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NeoRaider

Member
Feb 7, 2018
7,325
While Microsoft and Nintendo are far from perfect, Sony makes their lives most difficult

After yesterday's industry-wide discussion of the cost of being visible on Sony's PlayStation Store, Kotaku has heard from multiple independent developers and publishers expressing similar frustrations and fury.

There were two main responses to our article yesterday highlighting one independent developer's frustrations with working with Sony to sell games on the PlayStation store. The first was a confusing number of people convinced that this was somehow part of an underground conspiracy to destroy Sony. The second was many indie game developers and publishers getting in touch to say that, yes, wow, Sony are far harder to work with and sell games through than anywhere else.

It's not possible to rationalize with the former group. We had confirmed hard figures on Sony's fees for getting any visibility on the PlayStation's in-built store, so we reported them. The conspiracy, disappointingly, ends there. However, the information about just how much worse it is for indies to work with Sony than Microsoft or Nintendo keeps piling in.

"Oh yeah, so there's Nintendo who supports you," one such response begins. "[Then] Microsoft who supports you and [then] there is Sony who supports its own AAA machine and gives a fuck about everyone else."

"Sony does not understand what indie means," an independent publisher tells me under the condition of anonymity, via Twitter DMs. "Not at all. For them indie is something in the lower million budgets."

"No platform is 'great', but Sony is particularly terrible," says another publisher to me via Discord. "They know it too—they've had a problem for a long time, and they've been telling devs they have a problem for a long time, but they've just never fixed anything, so the problem persists."

The issue isn't simply that Sony charges a minimum of $25,000 to be featured in a visible position on the PlayStation Store—it's that this is, for most indie games, the only way to be visible. Without paying, developers are reporting that games get completely lost, which many have told us is in stark contrast to both Microsoft and Nintendo's stores. While both offer ways to pay for prominence (although we've as yet been unable to confirm exact figures), what we keep being told is that they also offer many other free options too.

"We get people every week saying, 'Saw your game on the [Xbox] dashboard today!!'," a publisher of smaller indie titles tells me. "The Xbox UI feels like a mess, but in reality, it's actually kinda interesting that they just have so many different places and spaces to feature games."

Matthew Wright of WhiteThorn Games published a pie chart showing the percentage of sales across consoles, with Switch making up a good 60 percent, Xbox around 30%, then Steam around 7 percent and PlayStation down at 3 percent.

Cristian Botea of indie developer and publisher Those Awesome Guys did the same, showing a whopping 91.5 percent on Steam, 7.6 percent on Switch, with 0.6 on Xbox and 0.3 percent on PlayStation.

Another publisher who wished to remain anonymous told us some exact sales figures for one small indie release they named but asked us to withhold. The game sold around 20,000 copies on Xbox, compared to just 7,000 on PlayStation. However, when it came to releasing DLC, the Microsoft console saw 2,000 units shift, while, "On Sony, and [this is] not a fucking joke, until today, 7."

More: https://kotaku.com/playstation-is-hard-to-work-with-devs-say-1847210060
 
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Nazgûl

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
3,082
"and [then] there is Sony who supports its own AAA machine and gives a fuck about everyone else."

lmaoo this made me laugh
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,350
we had the thread about this yesterday no ? Kotaku is late lol
This article came from a thread yesterday:


No they had an article yesterday. This is a follow up with new info like:

"Oh yeah, so there's Nintendo who supports you," one such response begins. "[Then] Microsoft who supports you and [then] there is Sony who supports its own AAA machine and gives a fuck about everyone else."
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,299
Seems like an article with more indie dev responses, so it's technically new news.

Will read at lunch.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,968
Makes sense. This is pretty common with market leaders. They use their leverage.

Not defending it, but this is capitalism, baby.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,268
Another publisher who wished to remain anonymous told us some exact sales figures for one small indie release they named but asked us to withhold. The game sold around 20,000 copies on Xbox, compared to just 7,000 on PlayStation. However, when it came to releasing DLC, the Microsoft console saw 2,000 units shift, while, "On Sony, and [this is] not a fucking joke, until today, 7."

Bro...
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
"The first was a confusing number of people convinced that this was somehow part of an underground conspiracy to destroy Sony."

As sad and pathetic as this sounds I've unironically seen this posted all the time, especially this past year. I posted early on in the previous thread that I hoped that people here would be able to handle this mild criticism of Sony more maturely but nope I guess not, didn't take long at all for it to be labelled as part of a (and I quote) "narrative".

It's insane. I don't think corporate bootlicking has ever been so brazen.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,299
Screw it, I'll read it now.

The issue isn't simply that Sony charges a minimum of $25,000 to be featured in a visible position on the PlayStation Store—it's that this is, for most indie games, the only way to be visible. Without paying, developers are reporting that games get completely lost, which many have told us is in stark contrast to both Microsoft and Nintendo's stores. While both offer ways to pay for prominence (although we've as yet been unable to confirm exact figures), what we keep being told is that they also offer many other free options too.

"We get people every week saying, 'Saw your game on the [Xbox] dashboard today!!'," a publisher of smaller indie titles tells me. "The Xbox UI feels like a mess, but in reality, it's actually kinda interesting that they just have so many different places and spaces to feature games."

Meanwhile on Switch we're told, "Without paying for featuring, there are spots on the eShop you will appear without paying. New releases, great deals, all those kinds of lists. And they will put new releases and decent discounts into the Discover tab too."
That's.....really surprising.
 

