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Sea lion

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
903
User banned (2 weeks): concern trolling
Japanese games take a lot of inspiration from other cultures, from myths, to history and clothing and armour design.

The problem is most of their characters look Asian, which wouldn't be a big deal to me personally, but they fail to represent the actual people they're taking these influences from.

For example Final Fantasy is steeped in Western mythos, the characters even have Western names, yet the majority of the characters are Asian and look like J-pop stars. Take Tifa for example, her name isn't Japanese, and she's from a town called Niflheim, yet is clearly Asian. Same with Cloud, and even Barret has a certain look to his face and lighter skin in the new remake.

Aerith was stated to be made more Western but still looks Eastern in the face. And in FFXII they stated they were told to make Ashe distinctly not Japanese but still did in the end to appease the Japanese audience. However with her I'm not expecting her to look White, but Indian. The team took a trip there for cultural influence yet there seems to be no representation of their people.

It extends to a lot of their games. I know a vast majority have anime artsyles, but even then, despite their brightly coloured hair, anime character have more Asian facial features with sharper eyes and smaller noses and chins. I just find it disingenuous when games like Fire Emblem have all these European inspired aesthetics and names yet everybody again looks like a pretty j-pop star. It's ok for characters to have bigger noses and differenr facial structures, Japan, as in the end most of the world and people your taking from do.

I know Japan is xenophobic, but when looking through Bulbapedia at the new Pokemon, and seeing that NPCs on the routes you battle in the original Japanese version ALL have Japanese names despite the country being based on England I just laugh at their need to self insert into everything.

Obivously this goes beyond games too. Stuff like the manga Magi with its Arabic influence yet features very little people with dark skin gets to me too. I just wanted to know if there's a reason for this and what your guys thoughts are?

Obviously I'm not against Asian characters, in fact we need more of them from Western developed games, I just don't like the lack of representation of the people they take influences from. If the West developed a game, based on Japanese culture, myth, and geography yet all the characters, despite having Japanese names, were distinctly western there'd be massive uproar.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Its really gross but is rarely brought up because people think only white people/the west can be xenophobic and racist and its pretty infuriating.
 

Kwigo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,036
They should just put Scarlett Johansson in every game as every character ever, so that every gender and ethnicity is represented.

I too find it hilariously stupid to see "France" or "England" in Pokemon games being populated by 100% japanese looking people.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,497
A mountain in the US
I know Japan is xenophobic, but when looking through Bulbapedia at the new Pokemon, and seeing that NPCs on the routes you battle in the original Japanese version ALL have Japanese names despite the country being based on England I just laugh at their need to self insert into everything.
I don't think this is about self inserting or xenophobia. Just because the region is inspired by UK doesn't mean they're gonna start using English names for their characters. They're Japanese games.

I'm finding a lot of what you're arguing to be hard to relate to, because you're conflating a lot of things to be cultural appropriation that aren't.
I just find it disingenuous when games like Fire Emblem have all these European inspired aesthetics and names yet everybody again looks like a pretty j-pop star.
I think this is ridiculous. They do not look Japanese just because of the anime art style. What an odd thing to say. I'm really feeling from your post that your understanding of Japan comes from anime, video games, and resetera threads. I recommend reading something like Otaku: Japan's Database Animals by Hiroki Azuma for a different perspective on Japanese nerd shit.

I understand and relate to questioning Japan's tendency to depict things through a Japanese lens, but beyond your Magi example, I really don't think it typically comes from a place of cultural appropriation or xenophobia. I lived in Japan for several years. I experienced xenophobia tons while living in rural prefectures. I don't think that's what is at play when characters have Japanese names in different Pokemon regions, though.
even Barret has a certain look to his face
He surely doesn't look Japanese, though. I really think you're reaching with a number of your examples, OP.
 
