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Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,537
If you want another show with people scheming, and banging, and fighting with swords, I recommend The Last Kingdom on Netflix.



I'd seriously recommend The Last Kingdom to you, as well, OP—and so would George R.R. Martin!

But really, if you want more Game of Thrones, I can't overstate how much you should read the books. In most ways, they're absolute masterpieces, and the writing is incomparably higher quality than the show's. There's a veritable mountain of high-quality fan essays and examinations of them, their themes, and future speculation as well, if you're still wanting afterwards.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,424
Phoenix, AZ
Calm down with the hyperbolic nonsense. You're shitting on a show for dumb action shit.. while rocking a dumb action movie avatar. If you want to name them, put them down. I've read the GoT threads regularly and most issues is cringe inducing arm chair writers who make certain situations seem far worse than they really are.

GOT threads (mainly the book ones) were the absolute worst place to discuss any kind of fandom on the old forum, even worse than the TLJ threads here. Some of them made hate-watching look like a work of art, getting off on each other's pessimism.
 

Gigglepoo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,317
Jon and Ygritte made for a good couple, but then the actors liked each other well enough to get married. The current pairing just is a jarring experience in contrast, especially with how hard the show is pushing their romance.

I mean, the Ygritte romance was pulled from the books, like just about everything good in the show. D&D had to write Jon + Dany so it's no wonder it turned out bad.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,992
Jon and Ygritte made for a good couple, but then the actors liked each other well enough to get married. The current pairing just is a jarring experience in contrast, especially with how hard the show is pushing their romance.

I was overly harsh, both actors do fine in many scenes, but they aren't the best and their chemistry together is non-existent.

Jon and Ygritte had some fire at least, I could buy it.
 

Dragoon

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
11,231
GOT threads (mainly the book ones) were the absolute worst place to discuss any kind of fandom on the old forum, even worse than the TLJ threads here. Some of them made hate-watching look like a work of art, getting off on each other's pessimism.
I was mostly talking about the tv show one. A song of ice and fire has the worst fandom of any book series. And the most cringe-inducing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,752
Arizona
MgHRUPP.gif


This is where Game of Thrones died.
Yeah, I didn't like this scene either
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,574
GOT threads (mainly the book ones) were the absolute worst place to discuss any kind of fandom on the old forum, even worse than the TLJ threads here. Some of them made hate-watching look like a work of art, getting off on each other's pessimism.
Those threads were no where near as you made out to be.

Of course people, as fans of the books, were going to be more cynical. But we were able to discuss things pretty fairly. Plot holes were called out, we praised the high points of the recent seasons and speculated on which aspects of the recent books should not have been cut out on.
 

The Nightsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,543
Yup. The last couple of seasons of GoT have pretty much ruined other televion for me. It's a high bar that I don't think anything else will reach in a looooong time.
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,574
There a LOT of mind-numbingly stupid shit in the recent seasons of the show - it's odd people are trying to handwave it all away as overly critical.

Man for example that scene of Arya following Littlefinger in Winterfell, only for it to have been a trap laid by Littlefinger who watched from the shadows. Damn cringe inducing stuff.
 

Maven

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,076
Earth
Since game of thrones went into turbo mode, it's just not the same

Will watch the last season, but i'm like whatever
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Those threads were no where near as you made out to be.

Of course people, as fans of the books, were going to be more cynical. But we were able to discuss things pretty fairly. Plot holes were called out, we praised the high points of the recent seasons and speculated on which aspects of the recent books should not have been cut out on.

The TV watcher thread was fine, the book reader thread was absolutely terrible because it was filled with people so bitter and seemingly hate watching the show.
 

Feral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,006
Your Mom
There a LOT of mind-numbingly stupid shit in the recent seasons of the show - it's odd people are trying to handwave it all away as overly critical.

