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-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
Pretending to respect different cultures, and appropriating bits and pieces of their language and ideas without understanding or respecting them to look "woke" or whatever, drives me up the fucking wall. It is also way too common.

As the son of two African immigrants, it is infuriating how people who swear they are allies and believe in multiculturalism are so quick to compartmentalize bad behavior or deflect criticism for it. Whether it was the black kids on the basketball court yelling about how my cousin must be fighting lions and tigers in the jungle; the frat boys who tried to recruit me at college who ended up getting suspended for wearing blackface at a Halloween party; the dumbass white girl who would puff her stomach out and joke about being a "starving African baby"; people in our own damn neighborhood yelling at my Mom to go home when they heard her speaking her own language; and so on. All of this happening in very liberal areas of New York, no less.

It's a truly surreal thing, hearing all types of ignorance and fuckery about the Continent from whites who listen to rap music and use black slang AND black people who would offer vague praise of "the motherland" they've never been to and know nothing about. And it's pretty much part and parcel for any race or culture that isn't considered "standard".

Thank you.
 

Obvious

Banned
Apr 21, 2018
84
Question: why do you get to decide what is and isn't racist?

Why did Isaac Newton get to decide how gravity works?

he didn't, he figured that shit out on his own. Why do I get to decide? Everyone gets to decide. Did you honestly read that entire article and not question whether you get to decide that you agree with the premise? That because the person who wrote it is non-white and invoked the word "racism", it should be automatically be assumed to be true? Must be nice never having to think, ever
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Why did Isaac Newton get to decide how gravity works?

he didn't, he figured that shit out on his own. Why do I get to decide? Everyone gets to decide. Did you honestly read that entire article and not question whether you get to decide that you agree with the premise? That because the person who wrote it is non-white and invoked the word "racism", it should be automatically be assumed to be true? Must be nice never having to think, ever
Let me make this simpler for you. Are you white?
 

Deleted member 8118

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,639

Casual

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,547
User banned (3 days): hostility, derailment, history of similar behaviour
I didn't know I was getting notoriety. I'm fine staying right here, thanks.
Could do both.

But yeah, definitely stay here. You're basically a caricature of this sites political views at this point, I'd be lying if your posts aren't at least entertaining.
 

Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,847
I do yoga cause it does wonders for my back / shoulder. Haven't heard / met anyone as described.
 

Gearkeeper 8A

Member
Oct 27, 2017
615
no one wants to look like a bad person, being "liberal" for some people is now viewed as the "good" and modern one, this is amplified with the media, so you have people that never really get was is about being liberal or wanting justicie for minorities, but hey it looks good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Edit: Actually never mind. Not worth it.

I'll just say that there are a lot of people ITT showing their asses pretty clearly from their ridiculous reactions to this article. If you can't even be bothered to listen to POC when they tell you about their experiences, don't pretend you're actively anti-racist in other threads.
 
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FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
Judging by the defensive responses, I think the author hit a nerve and maybe is on to something.

Anyway Club Pilates membership near me: 135 a month, so 1650 a year.

No dog in this fight, I never thought it was good excersice.
 

gesicht

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
When an article like this comes out I like to compare it to my study of martial arts. We follow lots of Japanese/Okinawan customs in Karate and a few Brazillian ones in BJJ but it has nothing to do with virtue signalling it is just following the traditions passed down by the instructors.

Also the term virtue signalling is incredibly stupid. I don't like when people take these alt-right creations and put them in unrelated articles.

"Tradition" or not, how is parroting stuff whose cultural context you don't understand any different to what the article is arguing against?
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
Edit: Actually never mind. Not worth it.

I'll just say that there are a lot of people ITT showing their asses pretty clearly from their ridiculous reactions to this article. If you can't even be bothered to listen to POC when they tell you about their experiences, don't pretend you're actively anti-racist in other threads.

I've noticed a trend of "listening to PoCs only when they agree with my preconceived bias" instead of "listening to the multiple Indian-Americans in this thread point out how full of BS the article is."

Nope It's about yoga as cultural appropriation, which is something I've been hearing a lot lately. I only used me as an example because ya now, I can only speak for myself.

Once again - read the slate article linked earlier. This cannot possibly be cultural appropriation, because Indians are the one trying to spread it in the US. Like, we deliberately gave this to y'all and the west in general so you could make it part of your culture. We don't particularly care how it changes once we've given it to you, because we aren't afraid that the "American" yoga will corrupt our culture somehow. Indian culture is specifically really big about sharing our culture with others (and seeing how it is changed / shaped to fit into that culture) - like, that's a huge part of it to us. So for anyone, even another Indian-American, to be like "omg why are you taking our culture" and to pooh-pooh it is actively fighting against what the actual folks whose culture it is wants. That's why it strikes a nerve with me.

