The reason why people don't like the "Batman = billionare bad/beats up poor/mentally ill take"

[DragonSJG]

So I'm sure many of us are no strangers to the criticism that Batman is bad cuz he's a billionare or he only beats up the poor/mentally ill. There is nothing with criticizing elements of a character and all and comics themselves have addressed this. However, I think the reason why people are tired of or dislike this take is because people use to like dismiss the character as totally and purely bad with no room for nuance or discussion, which is understandable as this misses other parts of Batman's character. Further, we then get people overlooking the good he does and agreeing with his villains on some bizzare takes. For example, people start acting like Batman is wrong when he stops Poison Ivy because "she's right that humans are destroying the environment" and yeah, she protects the environment but people forget Ivy is an ecofascist who wants to eradicate humanity to protect the earth, which is a very western take and overlooks that its capitalism really. So that's why I think people dislike this take

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

The Joker is almost assuredly not well, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need to be stopped because he's obviously dangerous just like all the other supervillains.
In reality most of them would have just been shot instead if they weren't captured by Batman.

Their facilities aka Asylums are deliberately outdated and ineffective so the game keeps going. Arkham needs to be messed up for any of it to work.

 

[Weiss]

I think it's perfectly, completely fine to be put off by Batman being a billionaire who beats up criminals and supervillains who have actual mental illness written into their characters. The latter in particular was a fucking terrible idea that came about when some jackasses in the 80s wanted to make their superhero comics Deeper and More Realistic.

Moreover, a lot of these takes are super casual, off the cuff comments made for laughs. Everyone on Earth knows why Batman has Robin (because it's a kid's comic and kids want to project themselves onto Robin so they can hang out with Batman themselves) but it's funny to crack jokes about how Batman dresses this little kid in bright primary colours and sends him out to fight mobsters.

If you're concerned about the lionizing of a billionaire as a superhero, well you're completely right to. If you have a problem with the lionizing of a billionaire and then proceed to keep reading stories about that billionaire complaining that he should do all the things he does in-comic anyway but don't crop up much because Batman filing his taxes isn't what anyone reads a superhero comic for, then I'm legally allowed to throw tomatoes at you until you stop.

 

[dlauv]

Batman sucks for a lot of reasons. He's essentially a 40yo who does death defying ninja stunts in a $1b ninja furry costume because he thinks it's scary? He takes punches to the jaw and throws down with not only the super powered criminally insane, but also with like common criminals. He's a lot of times on death's door and is a lot of times the most overpowered character in the room. idk, I think the popularity of Iron Man really highlights how stupid Batman is.

 

[LProtagonist]

I'm just tired of talking about Batman. It's overdone. I don't want more Batman.

 

[Polyh3dron]

it's me. i'm people.

 

[Ducarmel]

They exist to keep the status quo mostly in their universe.

I dont think the hereos are really interested in real justice.

 

[dodo]

i am literally begging people to understand that a character doesn't have to be someone you'd personally agree with or want to hang out with in real life to be good

 

[Nakenorm]

Batman should've stepped down and given the mantle to Dick a long time ago.
He really could've accomplished so much more if he just focused on humanitarian efforts, Wayne enterprise and politics.

Like, Batman should've fixed Gotham years ago and then decided to fix the rest of planet together with the Justice League or something.

 

[Toriko]

Every superhero beats up the poor and mentally ill then

 

[Glimpse_Dog]

The Joker is almost assuredly not well, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need to be stopped because he's obviously dangerous just like all the other supervillains.
In reality most of them would have just been shot instead if they weren't captured by Batman.

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In the lore isn't the whole thing that Joker is actually 'super sane'. The world is mad and he's just playing the part. There's also speculation that Joker is a demon, and in some canon (Gotham for e.g.) he's not even a person, but an ideal.

I feel like the supernatural elements of batman kind of move it beyond 'beating up mentally ill people'.

 

[Baccus]

It makes sense when you think of Bruce as equally mentally ill (in a literary sense). Which some would argue he is. Some would say he's actually super rational, just like Joker has been described as not crazy but "hyper-sane". That's where things get interesting. Where something like "madness" can't be really described or identified. At the end there's, only reality. Batman is fun because he walks on the limit between reality and madness, crossing over it as the story or the character calls for it.

The billionaire thing is whatever. They should write something about it. Or make the character confront it.

 

[Weiss]

They exist to keep the status quo mostly in their universe.