Man for example that scene of Arya following Littlefinger in Winterfell, only for it to have been a trap laid by Littlefinger who watched from the shadows. Damn cringe inducing stuff.
that's just the usual S7 silliness. I think it's generally accepted (at least by part of the fandom) that S5 was when the series first very noticably dibbed in quality, then momentarily recovered with some of the episodes in S6, then S7 arrived and everyone was like lol ok whatever let's just ride this out to the end
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,202
If you're into that kind of thing you can try watching people watch GOT for the first time. This couple just finished Episode 7 of Season 1 and it's pretty entertaining. They aren't overly talky or being annoyingly fake with their wide mouthed reactions (despite the thumbnail being a wide mouth freeze frame). I'm curious how the woman is going to react to certain death scenes because she's already literally cried when Lady was killed.



It's funny how nearly all newcomers tend to think Dany's name is Khaleesi. I blame Jorah.
 

Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
You think you have it bad OP?! I've been rewatching it non stop since February. I'm starting season 7 again. Gonna play some Skyrim later to clear my mind.
 

Deleted member 35011

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
2,185
I miss it and don't at the same time - like, I understand that the writers have to wrap up a show with almost no reference material anymore to go off, but the show has stopped feeling like the books a while ago and I really loved the books. At the same time, I don't think we'll ever really get more books so it will be a sort of bittersweet conclusion to me haha. Not that the show has been bad lately - far from it, but the tone has definitely shifted from the books and early seasons and that kinda bums me out. Still, I'm excited for the last season.
 
OP
OP
Hobbesian Thudercat
Nov 2, 2017
3,723
i think game of zones is a better show


That shit is way better than it has any right to be. The only reason I haven't binged the whole thing yet is because I haven't had cable tv for the passed few years, so I haven't been able to follow as much of the NBA as I used to.

It's definitely on my list of things to catch up on though.

I made a thread here and it got, zero, attention, much to my surprise. Much not be a lot of basketball fans here.

that's just the usual S7 silliness. I think it's generally accepted (at least by part of the fandom) that S5 was when the series first very noticably dibbed in quality, then momentarily recovered with some of the episodes in S6, then S7 arrived and everyone was like lol ok whatever let's just ride this out to the end

This is pretty much a bullseye in regards to how I feel about the whole thing.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Season 6 is one of the best seasons, people are hating. 5 just had that fucking awful scene -_- but was still very good. Season 7 had some great moments but fell far too much into Hollywood shit. Worst season by some distance. Still good, but nowhere near the level it used to be.

Saying that, totally agree. I need season 8 stat!!

Also, fuck Cersei. I'm going to enjoy when she has a miserable death.

Aside from episode 9 and 10, what was so amazing about Season 6?
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
While 2 and 3 were good, I miss season 1- still the only season that can be considered a GOAT masterpiece.

The other 4 seasons are carrying degrees of terrible to mediocre though, yeah.
I mean, I can understand persisting with a show for a couple of weak seasons, but why on earth would you watch 40-ish hours of "terrible to mediocre" TV? Just read a Wikipedia plot summary if you need closure.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,035
Calm down with the hyperbolic nonsense. You're shitting on a show for dumb action shit.. while rocking a dumb action movie avatar. If you want to name them, put them down. I've read the GoT threads regularly and most issues is cringe inducing arm chair writers who make certain situations seem far worse than they really are.

And? When I want dumb action, I watch dumb action. I don't watch or read Game of Thrones for dumb action. But, if you really want me to go there then hold on to your butt. LET'S GOOOOOO:

First, to start, a very good blog piece was written by Youtuber MrbTongue regarding Season 5 and 6 and how they went completely off the rails, covering many of the points I will. I suggest you read it here:
https://shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=37075

But, let's start:

Jon Snow's Resurrection

-This is one of those things that is so bad that it hurts the entire show, nothing about it and the people's reaction both before and afterwards make a lick of sense. It's classic D&D writing. I'm not talking about the damn magic, I'm talking the actual situation. First, let's put aside the complete nonsense that was Jon's stabbing from last season, you wanted to focus on Season 6 so I'll do just that. I won't even bring up how amazingly dumb Jon's actual mutiny/assassination is, let's solely focus on the aftermath. So first off, neither Aliser Thorne or any of the cohorts think to bury or preferably burn Jon's body. I remind you these are Night's Watchmen who have first hand account of the White Walkers and Wights rising from the dead. In fact, Jon has just come from a battle in which the remaining Wildlings were wiped out by the WW's and their Army of the Dead. As a result, they should be weary of leaving any recently deceased bodies just lying around. Instead, they just let Jon's body rot in the snow. Things only get more dumb.

