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I was hesitant to post about this, but after seeing this go conspicuously ignored nearly everywhere I thought it deserved a space for people to talk about it.

Fallout 76 has daily missions (called Daily Ops) which can be played in groups of 1-4. Every day the enemy faction, their mutations, and the map are randomized. It's fun content that's worth doing with friends to pick up some good stuff.

The public test server has a preview of upcoming content right now, and they're adding Chinese communists to Daily Ops. If you're motivated to do the daily missions, any given day you might randomly be required to kill a slew of Chinese people.





Now you might say, "but this is the lore of the game! The Fallout universe contains parodies of red scare attitudes and ultra-jingoism, and China helped cause the apocalypse in-game!"

To which I would say...does that matter? Since when is the lore of the game a good excuse for what is at the bare minimum not a good look? The lore argument reminds me of Kojima's defense for Quiet's outfit, or Daniel Vávra's excuse for keeping minorities out of Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Lore accuracy or historical accuracy is no excuse for questionable content...much less adding a minority faction for players to slaughter.

Imagine if they added any other racial group to mow down. Imagine a group of raiders who all happen to be Black. Would that be appropriate just because the lore writers say so?

Also they're all communists, and it's absolutely hilarious to kill as many socialists communists as you can in the year 2021, am I right guys?



If nothing else, this is indisputably tone deaf in an era when Asian Americans are being attacked on the streets. Just today they put away the shitstain responsible for the spa killings in March, only 4 months ago. I guess people are going to argue this lets gamers get out their sinophobic frustrations in a consequence-free environment?

Of course, as expected, bring this subject up in any gamer circles and prepare to be ridiculed:

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On a Youtube video discussing the PTS additions, a Chinese player expresses their misgivings:

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Altogether, this just doesn't feel like the sort of content that ought to be encouraged in this day and age.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,298
new jersey
It is insane how dehumanized China has become in the eyes of western people. These people don't give a fuck about Taiwan, or muslims in China. They just use it as a shield their racism against Chinese people.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,117
Boy, is this going to get walked back quickly.

No way this is making it off the PTS.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,014
They were already enemies in the game and also in previous FO games and lore. The whole basis of FO is a cold war that goes south and pits the US vs China. We are ok with all the other games that keep coming out where we kill Russians all the time?
 
They were already enemies in the game and also in previous FO games and lore. The whole basis of FO is a cold war that goes south and pits the US vs China.
Lore is no excuse, as mentioned in the OP.

Imagine if previous lore had established that Black people caused the apocalypse. Or LGBT people. Or Muslims...you get the idea. It's ok to add a mode dedicated to killing that group just because lore says that they're bad?
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
I really hope someone at Bethesda is smart enough to actually read the room here. Like for fucks sake. Sometimes things matter more than the narrative in a fucking video game.
 

Tacitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,039
Lore is no excuse, as mentioned in the OP.

Imagine if previous lore had established that Black people caused the apocalypse. Or LGBT people. Or Muslims...you get the idea. It's ok to add a mode dedicated to killing that group just because lore says that they're bad?

There are plenty of such games already. And they don't make it a joke like Fallout does.
 

Pasha

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
3,018
Lore is no excuse, as mentioned in the OP.

Imagine if previous lore had established that Black people caused the apocalypse. Or LGBT people. Or Muslims...you get the idea. It's ok to add a mode dedicated to killing that group just because lore says that they're bad?
I assume by the fact that you didn't answer the question means that it's ok in your view to kill Russians in video games?
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
They were already enemies in the game and also in previous FO games and lore. The whole basis of FO is a cold war that goes south and pits the US vs China. We are ok with all the other games that keep coming out where we kill Russians all the time?
My guy there is a huge difference here. Russians aren't being the targets of daily IRL hate crimes in America. Asian American's are constantly being targeted. If you can't see the difference there maybe step back from the keyboard and have yourself a nice thought exercise before you post again.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
They were already enemies in the game and also in previous FO games and lore. The whole basis of FO is a cold war that goes south and pits the US vs China. We are ok with all the other games that keep coming out where we kill Russians all the time?

It's literally just a "kill commies" mode in a co-op shooter lmao. It's a bit different than having a legitimate presence in a narrative.
 

Belvedere

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,684
I really hope someone at Bethesda is smart enough to actually read the room here. Like for fucks sake. Sometimes things matter more than the narrative in a fucking video game.
If that were the case this never would have even been considered. But yeah, surely there's no way this sees the light of day.
 

JaggiBaggi

Member
Nov 4, 2017
401
Very likely this won't make it out of the PTS. Bethesda has walked back a lot of similar decisions in FO76.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,213
Greater Vancouver
They were already enemies in the game and also in previous FO games and lore. The whole basis of FO is a cold war that goes south and pits the US vs China. We are ok with all the other games that keep coming out where we kill Russians all the time?
I don't know that I've seen a rapid uptick in anti-Russian hate crimes in the last year. Have you?

