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What is with this "Games with Markers, Hints, or Quests = BAD" notion that keeps coming out of Elden Ring fans lately?

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digitalrelic

digitalrelic

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I've been seeing this notion around the internet for weeks, but it culminated this morning when I read well-respected journalist Jason Schreier join in on the "UBISOFT=BAD" train:




It's like, can't we just let people enjoy the games they want to enjoy? Why do we have to put down other games in order to feel good about the game we love? There are PLENTY of players out there that are very put off by Elden Ring's obtuse approach towards exploration & quest design. Just as there's plenty of players that don't like the Assassin's Creed formula.

But you know what? There's plenty of people that love the Assassin's Creed formula, too. Hell, Horizon: Forbidden West follows the AC formula pretty much to a T and it got fantastic reviews and many people view it as their game of the year.

Other past games that actually won GOTY in their respective years weren't afraid to have quests, guidelines, and hints, either. Games like Witcher 3, Dragon Age: Inquisition and even the Mass Effect games to an extent all have all kinds of map markers and collectables and points of interest.

Why has the narrative from so many Elden Ring fans suddenly shifted to "game helping to guide you = BAD GAME"?
 
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zombiejames

zombiejames

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Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Elden Ring is doing a pretty job of exposing the problems other open world games have. I see no issue poking fun at that.
 
YozoraXV

YozoraXV

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Oct 30, 2017
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Yeah I hope this doesn't become the norm. I like exploring for sure but the lack of quest logs or some form of directions annoys me, since it just ends up being a time sync going in different directions and hoping for the best.
 
Custódio

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People should continue to talk about game designs that they like or that they don't like, even if there are other people who don't agree. I don't see the problem here.
 
Muffin

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Oct 26, 2017
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What I think is very funny is that some quests in Elden Ring literally give you a red quest marker but some people act like any kind of guidance would be a cardinal sin in a FromSoft game.

I do get making a little fun of Ubisoft style open worlds, sometimes they work for me, and sometimes they overdo it.

Tbf I dont need quest markers. What I feel is missing is a log with all NPCs encountered and their dialogue so far.
 
modiz

modiz

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Oct 8, 2018
17,844
Well, if I CAN play the game, then everyone can and its flawless.
Thats basically the sentiment that I have been getting from these tweets. I am loving Elden Ring immensly, and those flaws dont impact me too badly, but those issues will definitely make the game not approachable for everyone to manage.
Meanwhile developers that even dared to say that the game has flaws in its design that hurt accessibility for everyone to expeirence the game like it is intended got harrassed and forced to lock their accounts, it has been an absolutely disgusting shit show the past few days.
 

Raigor

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May 14, 2020
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People are tired of the usual huge open world map with quest markers and shit at every 40 seconds.

Elden Ring didn't follow this template and it's referishing to see.

Open World games started to become soulless and focus tested as hell
 
Launchpad

Launchpad

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Oct 26, 2017
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It's fine to like those types of games just like it's fine to criticise them. The same thing happened when BotW came out and it's a thing that's been constantly bubbling for years so when a game comes out that gets it so right then people latch onto it.
 
Man Called Aerodynamics

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Oct 29, 2017
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Agreed, I like quest markers in my RPGs :)

Happy for Souls fans and the great game they just got, but this feels a little like, why can't you just be happy about what you like, why does it have to be about insulting something else.
 
Wrexis

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Nov 4, 2017
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I mean it goes both ways.

There was a tweet earlier today about some game devs from Ubisoft and Guerilla tweeting they didn't understand why Elden Ring's design was so popular.
And criticizing the game performance too.

EDIT: Misremembered this tweet somewhat.
What they said was game reviewers don't care about ux, performance or stability and got shredded for saying so.
 
