Playing The Last of Us Part II showed me why Souls games shouldn't have an easy mode

[brenobnfm]

Well, this is gonna be really unpopular but it's an honest opinion with no ill or elitism intent. I have been playing The Last of Us Part II for the past week and as usual i always start a new game i'm unfamiliar at the default difficulty setting, which always bothers me when it isn't called "normal" because i want to know what the intended experience is, they went for Moderate in this one.

As game the goes by, doesn't take long to realize that the Moderate setting is too fucking easy, but i still persist for some time before changing it to Hard. Hard felt as the "normal" setting, it was still pretty forgiving with Ellie getting away with a lot of bullshit. Finally, i put in Survival, the hardest option you can change mid game i suppose because i didn't see Grounded on the menu, and for the first time the game started making sense.

What Naughty Dog achieved in terms of writing, voice acting, animations and everything else to make you immersed in this world and story is unprecedented in the media, but the dissonance between the intensity of the narrative and the easier difficulty settings puts everything at risk, how can you buy Ellie's emotions and struggles when she's a superhero who can take bullets, arrows and whatever else? Going full Lara Croft mode in this game ruins its tone and makes it a significantly inferior experience.

At some point i thought Souls games should have an easy mode, but this game made me change my mind, people judge what they play and the developer should not provide an inferior experience because gamers think they want one, and this has nothing to do with accessibility, which i'm all for and TLoU 2 should be applauded for the excepcional effort in this area.

TL;DR: Started the game at the moderate setting which was too easy and ruined the tone of the game.

 

[Bedameister]

Souls games should have an easy mode and I don't know why your experience with TLOU2 should change that.
In fact TLOU2 is the perfect example on how a game handles difficulty settings and it would be perfect if Souls games would have similar options

 

[Gloomz]

Playing it on Survivor and I don't think I've actually had a full clip in any of my guns in my 17 hours so far.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Feels like you're kind of contradicting yourself in a sense here. As the game having options for different difficulties allowed you to have the experience you felt was better. ND very well could've made the game with "normal" mode as the only difficulty mode as an example.

 

[Knight613]

Just because you thought it was too easy on moderate doesn't mean everyone else did.

 

[Fat4all]

souls games sometimes have mechanics that can make things easier or harder, but they are often not explained well or hard to access

i wouldn't mind if there was just an option in a menu instead

 

[KAMI-SAMA]

how can you buy Ellie's emotions and struggles when she's a superhero who can take bullets, arrows and whatever else? Going full Lara Croft mode in this game ruins its tone and makes it a significantly inferior experience.

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Well if you're going by that, how can you have Ellie die even once and have her come back to do it all over again? People have a suspension of disbelief when it comes to gameplay versus what happens in the cutscenes.

I think the reason Souls games got so much recognition is due to its callback to older games that used to be difficult with no safety net from back in the day. People loved the fresh air in a sea of easy games so it now kind of became their thing which I fully welcome. Even if it doesn't cater to every gamer.

Just because you thought it was too easy on moderate doesn't mean everyone else did.

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Oh yeah that too.

 

[oreomunsta]

I get where you're coming from, OP, but I don't think it's a bad thing for Souls games to explore being more accessible

Letting more people play your game is always a win. I think that the way Souls and other games designed around a specific experience can make one difficulty option labeled the recommended difficulty

 

[YukiroCTX]

Difficulty modes are there for people who have way different skill level, what you may deem easy is absolutely not for the vast majority of the population. That's what difficulty levels are for. Demon souls, there is no option whether you find the game easy or whether they find it way to hard. You at least had an option to increase the difficulty in TLOU II, I found TLOU II on easy absolutely harder than Demon Souls. It's really a selfish mindset "it doesn't make sense to me" "game was too easy" when there are options there, because fuck the rest of the people who don't find games easy.

 

[Majora's Mask]

Of all the games you could have picked to make your point you choose the one with the most accessibility options from a AAA dev in recent memory, lol.

There's plenty of people that just want to experience the world/story/lore from a game. If you had the option to tune the game to a difficulty setting that was more in line with your skills, that's great. You had the option. People don't have that with Souls games.

 

[brenobnfm]

Feels like you're kind of contradicting yourself in a sense here. As the game having options for different difficulties allowed you to have the experience you felt was better.

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I disagree, it just took me longer to find what difficulty option matched the intensity of the narrative side, anything from moderate and below doesn't make any justice for this particular game.

 

[DvdGzz]

Yep, Souls should remain a standout. No need to be like every other game out there. The difficulty is the main feature.

 

[Dolce]

If the only difficulty option was normal, it would not be on the level of the hardest in TLOU2. So... having difficulty options gave you the ability to have the experience you wanted.

Yep, Souls should remain a standout. No need to be like every other game out there. The difficulty is the main feature.

