This must be the first time I hear someone saying that Dark Souls 1 has poor level design, let alone VERY poor. WTF. I think most devs would sell their souls to Devil to be able to make soemthing this good.
Sorry, I meant after Anor Londo.
This must be the first time I hear someone saying that Dark Souls 1 has poor level design, let alone VERY poor. WTF. I think most devs would sell their souls to Devil to be able to make soemthing this good.
Yup. I'm so glad the framerate didn't bother me. I think a lot of people unknowingly hate it due to the framerate issues.
Blighttown is what I think of when I think "Dark Souls." It's what made me associate bonfires with warmth and safety. It made me feel so far away from home in Firelink Shrine. It made me get serious about the game, and it's during that time that I began obsessively thinking about the game every waking moment.
This must be the first time I hear someone saying that Dark Souls 1 has poor level design, let alone VERY poor. WTF. I think most devs would sell their souls to Devil to be able to make soemthing this good.
That's possible. I played the first time on PC, and although it wasn't locked 60, it wasn't a mess either.
Imagine thinking Dark Souls had poor level design. Imagine what state your mind must be in to think that.
Eh. I think New Londo Ruins, Painted World, Catacombs, Tomb of the Giants, and Duke's Archives are muuuuuch better levels than Undead Burg and Darkroot. In fact, the first three I just named are among my favourite levels in the whole game.People always remember the brilliance of the burg, parish, darkroot, sen's, and blighttown. The second half of the game is legit shitty in a lot of spots.
Thanks for your input, it didn't really add to the discussion. I appreciate other posts since it's changing my mind quite well. Just quite frustrated with the last quarter.
Video viewcounts have no barring on the quality of the game. Case in point, here's a video on how to get your first weapon in Bloodborne. With 33,000 views.
To be fair, it isn't that uncommon to not notice the weapons there and continue playing without them.
Man that's so crazy to me though. First thing I always do in a hub world is explore the hub.
I think you are going to be unique with that Duke's Archives mention. The Undead Burg and Parish are so awe inspiring to a new player. Duke's Archives are fatiguing to any existing player. I hate them. :DEh. I think New Londo Ruins, Painted World, Catacombs, Tomb of the Giants, and Duke's Archives are muuuuuch better levels than Undead Burg and Darkroot. In fact, the first three I just named are among my favourite levels in the whole game.
In fact I think Darkroot is one of the worst levels in the game. It's nice how it's all interconnected but it's a flat-out chore to go through. The hydra area in particular is a big slog.
The "second half of the game sucks" meme needs to die, tbh. Only the Demon Ruins -> Lost Izalith stretch is significantly worse than the first half.
My point is that going by the OPs logic the level design of the begining is poor. There's identical videos to what their talking about for bloodborne. How to get to the Forbidden Woods has 168,000 view, Cainhurst Castle 324,000, etc. Its just the nature of the Souls games.To be fair, it isn't that uncommon to not notice the weapons there and continue playing without them.
I think you are going to be unique with that Duke's Archives mention. The Undead Burg and Parish are so awe inspiring to a new player. Duke's Archives are fatiguing to any existing player. I hate them. :D
Yeah it kind of is, but I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Sometimes people just miss these right in front of them, I've had some ladders elude me before lol.
wat..I mean how what a terrible take. I don't understand how you have to spend that long to find your way to the next bonfire. That's not indicative of poor design, that's just poor gameplayI spent nearly 45 minutes in the Duke Archives trying to find my way, and the fact that you have videos online with tens of thousands of views on how to reach a bonfire or next location is truly telling of how poor the level design is.
You can run circles around the dude. Seath is one of the easiest bosses. I've never been cursed in Dark Souls. You have to go out of your way to let the bar the fill up till you're cursed.As for combat, it's not all bad. It can be somewhat fun if it plays in your favour and you near the end with stronger weapons, but half the time I feel as though I've been crippled tremendously. Let's use Seath the Scaleless for instance. The boss room is rather large, but so is the boss as he fills the majority of the room. Now, try to move around this boss who fills the majority of the room and also dodge his attacks which fill the majority of the room. It's hard to do so when player movement is so damn stiff. I really don't want to mention the part of Dark Souls where, upon dying to a curse, you are permanently at half health until you cure yourself with a purging stone, that which costs souls (you just lost these in a boss room).
I mean really...You're gonna stop in the one area that's filled with bones and skulls in a level that has respawning skeletons, necromancers etc. and then get mad cause you couldn't stop to sip some orange juice?EDIT: Oh yeah, worst of all: the stopping to sip some orange juice and getting pinwheeled the fuck out of enemies.. -_-
Listen, OP isn't wrong by saying the game goes downhill after Anor Londo.
Ladders are fair. I've missed really obvious stuff before too. I just can't imagine missing a shiny. Video games have trained me to be hyper aware of shinies.
You can run circles around the dude. Seath is one of the easiest bosses. I've never been cursed in Dark Souls. You have to go out of your way to let the bar the fill up till you're cursed.