So, right afterwards Dolorous Edd and Ser Davos find Jon's body and bring him inside one of the rooms within Castle Black, propping him up on a table in ritualistic fashion. Why? Again, this makes no sense. Jon is dead. While this is sad, it doesn't make any sense why they are treating his body like the body of Christ. No one discusses burning his body or burying him or conducting proper funeral rights. They all just express utter disbelief while keeping his body perfectly in tact and on display. Suddenly, Ser Davos takes charge and shows real grief and commitment to this lifeless corpse. I should remind you that Ser Davos barely knows Jon Snow. They've had about one meaningful interaction when Stannis' party stayed in Castle Black and Davos is not a member of the Night's Watch. Now suddenly, Davos cannot believe such a virtuous man could die, as if he's special, and starts giving orders despite, again, not being a member of the Watch. Eventually he decides to turn to Melisandre to ask her if she can do anything, this being despite the fact that HUNDREDS of people have died in front of Davos with Melisandre present, people closer to Davos than Jon Snow, yet he never asks her then if she can raise the dead. Not even for his own son. I should further remind you that Davos has no knowledge of Ser Beric Dondarrion rising from the dead. He just inexplicably decides that Melisandre must be able to raise the dead and that she must do it on Jon Snow.

Alright, so Melisandre raises Jon Snow from the dead, well then how does everyone react to this AMAZING feat? With the equivalent of a wet fart. To quote MrBTongue:

Game of Throne Griping Part 4 said:
Immediately after his resurrection, a couple characters get to express… well, if not shock, at least mild bewilderment at the fact that Jon is alive. Davos gives him a short "this is weird, but let's get on with it" refresher, and then Edd notices that Jon's eyes aren't blue (so at least he's not a wight). Then Tormund makes a joke about his penis.

And that's it. That is more or less the last time that what should be a miraculous event is ever mentioned by anyone. Later, Jon, Sansa, and Davos seek the military support of several northern lords. If any of these lords are unsettled by the fact that they're talking to Westorosi Jesus, they certainly hide it well, and it never comes up in any of their conversations. Do they care? Do they even know? It's not like it was a secret. Anyone who could wander into the courtyard at Castle Black would have witnessed, firsthand, Jon Snow being turned into a human pincushion and then walking around none the worse for wear a short while later.

Jon Snow should be worshiped as a GOD by everyone who witnessed this event. When Beric came back to life all of his band became adamant followers of the Lord of Light and worshiped fervently the Red God as one would expect after witnessing the resurrection of a dead man. You see, in real life there once was a story about some guy coming back to life after being crucified and that ended spawning a global religion. Yet, no one seems to treat Jon any differently after his miraculous rebirth. But enough of Jon Snow, we have more stupidity to cover.

The False Badassery of Ramsay Snow

Now, after the deaths of Joffrey and Tywin Lannister, D&D needed a new villain for everyone to love to hate. And thus they decided to promote Ramsay Snow to this new level of main, badass antagonist. Except whereas Joffrey and Tywin's actions were logical within their world, a trait which added tension and organic plot growth. Ramsay Snow doesn't make a lick of sense as D&D repeatedly try to build him up as "bad ass" and "unstoppable" by completely breaking the logic of the world and any and all consequences of his actions. Again, let me not bring up S5's, "give me 20 good men to defeat the most seasoned military leader in all of Westeros." Instead, I will again only focus on Season 6. Ramsay Snow starts off the season early by murdering his own father right in front of Lord Karstark. *sigh* I know D&D want watchers to think this is just a nihilistic world where murder and brute force is the only way to climb up the ladder, but that is not the case. Westeros, like Feudal Europe, has rules and customs hard-coded into its society. And, the NUMBER ONE taboo above all else is the Act of Kinslaying. A son cannot kill a father, a brother cannot kill a bother or sister, and all other such combinations. The taboo against kinslaying is so hard-coded that it does not matter how bad such a family member has wronged you, kinslaying is still viewed as a negative. And, in the North, we're the Rule of the First Men is still strong, these laws are even MORE SACRED AND IMPORTANT. So, Ramsay Snow, a bastard, killing his Noble Father directly in front of another Noble Lord is pretty much the greatest crime you could possibly commit in the North. It's Red Wedding levels bad.

