While i respect the Dark Knight Returns (to some degree) - i don't really like the impact it had on future Batman writers in terms of Bruce's charcter

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

So recently Linkara just posted the first part of his reveiw of the Dark Knight Returns which you can see here.

It got me to think about my own feelings towards Dark Knight Returns in that for the most part - despite some things definetly having not aged well - i do respect the Dark Knights Returns for taking Batman in a different direction. My issue with the Dark Knight Returns is more what the subtext in the DKR ultimately led to in terms of Batman's charcterization over the years. In the book Bruce says "I will never forget Jason. A good solider. He honored me. But the War Goes On.". The Dark Knight Returns is the boom that popularized the whole idea of Batman fighting a constant war on crime and treating the Robins more like Soliders in a war then partners and sidekicks and personally i don't really like it.

The whole complete loner Batman who pushes pepole away from him and treating his fight on crime and seeing the Robins as pawns/soliders in the war on crime rather then equal partners and freinds. Thanks to the Dark Knight Returns - man pepole tried to copy Bruce's charcterization from the Dark Knights Returns with him being more of a loner, being obessive about his fight on crime to the point where he would constantly push away everyone around him and act extremely cold and callous to his allies and freinds. Pepole are free to disagree with me on this but i more like a hopeful Batman who is less of a loner and more open with the Robins as well as the rest of his allies. I just don't like Bruce being an emotionless brick wall.

I am curious what you think on this topic. Do you prefer a Batman who is more open and honest with his allies or do you prefer a more brooding,cold Batman popularized in Dark Knight Returns.

 

[Khanimus]

I like the book. I'm fine with it as a take, valid as anything else.

I hate what it inspired.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

I like the book.

I hate what it inspired.

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Yeah i definetly agree with you. I don't think the DKR is perfect but i do think it is at least a good book..it has had a negative impact on Batman in my opinion though.

 

[Khanimus]

Yeah i definetly agree with you. I don't think the DKR is perfect but i do think it is at least a good book..it has had a negative impact on Batman in my opinion though.

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I'll always stand by the writers that don't get sucked into the hole of making Bruce being a complete fucking asshole

(Batman and Robin #20, Peter Tomasi, Patrick Gleason, Mick Gray)

 

[hikarutilmitt]

K, I'm not sitting through a non-sequitur after non-sequitur review of a comic that's nearly as old as I am.

On the question posed: I enjoy it mostly, but I also don't like that it was the source of Batman's tone going forward for like 30+ years and any attempts at not making him grimdark 26/8 were ignored or outright hated. BTAS didn't help this, with it taking cues from the Burton movies and comics that those drew from. It's always a nice change of pace for me to see something like The Brave and the Bold without resorting to the Adam West Batman (Batman '66!) of being something that's not super serious Batman. Hell, the last episode of TBATB made a very specific point about some of this that was both scathing and tongue-in-cheek at the same time. I still want the Neon Talking Super Street Batluge.

The whole of DC seemed to go this way as a result, too, since "Batman was successful once we made him dark! let's make it all dark!" seemed to become the ethos. It's also made a whole lot of the DC stuff boring as hell because they end up all feeling the same in the end.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

I'll always stand by the writers that don't get sucked into the hole of making Bruce being a complete fucking asshole

(Batman and Robin #20, Peter Tomasi, Patrick Gleason, Mick Gray)

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Peter Tomasi always writes my favourite version of the Batfamily

 

[Keldroc]

I like the book. I'm fine with it as a take, valid as anything else.

I hate what it inspired.

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This is where I am, too. Much like Watchmen, it's a great work on its own, but so, so many other creators/editors took the absolute wrong cues from it.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

I like the book. I'm fine with it as a take, valid as anything else.

I hate what it inspired.

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Yeah, I hate the impact that the story has had on Batman's characterization. That and the Tower of Babel.

 

[KingM]

Writers, including Miller, had the worst takeaways from the book for his relationships with Robin. Even with all the soldier talk he still finds time to embrace Carrie Kelly after she's terrified during their time at the amusement park. I like the idea that behind all the bravado, Bruce is ultimately a guy trying to be a source of comfort and stability for his allies.
As far as depictions since then, welp the edgy era was going to happen no matter what and the Batman treating it like a war idea can work but it almost always fizzles out and makes him look like a crazier than usual vigilante.

 

[RedVejigante]

Dark Knight Returns is the weirdo cousin of Watchmen in terms of seminal de-constructions of famous super-hero tropes from which later writers took away all of the wrong lessons.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I can see the merits in the book. It's interesting.

I hate that it is one of the most important tiles in Batman history. Doesn't deserve it.

 

[RedVejigante]

I'll always stand by the writers that don't get sucked into the hole of making Bruce being a complete fucking asshole

(Batman and Robin #20, Peter Tomasi, Patrick Gleason, Mick Gray)

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This is such a wonderful moment. My only criticism is that it doesnt include his bat-daughters..

