Seriously, what’s the deal with The Pokémon Company/Gamefreak’s amateur design decisions?

[Durden]

This shit just continues to boggle my fucking mind.

-Cloud storage options that change all the time and are just shit in general

-Online options for games that excel in communication that are below mediocre at best

-Just general game design choices that continue to feel amateurish, and misguided

That's just some quick bullet summaries off the top of my head.

The way I justify it, is they put the team to work on the Pokémon themselves. Designs, animations, ect. And to a certain extent, that does make sense. They've had slip ups, but to this day Pokémon designs are pretty damn great still, even with the Pokedex reaching crazy numbers. Which I do think is highly impressive. In fact, I would say Sw/Sh's new Pokémon are some of my favorite in years.

But still. This is THE LARGEST MEDIA FRANCHISE IN THE FUCKING WORLD. The amount of money Pokemon is bringing in is shit that most normal people can't even fucking comprehend. How is this kind of shit still happening? How are they not putting everything into making Pokémon a top of the line experience in every way possible?

I do understand some of this may be tradition stuff. But plenty of other cultural companies have adjusted their mindset and approach. Nintendo in particular for instance. There's still plenty I wish they did better, but at least you know with a game like BotW or Mario Odyssey, they're truly trying to make the absolute best game they can make with any tools they can, using the capital that the IP deserves and kind of demands.

It's also interesting that it's a relatively common trend for another developer than GF to get a hold of the license, and seemingly give it more effort than GF themselves. Projects like Pokémon Unite, Pokken, and New Pokémon Snap demonstrate this.

Please note, I'm not trying to call GF or any other Pokémon devs lazy. And I do understand there may be some things at play here that I don't fully grasp. I'm just legitimately curious on what in the hell is going on over there. Like Pokémon Legends looks cool, sure. But it doesn't look largest-media-franchise-in-the-fucking-world cool to me. This company should theoretically have more assets to work with than ANY OTHER IP IN THE WORLD. What is happening?

 

[Vertpin]

A lot could be said about the two of them. It boggles my mind too.

 

[Xero grimlock]

I think that this is the outcome of a company that hit it huge in the 90s and never had any meaningful competition to force them to change or update anything.

 

[catboy]

game freak is deeply conservative (not in the political way)

that explains literally all of it

 

[StephenNotStrange]

Time restriction.
This is what happens when GF, Nintendo, and Creatures joint to create TPC - a company that deals with all the licenses and merchandise.
Everything needs to revolve around the merchandise, they can't delay a game because tons of merchandise, license products have been scheduled beforehand for months, if not years.

Edit: Only realize now that what I said only explain the situation of lower quality game than other high profile Nintendo game. Not why they made some weird choices.

Besides, the "largest media franchise" is because of the merchandise, and we only know the revenue, not the actual profits.

 

[Lumines]

"Largest media franchise" has quickly become the most obnoxious set of buzzwords regularly mentioned by the fanbase.

 

[Chev]

If you're bringing in top money with lackluster design decisions then there's really no guarantee better decisions would bring more money. Or that they're better decisions, for that matter. Like sure, you think theirs are bad, but you're not the one with (supposedly) the largest media franchise in the world, and it's notable they've outlived or outperformed a lot of competitors in the collectible monster domain.

 

[Serebii]

Pokémon as a media franchise is big. However most is merch and we're talking revenue. TPC's best year financially ever was last year with £170m profit.

Also you can't just throw money at problems and they go away. Time is finite. Resources are finite. If you put too much money in, then the game cannot be profitable and thus isn't viable.

It's also interesting that it's a relatively common trend for another developer than GF to get a hold of the license, and seemingly give it more effort than GF themselves. Projects like Pokémon Unite, Pokken, and New Pokémon Snap demonstrate this.

Click to shrink...

Just because they go a different way to how you'd like doesn't mean they put in "more effort". Stop this, that's a stone's throw away from the lazy dev rhetoric you stated you weren't trying to do

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

This company should theoretically have more assets to work with than ANY OTHER IP IN THE WORLD. What is happening?

Click to shrink...

They do. That's why they are able to make games with hundreds of unique monsters when others count them in the tens, if that.