I dont think the hereos are really interested in real justice.

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Correct, if the heroes solved Real Problems then there wouldn't be any superhero stories anymore.

Somewhere along the line in the DCU Hitler found the Lance of Longinus and it would mind control any superhero who stepped into Germany, so that's why the Justice Society of America didn't go and solve World War II on there own.

Comics be like that. They've got a vested interest in being the world outside your window.

i am literally begging people to understand that a character doesn't have to be someone you'd personally agree with or want to hang out with in real life to be good

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It was really problematic when Walter White started being mean about his drug trade.

 

[Mivey]

it's me. i'm people.

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You mean every single time anyone on the planet uses the word "people" in a generic sense, they actually refer to you?
Wow, that must be pretty weird being talked about so much, you're like the world's biggest celebrity.

 

[Imperfected]

I think the complaint about "beats up sick people" is more that his villains, with one or two exceptions, are complete putzes so now that DC's decided to portray him as a shining golden god who's a valid opponent for mutiversal threats, you kind of have to wonder if he couldn't maybe figure out a way to stop random crazies without beating the piss out of them in the process.

It's cognitive dissonance brought on by DC wanting Batman to simultaneously be a fun street level vigilante and The Most Important Man in DC Comics.

 

[Shoreu]

i am literally begging people to understand that a character doesn't have to be someone you'd personally agree with or want to hang out with in real life to be good

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This. We're thinking wayyyyy tooo hard about this?

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

In the lore isn't the whole thing that Joker is actually 'super sane'

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Which lore? Because that's stupid. Also insane and mentally ill shouldn't be treated as synonymous.

 

[TheJoebro64]

Batman is cool.

 

[Weiss]

Which lore? Because that's stupid. Also insane and mentally ill shouldn't be treated as synonymous.

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I think that was by Grant Morrison, who sometimes sucks.

 

[BossAttack]

Most people criticizing Batman have no idea what they're talking about, barely paid attention to the Nolan films, never watched TAS, and have never read a comic.


Bruce Wayne is practically a socialist whose bankrupted his own company on several occasions to aid Gotham. Yet, despite his philanthropy and crime fighting efforts Gotham remains a slum because its a comic cook and status quo must remain GOD. Also, Gotham is literally built on top of some evil swamp or whatever. So yeah, Gotham is LITERALLY cursed.

 

[julia crawford]

What else is there to his character?

Honestly i would sooner think twice about an ecoterrorist than a billionaire

 

[Stat]

i am literally begging people to understand that a character doesn't have to be someone you'd personally agree with or want to hang out with in real life to be good

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Agreed.

It drives me nuts. Is a better story Bruce Wayne stepping down as Batman and going after tax fraud? That sounds incredibly boring.

 

[Chainshada]

Every superhero beats up the poor and mentally ill then

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Kinda? But that's why I also love the Justice League Animated Series Flash, while I didn't read much DC growing up the episode with him/Orion/Batman meeting The Trickster made Wally one of my favourites.

 

[VAD]

I like the take that states Bruce Wayne is also a mentally scarred person. I mean Nolan chose Bale because he played Patrick Bateman first, a psychopath at worst, an unwell person at best.
People are right to be grossed out by a billionaire dressing as a bat, it's supposed to be gross. Doesn't mean it can't be a good story to tell.
Batman is the story of a deranged man fighting deranged people. Doesn't mean he can't be nice and heroic.

 

[DragonSJG]

Kinda? But that's why I also love the Justice League Animated Series Flash, while I didn't read much DC growing up the episode with him/Orion/Batman meeting The Trickster made Wally one of my favourites.

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Great scene

 

[Weiss]

What else is there to his character?

Honestly i would sooner think twice about an ecoterrorist than a billionaire

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"What else is there to his character?" is a pointedly strong question because there isn't much else to his character these days.Batman comics nowadays are written by and for the kind of person who thinks "man the Batman mythos sure is problematic."

DC let an asshole write a story about how much Batman sucks and he's bad for Gotham and it's up to a newly sane Joker to save the day by pulling out the tax file labeled the Batman Devastation Fund to prove he causes damage to the city while driving in his Batmobile and then it made them a million dollars.

I like the take that states Bruce Wayne is also a mentally scarred person. I mean Nolan chose Bale because he played Patrick Bateman first, a psychopath at worst, an unwell person at best.
People are right to be grossed out by a billionaire dressing as a bat, it's supposed to be gross. Doesn't mean it can't be a good story to tell.
Batman is the story of a deranged man fighting deranged people. Doesn't mean he can't be nice and heroic.

