Hypothetical question: as a society, should we be allowed to discriminate against sociopaths?

[Dark Knight]

I've thought about this hypothetical for awhile now. To preface, this is what wikipedia links the term "sociopath" to:
Antisocial personality disorder
" a personality disorder characterized by a long-term pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. A low moral sense or conscience is often apparent, as well as a history of crime, legal problems, or impulsive and aggressive behavior."

And there is evidence that the disorder can be caused by genetics, physiology, or environment, making the disorder something of a mental illness or mental health issue if you look at it in this light. Obviously discrimination based on mental illness is horrific and something that still very much plagues society at large, but what do we do about it? There's a very high probability that not only the president of the US is a sociopath, but likely so are many in congress who prop up and protect this malignancy. The very definition says that sociopaths have a disregard for, or violation of, other's rights. These people are actively hurting so many in this country on a daily basis, yet they were duly elected into power.

So my hypothetical question is, given the fact that this mental disorder is a natural occurrence in people, but these same people often want to actively hurt or use other people, should society be allowed to discriminate against sociopaths? Like for example, should we be testing people for this disorder before they are allowed to take office and denying them the position if it's determined that they are one? It's somewhat of a paradoxical hypothetical to me because I know we should absolutely not discriminate based on mental health, but if they seek to harm others.... I don't know, I'm honestly curious what should be done about the sociopath problem long term.

 

[collige]

I've given this line of thinking some thought before. My short answer is no; someone with no conscience can still be extrinsically motivated to keep themselves out of trouble. Your hypothetical is kind of imaging a scenario where a sociopath has managed to successfully navigate the political system while also managing to hide all of their problematic behaviors until the point that they're elected, which seems unrealistic to me. Problems will manifest in the person's behavior well before you get to the point of testing.

 

[Akira86]

you'd never see them coming, and the backlash might surprise you.

but no, give them pathways and outlets and ways to exist. psychopaths, that's a different question.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

i'd prefer not to start criminalizing pathologies

i feel like that's power i don't want the state to have in a free society

 

[Dark Knight]

I've given this line of thinking some thought before. My short answer is no; someone with no conscience can still be extrinsically motivated to keep themselves out of trouble. Your hypothetical is kind of imaging a scenario where a sociopath has managed to successfully navigate the political system while also managing to hide all of their problematic behaviors until the point that they're elected, which seems unrealistic to me. Problems will manifest in the person's behavior well before you get to the point of testing.

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They can keep themselves out of trouble, but that's part of the long term game for some and not necessarily something that will inform their future actions or motives. They hide in the shadows until they have a chance to strike or show their true faces without retribution. Sometimes they never do. Sociopaths can live completely normal lives and hide their condition yet still see or secretly use others as objects or means without them knowing. The craftiest among them are never found out. And I don't really have a problem with those that are this way and never act on their very alien instincts, but how do you explain the fact that one of our major political parties in the US is basically completely made up of sociopaths?

i'd prefer not to start criminalizing pathologies

i feel like that's power i don't want the state to have in a free society

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Yeah I'm not saying that's the solution, I just don't want innocent people hurt at their hands.

 

[collige]

They can keep themselves out of trouble, but that's part of the long term game for some and not necessarily something that will inform their future actions or motives. They hide in the shadows until they have a chance to strike or show their true faces without retribution. Sometimes they never do. Sociopaths can live completely normal lives and hide their condition yet still see or secretly use others as objects or means without them knowing.

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Yes, which means that the practical difference between a sociopath that hasn't done anything wrong and a non-sociopath is nonexistent. At that point, you're then advocating for proactive Minority Report-style criminalization of thoughts and that line of logic can very easily be extended to other classifications of people that are positively correlated with bad societal outcomes.

how do you explain the fact that one of our major political parties in the US is basically completely made up of sociopaths?