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Jegriva

Banned
Sep 23, 2019
5,519
I see that as syncretism. Cultural appropriation is that only if it tries to erase or replace it the cultural origin.
If every imaginary town with some ethnic architecture needs to have people with the exact phenotype that actually lives there in the place it took ispiration form... what the heck, people, it's fucking fantasy. Let it be fantasy.
 

Anarki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
320
If the West developed a game, based on Japanese culture, myth, and geography yet all the characters, despite having Japanese names, were distinctly western there'd be massive uproar.
I don't think there would be any uproar about it in Japan, unless it's Kim Kardashian's kimono levels of stupid.
 

Deleted member 4552

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,570
1. America does this all the time. Self insertion, changing history etc.
2. It's not for you. Like seriously it's not your country and it's not your culture so who are you to make demands of it? The products not even ment for you.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
I think there are strokes of romanticism at play when it comes to critique of Japanese developers and games. Almost unilaterally you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on Era (as a reference point) who doesn't anticipate that next big game from Platinum. At this point that interest is well earned and trumps any critical eye sadly.

On the western side the same issue does extend at times to European and US teams. One example is Cyberpunk which takes visual inspiration from over three decades worth of anime and cyberpunk adjacent stories in how it's visually presented.

this happens in all games, but you might not notice it as much if you're predominantly playing Japanese games. You're not wrong tho
 

White Glint

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
Japan is xenophobic because cartoon characters don't go particularly heavy on asian racial features? aight
 

Deleted member 4552

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,570
I don't think there would be any uproar about it in Japan, unless it would be Kim Kardashian's kimono levels of stupid.

And in that case most people didn't care or found it mildly annoying. And even then when I spoke to people about it it was the trying to copywrite the name.
(And how ugly it was.)
 

Nida

Member
Aug 31, 2019
11,200
Everett, Washington
The vast majority of FF characters don't really look Asian at all.

Mario wearing a sombrero and a poncho in a Japanese game feels different than Kardashian selling kimonos for exorbitant prices.
 
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Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
As a white westerner, I am daily suffering from not being represented enough in cambodian cinematography.

So I have created the union of people victims of not being victim of anything.
 

Killyoh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,086
Paris, France
Obviously I'm not against Asian characters, in fact we need more of them from Western developed games, I just don't like the lack of representation of the people they take influences from. If the West developed a game, based on Japanese culture, myth, and geography yet all the characters, despite having Japanese names, were distinctly western there'd be massive uproar.
Because it's a bit different. Cultural appropriation is not an universal concept you can apply on everything, it needs context. Inspiration from other cultures is not always cultural appropriation. What is if if you take something meaningful from a culture and make it your own for, like, marketing reasons while denying the original intent and cultural aspects.

In case of Japan using western elements there's something to be aware of : western influence has extended to everywhere in the world, because of colonialism, occupation (in the case of Japan) or just Hollywood. Clearly taking inspiration from that is not the same as, say, using an swahili expression and market it as a cool thing (like Hakuna Matata in the 90s).

It's a complex concept, you can't reduce it to "a country used an element originating from another country"
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I disagree with like everything you just said.

Like we're complaining Tifa doesn't look white enough now?
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,198
I don't find Japanese developers culturally appropriating globally dominant culture (white, western) that problematic, to be honest. Let's focus more on the more problematic ones (like on Resident Evil 5 scale) and less of "Ashe looks like J-pop star but she's supposed to be western-inspired"...
 

Omeganex9999

Member
Oct 25, 2017
765
London
I don't think any of those characters look Asian. Hell, most anime characters aren't really Asian looking. Big colored eyes and colored hair are definitely not common traits of Japanese people. Seriously, look at the Yakuza series for Asian looking characters.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Japanese games have serious issues representing the world. Mainstream war games like Call of Duty and Battlefield often get plenty of flak for misrepresenting certain areas of the world, then you have Japanese games base all of their character on the shittiest stereotypes and it's all good. A French character with a fancy moustache holding a baguette. An overweight american stuffing himself with hamburgers all the time. Italians who only ever think about pasta and pizza. Or the opposite issue like what's explained in the OP: they just import Japanese manners, acting, looks and habits into a different continent, and call it a day: "this is how this country is". From kid-friendly games like Pokémon, all the way to more mature content like Metal Gear Solid: they're often so damn tone deaf about the countries they are representing, and it's too bad they get a pass because... I don't even know for sure why.

