[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’

Occam · Jul 3, 2018

Westbahnhof said:
I still gotta hear more about that, be because so far it just sounds like "what is a Christmas and how does it work" type scenario".

There are no such lessons. That part was sensationalist nonsense.
As has been pointed out multiple times throughout this thread, Denmark is one of Europe's most liberal countries, there is a strict separation of church and state and most Danes are fairly a-religious. To quote Wikipeida:
"only 3% of the population regularly attend Sunday services and only 19% of Danes consider religion to be an important part of their life."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Denmark

Sloth Guevara · Jul 3, 2018

Thisman said:
So not only is it discriminatory against Muslims if a perso from the ghetto commits a crime the punishment is double that of a non ghetto punishment . What a wonderful way to push danish values.

Comply or get out is the message to the migrants .

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/3/...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

So Denmark is:

1. Making women who wear full face veils criminals
2. Double punishment for people living in predominately Muslim neighbours
3. Mandatory Separation of kids from mothers at 12 months only for people in majority Muslim neighbours
4. Denmark's immigration minister says fasting is dangerous for danish society
5. Danish prime minister says these places have their tentacles everywhere

And we are era folks defending Denmark
The message: we dislike Muslim culture. Either conform fully to danish culture or show yourself the door

It walks like a Bigot, it talks like a bigot, but it's really helping the kids ...

What's amazing : Denmark government or some era folks don't care what the people in these ghettos think. They just don't care. They want to force them to do their willing or get out

Lovely

I would again like to highlight this post.
If you look at the context around ghetto kids in daycare and see the other law targeting Muslim majority areas it is clear that these policies come from a place of xenophobia.
You will notice how the people justifying this only want to talk about policy devoid of context, and that is a damn dirty trick.
Since they can't justify the context they try and break it down.

Liljagare · Jul 3, 2018

What is the solution??

How do you really fix that?

In most of the areas, we have salifinists groupings.

joecanada · Jul 4, 2018

Interested Observer said:
Yes people should fear their free childcare, welfare payments and chance to get out and work.

If that's what they wanted they just wouldn't let them in in the first place. If they wanted pure Danish families they wouldn't have an open land border with the rest of Europe.

You people know that after having babies these days, women have to return to work generally? That they don't just sit at home raising children anymore? That one year olds being in childcare is not uncommon in the slightest?

Many people prefer to raise their own young children not put them in daycare. In fact many wealthy people i know never put their children in daycare and opt for some preschool instead
. Key is they obviously get a choice. No one should be forced to send a 1 year old to daycare that's the dumbest policy I've ever heard. I am in the industry and have never heard anyone advocate that.

chillichocolate · Jul 4, 2018

I actually think its good that the Danish government is trying something. They seem to be doing somethings that might be considered too much in a western republic but something similar actually happened in my country. The government mowed down ethnic enclaves formed by immigrants (we are an immigrant country), rehoused/strongly encouraged majority of the population to move to government built flats with strict racial quotas to force people to mix. There was also a crackdown on regional dialects (not allowed in schools and on local broadcasting) to streamline the languages and English as a primary language taught in all school. It was very ham fisted but it (mostly) works, we went from racial riots to co existence, even though there were other factors involved (like the crackdown in gangs).

There are doubts though in the extra penalty for crimes. That totally sounds way too much and courts should not allow any standing government to be able to implement a punitive law tiered along the lines of class/race. Totally fine with the child benefits clause, based on the previous poster, the danish government is giving quite a bit for child benefits, the child should be expected to be a contributing member to society.

Then again maybe I'm placing too much hope on them. There are many many ways the implementation could go horribly.

Budi · Jul 4, 2018

joecanada said:
Many people prefer to raise their own young children not put them in daycare. In fact many wealthy people i know never put their children in daycare and opt for some preschool instead
. Key is they obviously get a choice. No one should be forced to send a 1 year old to daycare that's the dumbest policy I've ever heard. I am in the industry and have never heard anyone advocate that.

Yeah 1 year old might be bit too young, but there was a study few years ago that starting daycare at the age of two correlated with later success in schools. This study was for Finnish kids though and didn't include immigrant families. I'd assume they would have the added benefit of picking up the language faster and better than kids not in daycare, which of course helps them a lot in later life too and not just with school.