As S.E. Smith wrote in xoJane, "While many people appear uncomfortable when it comes to talking about cultural appropriation, yoga furnishes a textbook example; westerners lift something from another tradition, brand it as 'exotic,' proceed to dilute and twist it to satisfy their own desires, and then call it their own."

What these arguments really demonstrate is how jejune the whole "cultural appropriation" charge can be—particularly when it's wielded by people who know very little of the cultures they purport to protect. In the case of yoga, it completely ignores the agency of Indians themselves, who have been making a concerted effort to export yoga to the West since the late 19th century.

Back then, Indians saw getting Westerners interested in yoga as a way of undermining British colonialism. Britain's colonial administrators tended to be contemptuous of Indian religion; indeed, they treated the purported backwardness of Indian thought and culture as justification for their continued rule. Indian nationalists believed, rightly, that if they could popularize their spiritual practices in the West, they would win support for independence.

Thus nationalists sent the Hindu monk Swami Vivekananda as a sort of missionary to America, where he introduced yoga philosophy in the 1890s.

But Indian writers on cultural appropriation generally recognize what some Western champions of identity politics do not, which is that Indians have played an active, enthusiastic role in globalizing their spiritual practices. As Gita Mehta wrote in her great 1994 book Karma Cola: Marketing the Mystic East, "As our home industry expands on every front, at last it is our turn to mass market."

India is a country of dizzying dynamism, one that has always eagerly absorbed elements from other cultures into its own while proudly sharing the best of its own culture with the world. "All humanity's greatest is mine," wrote poet Rabindranath Tagore, who won the 1913 Nobel Prize in Literature. "The infinite personality of man (as the Upanishads say) can only come from the magnificent harmony of all human races. My prayer is that India may represent the co-operation of all the peoples of the world."

Labor - yeah, not gonna lie, kinda weird, but maybe they run fundraisers every now and then or something.
 

Ary F.

Member
Oct 30, 2017
736
Judging from the reactions, the author struck a nerve. I know what she's talking about because I've seen it. Its insufferable and drives me up the fucking wall. SF is full of white women like this. If you do yoga because you enjoy it and/or it helps you with back issues, and you partake without adding mystical orientalism like a dash of sambal oelek... this article ain't geared towards you, you ARE NOT the the type of person the author is talking about.

She wasnt too far off comparing yoga studios that enable this behaviour to country clubs. Country clubs have always been associated with exclusivity, barring minorities, networking, and most importantly: maintaining the status quo.
That's what theses yoga studios (again not ALL yoga studios, just the yoga studios that add phony new age spiritualism mixed in with eastern spirituality, there's enough of these that its a problem) do, maintain the status quo that white women can cherry pick aspects of other peoples' culture to look "woke" and get more likes on Instagram or whatever brownie points they yearn for. Adding that dash of orientalism makes these women feel exotic and unique and open minded in they're otherwise mundane lives. They have no respect for these cultures at all but are only interested in how good it makes them look. But because they're women, they can use their white femininity to evade responsibility for their actions. If you're thinking of that one article and that one thread that got closed by mods, yeah, this is like that.

Its not just white women that are responsible for this, though they are the majority. When I was in Louisiana I had the misfortune of hanging out with this diverse group of upper middle class 20 somethings in the French Quarter. Over drinks this one Brazilian chick was bragging about using Peyote during a roadtrip in Mexico and that it made her "feel closer to the universe."
Peyote is a hallucinogenic that's used in indigenous rituals and rites in certain tribes, for example the Navajo use it for their Ghost Dance. Now under Mexican law only the Wixárika people can consume peyote, this has led to a rise in drug tourism. The resulting "peyoteros" has led to the cacti becoming endangered. If the plant disappears, the entire Wixarica culture disappears. So I was pretty pissed that this Brazilian chick had chosen to trip balls with something that is considered sacred in another culture. When I called her out on her shit, she said, it was okay for her to take peyote "because there's not many indegenous groups left that use it."

It was fucking surreal and infuriating beyond belief hearing someone say that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I've noticed a trend of "listening to PoCs only when they agree with my preconceived bias" instead of "listening to the multiple Indian-Americans in this thread point out how full of BS the article is."



