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ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
It would be piss easy to write Finn and Poe out of the film entirely without missing a beat.

That shouldn't be possible. In a movie like Empire, the main plot absolutely does not work without the B plot. You know, like things should be in a movie with proper story structure.
Imagine if Finn's storyline actually had something to do with Phasma and their backstory, leading to some actual emotion in their fight. Naw, let's save some race dog/birds and accidentally meet some guy that knows how to do exactly what we need him to do, even though there was supposedly only one person who could do that, who happens to be in the exact same place, but we couldn't meet him because of some silly shenanigans.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,428
It would be piss easy to write Finn and Poe out of the film entirely without missing a beat.
tumblr_ozp461kOni1qdngnvo1_540.gif

vice-admiral-holdos-act-of-sacrifice-allows-the-resistance-shuttles-to-escape-to-crait.gif

Gj8tBrJ.gif

m1hSIsj.gif

TLJ2.gif

9fbf618eded9a9c7a381fec9086a0c8b56a70428_hq.gif


A plan not succeeding for once and having consequences does not mean that it's pointless. You cannot write Poe or Finn's actions out of the film without DRASTIC changes that require more effort than playing armchair screenwriter. But hey, at least no one has had to suffer through forum users genuinely trying to write out a scene in their "my idea is totes better than we got" scenarios.
 
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Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,151
Limburg
Best to Worst Star Wars movie (not counting the spinoffs)

Tier S++
1. Empire Strikes Back (original cut)

Tier A+
2. Return of The Jedi (original cut - yub nub)
3. Star Wars (original cut)

Tier B
4. The Force Awakens


Tier D-
5. Revenge of The Sith
6. The Last Jedi

Tier E-
7. The Phantom Menace

Tier F-----
8. Attack of the Clones

Holy shit you got so close to the perfect list. Just swap RoTS with TPM and you're good. That's the perfect order actually.
 

maximumzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,957
New Orleans, LA
Knocking out that overly critical "Tier" silliness, this is my ranking on "enjoyment" of the Star Wars franchise. Not arguing for objective film quality.

1. (TIE) Empire Strikes Back
1. (TIE) The Last Jedi
2. Star Wars
3. (TIE) Return of The Jedi
3. (TIE) The Force Awakens
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Rogue One
6. Revenge of The Sith
7. Attack of the Clones

Haven't seen Solo yet, but from what I understand of the plot, it'd probably tie with Rogue One or fall between it and Sith.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
Norman, OK
Well, OP- there are kind of three tiers to the criticisms of the film:

1.) Alt-right nutjobs who can't handle the idea of empowered female and minority characters taking center stage. Apparently, they think it's all a feminazi conspiracy hatched by Kathleen Kennedy and Satan.
2.) SW "superfans", who are some of the most toxic fuckfaces in the history of humanity, couldn't handle the idea of their precious theories about Rey's parentage, Luke's intentions and Snoke's place in the story being brushed aside by an "outsider" like Rian Johnson.
3.) Reasonable folk who had legitimate criticisms of the writing/pacing/editing of the film.

Unfortunately, #'s 1 and 2 drowned out #3 by a wide margin.
 

Deleted member 3925

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,725
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it's a great movie, but not perfect. Canto Bight was the biggest issue I had with it.
 

Jack Remington

User requested permanent ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,083
Unfortunately, #'s 1 and 2 drowned out #3 by a wide margin.

From reading these threads over the last 6 months, this doesn't seem even close to true.

Most of the criticism I've read of TLJ on this forum has focused on the shoddy storytelling and writing.

As an aside, it's perfectly valid to criticize Snoke's complete lack of characterization as shoddy storytelling, but there's plenty to criticize without even getting into that.
 

Jom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,490
People wanted Luke, to kick some ass despite being a jedi who is supposed to value pacifism and peace.

People are dumb.

There are plenty of things that are flawed in the movie, but you'll find that most of the loudest people hate the movie just because Luke didn't whip out his huge lightsaber and fuck people with it.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,133
Chile
From reading these threads over the last 6 months, this doesn't seem even close to true.

Most of the criticism I've read of TLJ on this forum has focused on the shoddy storytelling and writing.

As an aside, it's perfectly valid to criticize Snoke's complete lack of characterization as shoddy storytelling, but there's plenty to criticize without even getting into that.