 

[breander]

It probably wont make any difference in how much they sell in the end so why spend more money.

 

[Serebii]

They do. That's why they are able to make games with hundreds of unique monsters when others count them in the tens, if that.

Click to shrink...

Yep. I like using this comparison

Here's all the non-human models for Breath of the Wild with variants for elements etc.

Here's the same for Mario Odyssey

Now here's Pokémon

1374 models. If you lop off the ones like Alcremie, Sivally, Type: Null etc. and you're at around 1100 and that's being lenient. These each have over a dozen animations each with unique skeletons etc. so that's around 13000 animations

Every new feature with 5 animations would require 5500 animations just for the Pokémon. It's insanity

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I'd say to improve in any meaningful way you think they should in the time they spend on these games you'd have to cut down the amount of pokemon, and you know how people felt about that.

 

[TsuWave]

develop games as if it's still the 90s, brehs

 

[Serebii]

Basically, the thing I see a lot is people are upset that Pokémon hasn't grown up with them. I've even seen big youtubers say they're grumpy about that lately.

 

[m4st4]

What's the deal?

People constantly applaud them with tons of money, constantly support them and they don't have to further invest in their programers, artists, designers... They get a pat on the back and a well done and think it's enough, with miscroscopic progression from title to title. It is what it is... until there's some sort of online uprise (see: current Halo threads) or just a major drop in sales. Which will never happen cause... POKEMON. Essentially kids games. Played by grownups.

Personally, I won't but the next two big Pokemon games, Sword/Shield were just amateur hour compared to 90% of rpgs out there these days. I was, quite literally and for the first time in my life, too old for their shit.

 

[Liam Allen-Miller]

This is the cost of having to never go two years without shipping a game. I really don't think there's much more to it than that. These two-three year dev cycles will always make aspects of their games seriously pale in comparison to stuff that gets the time. Until TPC is willing to give a team time to make it right they're always going to be coming out compromised in some way(s).

Having to support 900 pokemon surely isn't helping things either :///

-Cloud storage options that change all the time and are just shit in general

Click to shrink...

Forgive me if I'm out of the loop, but they only changed it once, right? Were there three storage systems?

 

[Zalman]

What's the deal? The deal is that tens of millions of people continue to play these games because they enjoy the gameplay loop of Pokémon after all these years. What you and others here think account for an incredibly small percentage.

 

[Cokomon]

I think that this is the outcome of a company that hit it huge in the 90s and never had any meaningful competition to force them to change or update anything.

Click to shrink...

Coupled with the sudden realization that they have to make 3D games now, and having no idea how to do it.

 

[PKrockin]

The quality of the game isn't a priority for Gamefreak or TPC. Giving the games the time they need isn't as important as rushing them out the door quickly, because they know they will sell like hotcakes anyway. They could allocate more time for the mainline games, and plan the rest of the media with that in mind, but they don't view it as necessary.

 

[Yuntu]

They are just simply super conservative. And I honestly enjoy that about Pokemon.

I want online to be like in Gen 6 again though, and more dungeons/caves.

The quality of the game isn't a priority for Gamefreak or TPC. Giving the games the time they need isn't as important as rushing them out the door quickly, because they know they will sell like hotcakes anyway. They could allocate more time for the mainline games, and plan the rest of the media with that in mind, but they don't view it as necessary.

Click to shrink...

That's some lazy dev rhetoric right there tbh. GF not being able to keep up with their usual schedule on 3D is one thing, but saying they don't care about it is another.

 

[Dyle]

It's 99% time constraints because everything has to be ready to go together. The games suffer from the fact that the game needs to be out so the anime and merch make sense. The games are just part of the overall franchise, their quality isn't the number one priority, if you aren't getting something out of the whole machine and are only focused on the main games then you're going to feel the downsides of that strategy much more acutely

 

[Randam]

Yep. I like using this comparison

Here's all the non-human models for Breath of the Wild with variants for elements etc.

