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Oct 27, 2017
2,240
My legacy will be everything I posted today plus town getting confirmation I'm town. People will be more willing to listen to what I said in hindsight without the thought that I'm scum hanging in the air. If there's a player with a better investigative role than Monkey, they have their targets.
Hey Mao, next time please put together a short summary, because it's time-consuming to go back and read everything in context! Thank you very much, kisses and all, bye bye.

I'll try to get in contact with the actual dead players in the next hours. #'memberthedead

Very first observation to remember:
EoD2, Mao says scum holds back votes (or sth along the lines), Meatwad goes and votes Mao.
Gonna note this came out after I said scum was probably inclined to not vote me.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,625
So apparently you also got hit by the thing that got Maol and you just sort of casually mention it in the middle of the phase? So it's a multi-shot ability. Did it change your role completely like Maol's?

Why do you and Kopite think this was a swap situation and not a change?

I don't think it's a swap situation. I claimed because I didn't think it was one and only mentioned it to try to dispel that notion. My role changed completely as well, and I had no indication it was possible prior to last night when it suddenly happened.

Kalor, did you get a chance to do this?

Not yet.

Yeah, it was a really weak vote, without much conviction behind it, especially for someone who's been on that tip for a few days.

I haven't been on this "tip" for a few days. I was fairly sure they were town prior to today, hence why I didn't vote for them before.
 

malus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,947
The VA train on D1 only contained Monkey as not confirmed town. I'd say that makes either VA or Monkey highly suspect.
I still have a hard time scum reading Monkey after D2, so for me VA looks more suspicious.

Vote progression:
The turmoil vote was started by me. town!Fantomas follows.
The next three on turm are Meat, Monkey, Kalor. At least one of them is scum.

Mao voters not confirmed town Malus, Monkey, Fran. At least one of them is scum.
That spike on turmoil with Meat, Monkey and Kalor really sticks out and I agree we will have to look there. In my opinion Meat looks the most suspicious of the bunch since Scum would probably not want to bring a wagon too much into the lead for fear of sticking out.

Still, Monkey has her fingers everywhere it seems...

Other things of notice are the complete inoffensiveness of Kopites and Fat4Alls votes. Day1 Kopite votes Fat and sticks there until the end while Fat doesn't vote at all. Day 2 both vote Maol who was basically a foregone conclusion anyway.
 

malus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,947
I can see now why Fanto always pushes for more votes to be cast. It's hard to get information if there is no adequate voting history.

With that said I'll go ahead and vote: EzekelRAGE

I hope some more people put down a vote soon.
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,018
I'll weigh in in a couple of hours. On the plus side I'll actually stick around until day end this time
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
For when kits gets back:



It's really a very simple thing I've been trying to get you to answer:
Do you think there is a neutral who functions like an arsonist when we already had a role like Maol's that removed someone from the game outside of normal voting/NKs?

If not, then why are you so convinced it is a neutral?

Re: "general use of pocketing": If you're not referring to me but to the thread at large, who do you think is pocketing you? Does that align with your scum reads?

Okay now that I'm back-- the point was that... I removed "me" from the modifier of "pocketing"? Meaning, "Pockety". Meaning, attatching on to easy things and not doing a lot of substance and just kind of stringing the game along while putting in the work to look like you're working. These repeated assertions that my game theory surrounding my role is baseless is part of that, because you and I both know I have a great deal of substance to base my conclusions on. Outside of this discussion, however, you've seemed more towny to me as of late.

The fact that you do not agree with my working set of facts does not mean that they don't exist. However, your stubborn insistance to ignore all of that in favour of throwing your hands in the air and saying "I don't know, man" and telling us we should do the same-- that's not dealing with game mechanics, that's flipping the table over and telling everyone else to pick up the mess.

