cases is adding to that exasperation. I try my best to be sympathetic to every patient that comes in ( granted, I do have less contact with Covid patients which is probably why I haven't succumbed to compassion fatigue, yet). Also as a POC, it's very important that I realize the biases in medicine that cause more patients to have experiences like yours in order to prevent them from happening.

Make sure you also make an appointment with a urologist for those stones, especially if they're recurrent.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,215
This is a pretty shitty generalized statement to make.

The ER is specifically purposed for emergencies. In the OPs case, the ER docs were looking for a specific diagnosis and possible actionable treatment for the OPs chief concern which was excruciating lower back pain presumably from kidney stones. The CT imaging was performed to make sure OP didn't have an obstructed ureter which could cause significant kidney injury and/or infection. If he did have an obstruction, they would have called in a Urologist to work OP up for a potential surgical procedure.

The other findings on OPs CT scan, while certainly concerning, were not emergencies and could be followed up with by a primary care physician which is a better use of resources. The gallstones are not an emergency. The atelectasis is not an emergency. The existing stones in the kidney are also not an emergency. All of these can be addressed by a primary care physician and likely a visit to a general surgeon for the gallstones.

I agree with OP that this particular ER should have done a better job at addressing his pain with medications and explaining some of the CT findings. I hope he was told to either follow up with his PCP regarding the CT findings or given a referral to a PCP for these issues if he didn't already have one.

To just make a blanket statement that doctors fucking suck is pretty ignorant and disrespectful. Especially in light of the current pandemic the world is facing that doctors have been sacrificing their time and health for over the past year and a half.

Nothing you've said here is wrong, BUT not everyone has good experiences with doctors. I don't think I've ever had a hospital or doctor visit that I would give a thumbs up. Some have been just absolutely mediocre, some were just useless, and some prolonged the issue. In my experience, most doctoring has been throwing a dart at the board and hoping for the best, or for some reason they've made up their mind what it is, and lean hard into that first instinct. And this is from a white guy, I couldn't imagine the minority experience.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
I'm assertive whenever I deal with doctors, because there is racism baked into our medical industry. I make a serious effort to accompany my partner when she goes in for an important appointment, and I take detailed notes.

Sorry for your experience OP
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Nothing you've said here is wrong, BUT not everyone has good experiences with doctors. I don't think I've ever had a hospital or doctor visit that I would give a thumbs up. Some have been just absolutely mediocre, some were just useless, and some prolonged the issue. In my experience, most doctoring has been throwing a dart at the board and hoping for the best, or for some reason they've made up their mind what it is, and lean hard into that first instinct. And this is from a white guy, I couldn't imagine the minority experience.
Your anecdotal experiences, while valid, don't change the fact that blanket statement claiming doctors fucking suck is nonsense
 

FinalRPG

Member
Oct 27, 2017
573
The emergency room isn't the place to bring up all of your miscellaneous concerns. You're going to need an ongoing primary care doctor that can spend more time with you for that. A lot of healthcare providers in general aren't very sympathetic, and they can't be since they are seeing people in pain each and every day
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,215
Your anecdotal experiences, while valid, don't change the fact that blanket statement claiming doctors fucking suck is nonsense

I wouldn't have put it as bluntly (or said fucking) as the other poster. I think both can be true... they can be hardworking, brilliant at some things, and as a team (with nurses, specialists, the right tools and medicine at their disposal, ect) can and do save lives, but on an individual level... can also suck.
 

Maximum Spider

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,964
Cleveland, OH
I'm so sorry for everything you've gone through. I truly hope you don't have to deal with any more medical professionals like that.

As a white (Latino) guy, I don't have to deal with the same issues but I have noticed that in the past few years that more than a few doctors just seem checked out or disinterested. Obviously being overworked plays a massive part in that (not that it should excuse any racist biases).
 

Chizzanger

Member
Mar 26, 2019
13
Bibasilar atelectasis is not life threatening and just about every CT scan done in the ED is going to mention it because the dependent portion of your lungs collapse a bit while you are laying down for a scan.

