Dark Souls 1 seems to be looked upon fondly? I can't help but criticise it for all its flaws.

Opa-Pa said:

Blighttown is awesome tho.

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A friend told me the hatred for blight town comes not from the level design but because in the original PS3 release the area had severe framerate issues that made it practically unplayable.

We were playing the Remaster together (well, we would party chat as we both played) and he told me on the PS3 he straight up gave up there and loved that the issue was fixed in the remaster.

I'm a huge fan of the series and I think Dark Souls is very overrated. However I don't agree that level design is bad at all until the last few levels.

That part in Duke's archives was a treat for me. Made you appreciate the messaging system. Only way I found it, and I ignored them for the longest time thinking it was just another fake message to get me to fall to my death.

If anything, I miss parts like that in the modern Souls games. Really made it feel so unique.

Nah, you're pretty damn wrong in most of your assessments OP.

Very poor level design? Dark Souls? Does not compute. It's the best, most interconnected in the series.

Hindsight is an amazing thing isn't it?

I wouldn't say the level design is poor, but I wasn't blown away either even as a huge fan of the series, it was certainly above average though. Compared to other modern games, it looks masterclass because of just how brainless most games were back then, and generally still are from the mainstream. Biggest problem is the game straight up sucks after Anor Londo and it feels worse to play in general, especially with that archaic 4 way movement. As soon as I got my plat from the remaster, I flushed it and went back to DS3.

It's nostalgia. At the time it was revolutionary. The clunky movement didn't matter coming off of DeS. But now BB and DS3 destroy it in terms of combat and overall feel. While the game world felt vast in 2011, coming back to it makes it obvious how tiny the whole thing is. The graphics are pretty shit. And overall the game just has this low budget feel, even more so than Demon's Souls.

An interconnected world is not really the same as level design if we count it per area, and I think it is fair to criticize the game mostly for its latter stages.

Every other Souls game is better than Dark Souls 1 including DS2. It's also the easiest Souls.

What Dark Souls 1 excels at is environment design. Playing Remastered, the real battle is against the clunky controls and movement, not the bosses.

There's nothing "stiff" about the movement, so that comment is baffling as well. Unlike many modern games you get a very tight turn radius, a very fast 180 turn animation, and no contextual animations that prevent you from triggering the 180 turn.

I've been playing MGSV lately and it's giving me a newfound appreciation of the simplicity and (perhaps unrealistic, but I've never seen anybody complain) agility you get in a game like Dark Souls. I'm so sick of not being able to move in the direction I want because a game doesn't happen to include an animation for the specific situation I'm in but won't let me just turn quickly on an axis because that would look bad.

Much118 said:

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 is leagues better in level design. Tomb of Giants: can't see shit and a single misstep and you're dead, same from Crystal Cave. Perhpas I'm being to hyperbolic, but my ponit seems to be proven that this game is put on a pedestal. It can be criticised. Blighttown? Come on, level design is not the best ever in Dark Souls 1.

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At the time, it sure as hell was.

Every time a thread like this created I'm reminded why we got the inferior 2 and 3 games. Too many and close proximity bonfires, more straightforward and linear level design, less weighty and purposeful combat (in 3).

it is one of those games that had to be played around the time it originally came out to be fully appreciated...i agree that the last quarter of the game seems rushed and lacks focus, New Londo/Tomb of the Giants/Izalith could have been much better...but damn, the world itself is an accomplishment on many levels and it has this dark fairy tale like quality where everything is interwoven and loops back on itself.

the movement is Clunky Souls, but after a short time to acclimate it is still second nature...everything has more weight than in the other Souls games, which some people really like! i thought the Remaster was great entertainment and even today there is something about this game that DS2 and 3 lacked.

Demon´s Souls on the other hand beats out Dark Souls by a mile: darker, gloomier, more twisted, faster and ultimately for me the better game because it´s like a blueprint to all the other Souls games including Bloodborne. In every Souls game there are elements of Demon´s Souls, Demon´s Souls is like all Dark Souls entries condensed into one game and the tighter package. But that is my personal opinion.

I do like the art design though. It has this old fairytale look that DS3 mostly eschewed. DS1 would actually be a great game to just remake from the ground up (as well as DeS!).