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Ninja Gaiden has difficulty options. Souls games will be OK.

 

[j7vikes]

More options not less is the preferred way to go always IMO. Your moderate difficulty experience might be someone else's expert mode. And we have to keep in mind some gamers are dealing with disabilities that may completely keep them from playing certain games if they don't have accessibility features (I would include difficulty settings as accessibility but realize not everyone does).

With setting a harder experience is available and an easier experience is available. And those options are a good thing.

 

[Duxxy3]

Agreed. Naughty Dog should give back that accessibility award they received and remake all of their games for their true hardcore fans. No more continues. One hit kills only. Give us the real experience!

edit: They should also retroactively remove any trophies of the weak sauce pre-patch version of their games.

 

[EggmaniMN]

Oh we're going right back to able bodied people talking for disabled people because of "dev vision" for the 370458th time this year huh.

 

[Eeyore]

You don't deserve to decide for everyone OP.

Also Souls games should have difficulty options, because the more people that have the opportunity to play those games, the more people that will fall in love with them.

 

[DarkChronic]

Still can't believe this is an opinion that pops up. Adding the OPTION detracts nothing. If you don't want an easy mode, DON'T USE IT. You said it yourself - you realized it wasn't for you and changed it into something that works for you.

I'm playing Dark Souls on PC with trainers on right now and I love it. I'm doing a lore playthrough and taking my time and really enjoying the setting, monster/boss designs, etc. It's a blast. Does it ruin the true intention of the game? Of fucking course it does, but that's not why I'm playing it that way right now. Souls games have so much beautiful content and it sucks that some players don't get to see that stuff because of difficulty.

Adding difficulty/accessibility OPTIONS never hurts a game. Never.

 

[ClickyCal']

This is just pure ableism. All games should have options.

 

[Stoze]

Well, this is gonna be really unpopular but it's an honest opinion with no ill or elitism intent. I have been playing The Last of Us Part II for the past week and as usual i always start a new game i'm unfamiliar at the default difficulty setting, which always bothers me when it isn't called "normal" because i want to know what the intended experience is, they went for Moderate in this one.

As game the goes by, doesn't take long to realize that the Moderate setting is too fucking easy, but i still persist for some time before changing it to Hard. Hard felt as the "normal" setting, it was still pretty forgiving with Ellie getting away with a lot of bullshit. Finally, i put in Survival, the hardest option you can change mid game i suppose because i didn't see Grounded on the menu, and for the first time the game started making sense.

What Naughty Dog achieved in terms of writing, voice acting, animations and everything else to make you immersed in this world and story is unprecedented in the media, but the dissonance between the intensity of the narrative and the easier difficulty settings puts everything at risk, how can you buy Ellie's emotions and struggles when she's a superhero who can take bullets, arrows and whatever else? Going full Lara Croft mode in this game ruins its tone and makes it a significantly inferior experience.

At some point i thought Souls games should have an easy mode, but this game made me change my mind, people judge what they play and the developer should not provide an inferior experience because gamers think they want one, and this has nothing to do with accessibility, which i'm all for and TLoU 2 should be applauded for the excepcional effort in this area.

TL;DR: Started the game at the moderate setting which was too easy and ruined the tone of the game.

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So your takeaway from being able to access a higher difficulty mode that fit you better is...there shouldn't be difficulty modes?

 

[kamineko]

if it was so easy, then why did you

Spoiler

let joel die

i don't know what your experience with normal difficulty has to do with another game in an entirely different genre. you can just change the difficulty without dictating what other people do in their video games

 

[MiDoZ]

I see your point OP

Maybe the way we choose the difficulty could be improved? Some games tried to gauge the player skill level and recommended a difficulty sitting accordingly.
Wish more games explored that way. Like even incorporate something like the Resident Evil 4 on top or something.

 

[BadWolf]

Get off your high horse.

Options are good, they make games more accessible for more people.

 

[s y]

I don't know about all that but the difference in experience from Survivor compared to the lower difficulties in Part II is wild. Feels like they balanced and dev'd the game on Survivor difficulty and just dumbed everything down from there for the other modes.

Even hard mode gives you waaaaaaaaaay too much supplies and health. Playing on anything lower than Survivor makes all the scavenging and pseudo exploration in that game tedious but on Survivor, it's a necessary breather and essential to your survival since you end every encounter almost completely depleted of supplies and ammo.

I don't even know if you can appreciate all the improvement to the gameplay if you play on normal. I don't know if I'd like the game all that much if my first playthrough was on normal mode. It's weird.

 

[Dolce]

I just always find it hilarious, as if Souls is some ultra head exception to the rule, when extremely difficult games, many much more punishing than Souls, have had difficulty options for decades. They did not lose their shine or mystique. People still enjoy them. You can credit feed through SHMUPs nowadays and yet that doesn't change the difficulty of them or their status.