Now, how does Lord Karstark react to this? Well, he shrugs and doesn't give a fuck, pledging to support Ramsay Snow, a bastard. And, none of the other Northern Lords or even Roose Bolton's own men seek to oppose this either. They all seem completely fine by the obvious lie that Roose Bolton was poisoned or whatever and not the obvious fact that Ramsay killed him. And, the fact that his high born adopted mother and half-brother were mauled to death by dogs shortly after doesn't bother them either. WHAT. THE. FUCK? This is the North; even in the South such crimes would not go overlooked, but the North? THE NORTH?!?!?!?!

Ramsay Snow is only propped up as an antagonist because he is able to just shirk his finger at all rules and consequences previously setup in the world. If the show says you can't breathe underwater, Ramsay Snow will be shown to dive in headfirst and mouth open with his middle fingers pumping in the air. No rules apply to him.

The False Badassery of Daenerys

I'll make this one real short, they once again needed Daenerys to be shown as a total badass, Fire and Blood, wooooooooo! So, how does she escape the Dothraki? Oh, by burning to the ground their most holy sacred site. A site where no weapons are permitted in a culture that is all about violence, that's how sacred it is. She burns these men all to the ground in their most holy site, a site that is the collection of all the various faiths around. You see the Dothraki drag all the religious idols from other cultures through conquest to this site, so the site doesn't just hold the Dothraki Gods, but all the Gods of the people in their horde and more. Yet, what is everyone's response to this heinous act? Oh simple, to bow down to the Dragon Queen. I mean why should they be bothered that she burnt a Holy Temple containing their Gods to the ground. Shit, for that matter, who cares that Cercei blew up the Great Sept of Baelor and everyone within it including the High Sparrow?

The Stupidity of Dorne and the Iron Islands; Kinslaying Means Nothing

Last season was when we were finally introduced to Dorne proper and soon after wished they never included it in the first place. Well, D&D got your message and took it to heart, a bit too literally. They decide to start this Dorne plot off by having Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes murder Doran Martell (stabbing him in the heart) and his entire noble retinue. Okay, let me remind you one final time, KINSLAYING IS THE MOST TERRIBLE CRIME IN WESTEROS. Ellaria Sand murders, who is in effect, her brother-in-law, while the Sand Snakes murder their own cousin along with Myrcella Lannister, both also considered "children." And, this is apparently totally okay with everyone in Dorne. Let me also remind you that Ellaria's last name is "Sand" meaning that she is a bastard. Now, not only did she kill the Highborn Lord of the Dornish Marches, but she did so as a bastard. While Dorne doesn't stigmatize bastards as much as the rest of Westeros, they are still viewed as lower and do not inherit the same way natural-born noble children do. Why would ANY noble House follow Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes after they (A) committed kin-slaying and (B) are led by a no-name bastard? Well, I have no clue because the show never tells us why. We just accept that Ellaria Sand is ruler of all of Dorne now because that's how you get to the top, you just murder the person in front of you no matter how highborn they may be.

Let's move to the Iron Islands now where book fan favorite Euron Greyjoy finally makes an appearance, only to be revealed as the equivalent of Ramsay Snow. A "false badass" only propped up by the fact that they succeed because the rules do not apply to them. Euron makes his appearance by killing his brother, Balon Greyjoy, Lord of the Iron Islands. A deed he freely admits to all the Nobles and Lords of the Iron Islands. And, despite the Iron Islands being just as rigid as the North when it comes to the rules against kinslaying, no one seems to care. Instead, they crown Euron Greyjoy King after he suggests the bold and innovative solution to all their problems, BUILD. MORE. SHIPS. Which no one seems to ask the important question, "with what?" They are called the Iron Islands for a reason, very few trees exist on them and ships don't sprout out of the Drowned Gods tentacles. What did he think all the Ironborn were doing while he was away, not building ships to fight this massive war? The War of the Five Kings has utterly ravished the land, especially in the Riverlands and the North (the areas closest to the Iron Islands), there should be no goddamn trees left to build anything with. Yet, for his brilliant solution he's crowned King. But, his stupidity isn't entirely complete because as his first act of King he orders that his niece and nephew be murdered, again an open act of kinslaying which everyone cheers to.