Not to mention just how easy it is to be overpowered without really trying. I casually speedran the game for fun in a couple hours just picking up the Gravelord Sword and face tanking anything remotely challenging in stoner armor. Poise is so damn stupid in DS1, my SL13 run was surprisingly cakewalk. Don't even have to mention just how busted Pyromancy is if you go that route.

Specifically in regards to Blighttown, I wonder if new players are going in with their wells poisoned. There's so much public negativity around that area, but the reason why it's disliked is apparently fixed in the remaster.

Blighttown is one of my favorite areas in the series when the fps is no longer an issue. I think it's also a tremendous example of video game horror.

Sounds more like you're just upset you died to Seath. I don't know how when considering your complaints because none of Seath's attack require that much maneuvering because he doesn't really do much. Maneuvering that is actually quite smooth so long as you're not locking on. And I really hope you're not locking on to Seath, or any large enemy for that matter.

But the first half of Dark Souls' level design is far more interesting than almost the entirety of Bloodborne's and Dark Souls 3's painfully linear design. Even locations like Blighttown, Tomb of the Giants, and Duke's Archives are not as bad as they're made out to be. Especially Blighttown, which is probably one of the best levels in the game which really only got flack for its performance issues.

If anything, its levels like Blighttown, Sen's Fortress and Tomb of the Giants that make DS1 stand out with its variety of levels that require different approaches, compared to BB and DS3 which scarcely does save for a few locations in their DLC. But none of what these levels demand in terms of their approach doesn't go so far as too be unfair.

In some aspects it is overhyped. However it is hard for me to criticize the first half of the game unless you get stuck in the tomb. (that is bad design if you want to go back). I had to look at a video to discover how to get back from the tomb of giants (wasted 20 hours there).

Unfortunately I lost interest after reaching the second half of the game. I prefer my souls games to be as short as Demons or Bloodborne. Most of the bosses end up having the same pattern (bloodborne had the same problem too).

Once I reached the Archives and the lava place I just continued from the DLC which was amazing. It is a classic but I wish it did not drag on for so long.

Don't agree. Don't even get the "Dark Souls is bad after Anor Londo" meme - it dips for sure, but there are still patches of amazing level design well after Anor Londo.

Amazing game whichever way you look at it.

Much118 said:

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 is leagues better in level design. Tomb of Giants: can't see shit and a single misstep and you're dead, same from Crystal Cave.

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Both of which force you to adapt your strategies instead of Leeroy Jenkins through the entire game. There's at least three items that allow you to cast light and trivialize the Tomb of Gians. Crystal Cave is made much easier by using Prism Stones (for both checking if passage is safe, and marking where it is).

Bloodborne is superior to Dark Souls in almost every way except level design. No other game since or after has such an incredible, varied and interconnected world. Especially not Bloodborne (it wishes it had the interconnectedness and variety of DS) and Dark Souls 3 (which is nearly linear in comparison).

Much118 said:

Perhpas I'm being to hyperbolic, but my ponit seems to be proven that this game is put on a pedestal. It can be criticised. Blighttown? Come on, level design is not the best ever in Dark Souls 1.

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Blightown is a one hundred perfectly fine level design, what the hell are you on? It was shat upon on release because of framerate issues in PS3 and 360, a generation ago, but who plays those now?

Xtortion said:

On a macro level? Sure, it's one of the best. But on a micro (individual area) scale, I'd put it solidly behind Demon's, Bloodborne, and DS3. DS1's areas really didn't wow me at all back in 2011 coming off Demon's.

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Not a fair comparison when Demons Souls areas are entirely independent and don't need to transition into each other, be visible from each other (one of the most incredible things about DS1), or really have any semblance of cohesion. Demons Souls is pretty much a greatest hits collection, which leads to a few, but very memorable, areas. Dark Souls is a whole, and it still manages to have incredibly unique areas.

As for Bloodborne, it wishes it had even one fourth of the variety DS1 has, and I say this as someone who prefers BB to DS1.

Blighttown is great

For me, Souls is as good as exploration and world design. DS1 has the best world design. Bloodborne is close second, but I like BBs lore more so they are both my favourites.

I do not understand why dark souls fans get so... cranky when someone dares to criticize DS1 in any way. Not liking parts of it is legitimate.