SPRidley

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Oct 25, 2017
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Souls fans are irritating as fuck.
I wouldnt mind other open world games having less markers (although i love to have a menu with the sidequests i started, even if they only have directions using the actual map with wenies and stuff, "you will find him near the big tower of wizardy" for example, instead of markers, thank you very much), but this notion of this is the best game ever and all games need to do the same? Fuck that nonsense.
Also i remember playing odyssey in the no makers mode until you disocvered them and that was fun, so schirier is just saying idiocy at this point.
are shown in the UI has always been crap and ugly
 
Finale Fireworker

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You have this narrative backwards.

This started because Jason tweeted about how much he enjoyed the self-guided and cryptic nature of the game's questlines. People latched on to this as Elden Ring being bad for "not having a quest log." This tweet is in response to the latest talking point against FromSoft games for not having the same features or functions as other popular video games. It is a joke in response to that criticism.
 
Geg

Geg

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From what I saw it started after some tweets from devs at Ubisoft and Guerilla complaining about those aspects of Elden Ring and seeming bitter about it scoring so high among reviewers
 
Stoney Mason

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Oct 25, 2017
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It happens every time a souls game comes out. The dominating memes for the following six months in gamer circles tend to be that nearly every genre of game should somehow copy or crib everything from those games.
 
modiz

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Wrexis said:
I mean it goes both ways.

There was a tweet earlier today about some game devs from Ubisoft and Guerilla tweeting they didn't understand why Elden Ring's design was so popular.
And criticizing the game performance too.
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That was not what they said, they pointed out the issue that reviewers didnt care to point out potential accessibility issues in Elden Ring in terms of design.

Also because of those tweets they have brought a toxic whirlwind of the community on them in a way that was absolutely terrible.
 
sensui-tomo

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Dio said:
Ohh? Mind linking that? Got curious.
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Saw this posted among many discord servers. Note I'm just posting the tweet. Not to endorse message of said people posting it. But going into the tweet thread, you've got someone from ubisoft, an indie studio and a horizon uix person in that one tweet.
 
regenhuber

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For every core gamer that has played tens of open world games there are 100 newcomers/casual gamers that need the icons and plenty of hints/visual cues.
 
massoluk

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It weirded me out that there are people on Twitter glorifying the absence of quest log, then advocating keeping notes manually on a physical notebook, which is more or less a questlog.
 
Thera

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Because some people are tired of the OW "general" formula (which is used by Rockstar too, this is not a Ubisoft problem).
So they like to say, pointing at BoTW and now ER "this is what I want".

The problem, like you said, is that not everybody wants this approach either.
 
skillzilla81

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It's not exactly a new thing that people are complaining about the "Ubisoft Checklist" open world template.
 
Praedyth

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It really bothers me because Ubisoft and etc. are trying to keep HUDs simpler and more dynamic so you can either be fully immersed or either fully guided, or somewhere in between. Dynamic HUDs are much more superior to simpler or bloated HUDs. The CHOICE is nice, I can't imagine why this gets to people so much.
 
Shock32

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Oct 27, 2017
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I don't see any harm in a marker for some open world games. GTA6 without any kind of helpful markers would be hell on earth. ER can kinda get away with it because the open world isn't complex or hard to navigate.
 
Wrexis

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Dio said:
Ohh? Mind linking that? Got curious.
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modiz said:
That was not what they said, they pointed out the issue that reviewers didnt care to point out potential accessibility issues in Elden Ring in terms of design.

Also because of those tweets they have brought a toxic whirlwind of the community on them in a way that was absolutely terrible.
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You're right. I hadn't seen the tweet in a few hours and couldn't remember the details.
What they said was game reviewers don't care about ux, performance or stability and got shredded for saying so.
 
Yippiekai

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Some people, me included, found the BOTW or ER open world style to be kinda refreshing: a bigger emphasis on discovering things by looking at the game and not following a map with question marks every where. That's what exploring a big world should feel like. Most open worlds, if not almost all of them, prefer to do the opposite where you tend to have the map define where you go and how you do things instead of just exploring the world.

