In This Economy, Quitters Are Winning (WSJ)

I was at my old job for 2 years didn't get a raise or anything with good performance evaluations. I quit without having a job, landed a new job in three weeks and my base pay was 20k more than I was making plus additional bonus potential to get me to almost double the salary. It just doesn't pay to stay with a company for a long time anymore. Those hoes ain't loyal.

Chamaeleonx said:

It benefits companies, they save money and general resources this way. After all, a worker is for them just a tool they can easily replace. You might quit but they can find someone else to do most of the easier/low effort jobs.

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I mean, I think it differs depending on the type of job, especially the easily replace part. Some may take a long time to ramp up a new comer, and a lot of times it'll take months to fill the position. At what point is it more valuable to just give a raise?

I understand that lower paying jobs wouldn't give out raises and just keep looking for more (though recently it's looking like even they are having a tough time filling positions), but to me it's crazy how companies would rather pay a new comer more money than give a raise. That's why it's more valuable to job hop.

MudoSkills said:

As a Brit I find it weird that two weeks notice is standard for most jobs across the US. I'm on a month in my current job and was on three months before coming here - in that timeframe I was absolutely in a position to quit and line something else up before my notice was through.

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It's one of those dumb traditions people follow even though it serves them no benefit and it's not mandatory.

People can be fired on the spot but for some reason they feel the need to give a company 2 weeks notice if they want to quit?

People realized that you make more money by switching jobs than by sticking with the same job and getting raises once every blue moon.

And yes 2 weeks notice is purely a pro-employer custom, however since the power balance between the employer and employee is generally so tilted in favour of the employer that people basically have to do it.

This thread made me want to see by how much I increased my salary.
A bit of context: graduated 5 years ago, been employed ever since and changed job 3 times (stayed in the first one for almost 2 years, 3 years at my second and I just changed one month ago).

All of this makes me earn now 70% more than my first job. That's impressive.

I can't wait to quit my current job. I'm the only one who comes into work consistently, while everyone else just comes in when they feel like it. Management scolds them verbally, but no one is ever disciplined or fired because the union is too strong and they know as long as at least as one "pack mule" (me) shows up, the daily deadline will be met.

I've asked the manager for a transfer several times, but it just goes in one ear and out the next. The last time I asked, I told her if she didn't transfer me, I would resign without telling her. She was really angry at first, then she was legit shook because she knows if I did something like that, the entire place would burn to the ground (and she'd get the blame) given how I'm the only one who shows up to work on a consistent basis and the only one who took the time to learn all the intricacies of the computer programs and how the operation works.

It's been three weeks so far and every time she sees me, she assures me that it's being worked on. However, I've had some really promising job leads in that time frame and as soon as I get an offer, I'm jumping ship.

My base is lower than I would like... but I'd be hard pressed to find a place that'll give me 220 hours of PTO plus 10 holiday days a year. I go back and forth on leaving or staying.

entremet said:

Article is paywalled, but you get the gist from this excerpt. 30 percent pay increase from job hopping is rather attractive.

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Just a little correction, OP.
As I understand it, the last sentence doesn't say that they get a 30% pay increase, but that the pay increase of job hoppers is 30% higher compared to the pay increase of non-hoppers.

Companies get rid of or destroy all long term benefits of employment then wonder why nobody stays in one place. I'm staying at my hbo because it's two feet from my house, I like the people I work with, and make a decent amount. I could probably make more if I hopped around but I value stability and getting off at 5 every day more than money.

Sometimes I feel greedy for wanting a different job even though my job has great benefits and pay
I'm just not doing what I want and feel like I'm wasting prime years when I could be most productive.

I'm about to do this after 11 years working in the same company. I'm a little nervous to change, but the pay increase it's huge(around 50%!) plus it's an union job with a lot of benefits. The job market it's crazy hot right now, and if you have the education and experience this it's your chance to get that money. :)

Chopchop said:

Yep. Always replacing your employees with entry-level people who will work for less pay saves you money in the short run, but screws you over in the long run because of brain drain and general morale/organization issues that come from the high turnover. But of course, since a lot of higher-up business people seem to like slash-and-burn tactics these days, they just show that they've saved money, collect their bonus, and leave before the company collapses behind them.

