Jaguar I- Pace: Auto Express Car of the year

Veliladon · Jul 4, 2018

Unknown said:
Volvo are apparently going to announce the Polestar 2 later this year (to be released next year?), which I'm hoping will be something like the old S30 design wise. They will then announce a full EV version of the XC-40 sometime after that (to be releasing in ~ 2020) and is rumored that it is going to be around $45-50k.

If you want a PHEV from them, then Volvo are more about performance than pure efficiency. They have 'T8' variants of most of their cars (except the XC-40 sadly), which is a setup where the front wheels are driven by a supercharged, turbocharged 2L 4c engine with a small electric motor - and the rear is driven by a modest (~100hp?) electric motor. The combination means they usually get over 400hp/450nm and quite good mileage given their size/power. They aren't all that cheap though, around $55k for the S60/XC60.

Yeah the full EV for $40-50K is what I was interested in the most but what I really want is an EV V60. I was kicking the tires on the T8 version of the S60 but it was just a tad too expensive. Maybe I could stretch that far for a V60 variant (because that's what I really wanted) but I wouldn't spend that much money for something I wouldn't be totally satisfied with. I might have to come with a compromise with the wife. We get an S60 PHEV, she drives it during the week to work and back, I drive it all the other times. We get rebates + fuel cost reduction and that means we can afford a more expensive car.

I was also kicking the tires on a 330e but BMW for some reason aren't offering it with xDrive and I want xDrive for snowy MA winters. If they did end up releasing a 330ex I'd probably trade in the wife's 328xi immediately for it.

Rival · Jul 4, 2018

Volvo's upcoming EV's I believe will be something very special!

Veliladon · Jul 4, 2018

I'm still not sure why Toybaru haven't come out with a PHEV AWD version of the GT-86. Engine to rear wheels. Motor to front wheels.

Parch · Jul 4, 2018

Not just electric car of the year, but car of the year. That's high praise indeed.

I think it looks great, and I have no doubts about Jaguar's reputation for quality, fit and finish.

turbobrick · Jul 4, 2018

Veliladon said:
I'm still not sure why Toybaru haven't come out with a PHEV AWD version of the GT-86. Engine to rear wheels. Motor to front wheels.

Space most likely. There's no awd version of the regular car, so if there's ever going to be an electric version, it will stay rwd. Also, being rwd is one of the main points of the car. Otherwise, if you want awd, subaru will sell you a wrx.

offtopic · Jul 4, 2018

Rival said:
Anyone with google can find the many reviews. Also, I think i'd lose my job if I linked you to confidential teardowns. It's however widely known and accepted that Tesla have poor build quality.

It's clear you defensive of the Tesla, but your knowledge of the competition is flawed

Yeah if you can't post links to things you claim then just stop claiming them. I looked around for your consensus reviews that the driveability of the iPace is better than the Model S...couldn't find anything at all. Some stuff related to the Model X (which weighs 500lbs more than the ipace and carries much more cargo) but almost nothing with the Model S. Can you provide even two? Most of the first reviews I found were journalists gushing about it as thought they'd never been in an EV before (ASTONISHINGLY QUIET! SO FAST! IT KEPT UP WITH AN AUDI RS4!) lol.

"it is widely known" is such bullshit. Sounds like some Fox news headline announcing Obama isn't a US citizen or Hillary emails compromised the integrity of the entire US government. New car models always have quality issues (just wait until the iPace is out on the road in numbers) even from established manufacturers. A new car model from a new car manufacturer (even one that intends well) will have more. What is of more interest is do they learn and improve (and how quickly they do so). The quality differences between a 2012 Model S and a 2017/18 Model S are huge and indicate that, as a manufacturer they can learn and improve quite quickly.

offtopic · Jul 4, 2018

Parch said:
Not just electric car of the year, but car of the year. That's high praise indeed.

I think it looks great, and I have no doubts about Jaguar's reputation for quality, fit and finish.

