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Garfield

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 31, 2018
2,772
User Banned (3 Days): Inflammatory Thread Creation
Interesting article from a trusted source, these guys were responsible for getting the UK to change how they reacted. Basically in a rough estimate they feel two thirds would of died soon anyway.

Imperial College London modelling, used to inform government, has suggested 500,000 could have died by August in the UK if the virus was left to rip through the population.

It also warned the government's previous strategy to slow the spread by asking those with symptoms to self-isolate and shield the most vulnerable could have led to 250,000 deaths.

Now, it is hoped the lockdown will limit deaths to 20,000.

But that does not mean 480,000 lives are being saved - many will die whether or not they get the virus.

Every year, about 600,000 people in the UK die. And the frail and elderly are most at risk, just as they are if they have coronavirus.

Nearly 10% of people aged over 80 will die in the next year, Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter, at the University of Cambridge, points out, and the risk of them dying if infected with coronavirus is almost exactly the same.

That does not mean there will be no extra deaths - but, Sir David says, there will be "a substantial overlap".

"Many people who die of Covid [the disease caused by coronavirus] would have died anyway within a short period," he says.

Knowing exactly how many is impossible to tell at this stage.

Prof Neil Ferguson, the lead modeller at Imperial College London, has suggested it could be up to two-thirds.

But while deaths without the virus would be spread over the course of a year, those with the virus could come quickly and overwhelm the health service.

Is coronavirus causing the deaths?
The death figures being reported daily are hospital cases where a person dies with the coronavirus infection in their body - because it is a notifiable disease cases have to be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

Coronavirus: How to understand the death toll

The rising number of coronavirus deaths is distressing. But what are the figures actually telling us?
 
Last edited:

Omar310

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
UK
What's the aim here? To remove these people from the stats or something? To what end?
 

Blent

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,172
East Midlands, England, UK
Callous and irresponsible reporting from the BBC.

Suggests that these COVID deaths are somehow less tragic because 'hey, they would've probably died soon anyway' and only serves to fuel those who feel like lockdown is unnecessary to feel they're right.

As someone who works in the NHS, please do not underestimate how serious and overstretched things are right now.
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
13,876
And many who die wouldn't have otherwise died. What an odd statement. Also many who would have died soon anyway may not have died such a horrible death as those dying with Covid are. Not sure I'd label that a "really good article".
 

Airegin

Member
Dec 10, 2017
3,900
There is no way to tell that's true until we can compare the total amount of deaths this year to previous years.
 

Coxy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,187
Disrespectful to those who have died. Maybe they would have - but they have died before their time thanks to the virus.

And there's still plenty of people who are dying who wouldn't have.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,756
United Kingdom
The BBC downplaying the incompetence of Boris Johnson's government?

WastefulGroundedLiger-max-1mb.gif


I'm just surprised this wasn't written by Lauren Kuenssberg.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,982
The total death statistics will paint the true story.

And as I said already if all the 80 years old would get infected by COVID-19 much more than 10% would die in very short time because of it so I think it's a very strange argument.
 

Deleted member 31104

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
2,572
Imperial did get the UK government to change tact after updating their data set, but they also got the UK government to go on their original plan with their original model and data set. Imperial was slow to put data from Italy into the model sticking with the lower R value and hospitalisation rates.
 

DryCreek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,987
Regardless of whether they were going to die later in the year or not their lives have still been cut short by covid and the awful response of the UK government.

This piece really does sound like spin to defend the government being initially shit with dealing with rhe pandemic by downplaying deaths.
 

cyba89

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,628
Very irresponsible reporting. Of course there's an overlap but there's no way to know right now how big it will be. And once hospitals get overwhelmed and ICU beds are full many more people will die as a direct result of this pandemic.
 
Jan 31, 2018
1,430
But while deaths without the virus would be spread over the course of a year, those with the virus could come quickly and overwhelm the health service.

The only meaningful line out of that whole article. Anyway, this is what happens when the focus is entirely on the CFR instead of what really matters, i.e. the hospitalization rates.
 

Azraes

Member
Oct 28, 2017
997
London
I made a post about testing and reporting from a UK context - usually only post on the UK thread. I've just taken a few things out. And as I've mentioned before there will be an effort to control the narrative. Anyway responsible posting and messaging is key during this time.

