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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
First, let me preface this by saying that this thread is not about bashing beliefs with which I don't agree. More importantly, I do not condone personally attacking members, regardless of what their beliefs are.


This thread is about the growing concern of censorship on this forum whenever members express incredulity towards religious, mystical, and/or pseudoscientific beliefs.

Nearly any thread related to these subjects inevitably gets locked, and even if it doesn't, we're all expected to treat such topics with the same level of consideration that we would issues concerning minorities and oppressed classes, which is just absurd to me. These beliefs are not intrinsic properties of the nature of the people who hold them, so I don't see why they need to be treated with such high regard or sensitivity; people actively choose to hold these beliefs. If people have the freedom to believe and express whatever they want to believe and express, I don't see why people who find said beliefs ridiculous shouldn't be able to express such sentiments without fear of getting banned or threads getting locked, so long as people aren't being personally attacked for what they believe.

Another issue I have is with the notion that most religious, pseudoscientific, and superstitious beliefs are ultimately harmless. While you might be able to point to a specific example of a person holding an irrational belief as harmless, the underlying attitudes and thought processes that lead one to hold such beliefs are what can be considered potentially dangerous. While it's easy to criticize a person for being anti-vaxx, we have to understand that such a position doesn't emerge in a vacuum, and is a result of the lack of a mechanism that can filter out the biases that might predispose one to hold such a position.

In short, in a largely scientifically and informationally illiterate world, I think it's important to allow people to express their opinions about beliefs that promote a way of thinking that might ultimately be to society's detriment.

I am interested to hear from more era members on this issue, and whether or not you feel that a clear delineation can be made on what we can and cannot say regarding these types of beliefs.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
I can think of worse things than showing deference and understanding to another person's beliefs so long as they aren't harming anyone.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,933
I largely agree. I was taken aback by how unceremoniously the recent astrology thread was locked.


I can think of worse things than showing deference and understanding to another person's beliefs so long as they aren't harming anyone.
Well, I guess I'm feeling less and less tolerant of magical thinking in general when I hear some people's "reasons" to dismiss climate change or COVID vaccines, for instance...
 
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Oct 25, 2017
13,246
I'm with you on the pseudoscience bit, but can't agree with you on the religious bit.

Been on the internet, this forum, and it's predecessor enough to see what a "lack of deference" looks like, and it's largely some of the shitiest posts available – especially as it all tends to target one religion and group in particular.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,352
My stance is that you can be hard as you want on the religion/beliefs, but don't aim it at the people. Like it's fine to joke about how the Bible makes two contradictory accounts of how the universe was made in the first page, but it's not OK to call people dumb for believing it. Chiropractic is a bunch of harmful nonsense, but it's not cool to attack people that go and see a chiropractor.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,910
All beliefs are harmless until they're not, the trouble is few can agree on where the boundary is.

Regarding the astrology thing, the amount of people who take that stuff seriously is likely so insanely low that it doesn't make sense to paint all people who dabble in it with the same brush
 

Shoreu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,010
I feel like people outright get disrespectful when it comes to religion here.

There are absolutely points to be made about the negative impact of religion but I've seen it get out of hand over and over again here.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,941
Japan
I think it's a mix of many users not really knowing how to converse online in a way that doesn't alienate another portion of the users, and many of the mods not knowing how to moderate, at all.
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,655
I feel like people outright get disrespectful when it comes to religion here.

There are absolutely points to be made about the negative impact of religion but I've seen it get out of hand over and over again here.
100%.

how dare people be tolerant towards religious beliefs, op. It isn't like there are tons of people who get persecuted for them all the time
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
I can think of worse things than showing deference and understanding to another person's beliefs so long as they aren't harming anyone.
I think his point is that the bolded above is not always appreciated in the proper context. Risk discussion is often minimized in order to preserve the belief, or respect for the belief.
 

