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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
Multiple people in the millennial socialists thread are stating as fact that DSA housing policies have been proven wrong. I assume they're referring to a conviction that trickle-down market-rate or higher housing construction works and that rent control is bad, but maybe someone here can elaborate?
 
OP
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Multiple people in the millennial socialists thread are stating as fact that DSA housing policies have been proven wrong. I assume they're referring to a conviction that trickle-down market-rate or higher housing construction works and that rent control is bad, but maybe someone here can elaborate?

As I understand it, and I'm certainly no expert on housing construction or policy, following capitalist logic there really are problems with rent control because landlords are forced to raise rents on tenants who it doesn't apply to, don't put in as much effort to fix stuff since they don't have to attract new tenants since it's not like they're in a competitive market, etc. Simply building more stuff works out better under capitalism.

This is one of those issues where the obvious problem here...is capitalism.

In other news, big victory for AMLO in Mexico tonight. Gonna be wild.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
No incentive to build new housing, nepotism reserves housing for constituents, everyone who gets it never leaves, rent raises where it isn't controlled.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
16,058


A bit old, but we did it guys! woo!!


Trump btfo Marx Magic ftw Dems in disarray

fse0a4uf7sls.jpg
 

hapankorppu

Banned
Jun 8, 2018
88
being agaist basic needs being provided is digusting.
It is not important if basic needs are provided by private or state entity, but security and efficiency state provides is not easy to ignore. State has to provide regardless of costs, private entity can say "fuck it."
Also i am not saying private entities can not exist, but if they produce basic need items, then those items are free. When there is no money to be made, i do not expect private entities to do those.
Every time something has been privatised things have become worse. So there is no case for privatisation of state run entities.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
No incentive to build new housing, nepotism reserves housing for constituents, everyone who gets it never leaves, rent raises where it isn't controlled.
As I understand it, and I'm certainly no expert on housing construction or policy, following capitalist logic there really are problems with rent control because landlords are forced to raise rents on tenants who it doesn't apply to, don't put in as much effort to fix stuff since they don't have to attract new tenants since it's not like they're in a competitive market, etc. Simply building more stuff works out better under capitalism.

This is one of those issues where the obvious problem here...is capitalism.

In other news, big victory for AMLO in Mexico tonight. Gonna be wild.

Okay, but what about trickle-down YIMBY housing policy like SB 827? Is there some actual evidence that that works to prevent displacement or increase the supply of below-market-rate housing?

There is no way to address the housing crisis without building large amounts of new housing, the YIMBYs are correct on that much, but I'm increasingly convinced that nothing the free market is willing to do will be adequate.

Related to the above, it's impressive how much control YIMBYs have seized over the discourse here and in certain other liberal spaces I occasionally participate in. Evince the slightest bit of skepticism that building tons of market-rate or higher housing will actually help the people left most vulnerable by urban housing crises, and you immediately get smeared as a NIMBY. Minority neighborhood community groups afraid of displacement? Wealthy white homeowners who are afraid of "those people" coming into their neighborhoods? Fuck 'em equally, all NIMBYs!
 
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Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
I have a theory about resetera and political alignment, I want to know what you guys think.

There's more people from english speaking countries, specialy from the First World, people that are leftists in this forum, than from a country that does not speaks english and even more If its from the third World.

I explain:

Everyone knows that that as income is higher more right Wing people in that group there is. Videogames is a very expensive hobby for a person in the third World, so you have more people from that income (even though you can have people from older gens).

About the language point, the problem to learn a Foreign language is that usually two groups usually learn it, middle/high class so they can afford a teacher or people who have college degree (where there's public college).

So you have two barriers, income and language.

While in First World english speakers countries, games are more acessible and there's no language barrier. So you have a wider group of people.

Have no data to confirm, Its Just a theory.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
Okay, but what about trickle-down YIMBY housing policy like SB 827? Is there some actual evidence that that works to prevent displacement or increase the supply of below-market-rate housing?

There is no way to address the housing crisis without building large amounts of new housing, the YIMBYs are correct on that much, but I'm increasingly convinced that nothing the free market is willing to do will be adequate.

