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Taka

Member
Apr 27, 2018
989
As debate rages around the world about who should be vaccinated first, Mexico has come up with its own unconventional approach — one with no apparent epidemiological foundation. The government of populist president Andrés Manuel López Obrador, who campaigned on the slogan "First, the poor," is prioritizing the country's most disadvantaged citizens, using the vaccine as a kind of reparation for years of marginalization.

Teachers in rural villages, some of the country's poorest farmers, elderly members of far-flung Indigenous communities: They will receive coronavirus vaccinations before almost any of Mexico's city-dwellers, who have endured the worst outbreaks. In many cases, the rural poor have been vaccinated even before the medical personnel in charge of administering the shots.
It's an approach that López Obrador's supporters embrace — proof that their president is on the right side of Mexico's profound class divide. But to many public health professionals, it is scientifically irrational, evidence that politics are distorting the vaccination drive. Most of the communities being prioritized have had relatively low coronavirus caseloads. Most are rural or semirural towns, where social distancing was never a challenge.

"This is a vision that has no basis in epidemiology," said Fernando Petersen Aranguren, the secretary of health in Jalisco state. "This has nothing to do with public health and doesn't focus on the need to break the chain of contagion."

Aranguren wanted to distribute doses in Guadalajara, Mexico's second-largest city, where more than 71,000 people have been infected with the virus. But the federal government, which has near-total control over vaccine procurement and distribution, instead gave him a list of small towns and villages it told him to prioritize.
But in the government's rush to get doses to the poor, many of the nurses and doctors in charge of the vaccination program — including the ones who attended to Hass — had not yet been vaccinated themselves.

"It's scary to be here, so exposed, without getting the vaccine, but what can we do?" said Silvia Garcia, one of the nurses assigned to San Pedro. "We can't refuse to work."

López Obrador has refused to be vaccinated until doses are made available in his Mexico City district. Critics have called the decision a theatrical show of humility. While waiting for the vaccine, López Obrador contracted the virus in January. The country's coronavirus czar, Hugo López-Gatell, fell sick this month.
Mexico's government has provided little economic assistance to the country's poor during the pandemic, even as unemployment has surged. Yet López Obrador's approval ratings, in several polls, remain over 60 percent — proof, some analysts say, of his political mastery.

Many of López Obrador's followers come from the country's poorest communities, traditionally neglected by the country's political elite. They are fiercely loyal to the president, who frames his social policies as a historic effort at narrowing the nation's stark inequalities. Even a vaccination campaign is an opportunity to showcase his progressive bona fides.
"The rationale is: 'We are doing it this way because it is time to make justice,' " said Xavier Tello, a health policy analyst in Mexico City. "The problem is that the government has not shown any evidence that supports the epidemiological calculus behind this decision. They have not shown any evidence of higher mortality rates in those places, and so they are wasting vaccines and diverting them from places where they are more needed."
 

J2C

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,397
Hm. I would say the poor people I've known have often cared for the selves the least. And put themselves in precarious positions. Rich seem to have more barriers of protection. Be it traveling in a nice car, living in gated communities, affording food delivery, not being forced to work in poor conditions, without protection, richer jobs having more work-from-home opportunity, etc etc.

But your medical staff always makes sense to be first, can agree there
 

Dakkon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,193
Surprised people think this is (mostly) OK. Administering vaccines based on wealth (regardless of poor to rich or rich to poor) is lunacy.

There's a reason basically every country vaccinates based on risk level of either dying to the disease or spreading it to an exceptional amount of vulnerable people....it's cause it makes the most sense.

It's why the ideal rollout, of any vaccine for a virus of this level is:

1) Doctors, nurses, long term care facility caretakers. (frontlines, biggest spreaders to the most vulnerable who are already fucked up, especially since these people can interact with patients who have either no or a compromised immune system etc)
2) Frontline essential workers who are incapable of doing a job socially distanced (first responders, teachers, food and ag, manufacturing, inmates, USPS, public transit, grocery store workers, etc.)
3) People with diseases that make them more vulnerable to the virus. (asthma, etc)
4) Everyone else.

If this is true, then what Mexico is doing is not good. Feels are not more important than reals.

e:

Looks like it might not be true? If so, good, coz it's dumb.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
Yeah, that's usually what happens when you have an idiot populist as your president. Science and research? Fuck that, let's get more voters.

Surprised people think this is (mostly) OK. Administering vaccines based on wealth (regardless of poor to rich or rich to poor) is lunacy.



There's a reason basically every country vaccinates based on risk level of either dying to the disease or spreading it to an exceptional amount of vulnerable people....it's cause it makes the most sense.