Thordawgg

Member
Nov 5, 2017
716
I largely agree. I was taken aback by how unceremoniously the recent astrology thread was locked.
I saw a thread earlier that got locked that was incredulous about this astrology thread. Didn't read into it but now I'm curious if this is contributing to OPs concern, I'll have to look it up
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,818
Is era showing to much deference to religion? My impression is that 90% of the people (at least those vocally active) tend to be pretty anti-religious and not exactly shy to voice those views. If mods cut back on the most excessive and aggressive posts from this group, then I don't see how that's stifling discussion. Seems more like they are trying to maintain a civil and neutral space for discussion.

Will say, though, that I find discussion about religion or superstitions fairly uninteresting and generally avoid them, so could be that I'm missing something here.
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
This is some "I am very smart" shit, and this thread is going to be locked.

There's a difference between pseudoscience and religion, to be clear. The lack of religious beliefs is as much a religious belief as anything else, and the lack of beliefs can be just as harmful as anything else. There's really no moral high ground; we're all pretty terrible at using our beliefs as a weapon against others to justify our moral superiority.
 

Shoreu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,010
Overall I think there are ways to have these conversations, even the more pointed ones but it's on the OP and posters to properly facilitate them.
 

SpottieO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,609
I feel like people outright get disrespectful when it comes to religion here.

There are absolutely points to be made about the negative impact of religion but I've seen it get out of hand over and over again here.
yes, I'm not even religious and I've noticed that a lot of era members are outright assholes and hyper aggressive about anything religious.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,320
Even if it has given individual people some internal guidance in a way that affects their lives positively (for which I am happy for those people), religion is still one of the greatest net negatives that the world has ever seen. I find it difficult to find a middle ground on something as destructive as religion.
 

Nilson

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,414
If this is about that "astrology is the same thing as flat earth thread," there was no censorship lol… I hope that's not the thread you have in mind
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
This is some "I am very smart" shit, and this thread is going to be locked.

There's a difference between pseudoscience and religion, to be clear. The lack of religious beliefs is as much a religious belief as anything else, and the lack of beliefs can be just as harmful as anything else. There's really no moral high ground; we're all pretty terrible at using our beliefs as a weapon against others to justify our moral superiority.

Agree with first part of post, disagree with this statement. But regardless, my sentiments remain the same. I'm an atheist, but hate those that claim moral superiority because they don't believe in religion. Learn to respect and tolerate other people's beliefs.
 

UltimateHigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,500
I'm very much an atheist but I don't have much interest in shitting on religion these days (unless provoked). pseudoscience though? go hard.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
You could try, idunno, just not posting in those threads?


But the larger problem isn't that the forum expects you to treat these thing with deference. But more often than not I find people like yourself, to frankly come off as an ass holes to those people. Like yall are incredulous that someone would believe in God, or have fun with astrology.
 
Sep 10, 2018
172
I think that there were several anecdotal accounts from experts in the astrology thread that do raise concerns about how serious some people take astrology and other adjacent hobbies, and I do think maybe people underestimate how easy it might be for bad faith actors to co-opt the hobby to be more sinister. That said that last thread had some real 14 year old who just discovered atheism on YouTube vibes so I'm not surprised the thread got shut down.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,816
Can't really agree with you at all, also, you aren't required to post in threads so you can just ignore ones about "religion" since you clearly aren't a fan.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,231
It's one thing to disagree with a religion/belief or find them all to be nonsense, it's another to effectively attack people who believe in these things. You don't know them or why they believe in such things and what that brings to them. The Astrology thread was a good example of people having no idea how to actually discuss these topics in a way that doesn't devolve into shit flinging and casual misogyny at best.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,042
I can think of worse things than showing deference and understanding to another person's beliefs so long as they aren't harming anyone.
That is kind of the crux of OP's post though...there are no truly harmless beliefs. Having come up in a highly religious area and family, I kind of have to agree with them there too. I've seen it in the people around me and how their ready acceptance of religion as an absolute literal has clearly distorted their ability to think critically and accept being wrong.