That being said, your pain should have been treated better and I'm sorry for the bad ED experience.
 

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,197
Decapod 10
I have noticed that in the past few years that more than a few doctors just seem checked out or disinterested. Obviously being overworked plays a massive part in that (not that it should excuse any racist biases).

Also I think, like teachers, they have to put up with so much bullshit these days that it drains any love they had for the profession away. They are not only overworked, but many of their patients adopt an adversarial relationship with them from the get-go and litigation is an ever-looming threat. Thanks to the Internet, every Tom, Bill, and Susan thinks they know what is wrong with them and are always second-guessing the doctor or simply arriving on the scene for the first appointment declaring their diagnosis and asking for treatment.

Doctors aren't perfect. They make mistakes, sometimes deadly ones, but we've basically gotten to a point where we insist they are perfect or ELSE. It would probably affect my interaction with people after years of that, yeah. I'd probably adopt an attitude of "They're just lucky I don't up and quit!"

Please note - I am not arguing against doctors being regulated, held to a higher standard, malpractice suits, etc. I'm simply stating that all this results in a lot of stress and a generally unpleasant profession to work in.
 

Idde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,652
Sorry to hear man. I have plenty stories of people being told to go home because they're fine, when it later turns out they're absolutely not (even someone who suffered permanent brain damage from a missed aneurysm). And they're mostly from white people.

But it's really fucking telling that it took a black doctor to take you seriously, when so many others turned you away.
 

ChubbyHuggs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,262
I don't see how this is racism? Doctor's just generally suck. That's how almost every doctor I've seen has been. I'm 5'8 and weigh 250. Anytime I've had a problem it goes back to my weight. I had surgery recently and a ton of follow up appointments. Any time I've brought up something besides my surgery they immediately shut it down. They said anything that falls outside of what my appointment was scheduled for would need to be schedule for a different appointment.
 

MrMysterio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
Thanks for writing all that down - it needs to be heard and understood.
Mistrusting a hospital you're currently being treated in is an existential nightmare… so thanks again for writing it all out. It's real. It's actually real and it's fucked up and it needs to stop.
 
Dec 12, 2017
3,000
There is obviously racial bias in medicine, but it's pretty common for doctors to ignore their patients concerns. The majority of serious medical issues that doctors have either misdiagnosed or said "you're crazy" is a greater number than doctors who have actually worked with me to figure out my medical issues. I rarely ever feel comfortable with a single medical opinion these days.
 

zoltek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
That sounds tremendously frustrating! Even as a physician I find that when I am a patient, I am often left unsatisfied by my care.

While there is well-documented racial bias when it comes to providing medical care, your experience, as you have described it, does not seem racially-motivated. Your experience is more likely a reflection of what visiting the ER is like these days. The ED's very existence revolves around the diagnosing and treating/triaging of emergencies as efficiently as possible and moving on to the next patient, because there is always a next patient. Not to mention, it is one of the most stressful working environments in medicine, especially these days, and yes, many become jaded, robotic, and dismissive. I have never met a patient/person who has told me "That trip to the ER was fantastic!". It's a sucky place and triaging those most in need is sacrosanct, unfortunately at the expense of others who feel less cared for.

When you walked into the ER, your complaint was one of flank pain and blood in the urine so that's what the ED team investigated and diagnosed. Your other findings, while potentially medically relevant at some point, were not considered emergencies and thus could be handled on an outpatient basis. This is status quo when it comes to ED visits.

As others have stated in this thread, atelectasis on a CT scan is borderline irrelevant because it can be noted in almost every scan. It just means a portion of your lung is not fully inflated at the time the picture is being taken, but does not mean you have a statically or perpetually collapsed lung. The calcifications identified in your kidney could be precursors to additional kidney stones or simply reflect healing in the setting of prior kidney injuries. In and of themselves, they are not dangerous or clinically relevant at that time. The stones in your gallbladder, if causing symptoms like they do in yourself, can be treated on a non-emergent basis as an outpatient -- even though I am sure it's uncomfortable to have belly pain after eating certain foods! With that said, it's not uncommon for there to be stones in the gallbladder without symptoms and those don't need to necessarily be treated.