*facepalm*

Arya and the House of Dumb and Dumber

Arya used her coin to gain access to the House of Black and White to become an assassin under the watch of "Ja'qen H'gar." Yet, for some reason a character known as the Waif hates her for some reason despite it going against everything the Order is about. Arya keeps training until she decides not to follow the thing an assassin is supposed to do, kill on contract. For this crime she is marked for death by Ja'qen and the Waif gleefully takes up the task. Of course, being the trained faceless assassin that she is, she decides the best means to assassinate Arya is to just walk up behind her and stab her in the gut a few times. Because, as a trained assassin, she knows the most efficient and sure fire way to kill someone is to stab them in the gut. Afterwards, she decides to hunt down Arya in broad daylight without any attempt at disguise as if some kind of stupid Terminator until Arya eventually gets the drop on her and kills her. And, for this great deed Ja'qen H'gar, faithful servant of the House of Black and White, faceless assassin, smiles and allows her to leave freely with all her assassin training and knowledge of how to take the faces of other people to do with however she pleases. I mean, why the fuck not at this point?

The Battle of the Bastards and The North Forgets

Everyone loves the BotB for some reason, I just see it as a further extension of the show's stupidity and reliance on Hollywood action as it too doesn't make a lick of sense. Let's backtrack to the setup, Jon Snow and Sansa go hat in hand around to the noble lords of the North asking for their support against Ramsay Snow. Now, if it were just Jon Snow going alone it wouldn't be entirely without the realm of possibility for them to deny him. He's a bastard and a turncoat of the Night's Watch, an Oathbreaker. But, he's with Sansa Stark, a true born daughter of Ned Stark, and so far as they know, the last living heir to Winterfell. Even if you want to totally throw away any loyalty these Houses may have to the Starks whom they are bound by oath to support, what idiot Lord would pass up the opportunity to take Winterfell for himself by marrying Sansa Stark? Yes, she's married to Ramsay Snow, but in a show where all the rules don't apply, why not tell her to pledge herself to you in exchange for killing her husband and her marrying them. Then that House could rule Winterfell through her for the rest of their ages. None of them seem to think in political terms so such a solution is never brought up. But wait, things get even stupider when it's revealed that Rickon Stark is alive and Ramsay Snow goes parading him around the whole camp. Again, Rickon as the male heir of Eddard Stark, would be the true heir of Winterfell, that means Ramsay's claim to the Hold is useless with Rickon alive. And, it means all the Northern Houses owe their support to Rickon. But again, none of this is brought up. Rickon is shot in the back with an arrow at the start of the battle as all the Lords laugh on. Laughing at the murder of their liege lord. We in D&D territory proper now.

So, let's start the nonsensical battle where foolish Jon Snow falls for the obvious aforementioned trap. But, also one in which Davos somehow becomes a military commander despite having zero experience in such an affair. Yet, let's side step that and look at the actual tactics each side displays. Well...neither side has any. They just mash together in the middle and hack away at each other. No archers are properly used by either side, cavalry appears at the start only to be immediately dispensed with, no discipline, no formations, no actual plan. It's just a slaughter for no real reason, despite Jon Snow telling everyone he had a plan and Davos mouthing like they have some sort of strategy. And then, just before all hope appears to be lost, the stupidest thing in the world happens. The Vale arrives with reinforcements from The Eyrie.