It has fine level design in the first half - some of it is even great. But it's not the BEST LEVEL DESIGN OBJECTIVELY EVER. To be honest, compared to good old Ultima Underworld 2, it loses a bit in level design, and I definitely like DS3 and Bloodborne better as well.

But poor? Only a few areas are really poor in DS1, likely due to being rushed. Lost Izalith, Crystal caves, yeah, those are poor. Some are meh, like the tomb of giants (died only once in it, in the "trap" dark room with the ton of skellies, overall just very meh with the lack of light) or the forest. Others are really great, like the whole interconnected Undead Burg -> Depths -> etc and of course Sen's Fortress, the not!Zelda level.

The level design is literally the best aspect of the game lol

I am playing for the first time too,done the DLC and also near the ending game,I don't agree with you,I think the level design is amazing,the only complain I have is the movement is too slow and the animation to drink is an eternity,was a pain to cut Seath the Scaleless's tail,because I miss a lot of attacks because the character is too slow and the boss turn more fast than I can run,but the fight itself is pretty easy,just stand in his front and he will never hit you.I am only surprise how easy the game was for me,the last DLC boss was the only one really hard.Easy one of the best games I played this year.

JudgmentJay said:

It's the best game of all time and the level design is great. The world design and how all the areas fit together is the best in the series. Controls are great. Blighttown is one of the best areas in the game. Lots of post-Lordvessel areas are really good as well. Duke's Archives, Catacombs (I save it for post-Lordvessel at least), Tomb of the Giants, New Londo Ruins, and of course the DLC are all fantastic. The whole "second half is garbage" is nothing short of hyperbolic.

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Not my GOAT but loved the game,the world design is superb indeed,blow my mind several times,but Blighttown is trash (also Crystal Cave and Lost Izalith),I only played Bloodborne and Demon's Souls so far,but the only worst area in these 3 games is Valley of Defilement,I think the second half is better than the first.

JudgmentJay said:

It's the best game of all time and the level design is great.The whole "second half is garbage" is nothing short of hyperbolic.

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I found this funny

If I had played ds3 or bn first too id probably agree. Those games are better despite what most people will tell you.

Xtortion said:

On a macro level? Sure, it's one of the best. But on a micro (individual area) scale, I'd put it solidly behind Demon's, Bloodborne, and DS3. DS1's areas really didn't wow me at all back in 2011 coming off Demon's.

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I agree with this. I think the interconnectivity of Dark Souls is excellent, but in terms of individual stage design I think Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls III have stronger level design overall.

Velocity:Design:Comfort said:

If I had played ds3 or bn first too id probably agree. Those games are better despite what most people will tell you.

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Agreed. The linearity of DS3 is a much welcomed change. I love the scope and scale of the locales in that game.

DS1 has some of the best level design in the series (like the Burg) to some of the worst (like Izalith). The good outweighs the bad by a large amount.

I agree that the game is not as good after Anor Londo. Before that it's fucking perfection. But I disagree about the level design sucking after Anor Londo except for Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith. New Londo is one of my favorite areas in the game because of the atmosphere alone, Duke's Archives was simply great, and even Tomb of Giants is good even if I personally don't like t because of those fucking giant skeleton dog things. Fuck those guys. Lost Izalith is literally the only terrible area in the game. That's why I always avoid it by joining the Chaos Covenant.

I literally cannot comprehend playing Dark Souls II where everything is a linear a-b run that is separate from everything else and half the rooms are filled with 5+ guys who aggro on you all at once and then playing the intricately designed and sublimely paced Dark Souls I and going "man, they really improved upon the level design in this series."

OP is right.

I'm not joking when I say this, but I think a lot of game developers would look at the original Dark Souls in-particular and give anything to have level design and world connectivity of that calibre in their own game.

It's a serious step above any other world design done in gaming for years.

"Dark Souls is bad after Anor Londo" is a joke.

After Anor Londo, the main areas to complete (not including Kiln) are:

Duke's Archives/Crystal Caves
New Londo Ruins
Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants
Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith

Only Lost Izalith is truly bad out of all of those areas, even Demon Ruins isn't terrible (seeing as how tiny it is).