In BOTW/ER, you tend to climb a mountain/tower not to have a little cutscene and discover a part of the map but to see from above what catches your eye, where you can find things, where to go next. You don't have "quests", you don't have markers outside of the one you put there. You go, find things, discover locations, weapons, armors, not because the game tells you that it's there but because you wanted to see what could be there.

What I'm more surprised is not to see people liking ER as the exploration type game but a weird consensus from some people in the Elden Ring OT that have been fed dozens upon dozens of question-marks open world and can't understand for a second why people would like more than 2 games doing something differently.

Don't act like standard open world will disappear after ER. They didn't after BOTW.
 
NeoBob688

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The reason is simple: the UbiSoft formula has been used, and copied, and misused ad nauseam. People are tired of it and simply feel it is not engaging game design.
 
Janus

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Jason is just poking fun at the differences in Open World games. He actually really liked AC: Valhalla. You shouldn't take this so seriously. More and detailed thoughts about Open World games and Elden Ring in particular can be listened to in his Podcast "Triple Click" with co-hosts Maddy Myers and Kirk Hamilton.

Elden Ring is a fresh breath of air. Kind of how like BotW shook up the Open World genre.
 
JakeNoseIt

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Dio said:
Souls fans not being stuck in their asses? Impossible.
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It's part this, part people parroting the "critical" discussion fad, and part that the Ubisoft style of open world game is going through it's cheugy period right now. Feels like people are feeling refreshed by vista-based exploration (though I'd argue against ER's effectiveness there), but really just more interested in the new thing--which is on its own also good. I think in a few years there will be a "classic" style open world game that people really respond to and a lot of the discourse will surround missing that kind of game.
 
Hektor

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Praedyth said:
It really bothers me because Ubisoft and etc. are trying to keep HUDs simpler and more dynamic so you can either be fully immersed or either fully guided, or somewhere in between. Dynamic HUDs are much more superior to simpler or bloated HUDs. The CHOICE is nice, I can't imagine why this gets to people so much.
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Because its not a choice.
Yes, sometimes you can deactivate them, but unlike a game properly designed with their absense in mind, these are not designed to be played that way, meaning that you often effectively can't.
 
OnionPowder

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It's a type of design that's been mostly lost in big AAA games. People love that type of design and others hate it. This is most definitely not exclusive to Elden Ring, you're just seeing it associated with Elden Ring because it's the hottest game out there right now.

If your quest is only completable because there's a marker telling me where to go, that's not a well designed world or quest. That's just you telling me where to go. Not that quest markers are inherently bad. I started with Oblivion for Elder Scrolls so I'm okay with them. It's mostly boomers / morrowind & everquest fans that want the feeling of exploration that From Software tries to cater to. It's a different style of play and a different vibe for the world.
 
Dyno

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Tbh its dumb. HFW with no quest markers and explanations would suck so bad. What works for some games won't work for others
 
Lord Fanny

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massoluk said:
It weirded me out that there are people on Twitter glorifying the absence of quest log, then advocating keeping notes manually on a physical notebook, which is more or less a questlog.
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Lol, yeah, it is incredibly stupid when you think about it in those terms, but From fans are generally pretty pretentious in that way.
 
Muffin

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sensui-tomo said:

Saw this posted among many discord. Note I'm just posting the tweet. Not to endorse message of said people posting it.
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I mean, they're completely right.

Ubisoft style games are often overloaded on markers and so on.

Meanwhile in Elden Ring you cannot expect to keep track of NPCs and most quests without writing it down or consulting a wiki. And the performance issues are completely real. And I have already encountered a quest where the NPC is not showing up at his supposed spots for whatever non apparent reasons, so yeah, quest design also isnt spotless.

A middle ground of encountered NPC locations and their past dialogue in a log would be optimal, imo.
 
Lotus

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I mean, people disliked those type of open world games before Elden Ring came out
 
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