That being said, given the current discussions of the Day (INCLUDING things that you've contributed to), this discussion doesn't seem to have much merit as far as game solving goes. When we actually have a new theory or a new idea, we can come back to it. Right now we're just discussing why we aren't working from literally nothing. That's... Kinda weird, to me. I honestly do not see the point of it.

Hey Mao, next time please put together a short summary, because it's time-consuming to go back and read everything in context! Thank you very much, kisses and all, bye bye.

I'll try to get in contact with the actual dead players in the next hours. #'memberthedead

Very first observation to remember:
EoD2, Mao says scum holds back votes (or sth along the lines), Meatwad goes and votes Mao.

Damn, this is a good catch. Makes me a bit more suspicious of Meatwad.

____

Dunno what to think about Fat's claim. It's kind of weird coming after Mao's roleswap yesterday. Perhaps the most powerful member of scum has some kind of X-Shot role adjusting ability designed to make it easier for them to win the game? F4A seems to be really quiet outside of a few small instances. I can't tell if that's just due to IRL circumstances or an attempt to lay low. Laying low almost makes sense with such a Town power, but if it's an important Town power I don't see why outing yourself like this wouldn't make yourself a heavy target for NK's. I suppose, if F4A was telling the truth, that power role means he's not a cop or a doctor and thus not necessarily the role Scum would need to worry about the most.

This, however, brings me to a reason I was hesitant to reveal my role D2 even though I wound up doing it. The more roles out there, the easier it is for Scum to pinpoint the Doc or Cop. (DocCop? DogCop! No. Dammit, brain.) However, at this point, the cop's had two N's to give us checks, and I hope that they haven't hit anyone who's died and that they've left behind some good breadcrums. Mmm. Breadcrums. Anyone suddenly just get really hungry?
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
I haven't been on this "tip" for a few days. I was fairly sure they were town prior to today, hence why I didn't vote for them before.
So b4 today you townread the slot. Then today......you scum read it because you think I will coast. Something isn't adding up.
———————
Seems like you are avoiding these questions, so ill ask again. Why are you voting me over meat. Why are you scumreading meat.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
Not liking Fran, meat, or monkey after the read.

Fran sticks out yo me as someone who stokes the flames. Breaking down into discussing game balance with the mao vote seemed scummy too.

Meatwad is just there. seems to be on the edge for a lot of ppl but no real action. Day 1 made me feel like he was saved iirc.

Monkey I don't like how the mao stuff went down and her non answers to things. I don't like how she presented her role either with a red check.

Kalor seems scummy today based on his non answers to me and reasoning for voting me.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
At the moment I'm probably most suspicious of Fran and VA/Zeke. Though after Maols flip I'd say Fran went up on the town list by a few points. VA had some suspicious posts and Zeke hasn't done anything yet.
1. How does Fran look more townie after getting a townie lynched?

2. What posts from va were suspicious?
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
I don't think Meatwad is the right lynch here. Feels like scared town. People were ignoring him until I mentioned him being a low hanging fruit. Fran got the ball rolling in #320/21, which is giving me pause about him (fran) at least something to note later. Who has played with Meatwad before? Fantomas you're always a sucker for meta.

Vincent though, let's see how things develop.

Thoughts on this gorlak in regards to Fran/meat?
Nope. As I said earlier, VA had a bad entrance and then poofed and that's a classic scum move. Also some inconsistencies I don't love there. My vote today will be between him and turmoil unless something changes. Meatie, on the other hand, just flailed a little but also stayed in thread. There's scum Meat meta to compare to AND it felt less agenda-driven than some others.
This looks weak.
Dr. Monkey Fantomas Both of you have run games before, do you really think that a review team would allow a role where a player start the game with a death sentence? Even more, do you really think that NATIKO would use that role?

Scummy post I was talking about earlier.
Hello, If you had to vote right at this moment who would it be? I'm personally leaning towards Mao myself, Because of the strange nature of his roleclaim, the fact that he only seems to appear to defend himself, and seems set on the idea Fran is scum without considering other possibilities, and then there's the red check Monkey says she got.