Spoiler

Here's the same for Mario Odyssey

Spoiler

Now here's Pokémon

1374 models. If you lop off the ones like Alcremie, Sivally, Type: Null etc. and you're at around 1100 and that's being lenient. These each have over a dozen animations each with unique skeletons etc. so that's around 13000 animations

Spoiler

Every new feature with 5 animations would require 5500 animations just for the Pokémon. It's insanity

Click to shrink...

how many does something like WoW, or FF 14 have?

 

[Melpomene]

Yep. I like using this comparison

Here's all the non-human models for Breath of the Wild with variants for elements etc.

Here's the same for Mario Odyssey

Now here's Pokémon

1374 models. If you lop off the ones like Alcremie, Sivally, Type: Null etc. and you're at around 1100 and that's being lenient. These each have over a dozen animations each with unique skeletons etc. so that's around 13000 animations

Every new feature with 5 animations would require 5500 animations just for the Pokémon. It's insanity

Click to shrink...

This is why I feel like people should learn to be okay with each Pokemon game having a limited number available, honestly. I don't need all ten billion Pokemon available in every single game if their mere presence is going to have the devs making compromises elsewhere. Just give me a Dex of a reasonable size, make the game a self-contained experience, and improve in other places.

I mean, people are just gonna say "that didn't help with Sword and Shield, though!" and I feel like all I have to say - and all I need to say - to that is "maybe give it more than one chance before insisting nothing makes any difference?"

 

[Roliq]

"Largest media franchise" has quickly become the most obnoxious set of buzzwords regularly mentioned by the fanbase.

Click to shrink...

I think something that is so dumb is that people forget that Merchandise is the biggest contributor, using Wikipedia ( i know not the best thing) merchandise revenue is like 4 times bigger than the games (even now it hard to see which amount is from mainline games since Unite and PGO are counted there)

 

[Durden]

Just because they go a different way to how you'd like doesn't mean they put in "more effort". Stop this, that's a stone's throw away from the lazy dev rhetoric you stated you weren't trying to do

Click to shrink...

Don't agree with this. Understanding why different developers tap into different strengths of Pokémon is not inherently calling GF/TPC lazy. It's continuing to try and understand why GF/TPC struggle in areas that those devs might not. The point of this thread is trying to solve the mystery of GF/TPC's design choices, and that's a clue to go off of.

 

[Deleted member 5129]

Lemme quote part of my post from the other thread, which ended up making a lot of Gamefreak fanboys really hostile - but it's still the truth.

It's not fanfiction, it's the truth. You're free to believe what you want, but you can ask pretty much any game developer that has ever worked for a small traditional studio and they'll tell you the same thing. This stuff is extremely common in the games industry.

This industry moves so fast, if you're not keeping up and learning new things all the time you fall behind. And if you've worked at a company for 20+ years you have very little incentive to keep up with the learning, and then you end up getting these old folks at the top that are - yes - actually out of touch with modern game developement.

Again, no clue if this is what is happening here but it's definitely extremely likely. No one sets out to make an underwhelming looking game, but it's usually what the sort of arrogance of "I'm right I've been here for 20 years, and the people under me are not" leads to that a lot of people in leadership positions seemingly have.

As an example, Piranha Bytes. They make some fairly established european RPGs, dunno if you've heard of them. Their games are always fun and good but also extremely ugly and outdated. I know a few people that actually left the company because they were fed up with the people at the top acting in exactly the way I was describing. To the point where they'd not even let the people touch some of the old engine code 'cause it's "sacred" because they "wrote it themselves" like 20 years ago.

Click to shrink...

The post is more about the graphics than anything, but it can be applied to the overall game design too. Gamefreaks management is most likely out of touch with modern game developement. They have had no reason to keep up with technical innovation, design innovation etc. due to the extreme success of their games.. so now we're in the position where they're simply out of touch. There's plenty of young talent there, but obviously they can't override the stupid decisions the management forces upon them.

If they greenlit a Pokemon spearheaded by the young devs there - that learned modern game design, modern software engineering etc. as part of their education, we'd probably get a lot better of a product.

 

[boris_feinbrand]

Yep. I like using this comparison

Here's all the non-human models for Breath of the Wild with variants for elements etc.