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Batman would be a deranged man if he didn't live in a universe where putting on tights and fighting crime wasn't the most moral action a person can take.

It's a superhero universe. Problems get solved by superheroes.

 

[dodo]

This. We're thinking wayyyyy tooo hard about this?

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it's not even that; it's just such a boring, surface level take on batman (who is a cartoon character no less). it doesn't take more than a cursory understanding of the character to recognize that "he's an asshole" and "dressing up as a bat and beating people up isn't helping as much as he thinks" are like the core themes in nearly every well regarded batman story.

batman the animated series revolves around this dichotomy. the fucking lego batman movie does too. media literally made for children

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

DC let an asshole write a story about how much Batman sucks and he's bad for Gotham and it's up to a newly sane Joker to save the day by pulling out the tax file labeled the Batman Devastation Fund to prove he causes damage to the city while driving in his Batmobile and then it made them a million dollars.

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wtf is this real? lol

 

[Khanimus]

I like the take that states Bruce Wayne is also a mentally scarred person. I mean Nolan chose Bale because he played Patrick Bateman first, a psychopath at worst, an unwell person at best.
People are right to be grossed out by a billionaire dressing as a bat, it's supposed to be gross. Doesn't mean it can't be a good story to tell.
Batman is the story of a deranged man fighting deranged people. Doesn't mean he can't be nice and heroic.

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That's not how the narrative frames it though. Whenever he's Batman, that's when the storytelling always goes "aw yeah, now we're getting to it! Look how awesome Batman is!"

 

[VAD]

"What else is there to his character?" is a pointedly strong question because there isn't much else to his character these days.Batman comics nowadays are written by and for the kind of person who thinks "man the Batman mythos sure is problematic."

DC let an asshole write a story about how much Batman sucks and he's bad for Gotham and it's up to a newly sane Joker to save the day by pulling out the tax file labeled the Batman Devastation Fund to prove he causes damage to the city while driving in his Batmobile and then it made them a million dollars.



Batman would be a deranged man if he didn't live in a universe where putting on tights and fighting crime wasn't the most moral action a person can take.

It's a superhero universe. Problems get solved by superheroes.

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Not in the Nolan movies.

 

[dlauv]

I like the take that states Bruce Wayne is also a mentally scarred person. I mean Nolan chose Bale because he played Patrick Bateman first, a psychopath at worst, an unwell person at best.
People are right to be grossed out by a billionaire dressing as a bat, it's supposed to be gross. Doesn't mean it can't be a good story to tell.
Batman is the story of a deranged man fighting deranged people. Doesn't mean he can't be nice and heroic.

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This is a fairly modern take that so many authors don't follow up on.

 

[Weiss]

wtf is this real? lol

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It's called Batman White Knight and this scene happens.

(that's the fucking Joker by the way)

 

[Deleted member 24052]

Yep, and that's where nuance and character development, as well as TONS of tension and drama, come into play with Batman and his stories.

There is a metric ton of depth to be had there with they psychology and social rammifications of Batman vs his villains. The morality of Batman vs the need to protect Gotham from the villains, vs the escalation of Batman merely existing making the villains worse and worse over time.

As a character, Batman is great. As a person, he is VERY flawed and needs the villains just as much as they need him. They even go into this a bit in the Dark Knight film which was obviously fantastic. The whirlwind of Batman vs his ultimate villain, the Joker, and how they play and feed off of eachother. How they catch everyone else up in that whirlwind, creating new and more tragic villains like Two Face. "It's about what's fair!" Nothing is fair, that's the tragedy.

 

[str4berryfields]

Most superheroes tropes struggle to survive in real world situations with the status quo in comic books. But i am all for in depth analysis and moral debates with this media.

 

[rusty chrome]

I'm just tired of talking about Batman. It's overdone. I don't want more Batman.

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That's how I feel about anything related to MCU, which is a lot more overdone especially now with Disney+ and Disney trying to milk anything they could get their hands on, just like they do Star Wars.

 

[Polyh3dron]

You mean every single time anyone on the planet uses the word "people" in a generic sense, they actually refer to you?
Wow, that must be pretty weird being talked about so much, you're like the world's biggest celebrity.

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[Weiss]

Not in the Nolan movies.