Related to the above, it's impressive how much control YIMBYs have seized over the discourse here and in certain other liberal spaces I occasionally participate in. Evince the slightest bit of skepticism that building tons of market-rate or higher housing will actually help the people left most vulnerable by urban housing crises, and you immediately get smeared as a NIMBY. Minority neighborhood community groups afraid of displacement? Wealthy white homeowners who are afraid of "those people" coming into their neighborhoods? Fuck 'em equally, all NIMBYs!
Usually I'm pretty skeptical of these people but Jacob Anbinder on Twitter is someone who seems to generally have good politics in every other area and is very YIMBY and might be worth a follow. I think he recently posted something about Seattle's rent increases dropping massively following YIMBY prescriptions or whatever? That said, housing policy isn't something I really know that much about and the answer to me seems to be "why doesn't the state just build all the houses?"
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-democratic-socialists-getting-started-20180702-story.html

Since Democratic Socialists of America member Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's earthquake victory over Rep. Joe Crowley on Tuesday, everyone from the New York Times to Fox News has told you what democratic socialism means. They haven't done a very good job.

So as director of DSA, the largest socialist organization in America, I'll explain. Democratic socialism means a world where we all can live in dignity and comfort. It means a world that we, the working-class majority, run for ourselves, without the poverty, oppression, environmental devastation, and war the wealthy have given us.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Jesus even the DSA director can't bring herself to say the words "means of production" lol
 
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Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I was disappointed when I watched a clip of AOC on The View (I think it was that - it was either that or Meet the Press) and she said "There's a difference between democratic socialism and socialism". Like, if she's playing the long game, I get it, but it's just going to water everything down into social democracy. It's ceding the term to the capitalists who want people to still be afraid of "socialism". I'd even rather have her say "there's a difference between socialism and communism" even though that's equally as dumb.

But at least new people will be exposed to the concept and dig deeper.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
Jesus even the DSA director can't bring herself to say the words "means of production" lol
orwell said:
To the ordinary working man, the sort you would meet in any pub on Saturday night, Socialism does not mean much more than better wages and shorter hours and nobody bossing you about.
I actually sort of struggle with this. As a squishy succdem/demsucc I think it's correct that people don't really give a shit about the more abstract ideas like stolen surplus labor and probably won't really ever. I know economic democracy is just as critical as national democracy and that a comprehensive socialist vision needs to include it but most American demands don't include nationalization in its current charges and even single-payer doesn't call for an NHS-style system. It is sort of weird to include the idea that socialism is allowing the working class majority to "run the world" but not really describe what that entails. I don't really have a strong take on this but until the current socdem crops win a big national policy (single payer seems like the most likely) I doubt we'll really see any such calls. Perhaps that's the failure of bougie electoral socialism.
Now is not the time for purity tests, sphagnum!
I lol'd
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
I was disappointed when I watched a clip of AOC on The View (I think it was that - it was either that or Meet the Press) and she said "There's a difference between democratic socialism and socialism". Like, if she's playing the long game, I get it, but it's just going to water everything down into social democracy. It's ceding the term to the capitalists who want people to still be afraid of "socialism". I'd even rather have her say "there's a difference between socialism and communism" even though that's equally as dumb.

But at least new people will be exposed to the concept and dig deeper.
Yeah, while i understand to Go the soc dem route, to accept the anti-communism from the right is problematic, they should Challenge that at least even if not identified with It.

I understand that Its time to get stonger and win etc. Maybe they want to Challenge the concept later, when they have political capital for that.

Its early to assume anything for now. And we don't know what they think about this to be sure.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Usually I'm pretty skeptical of these people but Jacob Anbinder on Twitter is someone who seems to generally have good politics in every other area and is very YIMBY and might be worth a follow. I think he recently posted something about Seattle's rent increases dropping massively following YIMBY prescriptions or whatever? That said, housing policy isn't something I really know that much about and the answer to me seems to be "why doesn't the state just build all the houses?"
Randomly caught the thread was bumped while searching out the wrestling thread and figured I'd drop the econ YIMBY narrative in. It's a basic econ supply/demand problem. Cities get increasing housing prices because they get an influx of new residents (new demand) and don't increase supply. Then when they DO build more homes, price of housing goes down. The issue with Seattle is that as the second tweet points out- the market is still vastly underserved in terms of raw #s of housing units -the current "empty apartment thing" is good but you have to keep building dense housing. Building mostly "high end" isn't so much an issue because of the hermit crab effect- when people move into a new place they leave the old one behind. But that takes time to happen - which is why Seattle has so many empty new places- people can't just move on a dime.

