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Mar 9, 2018
606
So I was talking with a friend and they kept telling me that you make the choice to commit suicide.

That no matter how bad life gets, there is never anything but a choice in the matter.

They have worked their way into a position of privilege.

They are not really willing to acknowledge their luck in that situation and they think that others are capable of similarly pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

I am still incredulous as I firmly believe that there are times where mental illness or poverty can make life so unbearably painful that you cannot be asked to continue.

If for instance you hate your job but have no way out due to poverty limiting you, and you feel this state of being trapped does not allow life to be enjoyed, isn't it victim blaming to then just say, "well, he had a choice", when in reality they killed themselves as they felt like they had no choice.

Similarly with mental illness, people become addicts or are just unable to attend school or really function due to it, after a lifetime of cruelty that typically someone with mental illness incurs due to being perceived as different, if the issues are intractable, doesn't someone have a right to end their life without it being dismissed as a choice.?

The famous lyricist richey Edward's, before he died due to presumably suicide, wore a shirt that had the slogan, "there is no choice".

Is it fair for people to discount the perceptions of the victim due to their mental health which is obviously in question leading to suicide?

I think that life can present as a pressure, or a pain, to such a degree where there is no choice. The hopelessness and pain one can experience, due not to a temporary problem but a lifetime of problems, can ruin a person to where they are unable to function. I think positing suicide as a choice is then victim blaming.

Also, who can judge as each person, despite this "you are not alone" shit, has their own unique life experiences. They are not just one rape victim is all rape victims or all sufferers of depression are the same.
 

MasterYoshi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,030
Ever notice those who have never hit rock bottom in life are the first to give their opinions on the choices made by those who have?
 

SideMatt

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
874
Edit: There's obviously a choice in the sense that we might be able to reach them and convince them to keep living, but in my own experience the "always a choice" line is used to victim blame after death a lot.
 
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Deleted member 14313

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,622
Yes you have the right to do it. Yes many people who want to commit suicide do so because of circumstances outside their own control. But yes it is always a choice. If it is being forced upon you it is not suicide.
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,378
I think it is a choice. But fundamentally it's a valid one. I strongly believe in voluntary euthanasia - if you're ill or in pain and have no hope of recovery ahead, just more suffering, you have a right to end your life with as much dignity as you can.

And I don't think it's my place to say where that line is. I can't decide for someone how much suffering is too much, or argue that their life is worth living. I can give my perspective and view on why I keep going, and why I'm making the choice to keep living - but I can't make that decision for someone.

No one elects to be alive. I think it's cruel to force someone to stay when they didn't choose to show up in the first place.
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,484
It is a choice technically, but its a choice that most people don't get to make for themselves. Depression and other problems leading to suicide often make them feel like there is no other choice. Its sad and there needs to be many more avenues of help for people who are at rock bottom, because at the end of the day those are the people who need it more than anyone.
 

striderno9

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
2,343
New York, NY
I think it is a choice. But fundamentally it's a valid one. I strongly believe in voluntary euthanasia - if you're ill or in pain and have no hope of recovery ahead, just more suffering, you have a right to end your life with as much dignity as you can.

And I don't think it's my place to say where that line is. I can't decide for someone how much suffering is too much, or argue that their life is worth living. I can give my perspective and view on why I keep going, and why I'm making the choice to keep living - but I can't make that decision for someone.

No one elects to be alive. I think it's cruel to force someone to stay when they didn't choose to show up in the first place.
Another great point.

Yes, it is a choice. Doesn't mean they don't have the right to make that choice judgment free.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,568
It can feel like there's no choice. Let people do it if they hurt too much to continue on. Who are we to stop people? Someone else's suffering can be, in your mind, less than yours - but to them, it could be everything. People are affected differently. Love everyone you can, and be understanding if they're done.
 

kamakazi5

Member
Oct 28, 2017
248
Outside of mental illness I would say there is always a choice. As you say, there may be situations that feel impossible to get out of and in very select situations I would agree but in the end it's still a choice. I believe it can sometimes be the better choice (at least seemingly) but still a choice.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,869
Your friend ain't shit, OP.

You should've made the choice to not post.

Edit: There's obviously a choice in the sense that we might be able to reach them and convince them to keep living, but the "always a choice" line is used to victim blame 100% of the time.

The "always a choice" line saved my life.
 

echoshifting

very salt heavy
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,703
The Negative Zone
I think it is a choice. But fundamentally it's a valid one. I strongly believe in voluntary euthanasia - if you're ill or in pain and have no hope of recovery ahead, just more suffering, you have a right to end your life with as much dignity as you can.

And I don't think it's my place to say where that line is. I can't decide for someone how much suffering is too much, or argue that their life is worth living. I can give my perspective and view on why I keep going, and why I'm making the choice to keep living - but I can't make that decision for someone.

No one elects to be alive. I think it's cruel to force someone to stay when they didn't choose to show up in the first place.

I like this post, thank you.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,869
In that case, I'm very glad that happened. My own experience with that line has been very different, I guess. I feel like I always hear it in a way that talks shit about victims after their death.

I'm not going to claim it's the right thing to say in every circumstance. But for me, and others I'd assume, that added level of perspective might be exactly what they need to hear.
 

Cymbal Head

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,373
Putting aside the determinism question:

It's a choice that can be heavily constrained by the mental health of the individual making it. I bristle at the old "suicide is selfish" line, because it completely misses the fact that people with severe depression often come to believe the world would be better off without them, but I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no choice, because if there's no choice, there's no hope. And there's always hope.
 

striderno9

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
2,343
New York, NY
In that case, I'm very glad that happened. My own experience with that line has been very different, I guess. I feel like I always hear it in a way that talks shit about victims after their death.
So this is your own bias working against you. There IS always a choice, it doesn't mean we should blame those that mad that choice. We all live different lives.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,722
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Because it chose to.

"choice" tends to be ascribed in reverse, not on the actual moment when the supposed choice is not being made.
Suicide in particular is a long, complex social adjustment pattern where people go through predictable steps towards essentially committing "a genocide of one".

The choices of the people around you matter far more than any choice you'd ever make on your own. They will ultimately choose for you. So no, the individual choice is kinda moot, aside from deciding not to do it.
 

L4DANathan

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
857
Fairfax, VA, USA
There's always a choice, and they decided that continuing to live is worse than dying, which is why it's so awful. If you pretend there isn't a choice, you're actually hand-waving away the reasoning for their decision and being a disrespectful asshole.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Of course there's a choice.

There isn't a choice in how you were born, who your parents are, what your situation is though. If your friend thinks there is, he doesn't understand how many people are unable to move on from poverty.
 
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