Then of course let's not even enter into the territory of homophobic, transphobic and mysogynist content in well-beloved Japanese games like Catherine, Persona, or the vast majority of visual novels that concentrate on the hot new student that has to choose between a dozen different partners who'd all fucking die for him because that's how relationships IRL work: the guy is the center of all attention, girls failed life if they can't get his attention. There's enormous issues of cultural representation in Japanese games that should be called out just as much as Western games are when they use blackfaces, when they imply all muslims are terrorists, when they basically make all French characters gay. That shit is toxic, it creates more toxicity, and it shouldn't be laughed off just because it comes from Japan and they mean no harm with that. Racism and insensivity remain such even if they stem from ignorance and not just malice.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,820
While cultural appropriation is a complicated topic you have to remember it is a completely neutral term and does not inherently mean anything good or bad. Me wearing my Tony Tony Chooper T-shirt is cultural appropriation.

Anyway, generally (emphasis on generally) speaking cultural appropriation becomes an issue when it is culture with recent imperialistic/colonial history approrpiating upon a culture that has been one of its victims. Japan appropriating western culture is a mixed bag as western culture can very well mean American/British culture which isn't too much of an issue because America isn't really losing any representation by this happening, they are still the dominant culture and will always be no matter how much people appropriate them. Of course when this extends to black culture or latino culture or any other minority culture that has historically been on the receiving end that's where issues start to arise. Like I said, this is a very complicated topic.

If you are asking for more ethnic representation in these games then I think that is perfectly fair to ask for on its own. Wrapping it in accusations of negative cultural appropriation is kinda iffy and may be unneeded.
 

Jako

Member
Oct 27, 2017
108
I actually think the opposite of something you said is true: most characters in Japanese games and anime don't look Japanese at all

EDIT:
I don't think any of those characters look Asian. Hell, most anime characters aren't really Asian looking. Big colored eyes and colored hair are definitely not common traits of Japanese people. Seriously, look at the Yakuza series for Asian looking characters.

100% this
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,281
So what facial features should they give these characters so we can definitively say they are Western and not Japanese in Western clothing?
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
I foresee this topic morphing into an arguement over whether anime characters look Asian or white.

They look Asian
 

Deleted member 4552

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,570
This is kind of dumb. Many Japanese games are sold in and marketed to western markets. And many of them sell most of their units in those markets.

They're aimed at the home market, they get localised for you, and he complained about Japanese versions of games.

Where they sell the most doesn't matter.
US media is more popular outside of USA too.

Should China dictate your cultural output?
 

Dr Pears

Member
Sep 9, 2018
2,674
You're asking for games with anime aesthetics set in non-japanese settings to have less anime aesthetic am I following you correctly?
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I actually think the opposite of something you said is true: most characters in Japanese games and anime don't look Japanese at all

I mean, of course - Japanese people IRL don't have 8cm wide eyes or coloured hair as big as their bodies. If anything it's an idealized version, a stylized version of how they like to represent themselves. Applying that style to a game set in the USA or Europe is a bit odd. Not necessarily racist or anything, but it's not particularly fitting to use a stylized and idealized self-representation of Japanese people to characters from completely different cultures by just applying different clothes on them or putting a German flag on their bag.

I mean, does this look like an accurate way to represent Western characters?

d7at2sv-69680e75-7be7-48cf-b174-d9bf71031640.png

Because all it seems to me are anime style characters (the eyes, the hair, the faces, etc.) clumsily put in Western-ish clothes.
 

Naar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,065
Majority of the characters in Final Fantasy do not look Asian at all.