Problem is that the arguments are the same over and over again. Like there isn't a talk about how dialogue is off at times ("Chewie, what are you doing here??"), or how Canto Bight is off due to the paceo of the story and being kinda out of tone with the rest of the movie. It's about Hyperspace Ram, Luke story, and Rey being against the lore and "doens't make sense", or Leia "never trained".
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,883
Because a lot of the plot was a slow-speed chase and they killed the main villain that we knew nothing about and put a new and existing character into a side story that did nothing and wasn't really fun and people were mad that Luke didn't want anything to do with the plot and erased any questions raised by Force Awakens.

That's the main stuff, I think.
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,545
I have a feeling many of the people bitching about Finn and Rose's mission failing would be the same people complaining if it had succeeded. "Oh God, once again the good guys plans worked out despite the odds. How predictable."
I didn't enjoy all aspects of The Last Jedi (and though Leia Poppins looked weird when I saw it) but it's a good entry in the series. Certainly far better than any of the prequels.
 

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,604
Ranking the Star Wars films is always fun. My own personal enjoyment:
  1. A New Hope
  2. The Empire Strikes Back
  3. The Force Awakens
  4. The Last Jedi
  5. Return of the Jedi
  6. Solo
  7. Rogue One
  8. Revenge of the Sith
  9. The Phantom Menace
  10. Attack of the Clones
I'm the only one of my friends who doesn't have Empire as #1.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Did you miss the part where Holdo's sacrifice literally did nothing but delay the FO? Apparently that point was lot on you but please tell us more about how the messaging of the film is too overt as you constantly miss the point.


So wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me that the messaging in the movie is "Don't sacrifice yourself to save others, because that's doesn't work, look at Holdo"?

Because a few minutes later we have a third character sacrificing his life (Luke) in order to stop the First Order, if the movie's messaging wasn't muddy enough.


Unless we're too assume that Luke's sacrifice is actually the only one that works, because nobody but Luke is hurt in the process, no damage to the FO is actually done and the entire thing is a scam.

At which point we have to process what makes Luke's suicide run better/more noble than Holdo's and Poe's, and boy that's a rabbit hole I fully want to explore. Surprise me.
 

Waggles

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,150
I still expect JJ to backpeddle every controversy of TLJ in the threequel.

Luke ain't dead, ya'll! Snoke's still kickin' it! With robot legs even! Final hour of the threequel will purely be lightsabers swinging around without actually touching. Ren lied about the parentage, she's actually a midiclorien baby! Just like Hayden.

Last one is probably possibly happening for sure.

Edit: rose is getting killed offscreen, or getting a complete personality wipe. Believe it.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,428
So wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me that the messaging in the movie is "Don't sacrifice yourself to save others, because that's doesn't work, look at Holdo"?
It's saying that that kind of thing doesn't always work. Just like the suicidal infiltration mission doesn't always work. Holdo was already planning on sacrificing herself when she became temporary leader of the fleet. Her plan WOULD have succeeded if it weren't for Poe, Finn and Rose's actions.

Unless we're too assume that Luke's sacrifice is actually the only one that works, because nobody but Luke is hurt in the process, no damage to the FO is actually done and the entire thing is a scam.
Luke's sacrifice is the only one that works in the film. It was a huge trick meant to distract the FO so that the rebellion could live on and eventually defeat the FO.
 

siteseer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,048
Well, OP- there are kind of three tiers to the criticisms of the film:

1.) Alt-right nutjobs who can't handle the idea of empowered female and minority characters taking center stage. Apparently, they think it's all a feminazi conspiracy hatched by Kathleen Kennedy and Satan.
2.) SW "superfans", who are some of the most toxic fuckfaces in the history of humanity, couldn't handle the idea of their precious theories about Rey's parentage, Luke's intentions and Snoke's place in the story being brushed aside by an "outsider" like Rian Johnson.
3.) Reasonable folk who had legitimate criticisms of the writing/pacing/editing of the film.

Unfortunately, #'s 1 and 2 drowned out #3 by a wide margin.
i'm #3 add bad characterizations in there, and not because of #2 or #1, just bad writing. shame too.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,074
So wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me that the messaging in the movie is "Don't sacrifice yourself to save others, because that's doesn't work, look at Holdo"?

Because a few minutes later we have a third character sacrificing his life (Luke) in order to stop the First Order, if the movie's messaging wasn't muddy enough.

Unless we're too assume that Luke's sacrifice is actually the only one that works, because nobody but Luke is hurt in the process, no damage to the FO is actually done and the entire thing is a scam.

At which point we have to process what makes Luke's suicide run better/more noble than Holdo's and Poe's, and boy that's a rabbit hole I fully want to explore. Surprise me.

