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Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Okay Era, let me preface this by saying it is a thread I really didn't want to make, started to make it a few weeks earlier but stopped. However, I think it is really important to stop the way things are going.

Please, read the OP before posting. It is not a thread about a tree, a tower or Pokedex, thanks. So, there are right now several issues :


The Game Freak is lazy rhetoric :

That's the classic narrative around Game Freak : whatever their games lack, it is because they were too lazy to implement it.

During the last couple of years, numerous people have raised awareness around crunch and how hard game development can be. Game Freak is no exception, and sometimes their passion for the franchise they created is pushing them even further. Masuda, which directed several games, was hospitalized by the workload he took on Gen 3 in order to "save Pokemon" :



Last year, he was also working during Golden Week (holidays).

Still people are calling them lazy. They are factually not, whether you think that the games are not meaty/beautiful/balanced/revolutionnary enough, it is beside the point.

Furthermore, let's quote Resetera's General Guide :

ad hominem should be avoided and can get you banned depending on the situation. This policy extends to game developers as well. While it may be frustrating that a game did not meet your expectations, it is not constructive to attack developers in personal terms or claim that they are lazy. This kind of vitriol is not only disrespectful but has a negative effect on discussion.

Currently, the situation is not moderated. You can go on the Search bar and you'll see that people calling GF lazy are getting a pass. By not moderating this, ERA is in a way complicit of the situation. It is even worse given the second issue I'll mention :

Ad-hominem attacks

When people are going against the way of thinking of this vocal part of the fanbase, they are well, getting harassed. Why you say so ?

For liking the games, of course !




Joe Merrick, founder of the biggest Pokemon site, also has been harassed, not because he didn't agree with the issue but because he was not outraged enough (?) and still tried to give some context to the discussion :



Another exemple.

Needless to say, social media has proven how lethal it can be. This thread is a call for a responsible behavior.

Oh and
you know at who people are targetting their attacks the most ? Masuda, they guy that went to the hospital because he took people's expectations very personally. It almost feels like a celebration :

Social media is absolutely trashing Pokémon and Masuda for not including all Pokémon in Sword and Shield :

GREAT WORK !


Okay so the thread is already long enough and I am worried people won't read if it gets too long. I could go on and on about how people are using fake news to make their points or how that they attacked reviewers for reviewing well the Let's Go games etc. This thread is not about shielding Game Freak against criticism, of course they are aspects that should be improved, but it can be done without harrasing people !


Reading the thread again is make me angrier every time. The Pokemon community, ERA, we need to be better than this because right now it is a total embrassement.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Asking the studio with the best selling IP in the medium (and beyond) to keep up with the times is not toxic. It's beyond fair.
 
May 9, 2018
3,600
The literature behind the realities/tradeoffs of game development and the software development lifecycle is still lacking, which has continued to lead to a lot of misinformed criticism. (it's improving though, e.g. more discussion about crunch)
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
I don't hate Gamefreak. Pokemon Platinum is still one of my favorite games of all time. I just wished they were a little bit more... lol well anyway Im still downloading Shield day one
The thread is not really about Game Freak's output, but more about how irresponsible and toxic the behaviour of some has been.

It is a franchise with a lot of passion around it, but it doesn't excuse harassing people online among other things.
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
Asking the studio with the best selling IP in the medium (and beyond) to keep up with the times is not toxic. It's beyond fair.

Congrats for the very stupid post illustrating exactly what OP was pointing at.

The Pokémon fandom proved since E3 that it was one of the most toxic and shameful gaming community. I can't believe there are so many manchildren and other different kind of idiots going as far as harassing GF employees (because yes, spamming people's personal twitter is the very definition of harassment) because of a fucking stupid video game. If we were talking about something that really matters, like a controversy about discriminatory content like we see a lot lately, then at least the intent would be understandable. But here it's just babies whining that the next video game that they'll still buy anyway doesn't have all the features they want.
 

MrChocolate

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,411
I'll just say that working tirelessly != efficient/good worker. Because some of you still miss the point regarding that.
 