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I doubt the people at the top care about brain drain or high lay over as long as the job gets done and the profit rises. In a way this vulture tactic has always existed sadly. =/

Mortemis said:

I mean, I think it differs depending on the type of job, especially the easily replace part. Some may take a long time to ramp up a new comer, and a lot of times it'll take months to fill the position. At what point is it more valuable to just give a raise?

I understand that lower paying jobs wouldn't give out raises and just keep looking for more (though recently it's looking like even they are having a tough time filling positions), but to me it's crazy how companies would rather pay a new comer more money than give a raise. That's why it's more valuable to job hop.

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I am sure the people generally know how high the chance is to find someone on short notice that would work for the same or less. Obviously depends on the position for how high the chance is but I am sure for most positions you can find someone, even if you have to let other positions take over part of the work until you can fill the role.
I could imagine that the newcomer gets more money but it is still lower than giving a raise to a loyal employee. It is not like the next newcomer will get even more money, but rather you reset it or have data on how much money they made before the position they are currently applying for. Then you can always slightly overbid and someone will take it eventually.

Introvert said:

I can't wait to quit my current job. I'm the only one who comes into work consistently, while everyone else just comes in when they feel like it. Management scolds them verbally, but no one is ever disciplined or fired because the union is too strong and they know as long as at least as one "pack mule" (me) shows up, the daily deadline will be met.

I've asked the manager for a transfer several times, but it just goes in one ear and out the next. The last time I asked, I told her if she didn't transfer me, I would resign without telling her. She was really angry at first, then she was legit shook because she knows if I did something like that, the entire place would burn to the ground (and she'd get the blame) given how I'm the only one who shows up to work on a consistent basis and the only one who took the time to learn all the intricacies of the computer programs and how the operation works.

It's been three weeks so far and every time she sees me, she assures me that it's being worked on. However, I've had some really promising job leads in that time frame and as soon as I get an offer, I'm jumping ship.

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Good on you for quitting this job and let them crash. If they don't care then you should just move on.

Ashby said:

Does this mean I can go ahead and quit my job without having another lined up, because God would I love to do that right now

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Same for me. People make it sound easier than it is at times

As ssomeone that came of age in the work force at the turn of the century, this economy is extremely reminiscent, and I remember very similar articles being written at the time. I took the advice and started job hopping my way in to higher pay, and then eventually back in to the same position at my original company making 50% more.

Problem is, many companies put % caps on raises. Meaning they can only ever add say 5% to your salary. In those circumstances, I've had managers tell me they wanted me to quit and reapply so they could "start" me at a higher salary than they could give me via a pay raise.

Retiring after 40 years with a watch and a pension is a relic. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Instead of staying in the same job and taking whatever retirement they give you, I'd rather do what I have done.

Move around, learn a LOT more, gain far more experience, leverage all of these skills and information in to increasing higher paying positions, and invest my money as I see fit.

It can take a lot of hustle, but if you have it, not even events like 2001 or 2008 can stop you.

Ultimately, America does still afford opportunities and money for working hard AND smart.

MaverickHunterX said:

Same for me. People make it sound easier than it is at times

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Would work much better if there was a safety net in place to stimulate growth and mobility for all classes in your population.

Meh, it was coming. Employers have gleefully held overwhelming leverage since the economy broke a decade ago. It's about time the worker got a little bit back and yeah, you asshole employers who treat your employees like shit will be the ones getting ghosted when you least expect it.

Employers don't want to invest out of fear people will leave, but too many fail to understand what motivates a good employee to stay versus always looking for better opportunities. Employees have figured out we're as valuable as the cheap office furniture so.....fuck it, I'm getting mine just as many companies have a zero fucks mentality towards getting theirs.

I get raises every year plus I'm a minority so I probably would have less success and stability job hoping. I see younger people doing it a ton though.

Ashby said:

Does this mean I can go ahead and quit my job without having another lined up, because God would I love to do that right now

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It's kind of paradoxical, but being employed is apparently more attractive to companies looking to hire. At the very least, it gives you more leverage and less urgency when negotiating.

Kieli said:

It's kind of paradoxical, but being employed is apparently more attractive to companies looking to hire. At the very least, it gives you more leverage and less urgency when negotiating.