Testing and reporting:

This is going to be a very tricky one. Mostly because when they say they'll increase testing in everyone country it means the next phase by involving kits and other things. Now those have a greater risk of false positives. I'll leave this article here for starters.

So the impact of undocumented transmissions as simulated from the Wuhan case. I've got alt text for the images so as to not make this post massive...

Impact of undocumented infections on the transmission of SARS-CoV2.  Simulations generated using the parameters reported in Table 1 with μ = 0.55 (red) and μ = 0 (blue) showing daily documented cases in all cities (A), daily documented cases in Wuhan city (B) and the number of cities with ≥ 10 cumulative documented cases (C). The box and whiskers show the median, interquartile range, and 95% credible intervals derived from 300 simulations.


Best-fit model and sensitivity analysis.  Simulation of daily reported cases in all cities (A), Wuhan city (B) and Hubei province (C). The blue box and whiskers show the median, interquartile range, and 95% credible intervals derived from 300 simulations using the best-fit model (Table 1). The red x’s are daily reported cases. The distribution of estimated Re is shown in (D). The impact of varying α and μ on Re with all other parameters held constant at Table 1 mean values (E). The black solid line indicates parameter combinations of (α,μ) yielding Re = 2.38. The estimated parameter combination α = 0.14 and μ = 0.55 is shown by the red x; the dashed box indicates the 95% credible interval of that estimate. Log-likelihood for simulations with combinations of (α,μ) and all other parameters held constant at Table 1 mean values (F). For each parameter combination, 300 simulations were performed. The best-fit estimated parameter combination α = 0.14 and μ = 0.55 is shown by the red x (note that the x is plotted at the lower left corner of its respective heat map pixel, i.e., the pixel with the highest log likelihood); the dashed box indicates the 95% credible interval of that estimate.


Overall, our findings indicate that a large proportion of COVID-19 infections were undocumented prior to the implementation of travel restrictions and other heightened control measures in China on 23 January, and that a large proportion of the total force of infection was mediated through these undocumented infections (Table 1). This high proportion of undocumented infections, many of whom were likely not severely symptomatic, appears to have facilitated the rapid spread of the virus throughout China. Indeed, suppression of the infectiousness of these undocumented cases in model simulations reduces the total number of documented cases and the overall spread of SARS-CoV2 (Fig. 2). In addition, the best-fitting model has a reporting delay of 9 days from initial infectiousness to confirmation; in contrast line-list data for the same 10–23 January period indicates an average 6.6 day delay from initial manifestation of symptoms to confirmation (17). This discrepancy suggests pre-symptomatic shedding may be typical among documented infections. The relative timing of viremia and shedding onset and peak versus symptom onset and peak has been shown to potentially affect outbreak control success (18).

Our findings also indicate that a radical increase in the identification and isolation of currently undocumented infections would be needed to fully control SARS-CoV2. Increased news coverage and awareness of the virus in the general population have already likely prompted increased rates of seeking medical care for respiratory symptoms. In addition, awareness among healthcare providers, public health officials and the availability of viral identification assays suggest that capacity for identifying previously missed infections has increased. Further, general population and government response efforts have increased the use of face masks, restricted travel, delayed school reopening and isolated suspected persons, all of which could additionally slow the spread of SARS-CoV2.


Right now, across several countries there is an issue as to who gets tested and this is why they have mostly been testing on people with convincing symptoms. The actual infection rate will be higher in every country if they test the wider population sample. They say there are plenty of test kits but these test kits have issues in general and this is why there have been false negatives which ultimately have resulted in the death of a few perceivably healthy individuals, often teenagers. We've seen it in France, I think we are starting to see it here too.
The bad news is that it could mean that the pandemic is more advanced than we thought. The good news is that a higher number of Covid-19 infections would make the case fatality rate lower than current estimates because we would be dividing by a larger number of cases.

Actually the former is quite likely true as we have now ascertained that the first deaths in the UK from COVID-19 happened before March.

Guardian Sourced:
The first known death of a patient with coronavirus in England occurred before March.
New figures from NHS England reveal that a patient died in a hospital in Liverpool University hospitals NHS foundation trust before March although no specific date is mentioned.
The data shows a total of six deaths occurred before 5 March, when the public was first notified of a death connected to the virus in hospitals in England.
However, the NHS figures indicate the death was previously reported in figures, although the actual date of death was not previously publicly known.