Deleted member 31092

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
10,783
Pokémon has millions of fans. Even if only 0.1% of the community was somewhat toxic that is still a HUGE amount of people.

And not to mention the absolutely tone deaf "response" they gave last week that put fuel on the fire.



Also #BringBackTheNationalDex, now and forever.
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
The literature behind the realities/tradeoffs of game development and the software development lifecycle is still lacking, which has continued to lead to a lot of misinformed criticism. (it's improving though, e.g. more discussion about crunch)
It is true but it also frustrating to see things go in the good path overall and backward regarding GF and Pokemon in general.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,959
Spain
Bad people are bad, news at seven. Pretty sure most of us here already either ignore or report crude comments. Can't do anything else about it because this is nothing new.

I must have missed this kind of thread when basically any other badly promoted game gets trashed online.
 

kaisere

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,283
This thread is not about shielding Game Freak against criticism, of course they are aspects that should be improved, but it can be done without harrasing people !

Except it kind of is though, because on the opposite side of what you're talking about with this post are some of those same people being harassed are situations like this where people are being told to that if they don't like it "find something they do"

Well guess what? I fucking like Pokemon, but does my opinion not matter because I strongly dislike the direction the franchise is being taken? If you read some of the posts around here it sure seems like that is what some of those people think.

Also, what are we talking about in terms of harassment by the way? Toxicity on twitter/online comments or is it more than that? (genuine question)
 

mothball

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
95
User Banned (1 Day): 'Lazy-Dev' rhetoric, trolling.
Okay, I'll call them "short-sighted buffoons sitting on their laurels because they know they don't need to innovate or expend great effort for their fans to lap up what they put out" instead of "lazy". Problem solved?
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
Yes, because a few bad apples make up the entire group criticizing pokemon. Totally.


You have to be kidding me.
 

Mediking

Final Fantasy Best Boy (Grip)
Member
The thread is not really about Game Freak's output, but more about how irresponsible and toxic the behaviour of some has been.

It is a franchise with a lot of passion around it, but it doesn't excuse harassing people online among other things.

Just remember that the Internet is a very vocal minority lol The Pokemon fans can scream and wage war online but are peaceful in real life lol
 

JakeNoseIt

Catch My Drift
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
4,534
Harassment is bad and we should all stand up to internet bullies, but I find what you are pointing out to be true of most extremely large entertainment properties, right? I also think defenders of GF often throw harassers and those criticizing the games into the same bucket semi-frequently. You are obviously not doing that, but there are irrational defenders of the company just as there are irrational attacks on it.

With as many issues as the gaming community has, it's hard for me to put "how the public is treating the extremely wealthy corporation," at the top of my list. There are a lot of people abused and mistreated across this industry, and I think gamers in particular have a toxicity problem, as do the hardcore fans of a lot of entertainment properties seem to have.

If anything, this topic is more of a symptom of that, rather than something specific to Pokemon and GF, right? Is there a question as to why Pokemon specifically seems to draw a kind of hateful and toxic rhetoric? Well, I think the answer there is just that it is a very large brand and the people who grew up with the original games are now very-online adults.


Asking the studio with the best selling IP in the medium (and beyond) to keep up with the times is not toxic. It's beyond fair.

Yeah, comments like these are weird because like, you know how toxic parts of this industry are, right?
 

Bitanator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,038
I'm probably in the minority but I don't mind the limited pokemon, I always struggle to field a team of new pokemon I just go with my favorites from previous gens and have next to no new ones, that is why I loved Pokemon Black/White so much.

Now, I understand the frustration and I would hope they realize the outrage and add something after you beat the game you can catch/transfer all the old mons to the new gen, I wish they would add this in an update.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
There has been enough toxicity in general, even if much of the healthy criticism is well-warranted.

That said, the only toxic Pokemon rhetoric should be in regards to the best "Team Poison".
babef0fddbb006a246018c393bdc933dda9756b4_00.jpg
 

Zemst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,093
Reminds me of the time someone here made a thread about how wonderful anthem was when it was getting torn to pieces by everyone. Toxic has the power to become a shutdown word and this thread feels like one. I'm a casual Pokémon fan but this is a situation that has been bubbling for a long time and it seems this was the tipping point. Also I don't expect someone who's livelihood depends on a franchise to bad talk or criticize the creators in an event he gets blacklisted.
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Pokémon has millions of fans.