When looking at upper secondary education enrolment at the age of 17, we can see clearly that it is associated positively with day care: children who have been in day care in early childhood are less likely to drop out of education no matter at what age they entered daycare.(M1a).

The second set of models (M2a–M2c) present the association between day care and whether a general upper secondary qualification has been obtained by the age of 20. From the first of these models, we can already see that the associations are much stronger compared to the earlier models. Children who entered day care around the age of two are on average 14 percentage points more likely to obtain a general upper secondary qualification.

http://wpsei.utu.fi/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/WPSEI9.pdf

Firmus_Anguis · Jul 4, 2018

haimon said:
That's not what the proposal is.
It's that kids from age 1 will be in daycare (for free) that is state run.
The parents that refuse to participate, thus refuse to integrate, will not receive welfare.

The parents are given a choice. A bad one, but a choice .

That's not a fucking choice. This is the government saying "your culture isn't welcome here" - "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME". How dense can you get?! A choice would be letting them actually choose, without any consequence to their welfare. And this shit will be abused! WHAT THE HELL CAN A 1-YEAR OLD LEARN?! It's disgusting is what it is. Nothing else.

Vautrin · Jul 4, 2018

TelluricTokoro said:
White people continue to be racist, classist xenophobes.

And water is wet.

Generalizing a bit are we?

TelluricTokoro · Jul 4, 2018

Vautrin said:
Generalizing a bit are we?

Nope.

Zoc · Jul 4, 2018

Are people in this thread actually defending ghettoes? Do you really want kids growing up in Denmark not knowing the language, understanding the culture, or able to fit in to society?

crimzonflame · Jul 4, 2018

Zoc said:
Are people in this thread actually defending ghettoes? Do you really want kids growing up in Denmark not knowing the language, understanding the culture, or able to fit in to society?

Why dont they teach that in school? Like ESL or something.

Zoc · Jul 4, 2018

crimzonflame said:
Why dont they teach that in school? Like ESL or something.

You mean starting at 6? As stated above, that's pretty late to start.

crimzonflame · Jul 4, 2018

Zoc said:
You mean starting at 6? As stated above, that's pretty late to start.

No its not. When I was in school in Toronto, we would constantly get students new to the country and within a couple of months they were conversing in English. This was happening all the way from grade 1 to middle school.

Zoc · Jul 4, 2018

crimzonflame said:
No its not. When I was in school in Toronto, we would constantly get students new to the country and within a couple of months they were conversing in English. This was happening all the way from grade 1 to middle school.

Fair enough. When I was six I started going to a French school, and it took me about six months to get really comfortable. However, lots of Middle Eastern kids go to my kid's elementary school here in Japan, and none of them speak Japanese that well, even though they've been here for years. Depends on the language combination, maybe.

Vautrin · Jul 4, 2018

I agree that assimilation is a problem but this is not the answer at all...

mugurumakensei · Jul 4, 2018

Firmus_Anguis said:
WHAT THE HELL CAN A 1-YEAR OLD LEARN?! It's disgusting is what it is. Nothing else.

Not that you're wrong about the rest but at around one years old is when most kids start picking up language and learning how to speak.

Deleted member 9145 · Jul 4, 2018

Was it Denmark that also banned circumcision?

Laughing Banana · Jul 4, 2018

It's plenty obvious that this is a targeted policy designed to specifically zeroing into a particular community, I don't understand why it's so hard to see that.

mugurumakensei · Jul 4, 2018

FZZ said:
Was it Denmark that also banned circumcision?

I don't know if it passed, but they are the first country that has given it serious consideration.

Deleted member 9145 · Jul 4, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
It's plenty obvious that this is a targeted policy designed to specifically zeroing into a particular community, I don't understand why it's so hard to see that.

Worst part is people are defending it tbh

Laughing Banana · Jul 4, 2018

FZZ said:
Worst part is people are defending it tbh

I guess when it happens to Muslims people are finding it a lot easier to accept.

Zoc · Jul 5, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
It's plenty obvious that this is a targeted policy designed to specifically zeroing into a particular community, I don't understand why it's so hard to see that.

It's completely explicit! Their stated goal is break up these communities, which they consider ghettoes, and integrate the occupants into mainstream society. They're not ashamed of that.