This does sort of indicate that the overall fatality rate is less than what we can see with infections. We now need to look at infections as those presented with very visible and strong symptoms and those hospitalised as the ones with extreme symptoms. We need to raise testing to find a more relevant statistic - how many infected develop extreme symptoms? This is the statistic that can help us plan healthcare needs, make sure we plan how many people need beds, ventilators and other devices. But for this we need to ramp up testing. But before we just ramp up testing we need to start focusing on our tests to develop better testing. How do we do this?

Fortunately we have hope with these tests but they aren't widespread as of yet despite the accuracy of 98.7%. A lot of countries are currently testing with greater inaccuracies in order to ramp up testing which is equally risky. Unless the US changed course, it was enroute to engaging cheaper and more inaccurate tests as of last week. The UK government is a poor peddler of hope, they start talking about testing 25k people daily before seeing if the tests were accurate or not, find out the tests are inaccurate and then backpedal.


Diagnostic tests are developed with both sensitivity and specificity in mind. The greater the sensitivity, the less likely it will miss real cases. The greater the specificity, the more likely uninfected individuals will be correctly deemed negative. Covid-19 testing


The problem is that tests almost never have 100% sensitivity and 100% specificity. The test and the truth together create four possibilities: true positives, true negatives, false positives and false negatives. There's a trade-off involved because an increasingly liberal test (more sensitive) will include more and more individuals in the population who do not actually have the disease (less specific). This trade-off has important implications for interpreting Covid-19 population trends based on testing to date and going forward.

Many diagnostic tests, even routine ones, are not rigorously validated against an external, real-world gold standard. The myriad new tests emerging for Covid-19 include at-home tests and rapid tests for point of service testing. They are produced by multiple vendors, each with different and as-yet-unmeasured accuracy. As serology testing for Covid-19 exposure and immunity is offered to the public, its false positive rates and false negative rates may be markedly different from the viral detection tests that have dominated to date.

Why a negative result doesn't necessarily mean you carry SARS-COV-2. (easier to digest article)

In terms of recovery on multiple fronts, the world was looking into China but now China has restarted a propoganda campaign, continued efforts on misinformation campaign, and is muddying the waters with semi-accurate numbers. Their activity such as shutting down cinemas but not entirely lifting bands and silencing certain people is paus for reflecting. Plus they are muddying our own reporting of their events.

Not always a fan of sky but this is accurate reporting.
news.sky.com

Coronavirus: Anger is growing at China over COVID-19 and its apparent cover-up attempt

China is facing a public relations catastrophe that is only likely to deepen, writes Sky's diplomatic editor Dominic Waghorn.

I was looking for other sources but even this Guardian article is a bit murky due to the source of Global times being often unreliable as a media source in media rankings

www.theguardian.com

China pivots to tackle 'silent' Covid-19 carriers as US says a quarter of cases may have no symptoms

Authorities in China will release tally of asymptomatic patients and order them into quarantine for 14 days as infections rise again

It goes without mention that WHO has silenced most information dissemination coming out of Taiwan. So accuracy of reports from China post mid-february unfortunately comes to doubt as they want to restart their manufacturing economy. Unfortunately this means we will need to observe Italy and Spain to see how contagion carries on for a more accurate analysis. This can lead to a global slowdown in actually curtailing infection for a little while. However we should stop global and regional mobility. This will be key for us to stopping the transmission until a cure/vaccine is developed.

This link is a good article on what we should read into with regards to data models. Currently the models are based on a lot of unknowns - what that means is that we should look at the pessimistic models and try to stop that scenario from happening - this is the better approach, because we shouldn't look at data models as something we should follow but as something we should try to prevent due to the large amount of unknowns here. If we follow models and think it's fine as long as we follow the model, it gets into really murky territory. To put it in a different way, it's like living paycheck to paycheck and not saving for a rainy day and thinking you should be fine because the quality of your life is alright, you take care of your health until of course you hit an emergency or have a life threatening accident and it throws all your plans awry. Modelling in these scenarios is essentially for rainy day planning so we can build a buffer for it. Unfortunately we have a lot of data illiterate people and they often sit in governments too.