Guerrilla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,235
Hmm, i hope people make enough noise for this situation to improve. But seeing the downplaying on the first page already I'm not too hopeful :/
 

Babu93

Member
Feb 9, 2021
2,367
Another publisher who wished to remain anonymous told us some exact sales figures for one small indie release they named but asked us to withhold. The game sold around 20,000 copies on Xbox, compared to just 7,000 on PlayStation. However, when it came to releasing DLC, the Microsoft console saw 2,000 units shift, while, "On Sony, and [this is] not a fucking joke, until today, 7."

Oooof.
 

SuperOctopus

Member
Apr 22, 2020
2,642
What's new in the article on top of what was said yesterday;
- The PS store has no way to be featured anywhere without paying so the only way to find most indie games is by typing their name. Nintendo eshop and the MS Store have free spots to be featured.
- It's apparently very difficult to communicate with the Sony teams whereas ID@Xbox team is responsive and is inviting devs to sales and shows.
- The only way to be on sales is apparently to be invited and some devs are struggling to find coherent pricing between storefronts as Sony is suggesting some starting discount prices (that could be further negotiated).
I hope that because all this is surfacing, things will change for the better. It's not something that may be that hard to change if you put money in the right place.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,133
Remember when Sony relied so heavily on indies at the beginning of PS4 lifecycle? It's a shame seeing them throwing small devs under the bus when they are of no use for them anymore.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
How much time have you spent on video game discussion boards in the last 20 years?

Quite a while, but in this specific instance I was still caught by surprise, I mean multiple developers venting their frustrations at a platform holder being accused of attempting to destroy said company? I dunno about you but that was a new one for me yesterday.

But that's only a facet of the reaction to yesterday's article and I don't want to derail the thread from the main topic so I'll leave it there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,088
Can't read the article right now, but did the reporter seek out disconfirming evidence by reaching out to other devs or did they generalize from a couple anecdotes like everyone else did in that other thread?
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,299
"If your store doesn't have a place where players can find new/interesting games," an indie publisher vents to me, "and you have to literally use the search functionality to find a game, then why the fuck is anyone giving [them] 30%?"
Well someone finally said it.
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,239
So the problem is visibility mostly? What's the solution, a "What's New" page on the store that highlights indie games automatically (no work required on indie devs part to be included in this section)?
 

JEH

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,207
Remember when Sony relied so heavily on indies at the beginning of PS4 lifecycle? It's a shame seeing them throwing small devs under the bus when they are of no use for them anymore.


38yapg.jpg
 

RisingStar

Banned
Oct 8, 2019
4,849
I believe it. That store is archaic af. I have no idea how they've been holding it up this long.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
I know this is a meme, but I feel like this may be an actual example of arrogant Sony. Those indies kept the PS4 chugging in the early days, they should do better by them than this.
 

Azerth

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,176
im not expecting sony to change anything unless alot of indie devs start skipping there platform.
 

Deleted member 85465

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 12, 2020
976
The main reason given for these low numbers is not a lack of marketing, with some mentioning thousands spent on targeted ads that performed well for other formats. Instead, based on our conversations with a variety of developers, the numbers seem to reflect just how hard it is to find games on PlayStation if they're not heavily featured, and how incredibly difficult it is to be featured in PlayStation sales.

"If your store doesn't have a place where players can find new/interesting games," an indie publisher vents to me, "and you have to literally use the search functionality to find a game, then why the fuck is anyone giving [them] 30%?"

Its pretty hilarious how fast the justifications some users made badly age, saw a lot mention that indie devs wanted "free marketing" lol.
 

KillaKap

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
753
Imagine if this was an Xbox issue." Whhheeeew child." Im sure with all this press some changes will be made. Make no mistake though, someone getting blackballed.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
Increasing call of duty sales by 1% brings in more revenue than increasing an indie games' sales by 1000%
Yea, I feel like this is under-understood.

The other thing is that gamers want a clean UI without clutter, yet indies want to all/each be featured prominently without cost or investment. The article even says this when they mention the Xbox UI is messy, but hey at least they get featured on there.

And I still don't get the dev argument that being required to put forth screenshots, a trailer and game description is a burden on them
 

Deleted member 93841

User-requested account closure
Banned
Mar 17, 2021
4,580
So the problem is visibility mostly? What's the solution, a "What's New" page on the store that highlights indie games automatically (no work required on indie devs part to be included in this section)?

That would be a great start, not just for developers, but also for customers. For some reason there's a "new games" section on the US Store on the PS5, but not on the German Store. If I want to see which games are new, I either have to check on my US account or do a search using filters on my German account.

It's very odd.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,349
So the problem is visibility mostly? What's the solution, a "What's New" page on the store that highlights indie games automatically (no work required on indie devs part to be included in this section)?

I think a better 'recommended for you' based on wishlisted games/previous purchases/trophies etc on the front page could be a good start.

And yeah, a 'what's new' that also has some kind of filtering based on what it thinks you might actually buy and like.

I guess think how much new music Spotify has uploaded every single day. More than any gaming store does. They do a fucking fantastic job of surfacing stuff to you on the front page that you'd like. They do it like their business depends on it! New Music Friday, Discover Daily playlists, Recommended Radio etc. They have a whole big section of the front page that is called 'Made for you' which is just a bunch of recommendations in different genres that you might like based on your prior listens/likes.

That's the kind of stuff that helps surface stuff on a platform that has an overwhelming amount of new stuff I think.

And this goes for every store, obviously. I think every and any store could do better. But this conversation is obviously about PSN.
 
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