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Yeah that's Nolan's Batman. That's Batman in one specific context where "why is this man dressed as a bat?" is a good question.

 

[dodo]

That's not how the narrative frames it though. Whenever he's Batman, that's when the storytelling always goes "aw yeah, now we're getting to it! Look how awesome Batman is!"

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i mean to a degree all pop media is going to look cool, which is a conversation all on its own, but this really isn't true. batman is portrayed as being cruel, scary, antisocial, and self-destructive with unwavering clarity all the time. again, a children's cartoon managed to handle this with aplomb.

"batman is a jerk" isn't even subtext half the time, it's just text.

 

[LProtagonist]

That's how I feel about anything related to MCU, which is a lot more overdone especially now with Disney+ and Disney trying to milk anything they could get their hands on, just like they do Star Wars.

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At least the MCU stuff is exploring different characters. I can't stand so many takes on Batman.

 

[Kard8p3]

Kinda? But that's why I also love the Justice League Animated Series Flash, while I didn't read much DC growing up the episode with him/Orion/Batman meeting The Trickster made Wally one of my favourites.

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Honestly the DCAU is like a modern masterpiece, it does so much to make us love characters, hell it made Amazo my favorite DCAU supe.

(DCAU) Batman is a good dude at heart. He helped a dying super powered child find peace in their final moments.

I can't speak for other instances of batman media but in the DCAU he's not a bad dude.

 

[Deleted member 721]

wayne could give UBI to poor citizens and reform the city from ground with his money, improve the education and health system and salaries. could be a mayor and clean up the police and reform it etc.
I remember he did philantropy and created an asylum, but that stuff does not solve any of the structural problems of the city only with the symptons, as someone with PHD in criminology he should know that the problems of the city are systemic and a vigilante will never be able to solve it.

 

[Dougieflesh]

Batman is a terrible father

 

[Weiss]

wayne could give UBI to poor citizens and reform the city from ground with his money, improve the education and health system and salaries. could be a mayor and clean up the police and reform it etc.
I remember he did philantropy and created an asylum, but that stuff does not solve any of the structural problems of the city, as someone with PHD in criminology he should know that the problems of the city are systemic and a vigilante will never be able to solve it.

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Every single action Batman can take to make Gotham better has already happened and probably been acknowledged in-comic as a thing he uses his infinite money to do, we just don't see it as much because nobody is buying Batman comics to see Bruce Wayne fill out some paperwork.

 

[Furisu]

Tbh Bruce Wayne should run for president

Has anyone written such a story yet? Like an Elseworlds story where Bruce becomes president after besting Lex Luthor and funds mental health projects and then takes on the system that turned Gotham into what it is. I would read that.

Seriously though, it's comic books. It doesn't have to make sense. A story in which Bruce Wayne tries to introduce social reforms to Gotham City is not considered as exciting as Batman fighting the Joker for the umpteenth time in a twelve-issue story arc.

 

[davepoobond]

So poison ivy is an eco fascist but you don't like calling Batman a cop

 

[Weiss]

I hate these Power Rangers comics I'm reading where the team doesn't make Zordon use his magic powers and giant robots to fix all of Earth's social ills instead of fighting Rita Repulsa's monster invasions. It's bullshit. The Power Rangers are so problematic.

Usagi Yojimbo is a bad story because Miyamoto Usagi spends his days being a ronin instead of joining with a lord and helping improve everyone's lives. Yeah he saves the day all the time but what about the infrastructure?

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Meanwhile, Wally West captures his own mentally ill supervillains.

 

[dodo]

wayne could give UBI to poor citizens and reform the city from ground with his money, improve the education and health system and salaries. could be a mayor and clean up the police and reform it etc.
I remember he did philantropy and created an asylum, but that stuff does not solve any of the structural problems of the city only with the symptons, as someone with PHD in criminology he should know that the problems of the city are systemic and a vigilante will never be able to solve it.

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tony soprano could start taking therapy seriously and join the witness protection program and go legit

story premises aren't puzzles to be solved!!!

 

[sredgrin]

I could have sworn you literally made almost this exact same thread recently.

 

[Thorn]

I mean also Batman is how many years old at this point? Society is very different from Superhero Comics of yesteryear. Some concepts are gonna feel a little off these days.

Look at how much flack Insomniac got because Spiderman helps the police out.

Though at the end of the day I think Batman is a Billionaire basically just to explain how someone can have a fucking cave base and a batmobile.