All that said, I'm still religious, but much more critically so than my peers. A large part of that is accepting that things are not simply good and evil, looking at other beliefs through a fair eye, using that same eye to self-reflect and see how my beliefs appear to outsiders, and probably most important these days, to realize that my beliefs do not give me the right or even desire to enforce them upon others.

There's a line between being religious and being a zealot and I keep myself firmly on the religious side as zealotry leads to bad places for a society.
 

Doc Holliday

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,809
It's a weird grey area. I bet no one would be upset or banned for calling Tom Cruise an idiot for being a Scientologist or making fun of anti-vaxxers. But if you swap Christianity or Islam , you're in a world of hurt.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Are you really suggesting that the posters being censored, or are in danger of censorship, are posters who don't believe in religion or spirituality? Really? On Era? Really?

If the recent thread on astrology is what prompted this, that thread was filled with people who disagreed with astrology and actively fought against the idea of it.

I agree with the OP.

This forum should really be more negative.

LOL
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,801
As an extremely non-religious person, I notice non-religious people being dickholes about religion on the forum far, far more than any sort of stifling of discussion or 'censorship.' Usually when there's a ban or a lock it's pretty clear why.

So I'm gonna have to disagree on this one.
 

Red

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,639
With religion it's tough, because there is a lot of cultural baggage involved. It's not different than any other out-of-an-ass theory of how the universe works but you have to step on eggshells around it because people steeped in it have been trained not to doubt. And "the culture" has been trained to be respectful. I don't think this is the place where that kind of conversation can be sorted out. I agree with basically all of what you're saying, but I wouldn't want to be the one saying it. Makes me a hypocrite, I know, but when it comes to "getting to truth" on the internet or elsewhere, my spirit is totally beaten down and defeated. People have no appetite for truth.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
These beliefs are not intrinsic properties of the nature of the people who hold them
I'm agnostic, so I'm not the best person to talk about this, but I'd say religious beliefs are absolutely intrinsic properties of the nature of some people. Especially for those who actively practice their religion. And that's fine. If that helps someone deal better with the harsh world we live in, more power to them.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
this a very hamfisted argument/complaint that actually does more harm than good.

ERA could actually do better with being more tolerant towards our religious users. i've seen a number of times where they get dogpiled and argued out of threads. just makes some people look like assholes.
 

Realyst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,163
It can (and usually does) become one of those very contentious debates in which no one wins. So why engage to begin with? The winning move is to not play the game.

If you disagree with someone's religious views and choose to challenge them, you're literally attacking them and not just an idea (from their perspective). This is because their life will most likely be completely entangled with their beliefs of their religion, whereas your life won't feel as threatened as their's is by you challenging them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
Conversely, it would be wrong of me to pin the failures of the catholic church to address sex abuse, and the damage the institution has caused to my life, on a worshipper on Era merely for mentioning that they worship or observe some of its customs.

Ridicule should not lead to bullying. Yet we've had enough threads concerning issues of moral righteousness lately that end up blaming and bullying other people. Even threads on Era regarding race and gender identity have lately attracted too much "day one" content as if these discussions never happened on Era before.

So this topic is very "yet you participate in society" with the "no belief is harmless" stuff.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,932
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory Point of Comparison
It is pretty wild that we have multiple threads mocking people for their belief that ivermectin is an effective COVID cure but other superstitions are off the table. The tacit position of the moderation stuff is that there are beliefs which are deserving of mockery. Say what you will about those people but they're at least onto something in that ivermectin is demonstrably medicine.
 
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Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,231
I mean we should most certainly respect other's faith systems as long as they are not actively promoting bigotry or actively organizing against the rights of those around them.
 

Prax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,755
First, let me preface this by saying that this thread is not about bashing beliefs with which I don't agree. More importantly, I do not condone personally attacking members, regardless of what their beliefs are.


This thread is about the growing concern of censorship on this forum whenever members express incredulity towards religious, mystical, and/or pseudoscientific beliefs.