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Capitalism is a system that rewards people for treating other people like shit.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

They can keep themselves out of trouble, but that's part of the long term game for some and not necessarily something that will inform their future actions or motives. They hide in the shadows until they have a chance to strike or show their true faces without retribution. Sometimes they never do. Sociopaths can live completely normal lives and hide their condition yet still see or secretly use others as objects or means without them knowing. The craftiest among them are never found out. And I don't really have a problem with those that are this way and never act on their very alien instincts, but how do you explain the fact that one of our major political parties in the US is basically completely made up of sociopaths?

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It has a sociopathic political program so the people who succeed are people who can embody it.

It's important to remember these things come from ideas and incentives before they come from an individual or group of individuals psychological makeup

 

[Reversed]

mental health support is almost imperative, for starters

 

[Wandering Robot]

No.
Besides the fact that "sociopath" and "psychopath" are colloquial, not medical, terms, ASPD is a treatable illness. Regard people for their actions, not diagnoses (diagnoses I can't make online anyway). It wouldn't be an excuse for poor behavior either way. I imagine a lot of the GOP members are just selfish assholes, and you don't need to be a sociopath for that to be true.

That and discriminating against people with illnesses is pretty uncool. Personality Disorders ARE mental illnesses, also.

 

[the_wart]

Society doesn't really have a choice. You could never sustain such a social norm and anyone who tried would be rejected immediately. Demanding that people be kind and accommodating to people who actively harm them is only feasible when the people doing harm are in a position of power.

The situation is only paradoxical if you believe that tolerance of immutable differences is an intrinsic and deontological good that supersedes all others. Very few people actually think this.

Edit: This isn't to say I don't think mental health care and treatment should be made available to, well, anyone who could benefit from them. But at the level of individual behavior you will not succeed at convincing people that they cannot discriminate against people with antisocial personality disorders.

 

[yogurt]

We can consider it as soon as we can reliably, objectively identify all of those with antisocial personality disorder with no possibility that the diagnostic scheme is used to oppress people of certain races, persuasions, or political views.

As in, probably never.

 

[CitizenVectron]

This is a really tough one, because sociopaths (and especially psychopaths) are prone to manipulate others without remorse in order to get whatever they want. I remember there was a study from a while back that showed top-level executives in companies tended to be socio/psychopaths at a much higher rate than the general population. The theory is that without guilt or remorse (due to lack of empathy) they are able to do whatever is necessary to advance their own careers and power.

Should there be some sort of screening to limit their ability to hold power over others? Perhaps. It's a tricky issue. How do we truly know if someone lacks total empathy? There is no surefire test.

 

[Dongs Macabre]

It's pretty shitty to attribute the actions of selfish politicians to personality disorders you don't even know if they have.

 

[Mr. Snuffleupagus]

No, of course not.

 

[Parthenios]

Who gets to legally define "sociopath" and who gets to change that definition? Look at how felons are denied rights and how handing out felonies is weaponized politically and it's a short path to the 'no' conclusion here.

 

[Dark Knight]

I'm already learning a lot of different perspectives on this from this discussion. My gut instinct is to fear the sociopaths... and perhaps rightfully so, but I would very much prefer alternatives for how they could co-exist in society as all free people should.

It's pretty shitty to attribute the actions of selfish politicians to personality disorders you don't even know if they have.

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Perhaps you are right and they don't all have the disorder, but POTUS absolutely does.

 

[teruterubozu]

Not sure how you would differentiate on the spot whether someone is just having an episode/bad day versus being a full-blown psychopath. You're asking people to be judge, jury AND psychoanalysts.

 

[Punchline]

no? what kind of fucked up question is this

 

[Dark Knight]

no? what kind of fucked up question is this

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Is it more of a fucked up premise than those climbing to power for the purpose of hurting people, society, and the world at large? I keep referring back to Trump because he IS a sociopath who IS in power and IS hurting everyone.

 

[Punchline]

Perhaps you are right and they don't all have the disorder, but POTUS absolutely does.

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oh i see this is just another orange man bad thread

listen i hate trump too but you're not tackling the actual problems. the mental health of people pales in comparison to the wealth disparity, racism, and masculinity bias that trump built an empire on.