Even if only 0.1% of the community was somewhat toxic that is still a HUGE amount of people.





Also #BringBackTheNationalDex

Now and forever

Funny from someone who created a thread celebrating Masuda getting trashed on the internet.

Except it kind of is though, because on the opposite side of what you're talking about with this post are some of those same people being harassed are situations like this where people are being told to that if they don't like it "find something they do"

Well guess what? I fucking like Pokemon, but does my opinion not matter because I strongly dislike the direction the franchise is being taken? If you read some of the posts around here it sure seems like that is what some of those people think.

Also, what are we talking about in terms of harassment by the way? Toxicity on twitter/online comments or is it more than that? (genuine question)

I never said that your opinion shouldn't be heard (unless you intend to call the devs lazy, or Masuda a hack fraud). It is welcomed if it is voiced respectfully.

We are talking about ad-hominem attacks mostly. Basically calling a game"awful" is okay, saying that the person is "awful" is not.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,963
Report the respective people on twitter and Era. What else is there to say, really? Criticism of GF is perfectly fine, obviously and the large majority of Era members does not agree with any actual harassment towards GF, Masuda and co. The very few who do and are dumb enough to say so get their bans.

Lazy-Dev rhetoric is one thing, but I feel in the right to call GF apathetic and unambitious. I bet Masuda and co. do work a lot. That doesn't mean that I think that e.g. Masuda is a great game designer or has generally commendable views on his vision of GF and the Pkm titles.

The obvious insinuation from threads like these, which there were a few now for this Pkm backlash, seems often to be that even the completely valid criticism may be too much or does condone the behavior of harassers, which it clearly does not.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
social media was a mistake. People really need to learn that sitting on a PC or a phone doesn't give them the right to harrast people. If you don't like the game, that's fair, but stop thinking devs owe you anything.
 

Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
I see many people here showing their disagreement with pokexit in a respectful way. Lets not generalize. Because the real argument is not that they are lazy, its that they have made wrong choices.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,773
Detroit, MI
"Just import the whole Pokedex FiveHead"

People think doing something like that is as easy as hitting a button
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Okay, I'll call them "short-sighted buffoons sitting on their laurels because they know they don't need to innovate or expend great effort for their fans to lap up what they put out" instead of "lazy". Problem solved?

Still not right. Don't attack people personally, please.
Just remember that the Internet is a very vocal minority lol The Pokemon fans can scream and wage war online but are peaceful in real life lol
It is true, but sometimes it can have grave consequences in real life too (see Etika)
 

Squid Bunny

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 11, 2018
5,339
I 100% agree with this. As someone that simply loves Pokemon more than any other franchise, I can't believe people can reach these levels of toxicity surrounding the next installment. I'm not saying Game Freak can serve any turd and we should be thankful, but there are ways to be critical without being an asshole.

I honestly can't believe people attack Joe too, dude has been dedicating himself to Pokémon and contributing to the fandom for most of his life.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Trees fiasco and animation fiasco and let's go bullshit negativity has really soured me on the community.

It's super toxic and you see people say the vilest stuff over this game

We're not even talking about a game that is broken. It's people getting upset about a game because it doesn't align 100% with their concept of a game.
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Reminds me of the time someone here made a thread about how wonderful anthem was when it was getting torn to pieces by everyone. Toxic has the power to become a shutdown word and this thread feels like one. I'm a casual Pokémon fan but this is a situation that has been bubbling for a long time and it seems this was the tipping point. Also I don't expect someone who's livelihood depends on a franchise to bad talk or criticize the creators in an event he gets blacklisted.
It is because it has been building up that it needs to stop. It is not a one-off event, but several ones in the last few years.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
Certain parts of the Pokemon fanbase are so toxic that they even made up an insult for people who like Pokemon Red/Blue too much. Like, what? Does any other series have this?
 

dreamlongdead

Member
Nov 5, 2017
2,636
Yeah, people take it too far based on those examples in the OP.