It's why the ideal rollout, of any vaccine for a virus of this level is:



1) Doctors, nurses, long term care facility caretakers. (frontlines, biggest spreaders to the most vulnerable who are already fucked up, especially since these people can interact with patients who have either no or a compromised immune system etc)

2) Frontline essential workers who are incapable of doing a job socially distanced (first responders, teachers, food and ag, manufacturing, inmates, USPS, public transit, grocery store workers, etc.)

3) People with diseases that make them more vulnerable to the virus. (asthma, etc)

4) Everyone else.

Thank you.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
I get wanting to help the poor, but in this case they should really listen to the doctors.

Could probably make an argument to vaccinate the poor immediately after health care workers, though. The poor are most likely essential workers, and probably have less means of avoiding contact with others in day to day life.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Seems like a bad idea, just because there's really no way to confirm whether or not a patient is poor. Anybody can just walk up and claim they need the vaccine.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
The first to be vaccinated here where the health workers and currently the effort for the elderly is ongoing. Why the impression is different? It doesn't specify in the article? (Haven't read it yet)

Also this measure has created lots of attacks towards AMLO from the wealthy Mexicans, which wanted to use money and corruption to get the vaccine first (some of them, go the US to get vaccines)

FUCK THEM i say (the corrupt ones). First the medical staff (done already) then the elderly (currently ongoing effort) and then the poor.
 

Machine Law

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,106
Why not poor city dwellers instead of rural areas? There are probably plenty of poor people that take the crowded metro in Mexico City everyday that need the vaccine much more than people in rural areas.
 

Deleted member 11008

User requested account closure
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,627
If the goverment really wanted to help the poor they should have some kind of economic stimulus to incentive people stay at their homes. And honestly the idea to vaccine poor people is not bad, but if you haven't finished to give the vaccine to nurses, doctors and people working at hospitals then you are not giving the vaccine to help the population, you are doing this for populist reasons.

Doesn't sound like the best idea.

When is the presidential election again?

3 years, tho we have legislative elections this year.
 

Eddman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
644
Mexico
Mexican here, the article is wrong, medical staff received the vaccine first. What are their sources?

Also, vaccination in Mexico City started like two weeks ago, what are they talking about?

With no reliable sources quoted and suspisciously written shortly after AMLO openly criticized vaccine hoarding from countries like the US, I'll take this one with a grain of salt.
 
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Bisha Monkey

Banned
Aug 12, 2018
775
Wow I can't believe they are straight up lying (I can believe it, considering it's coming from WAPO) That article is filled with a lot of false information, information that is accesible to the general public through the official Coronavirus site of the mexican government.

First of all, over six hundred thousand of medical personnel have been vaccinated across the country (To put this number into perspective, the public health system of the country, IMSS, has approximately 400,000 health workers in the payroll, between doctors and nurses) , and were the very first group that got access to the vaccine, starting this past December, all of that according to the national vaccination plan.

And for the second part, about vaccinating teachers, such criteria will only apply when the territory is already in the green zone:

Vaccination of older adults will have a primary focus of greater territorial vulnerability, so it will start with the population residing in scattered rural areas and will progressively continue all the way to metropolitan areas. The local epidemiological situation serves as a criterion of flexibility to prioritize territorially or by occupation according to the viral activity. Places with maximum risk can be prioritized for mass vaccination accelerated, or at low risk to reactivate socio-economic activities such as face-to-face school activity.... at the lowest risk epidemic possible at that time, the teaching staff becomes priority group to be immunized given the importance of returning to face-to-face school activities, thus mitigating the risk of falling behind educational and development of minors.

And lastly, this part is complete BS "Most are rural or semirural towns, where social distancing was never a challenge.". Most people in Rural areas live in overcrowded houses, and they usually have to move to the big cities on a daily basis for work. So their risk of getting infected and their family rises exponentially, not to mention access to health services for them is much more difficult.

Whoever wrote this article clearly has no idea of what they are talking about and has clear tints of classism.
 
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Eddman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
644
Mexico
Wow I can't believe they are straight up lying (I can believe it, considering it's coming from WAPO) That article is filled with a lot of false information, information that is accesible to the general public through the official Coronavirus site of the mexican government.

First of all, over six hundred thousand of medical personnel have been vaccinated across the country (To put this number into perspective, the public health system of the country, IMSS, has approximately 200,000 health workers in the payroll, between doctors and nurses) , and were the very first group that got access to the vaccine, starting this past December, all of that according to the national vaccination plan.