Honestly, unless they are a Danish Muslim, nobody in this thread is qualified to talk about the morality of this. In my head, I can imagine reasons progressive Muslims might support policies like these, but I really can't speculate.

haimon · Jul 5, 2018

mugurumakensei said:
I don't know if it passed, but they are the first country that has given it serious consideration.

I wonder how many of the law supporters for the no circumcision and the forced integration intersect.
Edit: here on era, I mean.

SolicitorPirate · Jul 5, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
It's plenty obvious that this is a targeted policy designed to specifically zeroing into a particular community, I don't understand why it's so hard to see that.

You know that's a fairly common thing in social policy right? Sometimes social ills and issues disproportionately effect certain demographics and communities, and resulting social policies specifically, and sometimes exclusively, target those groups

Laughing Banana · Jul 5, 2018

SolicitorPirate said:
You know that's a fairly common thing in social policy right? Sometimes social ills and issues disproportionately effect certain demographics and communities, and resulting social policies specifically, and sometimes exclusively, target those groups

Right, like how many "social policies" in the US for example are designed to target certain demographics and communities and how we all should support those as well.

Honestly? I would much prefer for the Denmark government to just flat out say, "No Muslims are allowed" instead of beating around the bush like this.

Doran · Jul 5, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
Right, like how many "social policies" in the US for example are designed to target certain demographics and communities and how we all should support those as well.

Honestly? I would much prefer for the Denmark government to just flat out say, "No Muslims are allowed" instead of beating around the bush like this.

But what if, hypothetically, they are completely fine with having muslims in the country but they just think the best thing for their country is to make sure that its citizens are raised in a way that they can contribute / sociliaze / function with the rest of the population? Not defending this specifically because I think the age is very young but yeah.

Neo C. · Jul 5, 2018

Zoc said:
Are people in this thread actually defending ghettoes? Do you really want kids growing up in Denmark not knowing the language, understanding the culture, or able to fit in to society?

How about not having ghettoes at all? The segregation is the reason the Danish have this problem in the first place.

Zoc · Jul 5, 2018

Neo C. said:
How about not having ghettoes at all? The segregation is the reason the Danish have this problem in the first place.

Right, and this is their attempt to fix that, even if it's probably misguided. I mean, if they really hated muslims, they probably wouldn't want to integrate them.

Laughing Banana · Jul 5, 2018

Doran said:
But what if, hypothetically, they are completely fine with having muslims in the country but they just think the best thing for their country is to make sure that its citizens are raised in a way that they can contribute / sociliaze / function with the rest of the population? Not defending this specifically because I think the age is very young but yeah.

Well I guess that's one method of saying that Muslims can't be trusted to raise their children to contribute/socialize/function with the rest of the population.

anamika · Jul 5, 2018

Firmus_Anguis said:
WHAT THE HELL CAN A 1-YEAR OLD LEARN?!

A one year old actually learns more than an adult.

Their brain is like a sponge soaking up information. Their new, young neurons are rapidly making connections learning human behavior, emotion, social cues, language, empathy, abstract thinking etc. 90% of a child's brain development happens before the age of five. That's why people who are usually good at something like music would have started learning or being around musical people since they are babies.

For people that are against this - are you guys fine with the women in these families, with perhaps two or three children, staying at home, all their time taken up caring for the children? Would it not be nice, if they can put their babies in daycare for like 5 hours a day - for free - so that they can have some 'me' time? Go out, relax, meet new people, get a job, be independent.

Are there any mothers commenting in this thread about how outrageous it is to force daycare on people? Or is it just men? I know working mothers and hey even non working mothers who would kill for free day care and some free time.

Neo C. · Jul 5, 2018

Zoc said:
Right, and this is their attempt to fix that, even if it's probably misguided. I mean, if they really hated muslims, they probably wouldn't want to integrate them.

I mean, it's super easy to fix that. In Switzerland, we have a quota for all regions to take asylum seekers. What happens is that we don't have one place filled with poor people, instead they are spread out. Of course the asylum seekers could move out independently once their status is cleared, but from our experience there's no point for them to move into a ghetto.