It sounds like the frustrations from your visit(s) stems from a lack of empathy or a caring attitude from those treating you and you are absolutely correct: that should not happen in an ideal world. Your connecting better with a black doctor says as much about your increased comfort with others of color as it does about that physician and that's perfectly ok. Certain patients like certain doctors better. With all that said, again, based on your retelling of the events, none of the dysfunction appears racially motivated in this case. You may have left the hospital unsatisfied, and god knows I know that feeling, but your medical care in addressing the reason for your visit was medically appropriate.

P.S. They should have provided you with instructions/prescriptions for pain control though. I may have missed that in your OP.
 

DocTarHeel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
88
That sounds tremendously frustrating! Even as a physician I find that when I am a patient, I am often left unsatisfied by my care.

While there is well-documented racial bias when it comes to providing medical care, your experience, as you have described it, does not seem racially-motivated. Your experience is more likely a reflection of what visiting the ER is like these days. The ED's very existence revolves around the diagnosing and treating/triaging of emergencies as efficiently as possible and moving on to the next patient, because there is always a next patient. Not to mention, it is one of the most stressful working environments in medicine, especially these days, and yes, many become jaded, robotic, and dismissive. I have never met a patient/person who has told me "That trip to the ER was fantastic!". It's a sucky place and triaging those most in need is sacrosanct, unfortunately at the expense of others who feel less cared for.

When you walked into the ER, your complaint was one of flank pain and blood in the urine so that's what the ED team investigated and diagnosed. Your other findings, while potentially medically relevant at some point, were not considered emergencies and thus could be handled on an outpatient basis. This is status quo when it comes to ED visits.

As others have stated in this thread, atelectasis on a CT scan is borderline irrelevant because it can be noted in almost every scan. It just means a portion of your lung is not fully inflated at the time the picture is being taken, but does not mean you have a statically or perpetually collapsed lung. The calcifications identified in your kidney could be precursors to additional kidney stones or simply reflect healing in the setting of prior kidney injuries. In and of themselves, they are not dangerous or clinically relevant at that time. The stones in your gallbladder, if causing symptoms like they do in yourself, can be treated on a non-emergent basis as an outpatient -- even though I am sure it's uncomfortable to have belly pain after eating certain foods! With that said, it's not uncommon for there to be stones in the gallbladder without symptoms and those don't need to necessarily be treated.

It sounds like the frustrations from your visit(s) stems from a lack of empathy or a caring attitude from those treating you and you are absolutely correct: that should not happen in an ideal world. Your connecting better with a black doctor says as much about your increased comfort with others of color as it does about that physician and that's perfectly ok. Certain patients like certain doctors better. With all that said, again, based on your retelling of the events, none of the dysfunction appears racially motivated in this case. You may have left the hospital unsatisfied, and god knows I know that feeling, but your medical care in addressing the reason for your visit was medically appropriate.

P.S. They should have provided you with instructions/prescriptions for pain control though. I may have missed that in your OP.

As a practicing physician I was going to post a reply discussing the nature of the ED and it's role in healthcare but this beat me to the punch and did it in a way better than I ever could have, lol.

I would also like to add that physician burnout is a very real thing (especially among ED docs) for a myriad of reasons that have only been exacerbated by covid.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,264
Thanks for posting in such vivid detail. Can you give your general geography or name the hospital youre dealing with? I am not saying this isnt racism, as I am certain you have demonstrated / seen enough markers to demonstrate that its a huge part of it, but I will also say this sounds like an experience similar to most experiences one could have in a healthcare system rotted to the core by capitalism, especially in the rural or less educated parts of the United States. That is to say that in addition to your experience being informed by race, it is also a massive symptom of how capitalism has basically ruined healthcare - the point isnt to correct or help your health, its to profit off of its failure. So assuming you are in the United States - the chief thing I have learned is you kind of have to be your own doctor (which you seem to have already done based on the way you phrase things!). This is all a horrible result of for profit healthcare, but I just wanted to say that in addition to what you are identifying as racism, there are other nasty horrifying things afoot.