Here's the same for Mario Odyssey

Now here's Pokémon

1374 models. If you lop off the ones like Alcremie, Sivally, Type: Null etc. and you're at around 1100 and that's being lenient. These each have over a dozen animations each with unique skeletons etc. so that's around 13000 animations

Every new feature with 5 animations would require 5500 animations just for the Pokémon. It's insanity

Click to shrink...

Yeah people really really really underestimate the insane amount of work this number of creatures is causing.
It's similar to Gran Turismo keeping old gen models and interiors around for as long as they did. Even with outsourcing there are limits to what's possible.

If it were me, I'd cut at least half of them out, but with franchises like this, that's not really an option. At best they could stop adding new Monsters for a few years or introduce way less new ones in each installment.

 

[Yuntu]

I think something that is so dumb is that people forget that Merchandise is the biggest contributor, using Wikipedia ( i know not the best thing) merchandise revenue is like 6 times bigger than the games

Click to shrink...

Yeah the games are a small part of the big money. They still make a lot of money but it's not like they have endless big budgets or endless amounts of time to produce them. They probably wish they had the luxury of a Rockstar and being able to take 6-7 years per game.

 

[StephenNotStrange]

This is why I feel like people should learn to be okay with each Pokemon game having a limited number available, honestly. I don't need all ten billion Pokemon available in every single game if their mere presence is going to have the devs making compromises elsewhere. Just give me a Dex of a reasonable size, make the game a self-contained experience, and improve in other places.

I mean, people are just gonna say "that didn't help with Sword and Shield, though!" and I feel like all I have to say - and all I need to say - to that is "maybe give it more than one chance before insisting nothing makes any difference?"

Click to shrink...

And based on Legend Arceus's recent trailer, we can already see those Pokemon has more animation than before.

 

[Pokemaniac]

There are a few specific issues, like recent leaks suggesting PSS was overly hard on the servers and Game Freak deciding to throw it out instead of fixing it (and that sort of response seemingly frustratingly common in their history), but overall it mostly comes down to a couple main factors:

• Game Freak has always been a little bit lacking on the technical side
• Their workload is kind of absurd for a studio of their size. They desperately need to either get bigger and/or slow down, and thankfully there are some early signs they may at least be doing the latter.

 

[Serebii]

This is why I feel like people should learn to be okay with each Pokemon game having a limited number available, honestly. I don't need all ten billion Pokemon available in every single game if their mere presence is going to have the devs making compromises elsewhere. Just give me a Dex of a reasonable size, make the game a self-contained experience, and improve in other places.

I mean, people are just gonna say "that didn't help with Sword and Shield, though!" and I feel like all I have to say - and all I need to say - to that is "maybe give it more than one chance before insisting nothing makes any difference?"

Click to shrink...

100%

SWSH didn't have it planned for the original gameplan, but going forward we may see the benefits for it

Heck we've seen it in Legends. Legends has new models for the Pokémon and a ton of new animations

how many does something like WoW, or FF 14 have?

Click to shrink...

From quick glance, FF 14 has 411

Dragon Quest XI has ~600 but that's shored up by duplicates of different elements, plus Malicious & Vicious variants. This is the common thing companies do to shore the numbers up. Pokémon doesn't do that

Lemme quote part of my post from the other thread, which ended up making a lot of Gamefreak fanboys really hostile - but it's still the truth.



Gamefreaks management is out of touch with modern game developement. If they greenlit a Pokemon spearheaded by the young talent there, we'd probably get a lot better of a product.

Click to shrink...

A lot of the higher ups more and more have been up and comers, same with directors of the games.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

Why are people being disingenuous with the Pokemon models argument?

1) We had a culled dex in Sw/Sh and that still resulted in region design with hallway corridor route designs, and textures/assets that frankly looked very disappointing for the hardware that they were in. Culling the dex number has nothing to do with the final region design.

2) You guys do realize that the team is capable of working on more than 1 thing concurrently? It was reported that Creatures was working on the Pokemon models, while GF was doing other elements of Sw/Sh.

If anything, the real problem is that a developer team that lacked HD experience (since they only worked on handheld hardware with small game releases on PS1, PS4, and PC), suddenly had to work with HD assets without time on their side. That and the direction of the Pokemon series.