I'm pretty sure they are only looking at new or significantly redesigned models...not all cars on the road.

Parch · Jul 4, 2018

Well yeah. It's their New Car Awards for all 2018 models. Auto Express has multiple categories covering all types of cars, trucks, and vans. The I-Pace was their best of the best.

SK4TE · Jul 4, 2018

Stinkles said:
Only 55k pounds in America. I'm still amazed how cheap our cars are, even imports. If I bought a new Porsche, not only would it be far cheaper than in the UK but Porsche would throw in a free German vacation to pick it and drive it to the shipping container on the autobahn. Trump about to wreck that though.

Is the vacation a thing?

Rival · Jul 4, 2018

offtopic said:
Yeah if you can't post links to things you claim then just stop claiming them. I looked around for your consensus reviews that the driveability of the iPace is better than the Model S...couldn't find anything at all. Some stuff related to the Model X (which weighs 500lbs more than the ipace and carries much more cargo) but almost nothing with the Model S. Can you provide even two? Most of the first reviews I found were journalists gushing about it as thought they'd never been in an EV before (ASTONISHINGLY QUIET! SO FAST! IT KEPT UP WITH AN AUDI RS4!) lol.

"it is widely known" is such bullshit. Sounds like some Fox news headline announcing Obama isn't a US citizen or Hillary emails compromised the integrity of the entire US government. New car models always have quality issues (just wait until the iPace is out on the road in numbers) even from established manufacturers. A new car model from a new car manufacturer (even one that intends well) will have more. What is of more interest is do they learn and improve (and how quickly they do so). The quality differences between a 2012 Model S and a 2017/18 Model S are huge and indicate that, as a manufacturer they can learn and improve quite quickly.

I'm not asking you, or anyone else to take my word as gospel, so don't expect me to provide you with anything. It seems to me judging by your dismissal of the reviews that perhaps you just don't want to believe it's perhaps a match for the Tesla ...That's fine

Mcfrank · Jul 4, 2018

Good deal. Glad it turned out well.

offtopic · Jul 4, 2018

Rival said:
I'm not asking you, or anyone else to take my word as gospel, so don't expect me to provide you with anything. It seems to me judging by your dismissal of the reviews that perhaps you just don't want to believe it's perhaps a match for the Tesla ...That's fine

Reviews that don't exist or only you can see apparently. Just admit there hasn't really been a comparison done let alone one done by someone knowledgeable of both vehicles or done side-by-side. Stop claiming it.

I am curious though as to why you'd do tear-downs that are confidential. Only reason I can come up with is you work for/with a competitor (or for Tesla yourself but I think that would have been apparent by now). I am open to other reasons as well but it just sort of goes with your subjective analysis and failure to produce data to back up your claims.

offtopic · Jul 4, 2018

Parch said:
Well yeah. It's their New Car Awards for all 2018 models. Auto Express has multiple categories covering all types of cars, trucks, and vans. The I-Pace was their best of the best.

Definitely good. Hopefully EVs can keep that rolling year after year.

Parch · Jul 4, 2018

A Mercedes was their luxury car of the year and compact executive car of the year.
A Porsche was their performance car of the year.
A Volvo was their small premium SUV of the year.
I'm looking forward to seeing what they have to offer with their electrics.

Rival · Jul 4, 2018

offtopic said:
Reviews that don't exist or only you can see apparently. Just admit there hasn't really been a comparison done let alone one done by someone knowledgeable of both vehicles or done side-by-side. Stop claiming it.

I am curious though as to why you'd do tear-downs that are confidential. Only reason I can come up with is you work for/with a competitor (or for Tesla yourself but I think that would have been apparent by now). I am open to other reasons as well but it just sort of goes with your subjective analysis and failure to produce data to back up your claims.

Several reviews have called it the best EV currently available, that includes Teslas. They're readily available to read online, and watch on YouTube.