Interested Observer · Jul 5, 2018

Firmus_Anguis said:
That's not a fucking choice. This is the government saying "your culture isn't welcome here" - "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME". How dense can you get?! A choice would be letting them actually choose, without any consequence to their welfare. And this shit will be abused! WHAT THE HELL CAN A 1-YEAR OLD LEARN?! It's disgusting is what it is. Nothing else.

What can a 1 year old learn?

Have you ever been around a child before? What a question.

As for the rest of your rant, why should any country accept immigrants who aren't going to work and are just going to be a drain on the State? It doesn't make sense.

SolicitorPirate · Jul 5, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
Right, like how many "social policies" in the US for example are designed to target certain demographics and communities and how we all should support those as well.

Honestly? I would much prefer for the Denmark government to just flat out say, "No Muslims are allowed" instead of beating around the bush like this.

...I'm getting the feeling that no matter what I say, you're just going to hear what you want to hear.

That said, here goes; I design and develop public policy for a living. I can tell you for a fact that specific policies can disproportionately impact certain groups, and that is taken incredibly seriously. We have teams dedicated entirely to studying how those groups are impacted and how to improve their outcomes. I have a colleague who has spent months working to ensure the voices and stories from those impacted groups are recorded to inform more effective policy in the future. The amount of effort put in to ensure that the client is at the center of our work is enormous.

Groups and demographics behave and interact with government differently, and effective policy must take that into account. Acknowledging that reality doesn't make policy evil. In fact, it's how you ensure you actually help the people you want to help. Yes, like all things, public policy can hurt people, intentionally or otherwise. But it's ridiculous to immediately levy that charge because America is racist is whatever.

In regard to this particular Danish policy, I lack the information to conclusively judge; we don't know the evidence basis the policy officers relied on, we don't know what community consultation they engaged with and we don't know how much of the design was driven by robust policy research and evaluation, and how much was driven by politics. In lieu of that, I defer to the Danish posters in this thread, who to the best of my knowledge, have uniformly said that the originating article is overblown and hyperbolic

Morrigan · Jul 6, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
Well I guess that's one method of saying that Muslims can't be trusted to raise their children to contribute/socialize/function with the rest of the population.

? They aren't forbidding Muslims from raising their kids however they want. This program is for welfare benefits for particularly poor families. They offer welfare child benefits, but to benefit from those particular payments, the parents have to send their kids to this public daycare (which is the same daycare as any other Danish kids).

Firmus_Anguis · Jul 6, 2018

Interested Observer said:
What can a 1 year old learn?

Have you ever been around a child before? What a question.

As for the rest of your rant, why should any country accept immigrants who aren't going to work and are just going to be a drain on the State? It doesn't make sense.

Besides the language, what else can't they learn at home? What can't they eventually learn by just going to School when it's time? I learned.
Me and my parents came to Sweden when I was about 1-year old. They didn't know the language, they had just fled from their homeland. They'd left their lives behind and had to start anew from square one. Today they say welfare was essential to them; they needed it in order to survive in a completely foreign country. Some people make it out to be a luxury, but they struggled. You can afford the basic necessities of life, and that's it. They learned the language, and even then they struggled to get a job. Seldom do people want to live on welfare. And what about danes on welfare? Why the distinction? Oh, right. They have the values and the language... But wait - some of them don't want work? Hmm.
You are assuming that most of these people don't want to work, yet you have no idea. I've studied, I'm a contributing member of society, so tell me - What would be different about me had we been forced to do this? The problem with this whole debacle is that people are being dehumanized. They can't be different - They can't be children of immigrants. Yet, with how things are going in Denmark, they'll never be accepted anyway. It's shameful! And it's classic xenophobia...

hans_castorp · Jul 6, 2018

haimon said:
I wonder how many of the law supporters for the no circumcision and the forced integration intersect.
Edit: here on era, I mean.

You're aware that cosmetic circumcision is only looked at positively in the states, right?
European guidelines are against it. It's hard to find an european doctor who recommends it.

Sloth Guevara · Jul 6, 2018

Morrigan said:
? They aren't forbidding Muslims from raising their kids however they want. This program is for welfare benefits for particularly poor families. They offer welfare child benefits, but to benefit from those particular payments, the parents have to send their kids to this public daycare (which is the same daycare as any other Danish kids).

What you and many others are ignoring is the context surrounding these decisions.
The blatant racism displayed by politicians and general population in Denmark is staggering.
Tbh I just don't buy that these things are done from a place of goodness.