From Software doesn't have to add the option. But let's not pretend it's for a reason other than them not wanting to do it. It doesn't make the games special, or magic. You're not special for beating Souls... like millions of other people.

 

[ThatOneGuy831]

Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and doubt that you didn't mean any ill intent or elitism with this post. So Souls Games shouldn't have any difficulty options because you started off with a difficulty that was too easy and then changed it mid way through to a difficulty that matched what you wanted? Hmm, I don't know about you, but that sounds like the entire fucking point of difficulty options. To cater to a wide range of people that are playing or want to play your game.

 

[Kyuuji]

I don't understand why your point is how Souls doesn't need an easy mode instead of how TLOU2 apparently needs a more challenging mode.

 

[J75]

What these types of threads always never think about is that for some of us, even the easy mode feels like a struggle. Playing with a mix of light and moderate settings, I constantly found myself utilizing every element and mechanic in the game offers for survival. Exploring, finding supplies, using stealth and any deviation from this formula meant death for me. I feel this fits well with the "tone" of the game.

Easy mode didn't make my experience easy exactly, it was still a struggle, it just makes it not totally impossible. And I'm so glad that Naughty Dog broke new ground with all of the accessibility features.

 

[Overflow]

I will say that TLOU 2 is really easy on the default/lower difficulty levels, to the point where it detracts from the experience.

 

[Heshinsi]

I don't care to enjoy the game the way you do. Souls game should have a difficulty and accessibility option just like TLOUII. Gate keeping in games is trash.

 

[ClickyCal']

Yep, Souls should remain a standout. No need to be like every other game out there. The difficulty is the main feature.

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Options don't change the game.

 

[4goodmeasure]

This exact thread never goes well.

 

[Penny Royal]

OP must look down on anyone who went through in explorer mode bc they wanted to experience the story.

Clearly the experience would be ruined for them, what with the ease of play that mode offers.

 

[MiDoZ]

I don't know about all that but the difference in experience from Survivor compared to the lower difficulties in Part II is wild. Feels like they balanced and dev'd the game on Survivor difficulty and just dumbed everything down from there for the other modes.

Even hard mode gives you waaaaaaaaaay too much supplies and health. Playing on anything lower than Survivor makes all the scavenging and pseudo exploration in that game tedious but on Survivor, it's a necessary breather and essential to your survival since you end every encounter almost completely depleted of supplies and ammo.

I don't even know if you can appreciate all the improvement to the gameplay if you play on normal lol

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Yeah its almost as its a different game. Issue is it wont be accessible to a lot of people.

 

[Duxxy3]

I will say that TLOU 2 is really easy on the default/lower difficulty levels, to the point where it detracts from the experience.

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For you that may be true. For many, many, people that is the only way for them to play the game.

 

[wbloop]

You at least had an option to increase the difficulty in TLOU II, I found TLOU II on easy absolutely harder than Demon Souls. It's really a selfish mindset "it doesn't make sense to me" "game was too easy" when there are options there, because fuck the rest of the people who don't find games easy.

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I think it also comes down to how proficient someone is at certain genres. I for one thought that Ghost of Tsushima was way too easy on Normal and finished the entire thing on Hard and can solidly finish a Souls game. But I do not have issues with character action/"slasher" type games.

The Last of Us II on the other hand was a difficult game for me even on Normal because I utterly suuuuuck at shooting with a controller. I regularly mis-aimed and paid the price with getting shot down and not getting a chance to return fire again (most enemies make you drop to the ground when they shoot you, making you incapable of returning fire).

So I appreciate difficulty levels in games on the pure fact of genre/control type proficiency. I imagine for many people it's the exact reverse of my situation, namely being good at shooting but having issues with games like GoT or Souls.

 

[Common Knowledge]

Ah, nice casual ableism.

 

[ClickyCal']

This exact thread never goes well.

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For a reason. Ableism isn't tolerated.

 

[Wrapped in Black]

I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't care at all when cutscenes in a game disregard the gameplay between them. Like, yeah, no shit they do. Never understood this "ludonarrative" nonsense.

 

[ThatOneGuy831]

This exact thread never goes well.

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Because gatekeeping bullshit like what OP wrote shouldn't be a thing

 

[brenobnfm]

For everyone saying moderate might be easy for me but not for some people, well i think the point is being missed, the problem is the ludonarrative dissonance it enables regardless if it's easy or if you're dying a lot but it requires Ellie to take a ludicrous amount of lethal shit to happen. I don't give a damn about ludonarrative dissonance in a GTA game, but in this game it's not ok at all.

If the only difficulty option was normal, it would not be on the level of the hardest in TLOU2. So... having difficulty options gave you the ability to have the experience you wanted.

Ninja Gaiden has difficulty options. Souls games will be OK.