We probably don't agree on liking The Last Jedi, but even as a fan of the movie it's pretty much impossible to not realize the movie's themes are muddled. The problem is that all of the characters are playing musical chairs with regards to where they start and where they need to be, with each characters arcs cris-crossing and sometimes hampering others. Basically, Finn needs to become Poe, Poe need to become like Leia and Holdo, Rose needs to become Finn, Rey has to become Luke, and Luke has to take up the mantle of Legend. All this becomes a problem when each character is told that who they start off as is wrong and they need to become more, which means that the other character who has to become like them ends up in a "wrong" position.

For example, Finn's big arc is learning to commit to the Resistance and become an actual sacrificial hero. The guy that will lead an attack against The First Order no matter how hopeless it seems. In other words, he has to become Poe. But, the movie tells us that Poe is not good enough, that a hero needs to be more, they need to be a leader that can think more than just the battle in front of them. So, Poe's arc is learning to become a real leader and that sometimes you have to retreat in order to fight another day, not everything can be solved by blowing something up. This creates a problem when Finn finally finishes his arc and becomes a committed soldier like Poe because now Poe is a leader and has to tell Finn to break off the Canto Bight attack run. Finn is now in his right place, but this place we've just been told is wrong by Poe's arc. Then we have Rose, who essentially has to become Finn. She's just a maintenance worker, she views Finn as a real hero, someone who came from nothing to save the galaxy. But, she doesn't think she can be a hero like him. At the end of the film, she's become just as much a hero as Finn and in doing so learns that you can't just right for some nebulous cause, you have to fight for something (or someone) you "love." Thus, like Finn in TFA, she becomes a true hero by finding something (or rather someone) to truly fight for. Of course, we're told at the start of the movie that Finn is wrong for trying to solely think of saving Rey. So, Rose's saving of Finn conflicts with Finn's thrust in the movie.

So yeah, there is just a lot of muddy themes going on because each character is tripping over their own arcs. It's a good movie, but a messy one.
 
OP
OP
konka

konka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,856
So wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me that the messaging in the movie is "Don't sacrifice yourself to save others, because that's doesn't work, look at Holdo"?

Because a few minutes later we have a third character sacrificing his life (Luke) in order to stop the First Order, if the movie's messaging wasn't muddy enough.


Unless we're too assume that Luke's sacrifice is actually the only one that works, because nobody but Luke is hurt in the process, no damage to the FO is actually done and the entire thing is a scam.

At which point we have to process what makes Luke's suicide run better/more noble than Holdo's and Poe's, and boy that's a rabbit hole I fully want to explore. Surprise me.

Luke is as dead as Yoda sure, who can just manifest himself and shoot lighting bolts into trees. Force ghosts might as well not be dead.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
From reading these threads over the last 6 months, this doesn't seem even close to true.

Most of the criticism I've read of TLJ on this forum has focused on the shoddy storytelling and writing.

As an aside, it's perfectly valid to criticize Snoke's complete lack of characterization as shoddy storytelling, but there's plenty to criticize without even getting into that.

Yeah, even after all the threads and discussion here, people will always go to the MRA/Butthurt superfan strawmen.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
I've seen people argue that Finn's sacrifice would've worked:
5XzwoYQ.gif

There is nothing about the scene that indicates Finn won't succeed. We are told it's a suicidal run, and that is made clear through imagery. A suicidal run doesn't imply it won't work, it merely implies Finn will go down with the laser.

The idea that Finn won't take out the laser is headcanon meant to post-rationalize Rose's actions since they don't make logical sense when considered alongside her dialogue. The speeder falling apart on the approach doesn't mean it wouldn't have succeeded. The outcome could have been written either way. We've all seen movies where demolished cars skid across the finish line. We've all seen Randy Quaid fly into that alien laser in ID. Regardless, the "it wouldn't have worked" stance is a sci-fi answer to the problem, that requires understanding of the physical properties of the speeder, the operations of the laser, etc. Stuff that can't be presented in a film. This is a narrative problem. When Rose saves Finn, she tells him he shouldn't be destroying what he hates. The implication if we are supposed to view Finn's attempt as destined to fail is that Finn hate's himself, as that is all he was going to destroy... it doesn't fit with the emotional or thematic direction of the scene at all.

Here's the ship immediately before it is knocked away from the laser, still in tact:
yZKkLTZ.png

The pieces we saw fall off were fringe pieces (ski, tiny gun). They would not have contributed to damaging the laser on impact. We specifically see the gun fall off because that is the piece that would have destroyed the cannon without Finn having to suicide. Now that it is gone, he has only one option

We can also interpret the pieces falling off of the ship as dramatic effect, since dramatic shots such as red sweaty Finn and gold laser lens flare are interspersed while we cut to heavenly music.