You can see from a US perspective how counting bodies isn't an easy task and will be inaccurate quite often. I've mentioned before about controlling narrative, that we won't get an accurate death count until after the event and the models we see in terms of deaths will make the collective anxieties of a nation feel worse. But here's a good read albeit an American perspective.

www.theatlantic.com

The Interminable Body Count

We may never know how many people the coronavirus kills: “It sounds like it could be totally obvious—just count body bags. It’s not obvious at all.”

The UK's death curve is hard to predict but there's an important indicator, during the early days of COVID related deaths 4/10 deaths came in from London, now 1/3 deaths come in from London. This indicates that the rate of deaths outside London is increasing or the rate of deaths within London is starting to come to a point where it will soon plateau as we continue the measures, while it will rise in other areas. The West Midlands is the second biggest hub of hospital deaths while the NE and SW as well as Wales have lower deaths. We need to start measuring regional death rate as they record death rate regularly to get a good idea where it's rising/declining and the rate.

If you look at the ONS stats - what is interesting to report is that the net deaths we had in England+Wales over the same period this year is lower than what we had last year. But as the death rate picks up it should even out or go in the reverse direction. The other tricky thing is that they record deaths to both Influenza and COVID for the same death - they should be careful with those cases especially with the ones dealing with the corpses given that this is the advisory.

As viable SARS-CoV-2 may persist on surfaces for days [7], there is the possibility that the virus also persists on deceased bodies. Therefore,unnecessarycontact with bodiesshould be minimised by those not wearing personal protective equipment (PPE).Those in direct contact with deceased cases of COVID-19(both suspected or confirmed)should be protected from exposure to infected bodily fluids, contaminated objects, or other contaminated environmental surfacesthrough wearing ofappropriate PPE. Minimum requirements include gloves and a long-sleeved water-resistant gown.

So onto deaths and critical care. This requires quite an in-depth analysis and I've already rambled on for so long here. So let's take a look at ICNARC's report on the 774 patients in critical care.

Current median for survivors seems to be 6 days and for non survivors 7 days based on the tables in the linked PDF.



London is clearly the hub but you can see that spike in the West Midlands for admissions logged.



We really need to improve recovery rates, if we are to free up beds and this will be the factor that stresses up the beds. To get there we need less influx of patients into critical care. Given that it's likely most people who are tested are those who have heavy signs/symptoms or those who have come into contact with someone already contagious unless we extend the lockdown periods we will as everyone knows definitely stress the system out.

I was hoping yesterday's increase and following the daily spike of infections meant that today would see a lowering of hospital deaths into the 400s at least but given the prior day was 381 that was probably too optimistic but I did think it would be lower than yesterday and looking at the daily infections and daily deaths graph it is harder to say with accuracy as it's a lot more regional than one would think - however it should not see a ridiculous rise for another 2-3 days and then there should be a spike which will maintain for a few more days before there's another one. It's oddly proportional to the rate of case increases from a few days before but it's an approximation and I wouldn't really put too much weight into it until the observable pattern continues for longer, however at that point there potentially can be more stress on the NHS.


Edit: I would say to please read information and sources and understand what data modelling entails, what the purpose is , what it means and how you should look at it. Don't be dismissive entirely but at the same time, articles like this do not paint the big picture - give limited understanding and let's signal boost something that explains it rather than stresses people and causes anxiety/fury/etc.
 
OP
OP
Garfield

Garfield

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 31, 2018
2,772
What the hell is the point of this information? What are they trying to accomplish by saying this?

if I am reading it right they are saying because Covid is reportable someone who may of been about to die but also tested for Covid is being reported as a Covid death, when in reality death was imminent due to other conditions
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
With that screwed up idiotic logic we should openly be allowed to murder people over 80.
 

devilhawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,536
Well in that case, it shouldn't matter if I punch him in the face as someone else was inevitably going to punch him in the face anyways.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,769
I don't like a take like this, my gran is 90, say she gets this and dies, that's terrible for our family but then research like this just says to me "she old anyway probably would have maybe died anyway of something else at some point"

Everyone dies, I feel like this is a horrible way to look at people dying of a specific disease and to downplay it because probably something else would have killed these people.
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,733
welcome, nowhere