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I'd argue even the Ninja Dog mode in Ninja Gaiden is congruent with the game, it's not about having options, it's about compromising the experience.

You don't deserve to decide for everyone OP.

Also Souls games should have difficulty options, because the more people that have the opportunity to play those games, the more people that will fall in love with them.

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I'm not deciding anything, i'm giving an opinion and you're welcome to disagree.

 

[jayu26]

Conversely, The Last of Us Part II is also one of the most accessible AAA game. Even a blind person can play it. Naughty Dog wants everyone to be able to experience the game.

Souls games sacrifice accessibility in favour of giving few an amazing unparalleled experience.

I say that they are equally valid approaches. It all depends on what the design goal is of respective game. However, consider this, you were able to adjust difficulty until TLoU's gameplay clicked with you. Another person who finds Souls games too difficult but wants to experience the narrative doesn't have that option.

 

[s y]

I will say that TLOU 2 is really easy on the default/lower difficulty levels, to the point where it detracts from the experience.

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Yeah its almost as its a different game. Issue is it wont be accessible to a lot of people.

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I was wondering about that. If Naughty Dog disabled difficulty customization for enemy ai and supplies for normal-grounded but kept ALL the accessibility and other difficulty options would it be less accessible?

I feel like having enemy ai and supplies/ammo be at a set level for normal - grounded difficulties, the experience/gameplay loop would be far more consistent across difficulties but less able players would still have all the tools necessary to complete the game.

 

[DvdGzz]

Ninja Gaiden has difficulty options. Souls games will be OK.

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Thankfully it's up to Miyazaki and company so we're good. In Demon's 4-2 I would have reduced the difficulty in a heart beat if I could. Thankfully I had to learn the difficulty puzzle and my triumph was all the sweeter. Those moments are what make true fans. The overall package, is why to me, Souls games are the best gaming experiences ever. In Souls, the combat is what holds the whole experience together. Good atmosphere is the cherry on top. I hope Miyazaki keeps the trend going in Elden Ring.

Another person who finds Souls games too difficult but wants to experience the narrative doesn't have that option.

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Speaking of options, there are thousands of other options as far as 3rd person combat games go. Why can't Miyazaki keep his vision without suffering so much judgement? Why can't Souls fans keep what makes these games dear to us when there are thousands of other options for gamers who want an easier game?

Options don't change the game.

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Yes, they do. When the majority of us would reduce the difficulty because there are sooo many other games to get to, or some other excuse, it would change how we view these games. They would be like every other game out there, another hollow experience like I felt Jedi: Fallen Order was. It was fun, but ultimately forgettable.

Its not an exception. The rule is devs should present the vision they want and you take it or leave it. From is doing exactly that.

Is it wrong for a developer to spend years crafting an certain experience and then not want to undermine it? They're not allowed to have that choice?

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Yes, great answers.

 

[-Le Monde-]

Difficulty options are just better. They don't even have to mess with the ai behavior or aggressiveness, although they can if they want to go the extra mile.

Let's take the Souls series for example. What if players were allowed to lower the damage given by enemies? or what if players could keep all their souls after dying?

That would make the game accessible to so many new players.Heck! It might even make them more money in the long run.

 

[PandemicOdin]

OP literally just made a case for accessibility options lmfao. You had the option to make the game more difficult to get a more realistic and grounded experience of TLoUP2. Guess what, there are millions of other people that played it and loved it at whatever difficulty they chose to play it.

 

[Rosebud]

Great, so I would never be able to experience my GOTG. While you still can just select "Grounded" and that's it.

 

[Unknownlight]

There's an objectively correct solution to this debate. I don't know why we still argue about it.

 

[ClickyCal']

Difficulty options are just better. They don't even have to mess with the ai behavior or aggressiveness, although they can if they want to go the extra mile.

Let's take the Souls series for example. What if players were allowed to lower the damage taken by enemies? or what if players could keep all their souls after dying?

That would make the game accessible to so many new players.Heck! It might even make them more money in the long run.

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It would make them more money and get them more awards and recognition. So many people here say Bloodborne was "robbed". Maybe if way more people could play it, it wouldn't have been.

Give options.

 

[RoKKeR]

Still can't believe this is an opinion that pops up. Adding the OPTION detracts nothing. If you don't want an easy mode, DON'T USE IT. You said it yourself - you realized it wasn't for you and changed it into something that works for you.

I'm playing Dark Souls on PC with trainers on right now and I love it. I'm doing a lore playthrough and taking my time and really enjoying the setting, monster/boss designs, etc. It's a blast. Does it ruin the true intention of the game? Of fucking course it does, but that's not why I'm playing it that way right now. Souls games have so much beautiful content and it sucks that some players don't get to see that stuff because of difficulty.

Adding difficulty/accessibility OPTIONS never hurts a game. Never.

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Yep. It's ridiculous IMO.