 

[Mobu]

SMTV and MH Stories 2 have convinced me.

They need to cut down the number of pokemons, its affecting the whole game.

 

[Alvis]

This is why I feel like people should learn to be okay with each Pokemon game having a limited number available, honestly. I don't need all ten billion Pokemon available in every single game if their mere presence is going to have the devs making compromises elsewhere.

Click to shrink...

but sword shield cut a shitload of pokémon and it still very much had compromises lol

SMTV and MH Stories 2 have convinced me.

They need to cut down the number of pokemons, its affecting the whole game.

Click to shrink...

but they already did lmao

 

[AquaWateria]

At this point expecting Pokémon games from Game Freak to be high quality will cause disappointment. The games will feel half steps and expecting anything beyond that won't do you any good. They always take one step forward and two steps back.

People telling others why support it well I'll tell you it isn't as easy as that. Being a fan who has loved Pokémon for a long time and having great memories it can be hard to throw away something like that. It isn't as easy as dropping the entire franchise. People will keep on supporting Pokémon as long as they have their favorite monsters.

It's sad to see Pokémon can't get the big glow that a lot of Jrpgs are getting these days tho.

 

[Yuntu]

Lemme quote part of my post from the other thread, which ended up making a lot of Gamefreak fanboys really hostile - but it's still the truth.



Gamefreaks management is out of touch with modern game developement. They have had no reason to keep up with technical innovation, design innovation etc. due to the extreme success of their games.. so now we're in the position where they're simply out of touch. There's plenty of young talent there, but obviously they can't override the stupid decisions the management forces upon them.

If they greenlit a Pokemon spearheaded by the young talent there, we'd probably get a lot better of a product.

Click to shrink...

I actually agree with this to an extend. And I think there are a couple of companies like this.

 

[Deleted member 5129]

A lot of the higher ups more and more have been up and comers, same with directors of the games.

Click to shrink...

Looking at the credits of the last few Pokemon games, and comparing them to older ones - it did not look like that to me. A looooot of very old names are still in leadership positions.

 

[Serebii]

Why are people being disingenuous with the Pokemon models argument?

1) We had a culled dex in Sw/Sh and that still resulted in region design with hallway corridor route designs, and textures/assets that frankly looked very disappointing for the hardware that they were in. Culling the dex number has nothing to do with the final region design.

Click to shrink...

Because it wasn't the plan. Going forward we'll see benefits

2) You guys do realize that the team is capable of working on more than 1 thing concurrently? It was reported that Creatures was working on the Pokemon models, while GF was doing other elements of Sw/Sh.

Click to shrink...

Creatures, specifically Pokémon CG Studio, do create them yes. They don't implement them, however

 

[MatrixMan.exe]

The reality is that not enough people care for this kind of thing to affect Pokémon Company's bottom line.

The franchise is run like a tight ship and it's clear that the key focus within whole operation is to at least maintain the core of Pokémon while sustaining their aggressive game and listened product release schedule and high profit margins.

There are a lot of elements that feel half-baked as a result, but the majority are okay with it because the core of catching and battling new Pokémon still remains strong. It's the only reason I keep playing and I'm almost certain it's why most other people do despite the glaring issues the games have had over recent years.

It's disappointing, no doubt, and it's not as if Game Freak couldn't and shouldn't be doing better in some areas either. But that's where we're at. I just hope they can continue to improve whilst iterating and maintaining what makes the franchise so loveable.

 

[Deleted member 8901]

Stop buying their games then. Oh wait, you won't.

 

[Maple]

Basically, the thing I see a lot is people are upset that Pokémon hasn't grown up with them. I've even seen big youtubers say they're grumpy about that lately.

Click to shrink...

I think it's a fair point. All the kids in the 90s and early 2000s that grew up with Pokemon are now adults. And many are still playing. The people enjoying the franchise now comprise a far broader age range than 20 years ago when it was mostly just kids.

I think TPC needs to recognize that and adapt accordingly. Yet many aspects of their game design would seem to indicate that GF thinks their audience is exclusively made up of 4 year olds.