The reason this becomes a problem is local politics. Builders love building new stuff because they get paid to do it. In many of these places with housing prices escalating out of control, the price to build a new home is far, far cheaper than the market price of existing homes on the market, leading to enormous profit for builders if they can build a house, which is why they want to build! The problem is local residents tend to oppose it because they don't want to share resources with new residents and (most importantly) they like having their property values increase massively without them doing anything, making lots of money on the equity. And since politics are local, even though people overall are worse off under this protectionist arrangement, the minority benefiting are local and vote, while the ones being hurt are not residents yet and don't vote. (A similar phenomenon occurs re: immigration/trade nationally)




I gotta find the Noah Smith twitter thread on Gentrification I mention in the first post here, but it's core issue is that there's a lack of housing in upper income areas, and you see a chain hermit crab reaction the opposite direction- the first people to move into poor neighborhoods aren't the upper income folks, it starts with the lower-middle class and escalates upwards. https://www.resetera.com/posts/9653743/ https://www.resetera.com/posts/9653795/

edit: bonus map twitter link for SF/NY maps - https://twitter.com/cgjacob/status/1011012206622695424 Dense housing is legally prohibited from being build in many areas now.
 
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curly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42
I actually sort of struggle with this. As a squishy succdem/demsucc I think it's correct that people don't really give a shit about the more abstract ideas like stolen surplus labor and probably won't really ever.

When you put it in terms like stolen surplus labor yeah it sounds abstract and alienating but when you say "If one man has a dollar he didn't work for, some other man worked for a dollar he didn't get" that resonates a lot more.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Randomly caught the thread

Suuure

When you put it in terms like stolen surplus labor yeah it sounds abstract and alienating but when you say "If one man has a dollar he didn't work for, some other man worked for a dollar he didn't get" that resonates a lot more.

Someone needs to translate Marx into modern English like this rendition of Baudrillard.

You think you understand the fucking real, man? Try this shit on for size:

"The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth—it is the truth which conceals that there is none.
The simulacrum is true."
Ecclesiastes

BOOM. Fucking truth bomb. You're like, "What's a simulacrum?" It's Latin for copying shit. Like painting pictures of God, V-Card Mary, the Holy Fucking Ghost. Except that I'm gonna be the first to say that maybe those copies end up turning into their own reality, one that you might even call "hyperreal." Oh, and I might also point out that this is because there is no God.

Is that too much to handle? Then you're fucked, because right about now, I'm gonna let you know that the quote up above from Ecclesiastes ISN'T EVEN IN THE FUCKING BIBLE. The lesson here is to be skeptical or be a dumbass. Just because I wrote it doesn't mean shit.

Lez get started.

http://www.continentcontinent.cc/index.php/continent/article/viewArticle/91
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
uh excuse me sir manga is a term exclusively useful as describing a comic's country of origin and to try and classify a comic as manga based on its artwork is demeaning to the variety of style present in both Japanese and non-Japanese comi-*is dragged off to a gulag*
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
The top 1% of basketball teams literally horde most of the talented superstars from the rest of the league. We need socialism in the NBA immediately to create an even playing field across the league.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I realized while looking at AOC's Instagram that she's actually using her personal Instagram for her campaign. She must not have actually ever expected to win!


One of her pictures was an ad for an AMA on Reddit so I looked into that and it was basically the same stuff she usually talks about but I did find a few nuggets. Notably one where a see where she talks about automation and another where someone gets her to watch a Richard Wolff video lol

 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
I have a theory about resetera and political alignment, I want to know what you guys think.

There's more people from english speaking countries, specialy from the First World, people that are leftists in this forum, than from a country that does not speaks english and even more If its from the third World.