Still, you can't deny that the people behind this franchise are making absolutely baffling decisions as of late. Some of these decisions are legitimately alienating toward long-time fans, and these fans will continue to be loud without personally attacking others.

Game Freak regained my goodwill with Sun and Moon, but I certainly know they can do much better.

Sword/Shield will be the first real Pokémon game since Sun/Moon for me and many others, because Let's Go was not what I wanted at all. I didn't waste my time and energy lambasting that game, so I'm going into Shield with a positive attitude and cautious optimism.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
Hopefully thread never closes because I feel like I've been seeing it for awhile too. Needs to be known more
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,546
It really is impossible to criticize this series here without someone calling you toxic, isn't it?
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,371
"Just import the whole Pokedex FiveHead"

People think doing something like that is as easy as hitting a button

"Why the fuck is this game so unbalanced"

You'll never win. Do what you want and leave the people who will be mealymouthed about a thing they supposedly like to do what they will, which in the end is still buy your game.

It really is impossible to criticize this series here without someone calling you toxic, isn't it?

Do you think it's possible to criticize the game without directly attacking the devs?
 

9-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,866
Ugh, my most hated sentence from the whole video gaming community: "Because the devs are so lazy." I always picture people who think so as bunch of teenagers who never worked in their lives.

This toxic culture is not limited to Pokémon fans though, the whole Nintendo community is like this. People just can'T tell the diffrence current modern HD generation and what we had during DS.They literally complained devs about the "lackluster H1 schedule of Switch". Yes, they wanted a constant flow of first party games non-stop. Quality ones, nonetheless. Userbase of other platforms are perfectly ok with first party lineup of those consoles being 3-4 games per year but Nintendo fans expect Nintendo, who have always been publicly against labor abuse and crunch culture to "kill it". It's like, they're supportive of crunch culture and don't care what's the sacrifice of getting the games and content they desire quickly.

Fans need to realize that the times and the industry is constantly changing and it will never be what it once has been before.
Yes, rushed games will lack content they used to have.
Yes, there will be lots of delays and game development will take much longer than it used to.
Yes, there will be much less new games compared to previous gens.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,873
It's no more toxic than any other modern fandom. The anonymity of the internet has emboldened and amplified this kind of behavior and appeals to morals won't have a meaningful effect unless the ways that users perceive and interact with others is fundamentally changed. The only time fandoms operate without toxicity is when they are small enough that the toxic sections can be easily ignored.

That being said the rollout of this news has been absolutely horrific and it all could have been avoided with better communication which is on Gamefreak and Nintendo. If they had done anything significant to reduce hype ahead of time or soften the blow afterward things would not have gotten nearly as toxic and harmful as they have. Between the announcement of Pokemon Home ahead of E3 and Masuda's non-statement, it's a textbook case of misreading your audience
 

retrobotjr

Member
Jan 10, 2018
2,018
If they weren't so obsessed with sticking to the yearly releases I think a lot of these problems could go away. More time to make a better game (ideally without crunch).
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,371
Okay, I'll call them "short-sighted buffoons sitting on their laurels because they know they don't need to innovate or expend great effort for their fans to lap up what they put out" instead of "lazy". Problem solved?

Or you could say, "I'm not going to buy their game".

But you're not gonna do that either are you?

Cant they like hire more devs?

Because that worked so well for Ubisoft over the course of the past decade.
 

Xadra

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2018
1,983
The more loved a franchise is, the strongest are the reactions when things turn out wrong.

I think that is the reason the response of the fans appear stronger or more toxic, because a lot of us grow with Pokémon.

Not trying to justify anything; I'm sorry that Masuda have to go through all this. Also I'm sad and disagree with the decision of Game Freak to cutting Pokémon out of Sword and Shield.
 

IamFlying

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 6, 2019
765
It's not a significant part, it's only a very small but very loud/vocal part even here on era.
 
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