And for the second part, about vaccinating teachers, that will only apply when the territory is already in the green zone:



And lastly, this part is complete BS "Most are rural or semirural towns, where social distancing was never a challenge.". Most people in Rural areas live in overcrowded houses, and they usually have to move to the big cities on a daily basis for work. So their risk of getting infected and their family rises exponentially, not to mention access to health services for them is much more difficult.

Whoever wrote this article clearly has no idea of what they are talking about and has clear tints of classism.

Agreed, reads like whitexican propaganda to blame the poor for Covid related deaths. In the same vein of all the "Mexico will turn into Venezuela" ignorant speech.

I disagree in many things with López Obrador policies, but using straight up lies disguised as criticism is pathetic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,466
Sweden
poorer people are not able to work from home. this approach actually makes a lot of sense if you want to minimize community spread. almost everywhere in the world, less well-off people have been driving spread of the virus. the swedish public health agency also recommend regions to prioritize vaccination of people of lower socioeconomic status over more well-off ones, much to the chagrin of some of our right-wing politicians. (though elderly people and medical staff have higher priority still, of course)
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
There may be something in this, as working class people are much more likely to be denied the ability to work from home and so could be considered likelier spreaders - as we have seen in Europe, there has been a lot of spreading through workplaces that aren't COVID safe. People are saying that medical staff actually were vaccinated first so it's perhaps not the craziest solution. That said, the risk to the most vulnerable who cannot isolate is by far the most concern in this and worries me for the consequences

EDIT: ^what they said
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,081
poorer people are not able to work from home. this approach actually makes a lot of sense if you want to minimize community spread. almost everywhere in the world, less well-off people have been driving spread of the virus. the swedish public health agency also recommend regions to prioritize vaccination of people of lower socioeconomic status over more well-off ones, much to the chagrin of some of our right-wing politicians. (though elderly people and medical staff have higher priority still, of course)
If they were targeting frontline workers, that'd make sense. But according to the article they're targeting rural poor, because the real goal is to favor the president's supporters. That's super fucked up.

Like, vaccinating all teachers? Great. Vaccinating specifically teachers in remote (read: conservative) villages, and ignoring those in cities? Not great.

As the title says: this isn't driven by any health rationale.
 

Bisha Monkey

Banned
Aug 12, 2018
775
Agreed, reads like whitexican propaganda to blame the poor for Covid related deaths. In the same vein of all the "Mexico will turn into Venezuela" ignorant speech.

I disagree in many things with López Obrador policies, but using straight up lies disguised as criticism is pathetic.

Exactly my thoughts, this just reads like propaganda without any basis on real evidence, just like those so called "intellectuals" that come with the most wild conspiracy shit they can come up with. And I agree, there is lots of things I would criticize about his government and have done so, the national vaccination plan isn't one of them.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,310
He wants to secure votes for his party Morena and getting the recognition of "taking care of the pandemic" by skipping the state governments of the vaccination programs. He's way too involved with the military as well, since they're involved in delivering and handling the vaccines, while getting juicy contracts from the federal government.

He doesn't give a fuck about poor people being poor, he just wants to reap the votes and leave them in their misery.

There's also the fact that he has displayed a very awful disregard towards women's and indirectly supporting a rapist as a state government candidate for the June elections, but that's another story.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,613
I think the spirit is in the right place (vaccinating those least equipped to seek treatment if infected) but not vaccinati to those most likely to to be transmission vectors first is just applying these very inefficiently.
 

King Dodongo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,026
Well, the idiot we have as president always does things in order to achieve his own interests, every decision in his government has the classic "little words" that the citizens suffer weeks or months later.
 

Barbarossa

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,271
Mexican here, the article is wrong, medical staff received the vaccine first. What are their sources?

Also, vaccination in Mexico City started like two weeks ago, what are they talking about?

With no reliable sources quoted and suspisciously written shortly after AMLO openly criticized vaccine hoarding from countries like the US, I'll take this one with a grain of salt.
Where is there vaccine hoarding?
 

Nlroh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
78
It's true, I don't know where some of you live but at least my dad was even considering going to his parents hometown (a rural town) because people in his age bracket are already getting vaccinated there, right now there are no vaccines for people his age in the city he is living
 

Sr Kitsune

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
Baja California, Mexico
They should finish first the medical workers, my sister (medic) and his husband's (who is the one in charge of the covid zone in his hospital, in Sinaloa) have yet to be vaccinated. Heard the same from a friend in Nuevo Leon.

I did heard that my girlfriend aunt has been vaccinated along with many of relatives. They are in Puebla.