I explain:

Everyone knows that that as income is higher more right Wing people in that group there is. Videogames is a very expensive hobby for a person in the third World, so you have more people from that income (even though you can have people from older gens).

About the language point, the problem to learn a Foreign language is that usually two groups usually learn it, middle/high class so they can afford a teacher or people who have college degree (where there's public college).

So you have two barriers, income and language.

While in First World english speakers countries, games are more acessible and there's no language barrier. So you have a wider group of people.

Have no data to confirm, Its Just a theory.

Games are accessible in non Western countries. I think it's more of a culture and preference thing than not. Incredibly popular Western games get played by Eastern countries and as these countries begin to really embrace newer revenue streams then those barriers disappear. Unequal development and the like.

All you need to learn a foreign language is will and time and need. Classes are relatively inexpensive and software is available barring that.


stolen surplus labor

This is, at the end, the heart of the taxation issue for conservative workers.

You literally have a hard value assigned to your labor and extracted and line itemed for you to see it disappear into a nebulous and unaccountable government.
 

Deleted member 721

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Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Games are accessible in non Western countries. I think it's more of a culture and preference thing than not. Incredibly popular Western games get played by Eastern countries and as these countries begin to really embrace newer revenue streams then those barriers disappear. Unequal development and the like.

All you need to learn a foreign language is will and time and need. Classes are relatively inexpensive and software is available barring that.




This is, at the end, the heart of the taxation issue for conservative workers.

You literally have a hard value assigned to your labor and extracted and line itemed for you to see it disappear into a nebulous and unaccountable government.
Interesting, but yeah my POV was more to the west and more based on latam countries, my knowledge of the reality of the east is very limited. Only 5% of the brazil population knows some english (1% speaks fluently) and more in the groups i mentioned before, sure brazil is not all the coutries over here, but i see this trend in latin america, maybe mexico is different due to the border.

btw i was reading the definition of "western world", because i started to question if africa was considered part of the west, when its used this term, but to my surprise western world or the west is only the rich countries of the west, who coined the term is a very elitist asshole, they literally refer to the other countries of america and africa as "the rest" .

there's the east, there's the west
and there's the rest

incredible
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
To add to that note then: Brazil and video games. Brazil has(had?) a healthy game culture that was curbed by very heavy tariffs and taxation.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Not exactly communist but I thought this video of an old hippie remembering his commune days was interesting.

 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
At the grocery store and I couldn't help but laugh that the guy behind me had a Che shirt while his wife had a Gucci bag.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/07/3-arguments-against-socialism-and-why-they-fail

Today's capitalists like to giveHenry Ford credit for creating the eight-hour-workday and the two-day weekend. But Ford adopted them after labor radicals had been campaigning for more than sixty years to get the workday reduced. The eight-hour workday was suggested by the socialist Robert Owen all the way back in 1817. The job of socialists is to put radical ideas in people's heads. Then they become mainstream, then they get taken for granted, and finally everybody insists they believed them all along.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
being agaist basic needs being provided is digusting.
It is not important if basic needs are provided by private or state entity, but security and efficiency state provides is not easy to ignore. State has to provide regardless of costs, private entity can say "fuck it."
Also i am not saying private entities can not exist, but if they produce basic need items, then those items are free. When there is no money to be made, i do not expect private entities to do those.
Every time something has been privatised things have become worse. So there is no case for privatisation of state run entities.

The issue with basic needs being met by the state is equitable distribution. There is no way to ensure that those in power don't simply keep the best of everything for themselves. You've seen this time and again with food, but also with housing.

Housing is a great example as the US could easily provide free housing for all citizens. But it wouldn't be where all citizens want to live.

Who decides who is lucky enough to get a waterfront condo in SF and who gets an apartment in Detroit? Would the state have to mandate residence areas like China?

Part of the reason SF is expensive is because more people want to live here than there is currently available space. How do you make unequal demand equitable?
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The DSA made a message board. I can't imagine this won't devolve into infighting immediately.
Its happening the socialism conference in Chicago, It ends tomorrow, seems that jacobin is organizing it

https://socialismconference.org/

There's some videos available, anyone watched the conference?

I've never actually paid attention to this before, does anyone know if they actually have good content?