Looking like a boy band =/= looking Asian
 

Jako

Member
Oct 27, 2017
108
how would you suggest they look like? who are you to tell an entire country how they should depict themselves?

I'm definitely not telling a country how to depict themselves, that's not what I said.

I didn't think my statement was so controversial to warrant an aggressive response like yours, maybe saying most anime/jrpg characters don't look Japanese is wrong, but I think a lot of them aren't designed to look Japanese.

I apologize if what I said was insensitive
 

tadaima

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,843
Tokyo, Japan
They're aimed at the home market, they get localised for you, and he complained about Japanese versions of games.

Where they sell the most doesn't matter.
US media is more popular outside of USA too.

Should China dictate your cultural output?
OP specifically called out Fire Emblem, Pokémon Sword and Shield, and Final Fantasy.

All of these games are aimed at a global market.

This is not to mention Square and Game Freak – Square especially – are both companies which make incredibly active efforts to hire foreign people. Sword & Shield's Art Director is British!

(And in response to your China comment – China increasingly does dictate western markets' output.)
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467

Nah. People rightfully shit on Hollywood movies when they do this, trying to whitewash Asian stories into their own version where a handsome white guy saves the day. Not sure why Japanese games should get a pass for representing other countries as if they were an extension of Japan with just different clothes and slang.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I'm struggling to even understand what you're saying, OP. You have an issue with name and character design mismatch of some kind?

Also an interesting thing about Nessa's name at least are that all of them but the English and Korean name are based on the various names for the flower, Cupid's Dart. Either directly referencing the flower, or having similar pronunciation to it.
9fjGjcq.png


EDIT: Actually, all the gym leaders are based on flowers it looks like. All the names are done similarly to how Nessa's name is handled.
 
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tadaima

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,843
Tokyo, Japan
d7at2sv-69680e75-7be7-48cf-b174-d9bf71031640.png

Because all it seems to me are anime style characters (the eyes, the hair, the faces, etc.) clumsily put in Western-ish clothes.
I'm not trying to defeat your point as I can see what you are trying to do but I just want to point out that other than the diner and mechanic (?) outfits these are all extremely common clothing styles here. Do you think people still walk around in yukatas and kimonos?
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
There is a broader topic (one that has been discussed to death, probably) about how Asian cultures have appropriated Western cultures. Part of that is because Western cultures intentionally export their culture as soft power.

But this framing of it is not it, lol.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
I'm not trying to defeat your point as I can see what you are trying to do but I just want to point out that other than the diner and mechanic (?) outfits these are all extremely common clothing styles here. Do you think people still walk around in yukatas and kimonos?
Of course not. But we know you all wear getas all day
 

MAK11

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
473
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
I mean, of course - Japanese people IRL don't have 8cm wide eyes or coloured hair as big as their bodies. If anything it's an idealized version, a stylized version of how they like to represent themselves. Applying that style to a game set in the USA or Europe is a bit odd. Not necessarily racist or anything, but it's not particularly fitting to use a stylized and idealized self-representation of Japanese people to characters from completely different cultures by just applying different clothes on them or putting a German flag on their bag.

I mean, does this look like an accurate way to represent Western characters?

d7at2sv-69680e75-7be7-48cf-b174-d9bf71031640.png

Because all it seems to me are anime style characters (the eyes, the hair, the faces, etc.) clumsily put in Western-ish clothes.
I'm not sure why you think Catherine is specifically supposed to be western?

There are a whole lot of Japanese culture tied specifically in Catherine. You can order sake at the Stray Sheep. You go with Orlando to a sushi place. These are not typical activities for western characters.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
There is a broader topic (one that has been discussed to death, probably) about how Asian cultures have appropriated Western cultures. Part of that is because Western cultures intentionally export their culture as soft power.

But this framing of it is not it, lol.
Part of that is because westerns nations colonized a large part of Asia. Not very soft in my book.
 
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