Seems like the safest bet imo. Thoughts?
This is basically a summary of the various feelings posters had on mao. Mayb the Fran tunnel thing is their original input.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
I was trying to reread D2, but time is running out.

You know what? Fuck it.
I want Mao, turmoil and me to have our great we caught scum moment
Vote: Fran
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
==== DAY 3 VOTES ====
Day Start

EzekelRAGE (2 votes)
Kalor - #1,236
malus - #1,404 #1,407
malus - #1,407

Fran (2 votes)
Kitsunelaine - #1,212
Gorlak - #1,418

Dr. Monkey (1 votes)
Gorlak - #1,344 #1,418
Fat4all - #1,406

Kalor (1 votes)
Dr. Monkey - #1,278

Kitsunelaine (0 votes)
Gorlak - #1,225 #1,344

Not voting: Meatwad, Fran, Kopite, EzekelRAGE, Fandorin

Post Counts:
Dr. Monkey: 50 Gorlak: 44 EzekelRAGE: 31 Kitsunelaine: 30 Kopite: 22 Kalor: 16 Fran: 11 malus: 9 Fandorin: 9 Fat4all: 8 Meatwad: 4

Current Countdown:
70ei0vlvpe



Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
 

Meatwad

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,653
USA
Meatwad is just there. seems to be on the edge for a lot of ppl but no real action. Day 1

Same could be said for Vincent. In fact I went back and your predecessor in your role was all over the place and seemed like he wanted to be present and not noticed. Also Vincent wanted to find "safe" wagons. When he voted me D1 He admitted he had zero justification for it and then switched his vote to Turmoil when he recieved pushback on my vote.

Then he spent most of day 2 talking to Monkey about her role and meekly trying to push Fran and Mao before abandoning that line towards day end. Vincent spent the game trying to play it safe and made no bold moves or did anything that would get him noticed. Which reads as anti-town to me

So just putting that out there
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Morning all. I'll be here until EoD, though at work.

I'm fine with all wagons this phase, but the more appealing one to me now is Meatwad's. I hope he can join us this phase soon.

VOTE: Meatwad
For Gorlak:


I have to go to a meeting, but I'll give some thoughts afterwards.
I suck so much at reading those graphics or yours lol
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,625
So b4 today you townread the slot. Then today......you scum read it because you think I will coast. Something isn't adding up.
———————
Seems like you are avoiding these questions, so ill ask again. Why are you voting me over meat. Why are you scumreading meat.

I'm not trying to intentionally avoid it, just haven't had the time to reread them, but I have now. At the time, I picked you over Meat because you were fresher on my mind. Honestly there was no real reason other than that. My suspicion of Meat rests on a couple of areas, the weird way votes against them on day 1 were treated and the lack of them taking a firm stance on anything, seen in this post as an example.

Yeah if I couldn't vote for Mao I would go for a low info player such as Kalor, Kopite or Malus. They've shown up so infrequently this phase that they've pretty much been in my blind spot as I've tried to keep up with the major goings on and that concerns me. I'm not going to full on accuse anyone of trying to fly under the radar but they have been under my radar, I'm going to be keeping an eye on them going forward.

This is somewhat lacking compared to how long it took me to finally write something but my feelings have shifted enough since the start of the day that I don't feel as willing to vote for you right now

Unvote
 
OP
OP
Natiko

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Heat check - do people feel I should extend the day 24 hours due to the deathly quiet Saturday we experienced. Please respond via PM. I will make the decision within 3 hours so that it's not a 'last second' type of thing. This is why I usually try and avoid weekend phases, but if the players think it's fine then I'll leave it.
 

Meatwad

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,653
USA
I'm not trying to intentionally avoid it, just haven't had the time to reread them, but I have now. At the time, I picked you over Meat because you were fresher on my mind. Honestly there was no real reason other than that. My suspicion of Meat rests on a couple of areas, the weird way votes against them on day 1 were treated and the lack of them taking a firm stance on anything, seen in this post as an example.