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

Dark Knight Returns is the weirdo cousin of Watchmen in terms of seminal de-constructions of famous super-hero tropes from which later writers took away all of the wrong lessons.

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Killing Joke as well in my opinion. The book makes me very clear that Joker was ultimately incorrect about pepole being one bad day away from snapping (see the fact he didn't break James Gordan) and ultimately was just trying to self-justify his actions to himself but ultimately he is a piece of shit.

 

[RedVejigante]

The notion that, post Dark Knight Returns, modern, canon Batman is inevitably heading towards becoming Dark Knight Returns Batman is as bullshit as when editorial decided that the Killing Joke was going to be Joker's canon origin.

 

[Khanimus]

This is such a wonderful moment. My only criticism is that it doesnt include his bat-daughters..

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I mean at this point, Babs isn't his daughter, and Cass/Steph hadn't been reintroduced into the New52 yet.

But yeah, I'd always be happy to see them all together

 

[RedVejigante]

I mean at this point, Babs isn't his daughter, and Cass/Steph hadn't been reintroduced into the New52 yet.

But yeah, I'd always be happy to see them all together

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My bad, it's been a long time, I had forgotten that they weren't properly introduced into continuity yet.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

Aka stop trying to glorify the Joker and Loner Batman, writers

 

[Mr. Poolman]

Republican Batman will never be a favorite of mine.
Hated it then, hate it now.

It has that Frank Milller stench.

 

[DragonSJG]

Oh this, glad someone said it
Yeah its a good story and all but it popularized the whole grimdark Batman revenge power fantasy and then we have Snyder misunderstanding it

 

[PennyStonks]

Isn't this the Voltage Vengerz dude? Gonna be hard to take his opinion seriously because of that lol.

Anyway. Ya Bruce should be all about Family with the whole parents thing. Him being a good dad is always welcomed. Hell, even the clear distinction that he is a father with sons and daughters is often left out too.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

Oh this, glad someone said it
Yeah its a good story and all but it popularized the whole grimdark Batman revenge power fantasy and then we have Snyder misunderstanding it

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Is it bad i think that Synder kinda missed the point of DKR. Like DKR Batman is not something to be glorfied

 

[echoshifting]

Year One, Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns, the holy trinity of Batman stories that defined him for decades. Almost every Batman movie draws inspiration from one or all of these, including, it seems, the new one.

I have mixed feelings about their influence. In recent years, some writers have managed to pull away from it a little. And I do think it has produced some good stuff. But it also produced All-Star Batman and Robin

Interesting that the classic and well-received animated series from the 90s mostly managed to avoid it, despite pulling some material from the Burton films. But as time went on, the shows that followed got sucked further and further into this definition of Batman

 

[Protoman200X]

I'm always open to new takes on a character (in addition to looking back on a character's history for inspiration), but consider me part of the club that never liked the impact The Dark Night Returns had left in the popular culture. Or the wrong lessons people had taken from both TDKR and Alan Moore's Watchmen.

It's probably why I have gravitated the takes on the character with shows like Batman: The Brave and the Bold or when the comics in the 1970's returned Batman to being a detective first, superhero second. At least with those interpretations, the viewer or reader isn't saddled with a miserable sad-sack who sucks the atmosphere for being an unapologetic asshole.

Also, when Richard 'Dick' Grayson took over in his mentor's absence for a spell, the result is a Batman who doesn't have quite as big a stick up his butt and displaying a dry wit. It's honestly refreshing.

 

[RedVejigante]

Aka stop trying to glorify the Joker and Loner Batman, writers

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The funny thing is, Frank Miller is also the one who, perhaps inadvertently, cemented the importance of the Batman family in Year One. If Bruce hadn't of rang that bell that caused Alfred to come save him, there would be no Batman at all.

 

[echoshifting]

I wonder how much the critical failure of Batman & Robin contributed to the mentality at DC that Batman should always be grimdark?

 

[RedVejigante]

I wonder how much the critical failure of Batman & Robin contributed to the mentality at DC that Batman should always be grimdark?

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I'd say there's defintely a connection. Batman and Robin's wannabe Batman 66 aesthetic helped bury the super-hero genre in the larger pop-culture for years. And fans and creators, as well as corperate number crunchers, looking to bring both "respectability" and profit back to the cape-comic medium ultimately turned to the works that were never intended to be wholly representative of the genre, just because they were tonally the polar opposite.

 

[TheMadTitan]

I mean at this point, Babs isn't his daughter, and Cass/Steph hadn't been reintroduced into the New52 yet.

But yeah, I'd always be happy to see them all together

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I'd go even a step further and say none of them are his children (except for Damian), they're merely adopted siblings with Alfred being the dad. But that's just me.