How about considering that hey, maybe there are aspects of your cold war fantasy games that maybe come off as less tasteful as the years go by and the climate in which they are released changes?
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,441
part of me naively hoped after the mess that was the Operation Anchorage DLC from Fallout 3 Bethesda would take on feedback and walk back the "haha kill commies" aspects of the series but... guess not :/ I shouldn't be surprised since it was in 4 as well, if not as in-your-face.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,934
I assume Bethesda's shit has to go through MS now, right? So MS is ok with this? I can't imagine they would be.
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,077
It's been a minute since I played 76, but supposedly these guys have been in the game since Wastelanders at 'The Deep' location and are Ghouls.

fallout.fandom.com

Communist (Fallout 76)

Communists are ghoulified infiltrators found in Appalachia. Originally People's Liberation Army infiltrators sent to investigate the Appalachia region, similar to the operation based in the Morgantown Mama Dolce's Food Processing nearby, the Communist soldiers survived the Great War thanks to...

They play a part in this quest:
fallout.fandom.com

Invisible Ties

Invisible Ties is a main quest for the Settlers in the Fallout 76 update Wastelanders. With the problem of breaching Vault 79 resolved, Paige moves on to the next problem on the list: Defeating the laser grids protecting the gold. Schematics indicate the laser grid is a high-powered...

Supposedly, although again I have yet to play the quest, the faction of the ghouls is a small group of remnants loyal to the war, whereas many others just put it behind them.

Regardless, I'm not sure why they are adding this to a Daily Op. Daily Ops are randomized dungeons iirc, and this faction seems to be a very small one that really only serves the point for the one mission. They could probably just reuse Ghouls or Assaultrons or Super Mutants or Raiders or what have you and basically have the same level gameplay wise, as there seems to be little lore reason for Daily Ops.
 

Barbarossa

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,271
Lore is no excuse, as mentioned in the OP.

Imagine if previous lore had established that Black people caused the apocalypse. Or LGBT people. Or Muslims...you get the idea. It's ok to add a mode dedicated to killing that group just because lore says that they're bad?
Isn't the lore the CCP? You know, the government actively committing genocide right now?
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I am going to be honest, I wish games would stop using nationalities and different races as enemies.

Ace Combat did it best. They have a fictional world inspired closely by our history and world. This way nobody gets turned into the enemy.

Now I don't have issues with having real world conflicts being portrayed but most games out there just suck at humanizing "enemies" so I would prefer they stop trying to do that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,058
It's one thing to criticize the Chinese government for all of its failings but yeah, murdering scores of Chinese people is simply a bad look in the current climate.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,014
For the record, I didn't erase the question from my reply, it was edited in after I posted.

I think others are covering it pretty well. There hasn't been a recent rise in anti-Russian hate crimes in the US.

But the enemy was literally the worst part of Chinese history that did reprehensible shit as well, performing genocide of their own, it's not modern day Chinese or just Chinese people, and the ones in the game are ghoul remnants of an invasion force in a goofy alternate history game. The timing of course sure is bad, that I'll give you that they should have maybe considered that better but they've been the background enemy already for so many games and it was fine.

But it's ok then all the anti russian sentiment just cause they aren't being hated on at the time either? Really should any game really be using any nationality or affiliation at this point that has ties to the real world?

I'd agree they need to read the room and see what is going on now though and probably not be doing this at this time.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,323
I assume Bethesda's shit has to go through MS now, right? So MS is ok with this? I can't imagine they would be.
Genuine question, did MS ever clean house at Xbox Brazil? Cause if not I'm assuming they give less of a shit than we'd like to hope about this sorta stuff in general
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,252
At this point I feel as though Asian plights are seen as unimportant because of Asian fetishism, and alt right people and other groups who fetishize Asian people. "how bad can things really be for them, then?"

But this same mindset has also been used as a bludgeoning tool against things like feminism for decades. "How bad can things be for women when they're sexy???"

It's always extremely disappointing.
 

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,097
San Jose, Costa Rica
But the enemy was literally the worst part of Chinese history that did reprehensible shit as well, performing genocide of their own, it's not modern day Chinese or just Chinese people, and the ones in the game are ghoul remnants of an invasion force in a goofy alternate history game. The timing of course sure is bad, that I'll give you that they should have maybe considered that better but they've been the background enemy already for so many games and it was fine.

But it's ok then all the anti russian sentiment just cause they aren't being hated on at the time either? Really should any game really be using any nationality or affiliation at this point that has ties to the real world?

I'd agree they need to read the room and see what is going on now though and probably not be doing this at this time.

Are the enemies the "Ghoul" enemies or the Chinese spies-remnants (humans) you saw in some of the quests?