Once again - read the slate article linked earlier. This cannot possibly be cultural appropriation, because Indians are the one trying to spread it in the US. Like, we deliberately gave this to y'all and the west in general so you could make it part of your culture. We don't particularly care how it changes once we've given it to you, because we aren't afraid that the "American" yoga will corrupt our culture somehow. Indian culture is specifically really big about sharing our culture with others (and seeing how it is changed / shaped to fit into that culture) - like, that's a huge part of it to us. So for anyone, even another Indian-American, to be like "omg why are you taking our culture" and to pooh-pooh it is actively fighting against what the actual folks whose culture it is wants. That's why it strikes a nerve with me.









Labor - yeah, not gonna lie, kinda weird, but maybe they run fundraisers every now and then or something.

I've noticed a trend of dismissing a person's valid experience outright simply because other people of their so-called "race" haven't had the same experience, because everyone with the same skin color is apparently also the same person. Come on ffs, these are kindergarten rebuttals.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
Pretending to respect different cultures, and appropriating bits and pieces of their language and ideas without understanding or respecting them to look "woke" or whatever, drives me up the fucking wall. It is also way too common.

As the son of two African immigrants, it is infuriating how people who swear they are allies and believe in multiculturalism are so quick to compartmentalize bad behavior or deflect criticism for it. Whether it was the black kids on the basketball court yelling about how my cousin must be fighting lions and tigers in the jungle; the frat boys who tried to recruit me at college who ended up getting suspended for wearing blackface at a Halloween party; the dumbass white girl who would puff her stomach out and joke about being a "starving African baby"; people in our own damn neighborhood yelling at my Mom to go home when they heard her speaking her own language; and so on. All of this happening in very liberal areas of New York, no less.

It's a truly surreal thing, hearing all types of ignorance and fuckery about the Continent from whites who listen to rap music and use black slang AND black people who would offer vague praise of "the motherland" they've never been to and know nothing about. And it's pretty much part and parcel for any race or culture that isn't considered "standard".
NYC is a very segregated and racist city. Don't ever get it twisted.
 

Deleted member 12224

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,113
I've noticed a trend of "listening to PoCs only when they agree with my preconceived bias" instead of "listening to the multiple Indian-Americans in this thread point out how full of BS the article is."



Once again - read the slate article linked earlier. This cannot possibly be cultural appropriation, because Indians are the one trying to spread it in the US. Like, we deliberately gave this to y'all and the west in general so you could make it part of your culture. We don't particularly care how it changes once we've given it to you, because we aren't afraid that the "American" yoga will corrupt our culture somehow. Indian culture is specifically really big about sharing our culture with others (and seeing how it is changed / shaped to fit into that culture) - like, that's a huge part of it to us. So for anyone, even another Indian-American, to be like "omg why are you taking our culture" and to pooh-pooh it is actively fighting against what the actual folks whose culture it is wants. That's why it strikes a nerve with me.









Labor - yeah, not gonna lie, kinda weird, but maybe they run fundraisers every now and then or something.
"listen" has often meant "agree with someone's opinion", because to listen and then not agree is evidence you didn't really listen, so go back and listen again.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
983
Light exercise masquerading as spiritualism is going to attract a lot of shallow people.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,637
That's unfortunately what we as white people tend to do. The correct response to the woman should have been "I apologize, I did not consider that, I will be more considerate in the future", what is so hard about that? To us of course it's a small deal, we do it so often it's just business as usual, if you're a minority individual seeing it every day for years eventually that thing that seems so small is just another jenga block on the tower for someone else. There's more to the story as far as the *why* the culture is being appropriated but at the end of the day it would be cool if more people were down with just apologizing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,081
Hmm. Do you genuinely apply that to every part of your life, or just opinions that don't automatically resonate with you on an intuitive level?
Whether or not logical analysis is applied consistently (and for everyone who isn't a professional philosopher it probably isn't) has no bearing on the validity of that analysis.

What is your goal in speculating about the poster's motives?
 

Deleted member 35011

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
2,185
Most of the people that I know do Yoga for a sense of health and activity. I am don't know anyone who has taken it as far as what the author describes.

Yeah, same here. That or they've started DDP Yoga because there's only so many times you can hear Jericho saying it before giving it a shot as if to appease the podcast man.

I don't know if in my case it's because everyone I know does DDP Yoga which is as far away from anything resembling spiritualism as it's humanly possible, but yeah everyone I know only does it for the physical benefits, including myself. It helped me with a lot of joint pain I was feeling and is super good for sports that require a lot of flexibility.