This. And I work in clinical research at a great hospital, and even we struggle with nurses and providers. And being Black in medicine can be awful.
 
On the subject of whether or not the account in the OP actually constitutes medical racism
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Now that I'm in a little bit of a better headspace and in less pain, I'd like to address some of the "that's not racism, that's just ED being ED" comments in this thread, some of them from doctors who seem to have come here to defend their collective honor or something, I don't know.

First of all, if you're not black, and you're responding to a black person who is complaining about racism in any capacity, you really need to check yourself before you fix your lips (or in this case your fingers) to argue why that isn't the case; you yourself have your own racial biases to work against and need to keep that in mind, no matter your qualifications. And even if you are black, there is internalized racial bias to contend with due to decades of living in an environment that has been systemically racist, before dismissing the concerns of other black people complaining about racism they experience.

Secondly, I did not and could not give a full and perfect account of the hospital setting and interactions at the hospital, despite such factors most likely impacting my perception of how I was being treated while I was in the ED's care on a subconscious level, such as:

  • Discrepancies in the tone and body language of the ED team members when interacting with adjacent patients whose races appeared to differ from mine compared to when the ED team members were interacting with me
  • Discrepancies in the ED team members decisions to offer treatment for acute pain for adjacent patients whose races appeared to differ from mine compared to the ED team members' negligence to offer treatment for my acute pain
Keep in mind that the above factors are not precisely quantifiable in the sense that the patient who believes that they are experiencing racism can precisely measure the delta between how they are being treated and how other patients are being treated, and for many patients of color, such discrepancies are often simply regarded as "racist background noise" because we don't have the time nor luxury to complain about them, document them, or give much attention to them, especially when we are in need of medical attention. Nevertheless, such factors, in part, comprise the lens through which we view how we are treated in cases of potential medical emergencies.

In my case, there were multiple issues with my first visit that indubitably should have never happened:

  • Neglecting to offer treatment for my pain, despite me exhibiting clear signs that I was having bouts of acute pain in my right flank
  • Lying about the CT results (there were actual gallstones, not just sludge, and kidney stones were still present and needed to be passed), and this misconduct was not uncovered until my second visit where the only black doctor I encountered investigated the issue while everyone preceding her acted as if I merely didn't understand procedure
  • Neglecting to address chest pain issues, despite it being a strict policy for this specific ED (and is indicated on a red sign at the entrance that such symptoms should be treated as a medical emergency)
  • Releasing me without treatment for the pain
And when you look at the above facts and filter them through the context of the discrepancies in the interactions I experienced compared to other patients who appeared to be of other races, it is difficult to argue that it isn't at least possible that the poor care I experienced at that hospital wasn't at least partially racially motivated.

And finally, I did not make this thread to prove that I experienced medical racism, nor did I make this thread to complain that all of my health problems weren't fixed by the ED. I made this thread to vent out of frustration as a black patient who has been through this shit way too many times, while hearing of white folk who go to the same hospital without experiencing such problems (aside from the general unpleasantness of being treated at an ED).

Proving medical racism is very difficult without systematic methodology because poor treatment at an ED is almost always multivariate, and I can't provide a comparative statistical analysis that controls for all non-racial factors every time I have a bad ED experience. Having said that, as a black person, what I do have is experience. Plenty of it. I've been to all kinds of EDs over the course of my life and some are definitely worse than others. Visiting the emergency department is never going to be a pleasant experience, but it should be a humane one, and sometimes I am treated humanely, and sometimes I am not. I don't expect people who haven't experienced medical racism to know the difference between just having a generally shitty experience at the ED and experiencing medical racism, but I can assure you that I do, and the experiences aren't remotely the same. Sorry if I wasn't able to articulate all of these points in my original post, but I honestly wasn't in the right headspace to remember that as a black person, I have to be super fucking careful/thoughtful with how I explain shit if I don't want to be dismissed out of hand. I'll try to remember that next time.
 