 

[KtotheRoc]

Is it bad i think that Synder kinda missed the point of DKR. Like DKR Batman is not something to be glorfied

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We saw that with his take on Watchmen.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

The conceit of the Dark Knight Returns is that the world has become so rigid, hypocritical and corrupt that a man dressing up as a Bat and fighting crime is so ludicrous that it could shock the system into changing.

Batman, as presented in the book isn't so much an alter ego as it is a primal force, a sort of demon or warrior spirit whose power Bruce Wayne harnesses but is almost constantly wrestling him for complete control

 

[Disco]

The conceit of the Dark Knight Returns is that the world has become so rigid, hypocritical and corrupt that a man dressing up as a Bat and fighting crime is so ludicrous that it could shock the system into changing.

Batman, as presented in the book isn't so much an alter ego as it is a primal force, a sort of demon or warrior spirit whose power Bruce Wayne harnesses but is almost constantly wrestling him for complete control

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great comic book, good animated movie too. I liked this take quite a bit, though not necessarily as one that should be definitive.

 

[kmfdmpig]

What makes Batman work so well is that you can have a wide range of stories with him that all feel in character. He's in space with the Justice League facing off against Darkseid.
He's on a rooftop tracking down a serial killer.
He's the straight man to Guy Gardner arguing with Martian Manhunter.

We see that in popular media too. Batman 66, Batman 89, Nolan all have different tones and approaches and that's a good thing. DKR is a great book, although not as good as Batman Year One (also by Frank Miller), but not all Batman writers for decades should have copied that tone/style. I think we've seen some that have broken away from that a bit: Tomasi with the focus on Robin, Morrison throughout their run, King when showing Batman and Catwoman happily together, etc...

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Arguably the real victim of the public's misinterpretation TDKR is Superman, who people interpreted as a stuffy stick up his ass government stooge who Batman has to beat up when in the actual story he's an incredibly empathetic, tragic figure who finds himself in an impossible situation

His monologue during the nuke section is beautiful stuff

 

[SageShinigami]

Morrison's Batman and Tynion's Batman are both a pretty far jump from what Miller wanted with the characters.

 

[Akira86]

yeah 'depressed loner bat' and 'batman loves joker' isn't as deep as some people at DC think it is.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

Morrison's Batman and Tynion's Batman are both a pretty far jump from what Miller wanted with the characters.

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Very much so, Morrison's Bat feels like the complete opposite of Miller's Bat

 

[FakePlasticTree]

I honestly agree OP, the Bruce Wayne I wanna see is the guy who's world's greatest detective who uses his smarts to solve crimes, and compassion to save people like how he was in the Justice League cartoon.

 

[Nazo]

I honestly agree OP, the Bruce Wayne I wanna see is the guy who's world's greatest detective who uses his smarts to solve crimes, and compassion to save people like how he was in the Justice League cartoon.

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I agree wholeheartedly. Funny enough, I have a friend who for years absolutely hated Batman as a character and one day I showed him that exact video and it changed his whole perspective on the character. So I definitely think there is something wrong with how Batman is portrayed at times and I think stuff like The Dark Knight returns is certainly part of the larger problem. It's to the point that the grim brooding loner stuff of Batman kind of detaches him from humanity and stops being a character people can empathize with.

 

[Punjabi_Hitman]

The fact he's constantly churning out new child soldiers that representation actually matches the character.

If he was compassionate he would not be making child soldiers in the first place.

 

[TheMadTitan]

The fact he's constantly churning out new child soldiers that representation actually matches the character.

If he was compassionate he would not be making child soldiers in the first place.

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But so is Superman.

He let Linda Danvers, his clone (who was effectively three years old but was essentially a young teen when he started), his cousin, his quasi-faux clone/daughter, and his son dress up in his name, and I'm probably missing a few.

Yeah, you could handwave it as them all being nigh invulnerable, but in terms of power scale, they were all no less in danger than any of the Robin's or individuals who took up Batman's cause. But no one ever makes this argument for Superman. Or Wonder Woman. Or the Justice League in general given that there's the various Teen Titans teams.

No one's ever going to say Superman and Wonder Woman aren't compassionate when they've put kids and teens in the same relative danger as Batman has.

 

[Punjabi_Hitman]

Yah but Batman literally tortures and beats his opponents into coma's or disabilities when all they did was basically rob a bank.

Then teaches child soldiers to do the exact same thing.

Superman is always fighting otherworldly beings that are either trying to destroy the world or or kill off or control human race.

Wonder Woman was basically trained to be a warrior from birth and was raised from a warrior race.

 

[TheMadTitan]

Yah but Batman literally tortures and beats his opponents into coma's or disabilities when all they did was basically rob a bank.