Like I've never heard of people who act like what the article describes. I don't doubt they exist, I'm just surprised because I hadn't encountered anyone like that in my life before.
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
I've noticed a trend of dismissing a person's valid experience outright simply because other people of their so-called "race" haven't had the same experience, because everyone with the same skin color is apparently also the same person. Come on ffs, these are kindergarten rebuttals.

That's true. The entire "listen because of surface demographics" is based on minorities all being in lockstep, which is silly. The author is also Indian American and I disagree with her strongly because her argument completely ignores the history of yoga in the West as well as denies the agency and strength of our culture because she's upset at (what I suspect) is struggling to find identity in the US as a first gen Indian immigrant (something I also struggle with).

Anyway I made my two cents known so I'm done arguing in the thread - PMs are open though.

"listen" has often meant "agree with someone's opinion", because to listen and then not agree is evidence you didn't really listen, so go back and listen again.

This is sarcasm right? :-/. I can't tell here anymore lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
That's true. The entire "listen because of surface demographics" is based on minorities all being in lockstep, which is silly. The author is also Indian American and I disagree with her strongly because her argument completely ignores the history of yoga in the West as well as denies the agency and strength of our culture because she's upset at (what I suspect) is struggling to find identity in the US as a first gen Indian immigrant (something I also struggle with).

Anyway I made my two cents known so I'm done arguing in the thread - PMs are open though.



This is sarcasm right? :-/. I can't tell here anymore lol

That's what I was saying. I have no problem with you disagreeing with her but I do have a problem with people calling this faux outrage and doing everything in their power to completely discredit what she's saying simply because they can't relate to how she feels about it. I don't think that's a very good approach to these sorts of issues regardless of whether one agrees or not.

This is an issue I keep seeing almost every time there's a discussion about cultural appropriation and I honestly don't get it. Maybe you think her experience is skewed and not based on facts, but so what? It's still her genuine experience assuming she's not making it all up (which is a weird claim to make) and I think that providing the facts (in this case about your own perception of western Yoga proliferation) is more than enough. Not saying you specifically, just anyone dismissing these types of articles off-hand in general.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Clearly the individual cases she presents of what happened to her (with being fired over the Namaste joke and the pictures of starving Indians) are out of order. I imagine everyone can all agree to that at least.

That's what I was saying. I have no problem with you disagreeing with her but I do have a problem with people calling this faux outrage and doing everything in their power to completely discredit what she's saying simply because they can't relate to how she feels about it. I don't think that's a very good approach to these sorts of issues regardless of whether one agrees or not.

This is an issue I keep seeing almost every time there's a discussion about cultural appropriation and I honestly don't get it. Maybe you think her experience is skewed and not based on facts, but so what? It's still her genuine experience assuming she's not making it all up (which is a weird claim to make) and I think that providing the facts (in this case about your own perception of western Yoga proliferation) is more than enough. Not saying you specifically, just anyone dismissing these types of articles off-hand in general.

I think the overall point that the poster you're quoting and others like them are focusing on is that even though Yoga is being commerialised and approriated, that was always the intent. That Indians brought Yoga to the west in order to be appropriated.

I don't think they're dismissing her experience (at least i hope not) but rather her seperate argument about appropriating yoga being a bad thing..

I certainly think that not every single case of appropriation ever is bad. A lot of Indians and/or Indian-Americans ITT seem to believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with yoga being commercialised. Though I also certainly think any yoga place that does what the ones she describes she saw in the article does is being offensive.
 

Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,656
I've noticed a trend of dismissing a person's valid experience outright simply because other people of their so-called "race" haven't had the same experience, because everyone with the same skin color is apparently also the same person. Come on ffs, these are kindergarten rebuttals.

He makes a long post explaining why he doesn't think it is cultural appropriation and this is your response? What the fuck?
 

Deleted member 12224

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,113
That's true. The entire "listen because of surface demographics" is based on minorities all being in lockstep, which is silly. The author is also Indian American and I disagree with her strongly because her argument completely ignores the history of yoga in the West as well as denies the agency and strength of our culture because she's upset at (what I suspect) is struggling to find identity in the US as a first gen Indian immigrant (something I also struggle with).

Anyway I made my two cents known so I'm done arguing in the thread - PMs are open though.



This is sarcasm right? :-/. I can't tell here anymore lol
Nah. I'm merely observing a trend, not endorsing.
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,282
Being so vexed over "Namastay together" is a bit much but yikes at hanging pictures of malnourished kids on the wall.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
"Tradition" or not, how is parroting stuff whose cultural context you don't understand any different to what the article is arguing against?