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Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
www.aamc.org

How we fail black patients in pain

An expert looks at how false notions and hidden biases fuel inadequate treatment of minorities’ pain.

"Black people's nerve endings are less sensitive than white people's." "Black people's skin is thicker than white people's." "Black people's blood coagulates more quickly than white people's."

These disturbing beliefs are not long-forgotten 19th-century relics. They are notions harbored by far too many medical students and residents as recently as 2016. In fact, half of trainees surveyed held one or more such false beliefs, according to a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science. I find it shocking that 40% of first- and second-year medical students endorsed the belief that "black people's skin is thicker than white people's."

What's more, false ideas about black peoples' experience of pain can lead to worrisome treatment disparities. In the 2016 study, for example, trainees who believed that black people are not as sensitive to pain as white people were less likely to treat black people's pain appropriately.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,485
Medical racism is an issue that needs to be addressed. Much like the very foundation of this country, rooting out the explicit racism built into the system is difficult, though. It will need to pretty much be ripped apart to the bones and rebuilt.

Having a doctor in the ED listen to you and actually help you in a tremendous feat. I'm glad you were able to find someone with enough social compasion and medical professionalism to sit and talk with you.

The ED is a shit place to be and unless you're within a certain period of time post-stroke, actively having a heart attack, or involved in a major traumatic accident, you're not a priority to anyone in that department.

Sometimes an urgent care may be the best place to go if one is open.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
Sorry to hear about your situation. As someone who has also had my gallbladder removed, I can safely say it really isn't a big deal. You may find that you can no longer digest food quite as well anymore but your body will adapt quickly.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
I went for a week with a dislocated shoulder once because the first doctor didn't catch it on th x-ray. My pain tolerance also worked against me. Probably more incompetence than racism since the first place was in bumfuck but I guess you never know.

I pretty much just stick to seeing specialists these days after getting a feel for what might be going on and that's generally worked well.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
I have a black Primary Care For a reason, Hospitals in general can be pretty bad and this is part of where its good to actually see your primary as much as possible to get the best initial care as you can. Also with this pandemic I can see where this gets even worse now with people having a lot less patients in the ER etc in hospitals at the moment. Just compounds the issues.
 

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,978
Blackpool, UK
Sorry you went through this brainchild. As a white guy I've had a few instances of doctors being a bit dismissive, or putting everything down to my obesity etc. But nothing even close to what you've described here. As you say, going to a hospital in severe pain and needing help is bad enough, without the doctors lack of empathy and care making that shit worse.
I recently had instances of strange sensations in my upper left chest, along with a few instances of irregular heart beats. At no point did I feel like the doctors didn't give a shit. I experienced no real pain, certainly nothing close to the level of pain you suffered, yet I was contacted late in the evening by my GP to go to my local hospital to be checked out thoroughly regarding any possible heart issues. They took bloods, they examined me, did an ECG, asked me a series of questions regarding what I was experiencing - and always listened intently and seemed like they gave a shit about my answers - and booked me in for a follow up test of a 24 hour heart monitor just to be sure they hadn't missed anything. I've never experienced anything like the dismissive attitudes you faced, and I don't think that can be easily swept under the rug as typical ED doctor behaviour. True, I'm in the UK so it's a different system, but one on one care shouldn't vary in quality THAT wildly. You certainly shouldn't be able to observe a different level of care for patients in the bed next to you. At the bare minimum, everyone should be listened to, treated with respect and have their medical results clearly and honestly communicated back to them. Even if the partially collapsed lung on the scan can be seen as a routine thing, not to be worried about, the fact they didn't even bring it up to you after you talked about your issues with your chest....it goes beyond incompetence, IMO.
Again, very sorry you had to go through that shit.