Airegin

Member
Dec 10, 2017
3,900
if I am reading it right they are saying because Covid is reportable someone who may of been about to die but also tested for Covid is being reported as a Covid death, when in reality death was imminent due to other conditions

I think they're saying most would have died within the next few years. Which simply cannot be proven.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,989
I know a few people young people that got caught by the virus and they got traumatized by it. Yeah they survived but they felt they were in a life or death situation. I get that most people don't get heavy symptoms but those that do are not always old people that were going to die anyway. Everybody should be as careful as possible and try not to get it.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,535
here
"grandma was gonna her poisoned by a rival grandma from her knitting circle anyways"
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,157
Greater Vancouver
In fact, why save people from drowning? Or auto accidents, or fires, or treat any other kind of illness? These people are just gonna die at some point anyway?

Now would you like to buy an Atlas Shrugged shirt or not?
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,733
welcome, nowhere
I made a post about testing and reporting from a UK context - usually only post on the UK thread. I've just taken a few things out. And as I've mentioned before there will be an effort to control the narrative. Anyway responsible posting and messaging is key during this time.

Testing and reporting:

This is going to be a very tricky one. Mostly because when they say they'll increase testing in everyone country it means the next phase by involving kits and other things. Now those have a greater risk of false positives. I'll leave this article here for starters.

So the impact of undocumented transmissions as simulated from the Wuhan case. I've got alt text for the images so as to not make this post massive...

Impact of undocumented infections on the transmission of SARS-CoV2.  Simulations generated using the parameters reported in Table 1 with μ = 0.55 (red) and μ = 0 (blue) showing daily documented cases in all cities (A), daily documented cases in Wuhan city (B) and the number of cities with ≥ 10 cumulative documented cases (C). The box and whiskers show the median, interquartile range, and 95% credible intervals derived from 300 simulations.


Best-fit model and sensitivity analysis.  Simulation of daily reported cases in all cities (A), Wuhan city (B) and Hubei province (C). The blue box and whiskers show the median, interquartile range, and 95% credible intervals derived from 300 simulations using the best-fit model (Table 1). The red x’s are daily reported cases. The distribution of estimated Re is shown in (D). The impact of varying α and μ on Re with all other parameters held constant at Table 1 mean values (E). The black solid line indicates parameter combinations of (α,μ) yielding Re = 2.38. The estimated parameter combination α = 0.14 and μ = 0.55 is shown by the red x; the dashed box indicates the 95% credible interval of that estimate. Log-likelihood for simulations with combinations of (α,μ) and all other parameters held constant at Table 1 mean values (F). For each parameter combination, 300 simulations were performed. The best-fit estimated parameter combination α = 0.14 and μ = 0.55 is shown by the red x (note that the x is plotted at the lower left corner of its respective heat map pixel, i.e., the pixel with the highest log likelihood); the dashed box indicates the 95% credible interval of that estimate.





Right now, across several countries there is an issue as to who gets tested and this is why they have mostly been testing on people with convincing symptoms. The actual infection rate will be higher in every country if they test the wider population sample. They say there are plenty of test kits but these test kits have issues in general and this is why there have been false negatives which ultimately have resulted in the death of a few perceivably healthy individuals, often teenagers. We've seen it in France, I think we are starting to see it here too.


Actually the former is quite likely true as we have now ascertained that the first deaths in the UK from COVID-19 happened before March.



This does sort of indicate that the overall fatality rate is less than what we can see with infections. We now need to look at infections as those presented with very visible and strong symptoms and those hospitalised as the ones with extreme symptoms. We need to raise testing to find a more relevant statistic - how many infected develop extreme symptoms? This is the statistic that can help us plan healthcare needs, make sure we plan how many people need beds, ventilators and other devices. But for this we need to ramp up testing. But before we just ramp up testing we need to start focusing on our tests to develop better testing. How do we do this?

Fortunately we have hope with these tests but they aren't widespread as of yet despite the accuracy of 98.7%. A lot of countries are currently testing with greater inaccuracies in order to ramp up testing which is equally risky. Unless the US changed course, it was enroute to engaging cheaper and more inaccurate tests as of last week. The UK government is a poor peddler of hope, they start talking about testing 25k people daily before seeing if the tests were accurate or not, find out the tests are inaccurate and then backpedal.