 

[Sesha]

No. There's no way of knowing for sure who's a sociopath without a diagnosis, so in practice such discrimination is basically impossible. And unless they commit a crime (which not all do), there's really no good ethical or moral reasons to do so.

 

[Gpsych]

No. Sociopathy can actually be extremely adaptive depending on the situation/task. For example: explosive ordinance disposal lends itself towards sociopathy as they tend to have little concern for innocent bystanders thus allowing them to maintain control over their anxiety while performing such a dangerous task (they likely care more for the thrill and positive reinforcement from success). A large number of high risk surgeons are sociopaths which is adaptive as you don't want someone making a mistake because they are afraid of hurting you on the table. What we need is better vocational rehab services to help channel that personality type into socially adaptive roles with high rates of reinforcement.

 

[Deleted member 63139]

Is the person legally responsible of his actions ? In France where I live, a clear distinction is made, those individuals need care and proper treatment and monitoring.

in other cases, the education, his entourage, himself shaped his dangerous personality, not a pathology, in that case he should be treated like everybody else.

Those disorders are something serious and just assuming that every shitty politician has it,..that's absolutely not correct tho, they chose to be assholes.

please don't spiral into that, we owe it to the people who really struggle with those disorders. Just admit that many shitty people...are shitty and chose to be that way, don't protect them with 'they have a disorder' that's awful.

people are diverse and in some cases, what seems to be sociopathy or some aspects of it cannot be considered a disorder, rather, a trait of one's personality. A drone pilot needs to be, in a way, a little disconnected from reality, he pushes a button and people thousands of km away die (sometimes civilians are collateral damage...), is it a disorder ? I wouldn't agree. Is it horrible when they see civilian die and consider it under some threshold of collateral damage tolerance or 'worth it' (I have nausea just writing this) ? Yep

 

[MinerArcaniner]

i'd prefer not to start criminalizing pathologies

i feel like that's power i don't want the state to have in a free society

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That's my main issue with it.

The government could very easily twist this to their own ends in the name of "public safety". They already do with several specific issues, but with this they wouldn't even need a specific threat. Sounds like a slippery slope into Psycho-Pass shit.

 

[Punchline]

Is it more of a fucked up premise than those climbing to power for the purpose of hurting people, society, and the world at large? I keep referring back to Trump because he IS a sociopath who IS in power and IS hurting everyone.

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would a black sociopath who lives in a rural district be a threat to everyone? do we discriminate against him even more because of conditions he was born with when the system is designed already to discriminate against him?

 

[Sesha]

Is it more of a fucked up premise than those climbing to power for the purpose of hurting people, society, and the world at large? I keep referring back to Trump because he IS a sociopath who IS in power and IS hurting everyone.

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Yes. First off, it's a mental disorder. Second, there are thousands, if not millions of people with anti-social personality disorder, diagnosed and undiagnosed, many of whom don't hurt anyone. There are a lot of people w/ ASPD because of past abuse/trauma. Many of whom are children. Do we discriminate against them too because of their condition? Or do they get special exceptions?

You're acting emotionally and haven't thought this idea through.

 

[Dark Knight]

No. Sociopathy can actually be extremely adaptive depending on the situation/task. For example: explosive ordinance disposal lends itself towards sociopathy as they tend to have little concern for innocent bystanders thus allowing them to maintain control over their anxiety while performing such a dangerous task (they likely care more for the thrill and positive reinforcement from success). A large number of high risk surgeons are sociopaths which is adaptive as you don't want someone making a mistake because they are afraid of hurting you on the table. What we need is better vocational rehab services to help channel that personality type into socially adaptive roles with high rates of reinforcement.

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Fascinating, thanks for this.

I completely agree with your last point too.

 

[Joni]

Should we be able to discriminate people based on disorders? The answer best be no.

 

[signal]

A large number of high risk surgeons are sociopaths which is adaptive as you don't want someone making a mistake because they are afraid of hurting you on the table.

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Why would this manifest itself as someone being a better surgeon? You could easily make the argument they could be more careless couldn't you? It's not like someone being more concerned about the patient would manifest itself as insanely jittery hands.