A good question. But I learn karate for the value the martial art provides me and the package it is in is inconsequential.

I think it would be disrespectful to take someones teaching (my Okinawan instructors and precursors in this case) and wrap my own western bow on it. Practicing the way they teach is far more respectful than that alternative.
 

Qvoth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,876
a fitness instructor in Texas who bragged to me, that though she had never been to India she often fantasized that she was "communing with Indian street children" while she practised yoga and meditation. I still wince at the memory of a former college roommate, who in a jilted drunken rage, screamed at our Pakistani cab driver when he refused her advances, "my husband could buy you and your whole country!"
yikes and lol
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,090
"Tradition" or not, how is parroting stuff whose cultural context you don't understand any different to what the article is arguing against?
I mean, that's how learn language. Someone teaches you how to use words until you internalize their meaning. Imagine going to a karate class and when the instructor tells you to bow going "whoa whoa whoa buddy, I'm an American and that's not my culture!" Just kind of a ridiculous situation and most people, especially in a class situation, are just going to take whatever they're being taught at face value. It's really just kind of a weird thing all around but honestly not racist in and of itself. Making a stink about this stuff is kind of missing the forest for the trees in terms of the actual problematic racism imo. Fix the wage gap so that POC are taking the same classes as the white women and this stuff will sort itself out naturally. Telling white women not to say namaste is just hand wringing and doesn't fix the fact that whether they say it or not they're still in an insulated bubble

As an aside, reading through Pluto right now and it's good stuff. You read the Astroboy material is based on by any chance?
 

Megalosaro

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
431
Southern California
Why did Isaac Newton get to decide how gravity works?

he didn't, he figured that shit out on his own. Why do I get to decide? Everyone gets to decide. Did you honestly read that entire article and not question whether you get to decide that you agree with the premise? That because the person who wrote it is non-white and invoked the word "racism", it should be automatically be assumed to be true? Must be nice never having to think, ever

Isaac Newton didn't discover gravity works. Just that such a phenomenon exists. We still don't know how it works.

Just saying
 

gesicht

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
A good question. But I learn karate for the value the martial art provides me and the package it is in is inconsequential.

I think it would be disrespectful to take someones teaching (my Okinawan instructors and precursors in this case) and wrap my own western bow on it. Practicing the way they teach is far more respectful than that alternative.

I suppose the question is whether you're doing Karate as a way of exploring Okinawan culture or whether you paying an Okinawan to receive martial art instruction on your terms. Put this another way, are you being invited to participate in a cultural act on your instructor's terms or are they performing those acts because white society expects Karate instruction to be wrapped up with a stereotypical cultural bow?

For an interesting analysis on cultural voyeurism see here.

I mean, that's how learn language. Someone teaches you how to use words until you internalize their meaning. Imagine going to a karate class and when the instructor tells you to bow going "whoa whoa whoa buddy, I'm an American and that's not my culture!"

That's not what I meant. More above.

As an aside, reading through Pluto right now and it's good stuff. You read the Astroboy material is based on by any chance?

I've read some Tezuka (Ode to Kirihito, MW, Ayako, Buddha, Blackjack) but never Astroboy. There's a current omnibus that collects everything -- and I've considered picking it up -- but it's a badly done shrunk-down paperback cheapie and so I've avoided it. Like many people though, I grew up watching dubs of the 80s anime. It's pretty cool.

Have you read 20th Century Boys? It's pretty great stuff from Kurasawa.
 

Prax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,755
I think I know what the author is getting at even though maybe she's mixing some things together and muddying stuff.

Behaviors can feel culturally appropriative even when the "export" itself was meant for worldwide consumption. Just because Yoga is exported for western consumption, it doesn't make the other stuff she pointed out happening as unconnected or without cause for side-eye (i.e. pics of starving indian people as A E S T H E T I C, bastardized language use, weird performative virtue antics).

The Yoga activity itself is neutral and not necessarily racist to participate in even if you're non-indian or whatever, but the WAY people perform within this "space" can make it so. So no, if you are not this way, you're fine. If you are weird pretend woke and talking up your spiritual connectedness to India and starving kids and namaste-ing out the ass then maybe you're being a huge tool and using Yoga as an outlet for your ignorant or unawarely racist self etc. I think that's what the author is attempting to get at anyway?
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
I'd call bullshit on this if it was about any other country than the USA. People seem so confused. Maybe improve education?

Weird story.

'feel closer to destitute and starving street children in India"
I mean, there are people who are stupid like that. But that's one person in a large group ,at most. I hope.
 
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