Anecdotal stories, but to me sure sounds like his party strongholds go first.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
Glad to see that some people are calling out the lies and bullshit of that article, which is classic at this point. OP should consider it.

It is more concerning that some Mexicans in this thread (The usual ones) know that the article is full of lies and STILL continue to follow that narrative, such dishonest people.

Oh and by the way, the Federal government stopped the state governments to handle vaccines on their own due to how untrustworthy they are, just recently the president said they can buy them with their own money, which of course they haven't. So anyone trying to use this talking point should stop right there.
 

Eddman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
644
Mexico
I'm not sure what specifically obrador said about that, but it's not exactly a secret that well-off countries, including USA, the EU and UK are buying up most of the vaccine doses available, leaving poorer countries with extremely limited access to the vaccines

He basically said the UN is doing jackshit to make rich countries respect the COVAX global program, in one of his daily press conferences.
 

Eila

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,942
Note: Mexico is the worst country in the world when it comes to handling the pandemic.
 

Barbarossa

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,271
I'm not sure what specifically obrador said about that, but it's not exactly a secret that well-off countries, including USA, the EU and UK are buying up most of the vaccine doses available, leaving poorer countries with extremely limited access to the vaccines
Oh that I figured was going on, but I also thought that shots were going to front line workers outside of the production countries. Obviously not in the amount to disrupt vaccinations to at risk populations in said countries.
 

Bisha Monkey

Banned
Aug 12, 2018
775
They should finish first the medical workers, my sister (medic) and his husband's (who is the one in charge of the covid zone in his hospital, in Sinaloa) have yet to be vaccinated. Heard the same from a friend in Nuevo Leon.

I did heard that my girlfriend aunt has been vaccinated along with many of relatives. They are in Puebla.

Anecdotal stories, but to me sure sounds like his party strongholds go first.

If there were some true to this theory, the official map of vaccination sites will be located on the southeast and on Baja California, which isn't the case.


Adding up to your argument, I have some family in the field that haven't gotten their vaccine, unfortunately, most of the administrative pigs already got theirs... Corruption must be the common denominator in most cases of medical workers not getting their shot.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Yeah this article is bullshit. I know for a fact that medical personnel has been vaccinated for one or two months now, and I personally know a couple of them that they were vaccinated as soon as the shots were available.

Also, there's a lot of poor people in this country. Not everyone has the 'luxury' of working from home.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
On the one hand, it's good to get people in poorer regions vaccinated asap as they may not have equal access to healthcare or prevention methods.

On the other, places with huge concentrations of people are clearly the ones overwhelmed ie the biggest cities and this is independent of socioeconomic status.

They have also been going by age groups throughout the country, it's not like they are only vaccinating in poorer regions and ignoring others. BUT I do think rollout needs to be faster in bigger cities given they are the hotspots.

Doesn't sound like the best idea.

When is the presidential election again?

Not for president, but there are elections in June for several governorships and other important positions. And despite promising they would not use the vaccine for propaganda, the President's party has... you guessed it, been using it for propaganda.

First the medical staff (done already) then the elderly (currently ongoing effort) and then the poor.

My partner works in a private hospital with a covid wing. Has not been vaccinated and it's March. Also knows people working in public and private hospitals that haven't been vaccinated either. So no, medical staff is not done despite promises they would be a priority.
 

Pororoka

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,210
MX
The plan needs a better execution I agree, but the article is bullshit.

www.animalpolitico.com/elsabueso/gobierno-habilito-sitio-registro-vacunas-personal-medico/ (In spanish)

Here in mid January medical personnel were the first and only ones to apply for the shots via web, and in February the vaccination for the general public would start. Here is also a quote of AMLO from the article:

"We have the plan to finish vaccinating in this month (January) all health workers in COVID hospitals throughout the country to begin the broad, massive vaccination, in early February, of older adults," said President Andrés Manuel López Obrador in his conference this Monday (Jan-11-21).

And here is said excerpt from the conference:




https://www.eleconomista.com.mx/art...-19-a-medicos-y-enfermeras-20210212-0075.html (In spanish)

Article from Feb 12: 726002 doses of around 766k of Pfizer's vaccine that was received from January had already been applied to medical staff (doctors, nurses, hospital personnel), some teachers in Campeche had already started to receive the shot too.

But, as good mexicans if an international source said so, it must be truth! Fuck the ones under me, I'm most important because I have a bigger paycheck and I can work from home, so I need to have better privileges. Meanwhile, I have to get on a crowded bus to the factory so you can get your fucking phones, consoles and cyber-trash to your fucking online retailer of choice for less than US$4.500 a year.