These laws in that context are frightening.
And as a PoC from the region it is disheartening to see people ignore the wider context while discussing this.

haimon · Jul 6, 2018

hans_castorp said:
You're aware that cosmetic circumcision is only looked at positively in the states, right?
European guidelines are against it. It's hard to find an european doctor who recommends it.

Here on era when Iceland was discussing (or passed) a law regarding banning all make circumcision until age 18 - which is specifically targeting Jews and Muslims, the law was applauded here.

I was wondering (out loud) how many of the people that were supporting a law targeting specific people then are suddenly dismayed at a different law targeting seemingly the same group.

The difference is one law outlaws a religious practice and another doesn't.

hans_castorp · Jul 6, 2018

haimon said:
Here on era when Iceland was discussing (or passed) a law regarding banning all make circumcision until age 18 - which is specifically targeting Jews and Muslims, the law was applauded here.

I was wondering (out loud) how many of the people that were supporting a law targeting specific people then are suddenly dismayed at a different law targeting seemingly the same group.

The difference is one law outlaws a religious practice and another doesn't.

Of course it was applauded. Most people in Europe are against circumcision.
It doesn't matter if it's a religious practice, it's mutilation and there is no clear medical benefit.

Morrigan · Jul 6, 2018

Sloth Guevara said:
What you and many others are ignoring is the context surrounding these decisions.
The blatant racism displayed by politicians and general population in Denmark is staggering.
Tbh I just don't buy that these things are done from a place of goodness.

These laws in that context are frightening.
And as a PoC from the region it is disheartening to see people ignore the wider context while discussing this.

There are problems with these programs, and I am not denying or defending them. But painting this as the Danish government rounding up Muslim children and putting them in Christian brainwashing centres is not based on fact. We should criticize the real, factual problems with those policies.

Nesotenso · Jul 6, 2018

"Enlightened" Europe taking racism to the next level.

Trickster · Jul 6, 2018

FZZ said:
Was it Denmark that also banned circumcision?

Not sure how that relates to this. But to answer the question, the majority of the danish population is for it afaik, but the politicians are unwilling to do it currently (pretty sure they basically want another country to do it first so they can see what the reaction to it would be)

Hesemonni · Jul 6, 2018

I guess I'm a bad parent since my child began going to daycare when he was 1 year old :(

Budi · Jul 6, 2018

mugurumakensei said:
I don't know if it passed, but they are the first country that has given it serious consideration.

Edit: Sorry, I gave wrong information so nevermind. I thought it's in effect in Iceland, but it's not apparently.

BlackLagoon · Jul 6, 2018

Trickster said:
Not sure how that relates to this. But to answer the question, the majority of the danish population is for it afaik, but the politicians are unwilling to do it currently (pretty sure they basically want another country to do it first so they can see what the reaction to it would be)

Also should be added it's not a complete ban on circumcision that's being discussed, just ban on doing it on minors. Legal adults would still be free to have the procedure done.

You Are Viewtiful · Jul 6, 2018

Racist policy from a racist party. It will only make things worse.

Sloth Guevara · Jul 6, 2018

Morrigan said:
There are problems with these programs, and I am not denying or defending them. But painting this as the Danish government rounding up Muslim children and putting them in Christian brainwashing centres is not based on fact. We should criticize the real, factual problems with those policies.

Again you aren't speaking to the context.
You want to limit the issue too policy.
But it is easier to ignore the racism if one doesn't think of the context.
Surly you can understand that the language used and these policies that are made are very worrisome for PoC?
And I would be very surprised if the vast majority effected by this aren't Muslims tbh.

Supermanisdead · Jul 7, 2018

Jesus Christ, why are so many European countries turning into racist shit holes? Can't y'all just fucking let people live their goddamn lives?

Rand a. Thor · Jul 7, 2018

So these ghetto children and ghetto parents, are they gonna wear some sort of identification sticker or something on their clothes? You know, for people to make extra sure these people are from a minority group. You can never be too careful.

MadJakeChurchill · Jul 7, 2018

Liljagare said:
In most of the areas, we have salifinists groupings.

Receipts. I always side-eye people that say they have 'Salafist' groups, because it usually means "they built a mosque".

[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’

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