Diagnostic tests are developed with both sensitivity and specificity in mind. The greater the sensitivity, the less likely it will miss real cases. The greater the specificity, the more likely uninfected individuals will be correctly deemed negative. Covid-19 testing




Many diagnostic tests, even routine ones, are not rigorously validated against an external, real-world gold standard. The myriad new tests emerging for Covid-19 include at-home tests and rapid tests for point of service testing. They are produced by multiple vendors, each with different and as-yet-unmeasured accuracy. As serology testing for Covid-19 exposure and immunity is offered to the public, its false positive rates and false negative rates may be markedly different from the viral detection tests that have dominated to date.

Why a negative result doesn't necessarily mean you carry SARS-COV-2. (easier to digest article)

In terms of recovery on multiple fronts, the world was looking into China but now China has restarted a propoganda campaign, continued efforts on misinformation campaign, and is muddying the waters with semi-accurate numbers. Their activity such as shutting down cinemas but not entirely lifting bands and silencing certain people is paus for reflecting. Plus they are muddying our own reporting of their events.

Not always a fan of sky but this is accurate reporting.
news.sky.com

Coronavirus: Anger is growing at China over COVID-19 and its apparent cover-up attempt

China is facing a public relations catastrophe that is only likely to deepen, writes Sky's diplomatic editor Dominic Waghorn.

I was looking for other sources but even this Guardian article is a bit murky due to the source of Global times being often unreliable as a media source in media rankings

www.theguardian.com

China pivots to tackle 'silent' Covid-19 carriers as US says a quarter of cases may have no symptoms

Authorities in China will release tally of asymptomatic patients and order them into quarantine for 14 days as infections rise again

It goes without mention that WHO has silenced most information dissemination coming out of Taiwan. So accuracy of reports from China post mid-february unfortunately comes to doubt as they want to restart their manufacturing economy. Unfortunately this means we will need to observe Italy and Spain to see how contagion carries on for a more accurate analysis. This can lead to a global slowdown in actually curtailing infection for a little while. However we should stop global and regional mobility. This will be key for us to stopping the transmission until a cure/vaccine is developed.

This link is a good article on what we should read into with regards to data models. Currently the models are based on a lot of unknowns - what that means is that we should look at the pessimistic models and try to stop that scenario from happening - this is the better approach, because we shouldn't look at data models as something we should follow but as something we should try to prevent due to the large amount of unknowns here. If we follow models and think it's fine as long as we follow the model, it gets into really murky territory. To put it in a different way, it's like living paycheck to paycheck and not saving for a rainy day and thinking you should be fine because the quality of your life is alright, you take care of your health until of course you hit an emergency or have a life threatening accident and it throws all your plans awry. Modelling in these scenarios is essentially for rainy day planning so we can build a buffer for it. Unfortunately we have a lot of data illiterate people and they often sit in governments too.

You can see from a US perspective how counting bodies isn't an easy task and will be inaccurate quite often. I've mentioned before about controlling narrative, that we won't get an accurate death count until after the event and the models we see in terms of deaths will make the collective anxieties of a nation feel worse. But here's a good read albeit an American perspective.

www.theatlantic.com

The Interminable Body Count

We may never know how many people the coronavirus kills: “It sounds like it could be totally obvious—just count body bags. It’s not obvious at all.”

The UK's death curve is hard to predict but there's an important indicator, during the early days of COVID related deaths 4/10 deaths came in from London, now 1/3 deaths come in from London. This indicates that the rate of deaths outside London is increasing or the rate of deaths within London is starting to come to a point where it will soon plateau as we continue the measures, while it will rise in other areas. The West Midlands is the second biggest hub of hospital deaths while the NE and SW as well as Wales have lower deaths. We need to start measuring regional death rate as they record death rate regularly to get a good idea where it's rising/declining and the rate.

If you look at the ONS stats - what is interesting to report is that the net deaths we had in England+Wales over the same period this year is lower than what we had last year. But as the death rate picks up it should even out or go in the reverse direction. The other tricky thing is that they record deaths to both Influenza and COVID for the same death - they should be careful with those cases especially with the ones dealing with the corpses given that this is the advisory.



So onto deaths and critical care. This requires quite an in-depth analysis and I've already rambled on for so long here. So let's take a look at ICNARC's report on the 774 patients in critical care.

Current median for survivors seems to be 6 days and for non survivors 7 days based on the tables in the linked PDF.