This is somewhat lacking compared to how long it took me to finally write something but my feelings have shifted enough since the start of the day that I don't feel as willing to vote for you right now

Unvote

As you can see, I vote out of conviction, Not because I'm trying to jump on a train or hide or whatever people been trying to push
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Once again I'll be asleep for EoD. Unless it gets extended, in which case I won't. Pretty happy with where it is right now, though. Night, MafiaERA!
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
I will adress some things that I didn't answer because I wasn't around.

Numbers. It would be OP if we had four scum and one neutral; 1/3rd of the game would be anti-town. That's a bit too Bastard for Bastard, what with Town roles so far being kind of useless. If Scum have a roleblock and a roleswitcher, that's two powerful-ass roles that Scum have, which means that if Scum were also more than three people it would tip the balance of power a little too far. So my current Game Theory(ha) is three scum and one Neutral. The Neutral probably has a mark-enough-people-and-then-trigger-your-power win con of some sort.

I still think that you are making a lot of assumptions. Natiko once run a 23 players game with only 2 scum and a neutral. So I wouldn't jump to any conclusion so quickly.

I can see Fran's early pressure vote on Meat (that stayed until EoD) as a easy bus attempt on an inactive scummie.

I said when I voted that it was a prod vote. And that Turmoil was my biggest scum lean.

Fran, you missed this the post below in which VA very clearly "doubts" his scum read on Maol and actually unvoted. It's also a post where he reconsidered his scum read on you.

I skimmed through your D2 posts and couldn't find a actual read on VA before this town read on him. What did you think about him before this phase?

It was a complete null. Nothing on him besides saying that he scum readed me, then saying that he understood why I said that, then scumread me for the same thing as before.

Scummy post I was talking about earlier.

I won't talk about this until game ends. The last time that I talked about game balance during a game it was a shitshow (you know what game) so this time I will just shut up, wait until the games ends so I don't bring noise that it's not needed and just say what I think when the game ends.

I want Mao, turmoil and me to have our great we caught scum moment

I'm sorry to ruin it for you but you didn't.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
I still think that you are making a lot of assumptions. Natiko once run a 23 players game with only 2 scum and a neutral. So I wouldn't jump to any conclusion so quickly.
That's a possibility. It seems more likely than four scum and no neutral, though. Or four scum and one neutral. Three scum plus a neutral is a sweet spot to operate from until we get more info.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
Vote: Kalor

I already said why I think this. His reaction to Monkey's check and Maol claim was really suspicious.

I will be around until 30 minutes before EoD but, since I reincorporated to work today, I will not be around for any deadline unless it's on a weekend.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
Same could be said for Vincent. In fact I went back and your predecessor in your role was all over the place and seemed like he wanted to be present and not noticed. Also Vincent wanted to find "safe" wagons. When he voted me D1 He admitted he had zero justification for it and then switched his vote to Turmoil when he recieved pushback on my vote.

Then he spent most of day 2 talking to Monkey about her role and meekly trying to push Fran and Mao before abandoning that line towards day end. Vincent spent the game trying to play it safe and made no bold moves or did anything that would get him noticed. Which reads as anti-town to me

So just putting that out there
So................ok? I can't answer to how VA played.

*truffleshuffle*
I'm not trying to intentionally avoid it, just haven't had the time to reread them, but I have now. At the time, I picked you over Meat because you were fresher on my mind. Honestly there was no real reason other than that. My suspicion of Meat rests on a couple of areas, the weird way votes against them on day 1 were treated and the lack of them taking a firm stance on anything, seen in this post as an example.
ok, so if I have this str8 you were like this:
Zeke:
May try to coast
Fresh on your mind

Meat:
Weird voting
couple of other areas

vote zeke?
----------

lol
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Btw before i zzzzz if we fuck up tonight and lynch town and then a townie is nked tomorrow we mass claim, no ifs or buts
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,018
I'll try to respond to a bunch of quotes.
If scum have a roleblocker and Kitsu role is a counter for one of their members, I think they would use it on her instead of Gorlak. I don't think the mark is a delayed or permanent roleblock, so I think those are separate powers.
Good point, assuming Kits is telling the truth whoever she's meant to detect is most likely not Scum then.