 

[Dark Knight]

Yes. First off, it's a mental disorder. Second, there are thousands, if not millions of people with anti-social personality disorder, diagnosed and undiagnosed, many of whom don't hurt anyone.

You're not thinking straight.

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I made this thread to help educate myself through discussion. My main query was about how do we avoid the wake of destruction of the few who are intent on hurting others climbing to positions of power, I obviously do not want to discriminate against anyone who is harmless or is actively seeking help.

 

[hanshen]

No. This is extremely dangerous.
This will give whoever in power a way to discriminate anyone they want, since the definition of "anti-social behavior" is really vague and those in power have the means to define it.

 

[collige]

I'm already learning a lot of different perspectives on this from this discussion. My gut instinct is to fear the sociopaths... and perhaps rightfully so, but I would very much prefer alternatives for how they could co-exist in society as all free people should.

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OK, I think I should point out now that a lot of your framing and language used in this thread has been deliberately othering and alienating, which is not conducive to co-existence and problematic when you consider that all of these diagnoses are just collectively agreed upon labels for people. The first step to having a society that is better at integrating these people is to not talk about them like they're aliens in disguise just waiting for the opportunity to strike.

I encourage you to read an Atlantic article from a few years ago called "When Your Child Is a Psychopath".

That and discriminating against people with illnesses is lame.

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This is a very ironic post when you consider what "lame" means

 

[Neece]

No. WTF?

 

[Punchline]

completely baffling thread to be honest. op should have maybe done more research than just assuming trump is a sociopath and that mental disorder discrimination was the only way to deal with it.

like why even stop at sociopaths? autistic people have a hard time reading people's intentions so why don't we discriminate them as well because communication can sometimes be difficult.

not to mention mental disorder discrimination already happens and is rarely spoken about. i cannot believe the gall on the op to suggest this as a serious thread.

 

[Dark Knight]

OK, I think I should point out now that a lot of your framing and language used in this thread has been deliberately othering and alienating, which is not conducive to co-existence and problematic when you consider that all of these diagnoses are just collectively agreed upon labels for people. The first step to having a society that is better at integrating these people is to not talk about them like they're aliens in disguise just waiting for the opportunity to strike.

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You're absolutely right, I suppose whenever I've read about sociopaths it's almost always in this exact light. Like I was under the impression that the disorder itself meant they see the rest of us as mere objects. Are you saying that a sociopath could be in power and actually want to help the populace? I guess I had a completely different read on what it meant.

Ty for the article, I'll check it out for sure.

 

[Sesha]

I made this thread to help educate myself through discussion. My main query was about how do we avoid the wake of destruction of the few who are intent on hurting others climbing to positions of power, I obviously do not want to discriminate against anyone who is harmless or is actively seeking help.

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Well, then, I question the Trump example. Trump is a rather extreme exception statistically (in the sense of the scope of his influence and the harm he's caused). You can't really prepare against a DJT by focusing on ASPD specifically aside from providing better mental health services and education. You prepare by addressing everything else about him by tackling weaknesses and deficits in society and the political system.

And personally I don't think the onus is on ASPD people to seek help unless they're hurting anyone, or wanting to. It's not like it's a cartoon evil disease that predisposes individuals to harming others.

 

[colorblindmode]

Getting some serious eugenics vibes from this post.

 

[Gpsych]

Why would this manifest itself as someone being a better surgeon? You could easily make the argument they could be more careless couldn't you? It's not like someone being more concerned about the patient would manifest itself as insanely jittery hands.

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True, you could definitely make that argument. However, sociopathy is generally characterized by a complete lack of anxiety with regards to hurting others due to their lack of empathy. Anxiety impedes prefrontal cortex and executive functions to at least some degree which can result in all sorts of errors. I'm NOT saying you have to be a sociopath to be a surgeon (as training and practice can definitely normalize the bizarre situation that is high-risk surgery) but it can definitely be an advantage. Sociopaths also tend to care A LOT about their own failures/success rate (as they can hold it over others) so this can be highly motivating to perform well.