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Nothing really paradoxical in the sense that being employed suggests to future employers that you are in actuality employable. Companies don't care if you have a job, only that they need someone to fill theirs.

It always makes me happy though when I hear about people quitting and finding extra pay at a new job. Lawyers at big law firms (tend to) get paid in lockstep with their year of call, so there isn't a lot of mobility because everyone is in the same hampster wheel. I will never know the joy of someone offering me more money to do what I'm already doing :(

Mass Effect said:

As this becomes more common, I wonder how companies will attempt to curb job hopping?

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Here is what I've seen in the tech industry, where job hopping is fairly rampant:

- The amount of paid vacation you get is tied to your tenure. At my job we get an additional week at year 3, then one more at year 5. If you leave the company and come back, you have to start over as if you were a new employee.

- A good chunk of our pay comes in the form of stock. They give you a big stock grant that takes 4 years to fully pay out. If you quit, you have to leave behind whatever portion of the grant hasn't paid out yet. Now, this is not really all that different from just giving a higher salary, but it triggers people's sense of loss aversion, because it feels like you are losing money you have already earned, as opposed to having not earned the money yet.

Currently in a spot like a lot of people current job has good benefits but shit pay so I'm looking externally more and more the only grace my current job has going for it is the hours and weekends match up with my girlfriends so that's tough to walk away from.

Yup. In the engineering field, the only way to get a large pay raise is to job hop.

I am considering doing so at the end of the year, but I may just stay at my current company. The pay is already great, sure, and I also get along with my boss and coworkers. They want to make me a principal at the company, which means owning stock, but then I have to sign a non-compete clause. They've been bugging me about it ever since I earned my PE license back in 2016.

I'll probably entertain a few job interviews and what not. Then see what the best direction is to go from there.

Chamaeleonx said:

Kinda sad that staying at the same job doesn't yield much of a wage increase... . Now you are basically a mercenary that hops from mission to mission to make the most money.

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Most badass way to describe the instability of the job market.

mug said:

Just want to drop my 2c here - never take a counter offer!

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Really? Why?

So I just got a job out of college, how long do I have to stay? I'm an engineer.

My job is chill, but doesn't do the things I want to do, like Six Sigma or SAP.

My job wants us to not hop within the first 2 years by making us pay back relocation money if we voluntarily leave.

This is an option now because the unemployment rate is so low.

I want to leave my job but I can't because there would be a time period where i wouldn't receive a paycheck. I have applied to over 200 jobs while working this one to no avail so its a good thing I haven't quit this one.

On another note, I think the fast food places are going to be forced to raise their wages. Almost all of them down here are struggling to employ workers. Some of them even close down earlier than advertised for the day because they don't have enough employees to manage a shift.

This never quite made sense to me economically. If companies are more willing to let people go than give them raises, but are willing to hire new people at those higher wages the employee was originally asking for, it seems like they'd still often end up paying the higher wage. Except now they've got a fresh employee who doesn't know the ins and outs.

Assuming, of course, that it's the same group of companies shuffling job-hoppers between themselves. If there was one group of companies that hired low and lost job-hoppers, and a separate group that hired high and gained job-hoppers, that would make sense.

A friend of mine who graduated at the same time has had 4 different jobs, I've been at the same one the entire time. She started out making like $8k less than me, now she's making close to $10k more.. so yeah you definitely bigger raises from jumping around.

I've got great benefits and excellent union-level stability at my current job...but articles like this make me think I need to see what I could get if I went somewhere else.

mugwhump said:

This never quite made sense to me economically. If companies are more willing to let people go than give them raises, but are willing to hire new people at those higher wages the employee was originally asking for, it seems like they'd still often end up paying the higher wage. Except now they've got a fresh employee who doesn't know the ins and outs.

Assuming, of course, that it's the same group of companies shuffling job-hoppers between themselves. If there was one group of companies that hired low and lost job-hoppers, and a separate group that hired high and gained job-hoppers, that would make sense.

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Sometimes it is an issue with organizational structure. A person may have the skills needed for a promotion, but doesn't get one at their current company because there are no positions open at the next level. So they find a different company that does have such a position open and apply there.