What? You think it was a swapped role? It doesn't seem that way from what Kalor's claiming. What makes you suspect a swap and not just a change or overwrite?

Why do you and Kopite think this was a swap situation and not a change?
If someone gave away a hated role and ended up with a role that kills them, why wouldn't Kalor get that today if this is a swap and not an overwrite? If Kalor is town and it's a scum power as you're pointing out.

It feels like you're doing very surface analysis here and not thinking things through to conclusions. Kalor, are you dying d4 now?
I was hated when I was scum so I feel like that's most likely to be a scum role. I thought it was possible scum had a role swapper and tried to swap the 'hated' member's role out. I didn't think there could be 'extra' roles not attached to anyone, and I did miss out that Scum would've wanted to change the 'dying soldier' out again. Course there's maybe stipulations to the role like 'you can't change roles of someone already affected' but Fat4All's post made after these indicates it's something Natiko's doing when conditions are met rather than a specific PR.

Oh, I think I missed this one when I was going through earlier. So you really think I would handwave my scummate in an obvious way that would clearly tie us together in the event one of us died but also I could construct an enormously elaborate role just to get Maol voted out for reasons? Because those things don't really go together. One is not great play, especially d1, but I'm "competent" enough to stone cold gambit for three days straight. Seems like a huge risk to get one player voted out.

As for the last part, my point was that you were assuming I still felt the same way about Meatwad as I did d1. You didn't ask, you didn't try to question, you just rolled on as though nothing had changed. Why?
Yes, I don't think your post then on Meatwad was an unlikely move, nor really an obvious one. It was unnoticed until Kalor picked it up. And it's not been mentioned by anyone else. The Maol thing, if it was a scum gambit was very elaborate, but hey Maol's dead, D2 discussion was dominated by your findings and you can always use 'but why would scum do something so elaborate' as your defense so if it's a scum gambit it worked out.

This runthrough of Kopite on Meatwad makes me want to take him off my list, at least for today. If Kalor's scum, I don't know if I see a scummate going this hard against him. Not impossible but seems unlikely. His progression on Meatwad is okay, too; he scumreads him but wanted to see the Maol flip yesterday, which I think is not a bad look here.

He also called out Kalor's inconsistencies early, as you can see below. Don't really have other commentary on the first two posts:

This below is one of the few that I'd sideeye a little, though. Maybe because I don't know what he means here by Kalor's interactions being "off" with Zeke. It seems like it's actually more targeted against Zeke there than Kalor, but starts with Kalor?

Kopite, what do you think of fatdog's extensions now on his role? He's still being vague (and that could be a legit position; there's no reason for him to claim here) but you hypothesize him as a potential neutral here.

This is also one of the few situations in which I could see an arsonist here^^ but two scum is a big hill to climb.


Again, these two seem to go pretty hard against Kalor. Seems legit but if Kopite backs off for any weak reasoning I think I'd watch; otherwise I'm inclined to think it's real.