 

[Dark Knight]

not to mention mental disorder discrimination already happens and is rarely spoken about. i cannot believe the gall on the op to suggest this as a serious thread.

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If it's this ridiculous I hope it just gets locked. My intent was far more pointed than this ended up being about and I'm very embarrassed by how you're framing the response to it.
Maybe I should have just said harmful sociopaths instead of the disorder at large? I don't know.

 

[Punchline]

Getting some serious eugenics vibes from this post.

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for real... jesus christ

 

[teruterubozu]

One could argue that this post is a bit sociopathic.

 

[collige]

Why would this manifest itself as someone being a better surgeon? You could easily make the argument they could be more careless couldn't you? It's not like someone being more concerned about the patient would manifest itself as insanely jittery hands.

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True, you could definitely make that argument. However, sociopathy is generally characterized by a complete lack of anxiety with regards to hurting others due to their lack of empathy. Anxiety impedes prefrontal cortex and executive functions to at least some degree which can result in all sorts of errors. I'm NOT saying you have to be a sociopath to be a surgeon (as training and practice can definitely normalize the bizarre situation that is high-risk surgery) but it can definitely be an advantage. Sociopaths also tend to care A LOT about their own failures/success rate (as they can hold it over others) so this can be highly motivating to perform well.

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This is the article I was mentioning above: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/

Carl cheerfully admits that the death business appeals to him. As a child, he says, "I had a deep fascination with knives and cutting and killing, so it's a harmless way to express some level of what you might call morbid curiosity. And I think that morbid curiosity taken to its extreme—that's the home of the serial killers, okay? So it's that same energy. But everything in moderation."

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I would guess that surgery is the same in that it's a healthy outlet for cutting people up.

 

[Dark Knight]

for real... jesus christ

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How did my thread go from "how do we prevent hitler?" to "OP is hitler"
Like can you stop please?

 

[signal]

True, you could definitely make that argument. However, sociopathy is generally characterized by a complete lack of anxiety with regards to hurting others due to their lack of empathy. Anxiety impedes prefrontal cortex and executive functions to at least some degree which can result in all sorts of errors. I'm NOT saying you have to be a sociopath to be a surgeon (as training and practice can definitely normalize the bizarre situation that is high-risk surgery) but it can definitely be an advantage. Sociopaths also tend to care A LOT about their own failures/success rate (as they can hold it over others) so this can be highly motivating to perform well.

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🤔 Interesting regardless

 

[PMS341]

The best thing I ever did for myself was actively distancing myself from people with sociopathic behavior. In these particular cases, I refer to behavior that actively hurts others for personal gain and/or genuine lack of empathy. This includes certain friends, family, coworkers and bosses, etc. My stress and anxiety plummeted in comparison to when I "put up" with being in toxic environments. They can exist in their own lives, but not mine. Surrounding yourself with people who actually give a shit about you (and others) is only a positive thing.

 

[take_marsh]

If only it were that simple.

 

[colorblindmode]

How did my thread go from "how do we prevent hitler?" to "OP is hitler"
Like can you stop please?

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The fact that you're talking about taking a subset of people and ostracizing them because of a pathology is authoritarian at best and fascist at worst. You're walking a very narrow path.

 

[Dark Knight]

The fact that you're talking about taking a subset of people and ostracizing them because of a pathology is authoritarian at best and fascist at worst. You're walking a very narrow path.

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Not ostracizing from society, just making sure they don't have power over others. I get what you're saying though.

 

[Zaubrer]

first and foremost I wouldn't want to criminalize pathologies and secondly, I don't really think we should descriminate anybody.

 

[Dark Knight]

first and foremost I wouldn't want to criminalize pathologies and secondly, I don't really think we should descriminate anybody.

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First of all, I don't think I ever suggested we criminalize anything.
Second, I agree, but then what measures do we have to protect people against those who seek to hurt others? There is the law after the fact, but that doesn't do anything when the pain comes from the top(those in power).