I think this is probably an oversight of their randomized event generator, even if it would make sense "within the lore of the game", it does indeed sound inappropriate on the current times.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,720
I'll never understand why game developers don't hire someone to the easy job of "Director of Reading the Fucking Room" who has the power to prevent moves like this.
 

SCUMMbag

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
Yeah this isn't good. There's too much Asian hate going on these days as is.
 

Katmeister

Banned
May 1, 2021
2,434
How about considering that hey, maybe there are aspects of your cold war fantasy games that maybe come off as less tasteful as the years go by and the climate in which they are released changes?

Let's not forget what the cold war really was about too, it was America and western Europe fighting to eradicate a competing political ideology to avoid it spreading to their country and giving people some ideas. It never should have been a fantasy when it's literally capitalism murdering people to keep capitalism running uninterrupted.
 
May 17, 2018
3,454
Well, I guess MS were telling the truth about giving their teams complete freedom to do whatever they want, at least!
 
Are the enemies the "Ghoul" enemies or the Chinese spies-remnants (humans) you saw in some of the quests?

I think this is probably an oversight of their randomized event generator, even if it would make sense "within the lore of the game", it does indeed sound inappropriate on the current times.
From what I understand, they are remnant spies as well as feral ghouls mixed in. Which makes sense, as a driving force of this addition seems to be that it's cheap to reuse character models and voices this way.

Throughout the ops, they are all barking at you in Chinese as well.
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,077
Are the enemies the "Ghoul" enemies or the Chinese spies-remnants (humans) you saw in some of the quests?

I think this is probably an oversight of their randomized event generator, even if it would make sense "within the lore of the game", it does indeed sound inappropriate on the current times.
According to a post on reddit and the wiki, it's the ghoulified spies, a commander in "red scare" power armor, some feral ghouls and some liberators.

Sounds more thought out than just randomized.
 

Twister

Member
Feb 11, 2019
5,083
The timing on this is really bad, but I'd really like more context on this "lore/history doesn't make it okay."
If you're making a game about a real world historical event, like say, WWII or the Vietnam War or whatever else, is it also not okay to accurately portray the events that happened and people involved? I'm not saying this in a "the west/US is always right and the other side is super cartoonishly evil" type of portrayal (which is unfortunately usually what ends up happening), but I think historical accuracy is important.
Also, I think there's an important distinction between governments and the general civilian. For instance, I think the Chinese government is a corrupt, evil regime that hurts so many of its own and engages in genocide and other horros, but the general Chinese civilian can't be blamed for that. You don't choose where you're born and you can't be held responsible for what your leaders do especially when you live in a country where so much as saying you disagree with that leader can get you and your family killed or detained.
I think this issue has a lot of nuance and just giving it a blanket "we should never portray groups of people being killed in a video game" is also wrong because that does happen in real life in real wars and it would be next to impossible to make a war game without that. It's always one side versus another. The timing on this and the context of it in Fallout 76 is stupid and Bethesda should reconsider this release, but I'm not sure I can agree with the OP on this, at least not in the way I interpret it.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,728
The timing on this is really bad, but I'd really like more context on this "lore/history doesn't make it okay."
If you're making a game about a real world historical event, like say, WWII or the Vietnam War or whatever else, is it also not okay to accurately portray the events that happened and people involved? I'm not saying this in a "the west/US is always right and the other side is super cartoonishly evil" type of portrayal (which is unfortunately usually what ends up happening), but I think historical accuracy is important.
Also, I think there's an important distinction between governments and the general civilian. For instance, I think the Chinese government is a corrupt, evil regime that hurts so many of its own and engages in genocide and other horros, but the general Chinese civilian can't be blamed for that. You don't choose where you're born and you can't be held responsible for what your leaders do especially when you live in a country where so much as saying you disagree with that leader can get you and your family killed or detained.
I think this issue has a lot of nuance and just giving it a blanket "we should never portray groups of people being killed in a video game" is also wrong because that does happen in real life in real wars and it would be next to impossible to make a war game without that. It's always one side versus another. The timing on this and the context of it in Fallout 76 is stupid and Bethesda should reconsider this release, but I'm not sure I can agree with the OP on this, at least not in the way I interpret it.
there is literally no nuance to a video game quest that just tells you to kill a bunch of chinese people with almost zero context in america. not least of all now. there is no fucking hypothetical here. this sucks. the people who didn't even think about what this looks like should be ashamed of themselves.

like i'm not going to throw my benefit of the doubt about what they actually meant to a company that seemed to think that the world before bombs fell in the fallout lore was worth rebuilding when it was a fascistic, literal white supremacist horror show (not unlike the 50s that the more recent games are so nostalgic for) that somehow their games have always been really bad about accepting that fact.

how many asian, chinese people are legitimately humanized in fallout? we only get the red scare fever dream shit and at best somewhat sympathetic accounts of literal concentration camps in new vegas. this was never a good idea. you could maybe say it was a really bad one.
 