Here is another way to think about it: All other things being equal, most people probably don't want to change companies. It requires you to go out of your comfort zone. You have to go through the interview process, which usually sucks. Maybe it requires you to move and sell your house. If it's something most people don't want to do, then it stands to reason that there ought to be a premium associated with doing it.

I have an interview coming up for a job offer that pays 45% more than what I'm making at my current job which I've been at for over a year. Article is accurate

I'll never understand it. Job hopping = more pay right? So then there's a good chance whoever replaces you after you leave is also negotiating for a higher salary, plus training costs. Seems like it would be better to just show some appreciation for the workers you have.

They say for your financial situation it's good to change jobs every other 3 or 5 years. Not doing that can make you loose out like 300k here were I am at the end of your career.

entremet said:

Article is paywalled, but you get the gist from this excerpt. 30 percent pay increase from job hopping is rather attractive.

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I actually got a larger increase jumping jobs in May. The market is hot right now. I've pulled over two co-workers that got similar increases.

mugwhump said:

This never quite made sense to me economically. If companies are more willing to let people go than give them raises, but are willing to hire new people at those higher wages the employee was originally asking for, it seems like they'd still often end up paying the higher wage. Except now they've got a fresh employee who doesn't know the ins and outs.

Assuming, of course, that it's the same group of companies shuffling job-hoppers between themselves. If there was one group of companies that hired low and lost job-hoppers, and a separate group that hired high and gained job-hoppers, that would make sense.

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Well a lot of companies are willing to grow talent internally and not replace you 1:1. I was replaced by someone with 5 years less experience. The company will suffer in the short term but its not going to mortgage its future and create an uneven pay situation trying to retain everyone that gets a higher offer elsewhere. The company that hired me for more is in a desperate situation for workers with deadlines they need to meet. It's risky hopping around too, this company could fail and I could be out looking for a job again in a year in a market that overheated and crashed. But, I regret not doing this earlier in my career, staying with my first employer too long out of a sense of loyalty that was completely misplaced. Need to look out for #1 when it comes to your career.

tokkun said:

Sometimes it is an issue with organizational structure. A person may have the skills needed for a promotion, but doesn't get one at their current company because there are no positions open at the next level. So they find a different company that does have such a position open and apply there.

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Also this, I got a career bump to go with the salary bump that would have taken me another 3-4 years to achieve at my previous employer.

Jzeero said:

I quit my soul sucking sales/Customer service job and I've never been happier. Don't just have a job for money, there's something better out there for you

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What's your current job now? Looking to move on from cs as well

I like my job but Id bail in a heartbeat for a better offer

I did this last year. Was offered a promotion and got lowballed. Argued hard and got a promotion with a bit more money, but was still shocked at how abusive and rude they were about my request. They drug their feet for so long on following through that I had already dipped my toe into the water.

By the time I got the job, they had burned me so bad that I followed through for that cycle and then got another job that offered 20% more than the promotion pay I had argued. Basically went up almost $20,000 in pay within 5 months.

Makes sense. Demand, experience, and naturally increasing industry wages typically outpace whatever raises you get in your position. A strong economy and low unemployment are only going to push this along faster.

I didn't know it at the time but if I had waited a few months I could've taken a job in a different department with a 20k increase in pay because they're trying to ramp up quickly.

It varies depending on your industry and career path, but generally, yeah, hopping around every 3-5 years is the best way to keep yourself marketable and your salary on the upward trend. If the American working experience was different, and loyalty was rewarded with growth as well as stability, then it'd be different. But that's not the reality we're in. Not most of us, anyway.

tokkun said:

Sometimes it is an issue with organizational structure. A person may have the skills needed for a promotion, but doesn't get one at their current company because there are no positions open at the next level. So they find a different company that does have such a position open and apply there.

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That kinda makes sense

tokkun said:

Here is another way to think about it: All other things being equal, most people probably don't want to change companies. It requires you to go out of your comfort zone. You have to go through the interview process, which usually sucks. Maybe it requires you to move and sell your house. If it's something most people don't want to do, then it stands to reason that there ought to be a premium associated with doing it.