If you don't want to believe that then I really don't mind, however for anyone else whos interested they're there to be read/watched.

It'll be quickly made apparent to anyone who's interested, just how good a vehicle the I-Pace is, and due to the significant investment in its assembly, and its outsourcing to specialists, the quality should be fantastic from the start.

I work for a competitor company and have been lucky enough to teardown several competing vehicles, reverse engineering them and joining our other teams testing them.

Veliladon · Jul 5, 2018

turbobrick said:
Space most likely. There's no awd version of the regular car, so if there's ever going to be an electric version, it will stay rwd. Also, being rwd is one of the main points of the car. Otherwise, if you want awd, subaru will sell you a wrx.

You don't need an AWD variant of the ICE powertrain though to create a hybrid AWD variant. If you put the motors in the front wheel hubs and the battery pack under the drive train there's room.

Stinkles · Jul 5, 2018

SK4TE said:
Is the vacation a thing?

Yup!

turbobrick · Jul 5, 2018

Veliladon said:
You don't need an AWD variant of the ICE powertrain though to create a hybrid AWD variant. If you put the motors in the front wheel hubs and the battery pack under the drive train there's room.

True, you could easily find room I guess. You could even just have two of the same motors next to or on top of each other, and one for the rear wheels and one for the front. I still say an awd version of the car shouldn't exist. Though I also think automatic transmission versions of the car shouldn't exist, so I'm probably a bad judge for this.

I would buy an electric 86/BRZ, though it would need to be RWD and still have a manual transmission with a clutch, even though yes I know electric cars don't need them.

Unknown · Jul 5, 2018

Rival said:
I work for a competitor company and have been lucky enough to teardown several competing vehicles, reverse engineering them and joining our other teams testing them.

That sounds like quite a fun job, so you get to learn all about other people's hard work, designs, ideas and mistakes - without having to worry about people being upset with what you find? :)

I'd be curious if there was a specific car you were unexpectedly impressed by? I imagine you see a lot of really ingenious things (and also a lot of wtfs too ;). Do understand if you'd rather not comment though.

...

Back on topic, I'm really glad for Jaguar. It'll be really interesting to see how the e-tron and EQC do aswell. I have this suspicion that the premium EV wave it's going to hit a lot harder than people think, especially once mainstream buyers see just how much better they have the potential to be.

A 50 to 60kw/h ipace would probably be the perfect car for me. ~150m of range, a little lighter and a little cheaper. Mmmmm. :-)

Rival · Jul 5, 2018

Unknown said:
I'd be curious if there was a specific car you were unexpectedly impressed by? I imagine you see a lot of really ingenious things (and also a lot of wtfs too ;). Do understand if you'd rather not comment though.

It's a really interesting job! I have to admit though that most the wtf moments come from looking at our own ideas!

When it comes to quality though, most European manufacturers have similar suppliers so it's normally quite consistent. Where they differ is on integration and actual assembly

Veliladon · Jul 5, 2018

turbobrick said:
True, you could easily find room I guess. You could even just have two of the same motors next to or on top of each other, and one for the rear wheels and one for the front. I still say an awd version of the car shouldn't exist. Though I also think automatic transmission versions of the car shouldn't exist, so I'm probably a bad judge for this.

I would buy an electric 86/BRZ, though it would need to be RWD and still have a manual transmission with a clutch, even though yes I know electric cars don't need them.

Yeah I guess. I was just thinking for winter in Mass. My driveway is a pain in the ass to clear so I rarely do it. My wife's BMW with xDrive makes it up the hill with snow tires on. My poor little FR-S on the other hand just can't get enough torque down on the rear wheels before they spin even with WS80s and a hundred pounds of sand for ballast in the back. If I had electric motors on the front with the TCS I'd be able to make it up the hill no problem. Switch off the electrics and you have yourself a RWD car again.

plagiarize · Jul 5, 2018

I'm a big fan, but barring a windfall in the next two and a half years, my next car will need to be something at least $20,000 cheaper.