The timing on this is really bad, but I'd really like more context on this "lore/history doesn't make it okay."
If you're making a game about a real world historical event, like say, WWII or the Vietnam War or whatever else, is it also not okay to accurately portray the events that happened and people involved? I'm not saying this in a "the west/US is always right and the other side is super cartoonishly evil" type of portrayal (which is unfortunately usually what ends up happening), but I think historical accuracy is important.

I apologize for not going into detail on the subject, but I feel like arguments about historical accuracy were done to death back in 2018 when the creators of Kingdom Come Deliverance were defending the lack of any racial minorities in their game. I won't say "read these threads and get educated" because there really is a mountain of discussion to read through from that time, but suffice to say a lot of words have already been spilled on the subject.

www.resetera.com

[Waypoint] We Haven't Covered 'Kingdom Come: Deliverance.' Let's Talk About Why.

MOD EDIT: We have no intention of banning discussion of this game outright, and the views of the director can be relevant. However, it is clear that there will be no peace in these threads without tighter moderation and brighter lines. Therefore if that discussion is to happen we are laying...

www.resetera.com

Separating Games from their Creators - Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Hello Reset! An article has been making the rounds in German speaking Twittersphere and games media and I thought both its message, and its discussion topic were really important, hence my sharing it here. The "most authentic" history game of all time?! The phenomenally skewed case of Kingdom...

www.resetera.com

Daniel Vavra: "There is no propaganda" in Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Full article: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-04-19-vavra-there-is-no-propaganda-in-kingdom-come-deliverance

In some cases, historical accuracy is debatable enough to the point where you're willfully making a choice to exclude certain groups, when it couldn't possibly harm anything to slip some representation in.

But that's going a bit off topic from the thread.
 

Barbarossa

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,271
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissive Whataboutism
So, no fighting CCP soldiers in games? That's where we're at here? Everyone else is free game to kill in games except the world superpower that's committing genocide? Okay. That's uh, nuts. You can kill Americans in games all you want, pick your flavor.

This is a hair away from violent video games cause violence in the real world shit.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046
The bullet point that jumps out at me are that these are the only group in the game that doesn't speak English.

It's important to separate the Chinese Communist Party - who are a genocidal polity with an aggressive approach to information control - from Chinese ethnicity. People of Chinese ethnicity shouldn't be a shield for criticism of the CCP, which is a tactic we've seen employed, but criticism of CCP also does not provide an excuse for generalized SInophobia.

If Fallout struggles to make that same distinction, it's going to be that much more uncomfortable for their audience.
 

BotFixer

Member
Mar 16, 2021
156
It's not the exact same with Asian hate in the United States if you understand what I mean. Asians in the United States are often discriminated against for no reason and unprovoked. I don't play fallout 76 but it sounds like these Asians are enemies and I assume that they are hostile if they approach you. If the problem is besthesda making a quest to hunt these enemies, how different is it from a cod or battlefield game where they ask you to mow through enemy Asians. Unless these Asians are not hostile then you can't compare to problems we face in real life.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,728
So, no fighting CCP soldiers in games? That's where we're at here? Everyone else is free game to kill in games except the world superpower that's committing genocide? Okay. That's uh, nuts. You can kill Americans in games all you want, pick your flavor.

This is a hair away from violent video games cause violence in the real world shit.
it was pretty fucking tiresome when the only time you ever saw central asians when you were shooting 'terrorists' too

jesus fucking christ this site is exhausting.
 

waterpuppy

Too green for a tag
Member
Jul 17, 2021
1,818
Context matters, people. And this just seems very tone deaf considering the whole Stop Asian Hate thing.
 
It's not the exact same with Asian hate in the United States if you understand what I mean. Asians in the United States are often discriminated against for no reason and unprovoked. I don't play fallout 76 but it sounds like these Asians are enemies and I assume that they are hostile if they approach you. If the problem is besthesda making a quest to hunt these enemies, how different is it from a cod or battlefield game where they ask you to mow through enemy Asians. Unless these Asians are not hostile then you can't compare to problems we face in real life.

Part of the issue is the way we interface with games today.

I guarantee you will hear people on streams saying "what's the daily op...eyy looks like it's killing the Chinese today boys, let's get to it"
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,549
"It's the CCP".

OK, but when that appears to be the only Chinese representation in this sci-fi fantasy game, it's an issue.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,173
wasn't Fallout always leading up to some confrontation with "Evil Red China"?

then we got to castigate all the past games as well right? (which, maybe we should. above my paygrade)
 

LastNac

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,256
Refresh my memory, were the CCP the enemy in Operation Anchorage? I really can't recall.
 
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