Yes, that's right. Somehow the Vale managed to march their forces outside of The Eyrie, past the Twins controlled by the Lannisters and Freys, up the swap infested Neck, past Moat Cailin controlled by the Boltons, and over the White Knife river to get the drop on Ramsay Snow and all his Northern Forces. Boy, I remember a whole season where Robb Stark had to negotiate passage over a bridge because the movement of armies wasn't such a simple thing in earlier seasons since different Houses controlled certain key strategic points. I wonder whatever happened to that?

Miscellaneous Complaining
-Varys travels from Mereen to Sunspear in Dorne to meet with the kinslaying Sand Snakes to gain their support such that he can sail back to Mereen just in time to be on the ship as Daenerys sails back to Westeros.
-No one seems to react to Gregor Clegane coming back from the dead.
-Tommen removes Jaime from the Kingsguard despite it being a lifetime appointment and despite it already looking bad when they removed Ser Barristan Selmy and the Hound quit. Better to further tarnish the Kingsguard.
-Despite all the "politicking" Daenerys solves the dispute in Mereen by just burning everyone in her way. Again, brute force and violence is the only solution to any problem in this show.
-Brynden Tully, the Blackfish, refuses to aid his own niece and dies like a wimp off-screen.

I could actually go on.
 
Last edited:

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,807
Canada
I mean, I can understand persisting with a show for a couple of weak seasons, but why on earth would you watch 40-ish hours of "terrible to mediocre" TV? Just read a Wikipedia plot summary if you need closure.

Its a cultural zeitgeist, I watch very few shows anyways that watching Game of Thrones is but a pittance to hate watch, and finally as a book reader I do want closure because Martin may not end up delivering it.
 

fade

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
Start reading A Feast For Crows. You'll have those batteries recharged in no time.
 

gesicht

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
Been missing GoT since the Red Wedding.

Start reading A Feast For Crows. You'll have those batteries recharged in no time.

Wait. Isn't AFFC the one where the story effectively stops because everyone's just road tripping around Westeros? I think one could safely skip that book altogether.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,640
I'm not really excited for the new season tbh. Wish the time where fighting over the throne and politics were the prevalent theme in the show and anything could happen.

4 as well. 5 was shit, 6 was was decent while 7 turned into a long action movie with plot holes everywhere.
6 was only decent because 5 was terrible, so expectations were at an all time low. I sort of expect the same to happen with 8.
 
Oct 25, 2017
90
I miss Game of Thrones seasons 1-3 levels of quality.

The writing isn't on par with those earlier seasons for obvious reasons, but it's still fine. What I do miss the absolute most is seeing a scene in Game of Thrones without music playing. Holy shit did they abuse the music in this last season, and I don't mean it in the S6 Ep10 sense 'cause that was brilliant. It just felt like the score was playing throughout eeeeeeverything in S7. I'd probably have to go back and watch the first few seasons, but I don't remember it being like that all that time.
 

Holden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
110
Season 6 and Battle of the bastards was garbage

Jon Snow doesn't grow as a character he falls into ramsay trap like a dumbass
Sansa doesn't inform jonsnow about little fingers army
Ramsay is supposed to be a very smart person and you are gonna tell me he doesn't have scouts about the Eyrie's army?
"You haven't fed them in seven days, you said it yourself." said by sansa even though she had no clue about that.

The show makes such a deal about jaime Lannister being "The Kingslayer" and you got 3 kings getting killed in the same episode and nobody gives a fuck.

Everything related to sam and gilly is total trash and not interesting

Arya returns in season 7 to rival in "powerlevel" arguably the strongest knight Brienne even though it felt like shit didn't learn shit during season 6
 

Moara

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,885
Season 2 wasn't that good and Season 6 is one of the best seasons of the show.
 

Joyful

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
503
the last season is going to be a trainwreck probably
hopefully an entertaining one
 

Deleted member 3897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,638
"This is one of the worst shows on TV, almost everything has gone downhill since season 3, terrible writing, terrible pacing, bland and forgettable stuff everywhere, what a bad/mediocre show"
*Continues watching it while complaining how bad the show has gotten*

Some of you have really a lot of spare time if you continue to watch shows that you think are so bad/mediocre/forgettable. I really don't get hate-watching.