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I'm aware that job-hopping is more difficult and costly for employees than employers, but that doesn't really answer the question of why companies would be more willing to offer an increased salary to a new guy hopping jobs than the old guy who already knows the job. Unless
A) they think the new guy's experience at a different company is more valuable than the old guy's experience at their company, or
B) they're deliberately instituting a minimal raise policy to train employees not to expect them, and thus exploit their monopsony power hoping to end up with quality employees who are unwilling to job hop

Scubamonk said:

I'll never understand it. Job hopping = more pay right? So then there's a good chance whoever replaces you after you leave is also negotiating for a higher salary, plus training costs. Seems like it would be better to just show some appreciation for the workers you have.

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Yeah

LukeOP said:

It's one of those dumb traditions people follow even though it serves them no benefit and it's not mandatory.

People can be fired on the spot but for some reason they feel the need to give a company 2 weeks notice if they want to quit?

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It makes no sense if you're riding off into the sunset to never return, but if you're still networking and might ever be back for other better opportunities, you give them 2 weeks.

Link said:

Except I can guarantee that you'd be making a whole lot more if you took each of those promotions at a different company. I've seen it personally. They are always going to lowball you as an internal candidate. If they hired someone from the outside to the same position, they'd likely be offered a better salary.

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The thing is they just have so much more leverage on internal candidates, since they know your current salary and know that what they'll offer you is better than what you currently have such that you will probably accept. Realistically, when it comes to a raise or promotion, your choices are just to take it or leave it, and they know you'll probably take it.

MagicDoogies said:

I refuse to believe that she just said ''lol bored" and quit and just HAPPENED to find another much better paying job.The only jobs that work like this for the average person is retail, food industry or run of the mill degree jobs like Nursing. People like her always had a back up she's not talking about or has good contacts that will put her on almost immediately.

This is not the reality or go to strategy for any person tight on money and in need of job security.
Don't ever just leave your job unless you KNOW you have something lined up

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I did it. I have a friend who did it, too, and we are both now making a lot more than we did before.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily say I recommend it, but the amount of time I took to do interviews in the month or so that I was off likely would have gotten me fired if I'd taken it on company time. I also felt like I interviewed better, as well, since I didn't have to squeeze them out during lunchtime or something.

Yeah I know a number of people at my work who have progressed upwards very quickly, simply by leaving the company and then coming back via a competitor.

Yea my pops has quit a couple of times and now he's up to about $315/hour, IIRC.

I'm 35 and I like my job and enjoy going to work. I could probably get more money if I job hopped, but it's hard to find a job that I enjoy as much as my current setup. Considering I've had different jobs for 20 years and this is the first one I truly enjoy, it would have to be a pretty big raise (25%ish) to get me to move. When you make enough to the point you are not just scraping by and you enjoy your job, employers kinda have you right where they want you. It's a sweet spot for both parties involved.

Maybe I'll ask my boss for a raise tho

Mass Effect said:

As this becomes more common, I wonder how companies will attempt to curb job hopping?

I could see companies adopting a policy to trash any resume from candidates who haven't stayed at one job for at least 3 years. Outside of something like that or simply providing better wages, I'm not sure what they could do to stop it.

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that would be awful and I hope bad things happen to companies that do that

I've gotten far too complacent in my current work environment and I've been here over 10 years. Probably time for me to pack up and try to move soon.

I'm not gonna say how, but I left my last job almost 3 years ago and I'm now making exactly twice what I was being paid there. Yes. My salary doubled within 3 years. Never settle, people. I knew my last job was holding me back, but now that I would for a huge company that's going to open even more doors.

Yeah, as a college student I've found this to be incredibly true with unskilled jobs. There is almost zero reason to stay in a job that doesn't require a degree for more than 6 months. Most companies pay so poorly for promotions from within that it is significantly more beneficial to just switch jobs. My current job is pretty solid with raises and hours, but I would turn down a promotion if I was offered one, because the raise for taking on more responsibility just wouldn't be enough to justify taking it.

Like, my job right now could be done by just about anyone with just 2 hours of training, technically 6 for legal reasons, but I'm making $3 more an hour than I got paid to be a manager at a fast food chain and getting significantly better working conditions.

Of course, the major downside to this strategy is that many people can't do it. If you have a family to take care of, taking off a few months while you find a better paying job is going to be incredibly difficult. It's why we're seeing less and less young people in fast food and more and more parents who have a family to take care of can't afford to leave.