New Londo Ruins is one of the best areas in all of Soulsborne and ends with a fantastic boss and finding the shortcut to the Valley of the Drakes is a fantastic moment. The Duke's Archives is also an example of great level design, with the moving staircases and almost being puzzle like. Getting lost for 45 minutes is crazy. The whole sequence from breaking out of the jail to exploring the archives is fantastic. The Crystal Caves are short, but they also require some amount of brainpower to navigate. The game doesn't hold your hand. Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants are also solid areas, with the former teaching you about how to kill the summoners and the latter being an example of how to do darkness properly in level design.

I'm sorry you feel like the level design is garbage OP, but Dark Souls 1 is still one of the best examples of level design in video games. The only thing that really doesn't hold up in Dark Souls 1 are the easy bosses, the lock-on rolling, Izalith, and the backstab-laden PvP.

Soul of Miyazaki said:

I'm not joking when I say this, but I think a lot of game developers would look at the original Dark Souls in-particular and give anything to have level design and world connectivity of that calibre in their own game.

It's a serious step above any other world design done in gaming for years.

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Prey (2017) is close, but only in terms of how all the levels are connected internally, it doesn't come close to external level-to-level connections.

This must be the first time I hear someone saying that Dark Souls 1 has poor level design, let alone VERY poor. WTF. I think most devs would sell their souls to Devil to be able to make soemthing this good.

You'll have to explain to me why the existence of video tutorials/tips is an argument for why the level design is poor, because that argument appears tragically flawed to me. Plenty (most) players will find their way around that level without any issue. It's not even the most difficult or confusing level to navigate at all.

If you want to criticize the level design of Dark Souls, I'd suggest mentioning better examples, such as Lost Izalith, Lower Burg, or Darkroot Garden/Basin. I could go into details for why these levels are mediocre, but I would never use the existence of helpful videos as argument, lol.

People always remember the brilliance of the burg, parish, darkroot, sen's, and blighttown. The second half of the game is legit shitty in a lot of spots. This is not new criticism but somehow the fondness of the first half overwhelms the second half. I guess 10/10 balances with a 6/10 to be an 8. Though new Londo is good.

Smash-It Stan said:

I agree, the game stops being fun right after Anor Londo, literally every level sucks after that and you have to go through them in a certain order. Before hand you could visit any place at any time, but you can't go through the catacombs/tomb of giants without the sunlight bug, and you can't fight the 4 kings without having a special ring on that the game never tells you about.

You'd probably like Dark Souls 2 better, it doesn't even attempt to make the world coherent or connected so it's not really an issue if the game itself doesn't care.

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This is completely untrue. You can tackle the back half of the game in a number of different ways.

Much118 said:

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 is leagues better in level design. Tomb of Giants: can't see shit and a single misstep and you're dead, same from Crystal Cave. Perhpas I'm being to hyperbolic, but my ponit seems to be proven that this game is put on a pedestal. It can be criticised. Blighttown? Come on, level design is not the best ever in Dark Souls 1.

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...but that's why totg is fun....

Like everything you just said about it is on purpose. Some of us enjoy that and we're disappointed by how easy later game's level design were. Like, it kinda gets boring when only the enemies are hard. Having the level design be hard makes things more interesting. Totg was the most scared I've ever been in a dark souls game, and I loved that.

It's not poor. It just wasn't your thing.

Playing through Blighttown for the first time is one of the best experiences I ever had in gaming.

OP I'm onboard. I don't hold DS on some pedestal as much as others. I greatly prefer 2 or 3 over it.

It has things in which It is the best of the three and things in which it is the worst.

Dark Souls isn't a perfect game. But, it excels so greatly in certain areas that I simply cannot see it as anything other than a flawed masterpiece.

Yes, the game falls after the second half of the game yet most of your time you will be playing the first half.

Custódio said:

Playing through Blighttown for the first time is one of the best experiences I ever had in gaming.

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Yup. I'm so glad the framerate didn't bother me. I think a lot of people unknowingly hate it due to the framerate issues.

Blighttown is one of the most gripping experiences I've ever had in a video game. None of the poison levels in the other games even come close.

Blighttown is what I think of when I think "Dark Souls." It's what made me associate bonfires with warmth and safety. It made me feel so far away from home in Firelink Shrine. It made me get serious about the game, and it's during that time that I began obsessively thinking about the game every waking moment.