 

[Serebii]

Looking at the credits of the last few Pokemon games, and comparing them to older ones - it did not look like that to me. A looooot of very old names are still in leadership positions.

Click to shrink...

Hiroyuki Tani directed the SWSH Expansion Pass. He joined in 2014
Kazumasa Iwao directed USUM. He joined in 2010

While there are higher higher ups, you're overstating the problem.

 

[Dwebble]

Pokémon became ThE BiGgEsT FrAnChIsE In ThE WoRlD because of Game Freak's design philosophies, and their careful iteration on them, rather than bloating out their budgets.

 

[The Adder]

Every new feature with 5 animations would require 5500 animations just for the Pokémon. It's insanity

Click to shrink...

Should have stayed sprites.

And I've been saying that since before SuMo.

I'd rather have every Pokemon and every move (actual game pieces) in every game than 3D models.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

oh my god it's not the largest media franchise in the world, that stupid wiki article lol

 

[Serebii]

I think it's a fair point. All the kids in the 90s and early 2000s that grew up with Pokemon are now adults. And many are still playing. The people enjoying the franchise now comprise a far broader age range than 20 years ago when it was mostly just kids.

I think TPC needs to recognize that and adapt accordingly. Yet many aspects of their game design would seem to indicate that GF thinks their audience is exclusively made up of 4 year olds.

Click to shrink...

They do adapt, and they listen to feedback. However, just because they don't ONLY do that

Should have stayed sprites.

And I've been saying that since before SuMo.

Click to shrink...

Problem is that the younger audience don't really engage with 2D stuff anymore. It's why Disney don't do 2D animated movies anymore

 

[Deleted member 5129]

Hiroyuki Tani directed the SWSH Expansion Pass. He joined in 2014
Kazumasa Iwao directed USUM. He joined in 2010

While there are higher higher ups, you're overstating the problem.

Click to shrink...

There's a lot more to leadership than the game director. I'm talking technical leads, art leads, etc. - they have a lot bigger of an impact on the actual finished product than the game director themselves.

 

[Serebii]

At this point expecting Pokémon games from Game Freak to be high quality will cause disappointment. The games will feel half steps and expecting anything beyond that won't do you any good. They always take one step forward and two steps back.

People telling others why support it well I'll tell you it isn't as easy as that. Being a fan who has loved Pokémon for a long time and having great memories it can be hard to throw away something like that. It isn't as easy as dropping the entire franchise. People will keep on supporting Pokémon as long as they have their favorite monsters.

It's sad to see Pokémon can't get the big glow that a lot of Jrpgs are getting these days tho.

Click to shrink...

People enjoy Pokémon because of the gameplay.

Video games are about gameplay.

 

[Kinthey]

Lemme quote part of my post from the other thread, which ended up making a lot of Gamefreak fanboys really hostile - but it's still the truth.



The post is more about the graphics than anything, but it can be applied to the overall game design too. Gamefreaks management is most likely out of touch with modern game developement. They have had no reason to keep up with technical innovation, design innovation etc. due to the extreme success of their games.. so now we're in the position where they're simply out of touch. There's plenty of young talent there, but obviously they can't override the stupid decisions the management forces upon them.

If they greenlit a Pokemon spearheaded by the young devs there - that learned modern game design, modern software engineering etc. as part of their education, we'd probably get a lot better of a product.

Click to shrink...

That's actually a nice insight into Piranha Bytes. I like their games but it's also pretty obvious that they're very strict about sticking to certain traditions as they keep following the same concept again and again.

 

[Serebii]

There's a lot more to leadership than the game director. I'm talking technical leads, art leads, etc. - they have a lot bigger of an impact on the actual finished product than the game director themselves.

Click to shrink...

Art director for Sword & Shield was James Turner. He has been in since 2009. Ken Sugimori has taken a big backseat role lately.

That's actually a nice insight into Piranha Bytes. I like their games but it's also pretty obvious that they're very strict about sticking to certain traditions as they keep following the same concept again and again.

Click to shrink...

You realise the game they revealed that people are bitching about, solely because of visuals, is a massive departure than what came before, right?