Then teaches child soldiers to do the exact same thing.

Superman is always fighting otherworldly beings that are either trying to destroy the world or or kill off or control human race.

Wonder Woman was basically trained to be a warrior from birth and was raised from a warrior race.

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1. No, Batman doesn't, nor does he tell others to do it.

2. Superman isn't always fighting otherworldly beings. There's plenty of people with superhuman strength on Earth who have tried to conquer the world.

3. Wonder Woman was trained to be a warrior from birth and also trained to be a scholar who understood diplomacy and non-violence were just as viable, if not moreso, than fighting in a lot of encounters and was deemed worthy enough to become the Goddess of Truth and Compassion in the Greek Pantheon for a reason.

Otherworldy is a weird argument anyway when we literally have hundreds of comics involving Batman doing this shit.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

It was an alright book but it's influence isn't needed. I think that's more out of comic properties though. I resubscribed to DC now that it's just comics and not that curated system and have been reading a lot of Batman and I don't think it actually had the effect on the books that it did on other media, at least not for decades.

And I hope when people say Snyder they mean Zack not Scott, because while Metal may be all over the place his new 52 run was pretty good and put a huge nail in the coffin of thinking Batman returns any of the jokers affection. Death of the Family was pretty much a celebration of the batfamily and a huge slap upside jokers face.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

It was an alright book but it's influence isn't needed. I think that's more out of comic properties though. I resubscribed to DC now that it's just comics and not that curated system and have been reading a lot of Batman and I don't think it actually had the effect on the books that it did on other media, at least not for decades.

And I hope when people say Snyder they mean Zack not Scott, because while Metal may be all over the place his new 52 run was pretty good and put a huge nail in the coffin of thinking Batman returns any of the jokers affection. Death of the Family was pretty much a celebration of the batfamily and a huge slap upside jokers face.

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Yeah we mean Zack

 

[Deleted member 25606]

Yeah we mean Zack

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I figured, but like I said been reading a lot of comics lately so have those on the mind versus film.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

yeah 'depressed loner bat' and 'batman loves joker' isn't as deep as some people at DC think it is.

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It's not an incorrect take on Batman but not one i am particularly intrested to read about

 

[Weiss]

DKR is remembered as the book that made Batman ultra gritty forgetting, as comic fandom is wont to do, that that grittiness was part of a wider story, much like Killing Joke.

Yeah Bruce is old as shit and Gotham's getting fucked up by gangs instead of supervillains, but then Batman comes back. The world is worse, the colour has been drained away, but there is no point in history where Batman won't be needed and so he fakes his death and goes underground so he can continue his crusade forever. In a story that came about when Frank Miller realized turning 30 meant he was older than Batman, it's a story about how you can keep liking these characters into adulthood, even if that comes with the unfortunate caveat that the story that conveyed this to us is one that made things super messed up and grim and we just ran with that shit for nearly 40 years and counting. If there is one thing this comic succeeded at it was erasing the Adam West show as the main pop culture interpretation of Batman, and while Batman doesn't have to be defined by that one show he sure as hell didn't have to be defined by this one either.

Really the victim of the story is Superman. He basically just gave up and became a tool of the establishment, and there's no way to interpret your way around that.

 

[Tavernade]

I like the take on Bruce as an Elseworlds but I much prefer the more empathetic and tragic version that's 'usually' the one used in modern mainline continuity. The annoying thing is that DKR Batman seems to have a weirdly outsized influence on Batman projects outside the comics line.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

I like the take on Bruce as an Elseworlds but I much prefer the more empathetic and tragic version that's 'usually' the one used in modern mainline continuity. The annoying thing is that DKR Batman seems to have a weirdly outsized influence on Batman projects outside the comics line.

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Yep sadly though honestly i wouldn't mind a live action adaption of DKR even though the cartoon was excellent rather then just picking small parts of it (like with Batman vs Superman and Joker)

 

[Veelk]

I honestly don't even respect it that much. I read it when I was young, so Miller's Old Batman take on the character just came off as a boomer griping about a world that past him by and I thought the art was ugly and it just offered a meanspirited, ugly interpretation of the characters. It wasn't like the worst comic I ever read or anything, but it was a very "That's it? That's the comic people have been harping about for years?"

His Year One is a far superior Batman story imo

 

[kmfdmpig]

I honestly don't even respect it that much. I read it when I was young, so Miller's Old Batman take on the character just came off as a boomer griping about a world that past him by and I thought the art was ugly and it just offered a meanspirited, ugly interpretation of the characters. It wasn't like the worst comic I ever read or anything, but it was a very "That's it? That's the comic people have been harping about for years?"

His Year One is a far superior Batman story imo

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While I disagree with your take about DKR (particularly the art), I agree that Year One is the better Miller Batman story (for my money it's the best Batman story of all time).