Parch · Jul 5, 2018

Veliladon said:
Yeah I guess. I was just thinking for winter in Mass. My driveway is a pain in the ass to clear so I rarely do it. My wife's BMW with xDrive makes it up the hill with snow tires on.

Regional preferences. AWD in Canada is popular too.

Deleted member 29806 · Jul 5, 2018

So we get electric vehicles for the rich that use electricity, but with like 2.2 tons and the needed horsepower to propel them are the antithesis of economical.

People who can't afford these (which are obviously the majority) need to drive their old fuel vehicles, which still pollute the environment as there is not much being done to make them smaller or more economical.

The overall carbon footprint, even if their might be less direct pollution will probably rise or not decrease much at all.

Veliladon · Jul 5, 2018

Kukulcan said:
So we get electric vehicles for the rich that use electricity, but with like 2.2 tons and the needed horsepower to propel them are the antithesis of economical.

People who can't afford these (which are obviously the majority) need to drive their old fuel vehicles, which still pollute the environment as there is not much being done to make them smaller or more economical.

The overall carbon footprint, even if their might be less direct pollution will probably rise or not decrease much at all.

What? Grids are getting cleaner almost constantly, fuel economy standards are tightened constantly, personal solar is growing constantly. Myself here in Massachusetts our grid is only half fossil fuels. A third is nuclear and the rest is renewable.

If I drive 12000 miles in a Model S, all 4700lbs of it, I generate 1.6 tons of CO2 upstream. I'm going to offset half of that from my leftover solar generation (I put out about 1.5MWh back onto the grid than I use) so I'd generate 800kg of CO2 per year going 12000 miles per year. In a VW TDI, one of the most fuel efficient diesels with 30/42mpg I put out 3.4 tons of CO2.

As the grid gets cleaner and cleaner the numbers only improve for the electric car tending towards zero. The cars that need gas/diesel will only improve slightly down to an absolute minimum. The only way to get carbon neutral using an ICE is to either use 100% bioethanol or synthetic fuel from captured CO2 and even then only if it's created using clean energy.

Deleted member 29806 · Jul 5, 2018

Veliladon said:
What? Grids are getting cleaner almost constantly, fuel economy standards are tightened constantly, personal solar is growing constantly. Myself here in Massachusetts our grid is only half fossil fuels. A third is nuclear and the rest is renewable.

If I drive 12000 miles in a Model S, all 4700lbs of it, I generate 1.6 tons of CO2 upstream. I'm going to offset half of that from my leftover solar generation (I put out about 1.5MWh back onto the grid than I use) so I'd generate 800kg of CO2 per year going 12000 miles per year. In a VW TDI, one of the most fuel efficient diesels with 30/42mpg I put out 3.4 tons of CO2.

As the grid gets cleaner and cleaner the numbers only improve for the electric car tending towards zero. The cars that need gas/diesel will only improve slightly down to an absolute minimum. The only way to get carbon neutral using an ICE is to either use 100% bioethanol or synthetic fuel from captured CO2 and even then only if it's created using clean energy.

I applaud creating solar energy but your personal carbon footprint is not making enough difference. Once renewable energy is the main energy state-/country-/worldwide it is great having electrical cars. And when we are there build cars as big as you like.

So if you drove that VW TDi you would be able to put more of your solar energy into the grid and somewhere some air condition would run on your solar energy instead of some fossile energy. And if you'd drive a 2000lbs (sensible) car you would maybe generate 0.8 tons of CO2. But you want your status symbol/and or needlessly (IMHO) powerful car, that uses most of its energy to propel like factor 30 of your own weight to move you around.

As I said, fine for me once we have 100% clean energy, until then your waste of energy (not even talking about what it takes to produce that car) will make harder to reach those 100%. Sorry, but saving energy is as important as transforming its usage from one type to another.