Hmm. You have a point. See, I haven't been a "new player" in so long, for me, the Burg is just eh, a tiny-ass area where, even if you are completist and kill/loot everything, is over in a few minutes, whereas the Dukes' Archives is still challenging and kinda cool.I think you are going to be unique with that Duke's Archives mention. The Undead Burg and Parish are so awe inspiring to a new player. Duke's Archives are fatiguing to any existing player. I hate them. :D
Yes, that's the part I had in mind. You're right that the mandatory death is bullshit, and the boars are annoying.That main rooms with the rotating staircases, though? That's pretty good. That's the closest the back half of the game gets to the best design principles of the first half.
THANK YOU. I've said it's great before hand, but it goes downhill drastically afterwards.
This for sure I like a lot of those later areas. It's really just those two that are a step down compared to the rest.Eh. I think New Londo Ruins, Painted World, Catacombs, Tomb of the Giants, and Duke's Archives are muuuuuch better levels than Undead Burg and Darkroot. In fact, the first three I just named are among my favourite levels in the whole game.
In fact I think Darkroot is one of the worst levels in the game. It's nice how it's all interconnected but it's a flat-out chore to go through. The hydra area in particular is a big slog.
The "second half of the game sucks" meme needs to die, tbh. Only the Demon Ruins -> Lost Izalith stretch is significantly worse than the first half.
New Londo, Catacombs and Painted World are better than anything up to Anor Londo. >.>This isn't even a controversial point, it's pretty much widely accepted that the back-half of the game is just not of the same quality as the first (everything up to Anor Londo).
On the second half of the game: I'm on the team that believes it doesn't live up to the first half, but I'd like to explain why as well.
It's not because the first areas connect to each other and make a cohesive, "believable" world, but because their level design is much more refined overall. Undead Burg, Blighttown, Sen's Fortress, The Catacombs, The Depths, and even Darkroot Forest/Basin and Northern Undead Asylum all loop into themselves in a way that makes players feel some sort of relief and familiarity when they are walking through an unexplored corridor only to find a room they already cleared. It's like going down the stairs on the bridge with the red drake and discovering a ladder you can kick down to the Undead Burg bonfire, or activating the elevator in the Undead Parish and finding yourself back in Firelink Shrine. This sort of design is pretty much lost in the second half, except for New Londo Ruins, Tomb of the Giants (which are areas that you can explore before even sounding the bells) and Painted World of Ariamis (which is optional). Hell, I'd even go as far as saying that The Great Hollow, another optional area that most player might not even know of when they finish the game, has a better design than most of the second half. But hey, I think it's time to focus on the areas I think are not as good.
Anor Londo: A bunch of straight corridors with almost no alternative paths or interconnectedness. Sure, there's a shortcut and some genuinely good sections such as crossing the beams in the painting room and running past the archers, but you can feel that the quality of the level design has decreased from previously explored areas.
The Duke's Archives: It's essentially two bigger rooms with multiple levels and staircases you can turn, a linear prison tower, a handful little rooms and a courtyard. No shortcuts, barely anything to encourage exploration.
Crystal Cave: A few narrow walkways. Some visible, some not. Moonlight Butterfly gets reused three times here. A wider area near the end with the crab enemies we will also see in Ash Lake, and the boss arena.
Demon Ruins: A joke of a boss followed by a wide but barren area that features environmental hazards and recycles the shit out of Taurus Demon and Capra Demon, features two new enemies but then recycles the Asylum Demon for the second time. There are some items hidden here and there, and you can find an elevator that takes you back to Quelaag's Domain, which is nice, or go down the stairs and find the actual boss of the area. If you ranked up enough with Chaos Servant covenant, you can unlock a shortcut to the next area, which is also nice. Oh, and here you can notice textures repeating so much that walls look like a pattern.
Lost Izalith: Oh, man. I don't think there's anything capable of redeeming this area, not even the barely hidden items. More enemies get recycled, more rushed texture work, and this area's boss is something that has to be experienced since no words can really make justice to how bad it is.
None of these areas have the intricacy of the game's first half, they're all very linear and feature little to no alternate paths or optional rooms. I won't comment on Ash Lake because it would be unfair to judge a linear optional area on the same terms as mandatory ones. I also don't think that it's bad that Tomb, the Abyss, Lost Izalith and Crystal Cave are dead ends because that adds a sense of finality to them.
This isn't even a controversial point, it's pretty much widely accepted that the back-half of the game is just not of the same quality as the first (everything up to Anor Londo). Hell, we still shit on the Demon Ruins and the Bed of Choas.
Dark Souls 3 is the best IMO. Did you say you haven't played DS2? Because, I'd love to hear your opinion on that game.
I feel you OP, and find kind of hilarious those "But it's supposed to be that way!" replies
From must be the only Studio in the World that gets away with Poor design. They struck gold releasing DS in the era of extreme handholding.
And let's not forget all those out of nowhere cheap deaths you're supposed to be able to foresee because fuck you, Git gud
New Londo, Catacombs and Painted World are better than anything up to Anor Londo. >.>
Painted World isn't DLC, also, "cancer"? e_e