Nearly any thread related to these subjects inevitably gets locked, and even if it doesn't, we're all expected to treat such topics with the same level of consideration that we would issues concerning minorities and oppressed classes, which is just absurd to me. These beliefs are not intrinsic properties of the nature of the people who hold them, so I don't see why they need to be treated with such high regard or sensitivity; people actively choose to hold these beliefs. If people have the freedom to believe and express whatever they want to believe and express, I don't see why people who find said beliefs ridiculous shouldn't be able to express such sentiments without fear of getting banned or threads getting locked, so long as people aren't being personally attacked for what they believe.

Another issue I have is with the notion that most religious, pseudoscientific, and superstitious beliefs are ultimately harmless. While you might be able to point to a specific example of a person holding an irrational belief as harmless, the underlying attitudes and thought processes that lead one to hold such beliefs are what can be considered potentially dangerous. While it's easy to criticize a person for being anti-vaxx, we have to understand that such a position doesn't emerge in a vacuum, and is a result of the lack of a mechanism that can filter out the biases that might predispose one to hold such a position.

In short, in a largely scientifically and informationally illiterate world, I think it's important to allow people to express their opinions about beliefs that promote a way of thinking that might ultimately be to society's detriment.

I am interested to hear from more era members on this issue, and whether or not you feel that a clear delineation can be made on what we can and cannot say regarding these types of beliefs.
IS THIS ABOUT ASTROLOGY WHICH I LOVE? lol

I think it is hard to delineate between what is honest discussion vs meanspiritedness that may leak into other biases and bigotry against people for who they are. Hard to say where "these superstitions are silly" slowly turns into "those dumb Viet people" as an example lol (I have this in mind because my dad, bless his heart, has been going wild watching ghost hunter conspiracy vids and seguing it with traditional ancestor veneration stuff).

Don't get me wrong, I also love science and can compartmentalize my desire to believe vs what is scientifically probable and real. This isn't so easy for other people, and perhaps the fact that I "do both" is also irritating. We're dealing with psychology, behaviour, cognition and perception, and emotions of people and groups, which is always a blurry and messy area of study anyway. Pinpointing the cause and effect relationship between all that can be pretty fraught.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,933
That said that last thread had some real 14 year old who just discovered atheism on YouTube vibes so I'm not surprised the thread got shut down.
I'll admit I didn't read it all of it, and from what you're saying, I might have dodged a bullet there. It's just that the final post that announced the thread was locked didn't cite that as a reason, but merely said "Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean its stupid. Let folks live their lives.", and that really weirded me out.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
This is some "I am very smart" shit, and this thread is going to be locked.

If this is your take as former admin on this site, and current admin/mods feel the same way, I do not foresee a healthy future for this forum. It's certainly concerning given how off-base it is. I wasn't trying to be snarky or elitist in the slightest, yet that seems to be your suggestion.

You're quite literally proving my point.
 
Jan 27, 2020
3,385
Washington, DC
These beliefs are not intrinsic properties of the nature of the people who hold them, so I don't see why they need to be treated with such high regard or sensitivity; people actively choose to hold these beliefs. If people have the freedom to believe and express whatever they want to believe and express, I don't see why people who find said beliefs ridiculous shouldn't be able to express such sentiments without fear of getting banned or threads getting locked, so long as people aren't being personally attacked for what they believe.

I've always thought this, but I learned long ago that people prefer to treat religion as an immutable characteristic. I'm on an island off by myself.
 

Zebesian-X

Member
Dec 3, 2018
19,694
What sentiment specifically are you seeking to express about religion that you feel you currently can't?

This reads like you're dancing around a very particular point but aren't quite committing to it. Was there a specific incident that caused you to write this up?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
13,246
If this is your take as former admin on this site, and current admin/mods feel the same way, I do not foresee a healthy future for this forum. It's certainly concerning given how off-base it is. I wasn't trying to be snarky or elitist in the slightest, yet that seems to be your suggestion.

You're quite literally proving my point.

It's the take of anyone reading your thread who has seen discussions about religion on this forum or its predecessor.

If anything, that post is being too nice.
 
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