Of course I give you cleaner cities and slightly better efficiency of electric engines.

Parch · Jul 5, 2018

Kukulcan said:
People who can't afford these (which are obviously the majority) need to drive their old fuel vehicles, which still pollute the environment as there is not much being done to make them smaller or more economical.

The overall carbon footprint, even if their might be less direct pollution will probably rise or not decrease much at all.

There are affordable EV. They're not all expensive luxury cars. Prices will come down too as choice and competition increases.
Electrics will be niche for awhile as society adjusts but will continue to grow significantly.

Deleted member 29806 · Jul 5, 2018

Parch said:
There are affordable EV. They're not all expensive luxury cars. Prices will come down too as choice and competition increases.
Electrics will be niche for awhile as society adjusts but will continue to grow significantly.

We are just a small country when it comes to cars, but German automakers completely failed producing affordable electrical cars. German government pays a nice bonus if you buy one, but even with that most people are far from buying something like an I3.

Don't know any smaller japanese electrical cars, as they rather go for hybrids, which I find more sensible with our current energy mix, and which come in smaller variants too.

Tesla 3, a step in the right direction, but there needs to be another model below that. Problem is, batteries are too expensive/huge for a really affordable compact car with acceptable range.

turbobrick · Jul 5, 2018

Parch said:
There are affordable EV. They're not all expensive luxury cars. Prices will come down too as choice and competition increases.
Electrics will be niche for awhile as society adjusts but will continue to grow significantly.

Depends on what you consider affordable though. I mean, electric cars have been around long enough there's enough sub $10k cars on the used market. But if you buy new you'll be spending at least $30k.

Veliladon · Jul 5, 2018

Kukulcan said:
I applaud creating solar energy but your personal carbon footprint is not making enough difference. Once renewable energy is the main energy state-/country-/worldwide it is great having electrical cars. And when we are there build cars as big as you like.

So if you drove that VW TDi you would be able to put more of your solar energy into the grid and somewhere some air condition would run on your solar energy instead of some fossile energy. And if you'd drive a 2000lbs (sensible) car you would maybe generate 0.8 tons of CO2. But you want your status symbol/and or needlessly (IMHO) powerful car, that uses most of its energy to propel like factor 30 of your own weight to move you around.

As I said, fine for me once we have 100% clean energy, until then your waste of energy (not even talking about what it takes to produce that car) will make harder to reach those 100%. Sorry, but saving energy is as important as transforming its usage from one type to another.

Of course I give you cleaner cities and slightly better efficiency of electric engines.

I think you have some really terrible perspective on how heavy small cars actually are. A Miata weighs a touch over 2300lbs. My FR-S tips the scales at 2800lbs, not much more than a Fit at 2600lbs. Any energy generated by the grid is going to use half as much fossil fuels. It's also going to use much cleaner natural gas compared to oil, and it's going to be generated by high pressure combined cycle gas turbines which get to 50% thermal efficiency on the fuel compared to 20-something percent on gasoline. Taking away losses for transmission and distribution and you still end up way ahead when you figure half of the power also isn't putting out carbon.

It's ridiculously better to take a bit of extra weight for an electric powertrain.

Also, that small car isn't going to generate 0.8 tons of CO2. The TDI is already a diesel running 50% more thermally efficient than a gasoline engine.

Jaguar I- Pace: Auto Express Car of the year

Veliladon

Rival

Veliladon

Parch

turbobrick

offtopic

offtopic

Parch

SK4TE

Rival

Mcfrank

offtopic

offtopic

Parch

Rival

Veliladon

Stinkles

turbobrick

Unknown

Rival

Veliladon

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.

Parch

Deleted member 29806

User requested account closure

Veliladon

Deleted member 29806

User requested account closure

Parch

Deleted member 29806

User requested account closure

turbobrick

Veliladon