This one's weird. Are you saying you think the three of us could be a team? Or were we just the people you were going to look at?
RE: Kalor/Zeke, I meant Kalor's interactions/reads on VA, before Zeke subbed in. I agree that Zeke went hard on Kalor too, and it makes me think they aren't both scum
RE: Fat4All, I'm just trying to figure out how/why he's aware of how he's role can change over the course of the game. Mao didn't know it could've happened, Kalor didn't either so what makes Fat4All so special? Maybe that's info that would only be shared with a neutral?
RE: I was trying to figure out the scum team makeup, and was trying to fit the three of you yes.
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,018
Vote: Meatwad

I think if Meat is scum we can have a closer look at Monkey later. I'd also be happy to vote Kalor, I have more trouble reading Fran.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Yes, I don't think your post then on Meatwad was an unlikely move, nor really an obvious one. It was unnoticed until Kalor picked it up. And it's not been mentioned by anyone else. The Maol thing, if it was a scum gambit was very elaborate, but hey Maol's dead, D2 discussion was dominated by your findings and you can always use 'but why would scum do something so elaborate' as your defense so if it's a scum gambit it worked out.
But... why Maol? He was already acting pretty weird. Why not target someone totally unlikely to ever get voted out? This is what I don't get about these elaborate theories. I don't understand why I would go all out to protect Meatwad or why I would go all out to target Maol in particular. Not only are neither of these strategies anything I've done in the past - the closest I've ever come to putting myself on the line for a scummate was Blarg in GoT because he did have a power we wanted to use and I've never attempted a wild gambit, much less anything on the scale of what happened here. I've always been anti-gambit. But apparently in this game I am suddenly the mafia mastermind of gambits and bold plays, all to protect Meatwad and kill Maol because reasons.

From my perspective, it feels like bizarro world shit. I'm sorry, I really don't mean to be dismissive, it's just wild to me though it's not like you have a window into my head.

But let me ask you a question here about roles and play approaches. So you believe all this is possible. Do you believe Kalor was vanilla? Do you think Kalor has played like a vanilla in this game?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Then he spent most of day 2 talking to Monkey about her role and meekly trying to push Fran and Mao before abandoning that line towards day end. Vincent spent the game trying to play it safe and made no bold moves or did anything that would get him noticed. Which reads as anti-town to me
How is that particularly different from your play?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
That being said, given the current discussions of the Day (INCLUDING things that you've contributed to), this discussion doesn't seem to have much merit as far as game solving goes. When we actually have a new theory or a new idea, we can come back to it. Right now we're just discussing why we aren't working from literally nothing. That's... Kinda weird, to me. I honestly do not see the point of it.
It's been your discussion, kits. I'm just trying to figure out why you won't discuss balance around an arsonist-style role with me.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
I said when I voted that it was a prod vote. And that Turmoil was my biggest scum lean.
But you only voted for turmoil minutes away from EoD, when the mislynch was basically set already. Having that prod vote on Meat hang on while we had wagons forming behind turmoil (your biggest scum read) and Maol (the one you actually ended up voting for) is exactly why it looks suspect.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Vote: Meatwad

I think if Meat is scum we can have a closer look at Monkey later. I'd also be happy to vote Kalor, I have more trouble reading Fran.
Can you be concise on this Monkey x Meatwad link? I think Monkey kinda addressed this on her last post, but I'm really lost on this point, I think.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
But you only voted for turmoil minutes away from EoD, when the mislynch was basically set already.

No, it wasn't. I made my vote 3 minutes before EoD and at the time that I made it the vote was tied. If you look at the time stamps of Malus and my vote there is less than a minute between those 2. I made my vote from my phone so I didn't saw that Malus had changed his vote before I made mine. So the lunch was not even close from set.

Having that prod vote on Meat hang on while we had wagons forming behind turmoil (your biggest scum read) and Maol (the one you actually ended up voting for) is exactly why it looks suspect.

Instead of just relying in the vote tool you should actually read the thread. When I voted for Meatwad I said that my top scum was Turmoil but I wanted to push some participation from other players (in this case Meatwad, VA and Fat4all). It´s in the post before my vote. At that point Maol had barely posted. But then he made some posts about how he was pretty sure that Turmoil was town, and he couldn't have know that unless he was scum. In my first post after Maol made this statements I called him out and voted for him.

I didn't left a prod vote hanging. I wasn't around. The first post that I made I changed my vote for Maol.