London is clearly the hub but you can see that spike in the West Midlands for admissions logged.



We really need to improve recovery rates, if we are to free up beds and this will be the factor that stresses up the beds. To get there we need less influx of patients into critical care. Given that it's likely most people who are tested are those who have heavy signs/symptoms or those who have come into contact with someone already contagious unless we extend the lockdown periods we will as everyone knows definitely stress the system out.

I was hoping yesterday's increase and following the daily spike of infections meant that today would see a lowering of hospital deaths into the 400s at least but given the prior day was 381 that was probably too optimistic but I did think it would be lower than yesterday and looking at the daily infections and daily deaths graph it is harder to say with accuracy as it's a lot more regional than one would think - however it should not see a ridiculous rise for another 2-3 days and then there should be a spike which will maintain for a few more days before there's another one. It's oddly proportional to the rate of case increases from a few days before but it's an approximation and I wouldn't really put too much weight into it until the observable pattern continues for longer, however at that point there potentially can be more stress on the NHS.


Edit: I would say to please read information and sources and understand what data modelling entails, what the purpose is , what it means and how you should look at it. Don't be dismissive entirely but at the same time, articles like this do not paint the big picture - give limited understanding and let's signal boost something that explains it rather than stresses people and causes anxiety/fury/etc.

This is a lot of info, but I am starting to see a lot more people talk about false positives and negatives. Testing will never be perfect.

I'm also annoyed by the murkiness of China's numbers, and the way every government is trying to spin on their response.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
in italy's most hit regions the amount of dead people per day was 10 times the normal in the worst days

and even when you stretch it through the entire mmonth, x3 more people died than the previous year

but it's true, we are all gonna die sooner or later, i'll give them that
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,837
This statement and other things like "don't panic! only old people will die" are really upsetting, specially when old people hear these things on TV. It makes old men and women feel like some useless people who their lives aren't that important. :(
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,089
Sydney
Are the English in some sort of competition with the Americans for who can have the most psychotic disregard for human life or something?
 

twofold

Member
Oct 28, 2017
543
When making policy decisions, data need to be considered free from emotional arguments, and the data in the OP is going to be pivotal for making good decisions in the coming weeks.

There is a metric called Qaly that determines whether the NHS will invest into a drug -

> NICE uses a unit of measurement called the "Qaly" - the "quality-adjusted life year". It gauges drug effectiveness in terms of how much it would cost to give you a year of healthy life.

> So a drug that cost ÂŁ50,000 and gave patients an extra six months of life in good health would cost ÂŁ100,000 for a full Qaly. If the same drug at the same price was much better, and led to two years of life in good health, it would cost about ÂŁ25,000 per Qaly.

> NICE aims to spend less than ÂŁ20,000 to ÂŁ30,000 per Qaly. That is not a hard limit; it will go almost twice as high for end-of-life drugs. NICE accepts that, at the very end, a small amount of extra time can seem to be worth a lot more to patients and families.

In the coming days decisions will be made to determine if the hit to the economy caused by the lockdown (and thus the cost in terms of Qaly) and the health cost of the lockdown (mental health deterioration, suicides, domestic abuse, poverty caused by unemployment, etc.) are a fair trade off in terms of Coronavirus lives saved, and modelling like this will be pivotal for enabling policy makers to make the least worst decision (because lets face it - whether we keep the lockdown going or not, it's a shit situation either way).

I'm glad the BBC (and Cambridge and Imperial) published this so we could have some insight into the data being used to make these decisions.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,535
here
In fact, why save people from drowning? Or auto accidents, or fires, or treat any other kind of illness? These people are just gonna die at some point anyway?

Now would you like to buy an Atlas Shrugged shirt or not?
if you think about it, people over 50 are closer to death than birth statistically

so are they even 'alive'? 🤔
 

Bedlam

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,536
Well shit, old and sick people probably die "soon-ish" anyway (where "soon" still basically means anything between "tomorrow" and "in a decade or two" because no one knows for sure). News at 11! That's also a good argument for not having hospitals and health-care at all. The UK should really think about that then.
 

Ashhong

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,591
Who cares?? This is the shit some people sit down and actually waste their time on?
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,105
This is some 100% of people who drink water will die eventually troll logic.
 
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