Also, watch as the same people just drive-by here to never return.
 

Operations

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,176
The plan needs a better execution I agree, but the article is bullshit.

www.animalpolitico.com/elsabueso/gobierno-habilito-sitio-registro-vacunas-personal-medico/ (In spanish)

Here in mid January medical personnel were the first and only ones to apply for the shots via web, and in February the vaccination for the general public would start. Here is also a quote of AMLO from the article:

"We have the plan to finish vaccinating in this month (January) all health workers in COVID hospitals throughout the country to begin the broad, massive vaccination, in early February, of older adults," said President Andrés Manuel López Obrador in his conference this Monday (Jan-11-21).

And here is said excerpt from the conference:




https://www.eleconomista.com.mx/art...-19-a-medicos-y-enfermeras-20210212-0075.html (In spanish)

Article from Feb 12: 726002 doses of around 766k of Pfizer's vaccine that was received from January had already been applied to medical staff (doctors, nurses, hospital personnel), some teachers in Campeche had already started to receive the shot too.

But, as good mexicans if an international source said so, it must be truth! Fuck the ones under me, I'm most important because I have a bigger paycheck and I can work from home, so I need to have better privileges. Meanwhile, I have to get on a crowded bus to the factory so you can get your fucking phones, consoles and cyber-trash to your fucking online retailer of choice for less than US$4.500 a year.

Also, watch as the same people just drive-by here to never return.

While I agree the article is not clear enough, I believe there are still protests across the country from medical personnel which haven't received the vaccine.
 

Pororoka

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,210
MX
While I agree the article is not clear enough, I believe there are still protests across the country from medical personnel which haven't received the vaccine.
I'm well aware of that hence why I said that the plan needed better execution (or better organization for that matter); An ISSSTE clinic near here is having that problem here iirc.

I just wanted to point out that the WaPo article is bullshit without foundation and that the same people just pile on because it fits their narrative disregarding anything that doesn't fall in line with what they want to hear or read.
 

Deleted member 11008

User requested account closure
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,627
Here is the most recent summary about Covid in México: https://www.gob.mx/cms/uploads/attachment/file/618559/CP_Salud_CTD_coronavirus_COVID-19__25feb21.pdf

1.png


Yeah health workers are being vacinned, but not all yet, I hope the rest can get the full dose soon.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
While I agree the article is not clear enough, I believe there are still protests across the country from medical personnel which haven't received the vaccine.
Sure that's possible but when 700k medical staff have already gotten doses while there are 400k people on the public healthcare payroll it's fairly suggestive they've been working hard to prioritize giving medical staff vaccines which undercuts the lie in the washintonpost article.
 

Bisha Monkey

Banned
Aug 12, 2018
775
While I agree the article is not clear enough, I believe there are still protests across the country from medical personnel which haven't received the vaccine.

That's definetly an issue that needs to be adressed, nepotism is going to screw up a lot of the medical operatives working on the line, because Hospital directives aren't being transparent with the to-be vaccinated lists. (https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/sal...-en-hospital-de-gineco-obstetricia-4-del-imss) And they are the ones responsible of selecting the staff, a bunch of them have already been fired for these same practices.

The plan needs a better execution I agree, but the article is bullshit.

www.animalpolitico.com/elsabueso/gobierno-habilito-sitio-registro-vacunas-personal-medico/ (In spanish)

Here in mid January medical personnel were the first and only ones to apply for the shots via web, and in February the vaccination for the general public would start. Here is also a quote of AMLO from the article:

"We have the plan to finish vaccinating in this month (January) all health workers in COVID hospitals throughout the country to begin the broad, massive vaccination, in early February, of older adults," said President Andrés Manuel López Obrador in his conference this Monday (Jan-11-21).

And here is said excerpt from the conference:




https://www.eleconomista.com.mx/art...-19-a-medicos-y-enfermeras-20210212-0075.html (In spanish)

Article from Feb 12: 726002 doses of around 766k of Pfizer's vaccine that was received from January had already been applied to medical staff (doctors, nurses, hospital personnel), some teachers in Campeche had already started to receive the shot too.

But, as good mexicans if an international source said so, it must be truth! Fuck the ones under me, I'm most important because I have a bigger paycheck and I can work from home, so I need to have better privileges. Meanwhile, I have to get on a crowded bus to the factory so you can get your fucking phones, consoles and cyber-trash to your fucking online retailer of choice for less than US$4.500 a year.

Also, watch as the same people just drive-by here to never return.


Preach brother, a lot of people aren't interested in facts, or the sociocultural context in which more than half of the country lives in.
 
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