This scene is shot and scored just like every heroic sacrifice scene in every action movie is shot and scored. Given Rian's propensity for subversion and jerking the audience around with character deaths throughout this movie, this is most certainly intentional.

Here's the ship's position as it is knocked away:
usHAkPe.png

Based on the size of the craft, I'll be generous and say he's 40 meters from impact. Assuming these clunky old ski speeders can go no faster than a speeder bike (unlikely), Finn is at most .3 seconds from impact. It's hard to believe his speeder was going to disintegrate in a fraction of a second.

And I hate digging into meters and seconds and crap, but this isn't about nitpicking tech specs. This is the only way to quantify what people are seeing on screen; why they visually believe Finn would have succeeded

If Rose had not intervened, this scene could easily have concluded with the speeder making impact. It could also have concluded with the speeder disintegrating, but from what I'm seeing, that would've looked much more out of place. It's certainly no forgone conclusion that Finn would have failed. It could have been written either way

To top this off, Finn's speeder survives a collision with Rose and a collision with Crait, to the point that Finn is perfectly unharmed once the speeder comes to a stop. Those collisions make good, solid, loud crunching noises. This reinforces the idea that the structural integrity of the speeder was in tact .3 seconds away from impact in the audience's mind.

Bare in mind the audience has no frame of reference for how hot that pre-laser charge light thing is. Hell, they don't have a frame of reference for what it is. They also don't have any understanding of the temperature at which the speeder would melt, the force required to destroy the laser on collision, etc. None of this is part of the movie. What they understand is that the laser is deadly when it fires, and they don't see the laser fire until Finn has had time to walk away from the crash and help Rose. They also understand the laser has a weak point down the barrel

But aren't we told it won't work? Here's the full dialogue:

Rose - "There it is, that is a big gun"
- target in sight

Finn – "Okay it's heavily armored, our only shot is right down the throat. The cannon's opening, this is our chance"
- The cannon has a weak point, in a series that is famous for technological behemoths being taken down by small craft targeting a weak point, this tell's the audience something. Finn is aware of the weak point and is on a mission

Poe – "They're picking us all off, we're not gonna make it"
- Poe gives the audience information here that Finn will prove wrong. Finn does indeed make it to the cannon. Thus the audience can already find Poe's future assessments questionable
- Poe seems to be concerned about the lives of his pilots, this make sense given his failure at the beginning of the movie. It fits his arc

Finn – "allright, making my final approach, target in sight, guns are hot"
- Finn is still determined to succeed, this makes sense given Finn's arc. Finn intends to use his guns

Poe – "no, pull off, <what?> the cannon is charged, it's a suicide run. All craft pull away
- The reason given to pull away is that this is a "suicide run". This does not implicate failure, it merely implicates that the heroes will not survive if they succeed. Why is it a suicide run? We will later be shown that Finn's guns melt in the pre-laser charge. This dialogue is purposely crafted. Poe knows the only way to take out the cannons without guns is a suicide collision
- This fits with Poe's arc. We can interpret this as Poe assessing that success is not worth the lives of his crew, thus he has grown since the beginning of the film

Finn – "no I'm almost there!"
- He was </Ron Howard>
- Finn is not phased that this is a suicide run, fits his arc

Poe – "retreat Finn, that's an order"
- Told to retreat, no further reason given, fall back to prior reason, Poe does not want Finn to die

Rose – "Finn, it's too late, don't do this"
- Told it is too late, the audience sees that it is not. The cannon has not yet fired. The rebels are still protected by the blast door. Once again, the audience is questioning what they are hearing

Finn – "No! I won't let them win!"
- Finn does not want the FO to win, if they win the rebellion will end here on Crait. Still perfectly fits his arc

Rose – "No! Finn, listen to Poe, we have to retreat!"
- Do what Poe says, we have retreat. Once again, no reason given. Poe and Rose do not want Finn to die

We are simply told Finn must retreat. As happens often in this film, we see the opposite

At no point are we told Finn won't succeed, that the cannon can't be destroyed, that this won't work. The crux of this dialogue seems to be that Finn will die and his friends don't want him to die. This interpretation fits well with Poe repenting for losing his original squadron as well as with Rose's "I saved you dummy, save what you love" dialogue. It also fits well with Finn's arc, that he would be sacrificing himself to buy the rebels the time they need

Finally, Rose's stated reasoning for why she stopped Finn is "I saved you dummy, that's how we win, not fighting what we hate, saving what we love". None of this indicates Finn wouldn't have hit the gun. Rather, it indicates that Rose didn't want him to die, would prefer he live than he go down fighting.

Isn't the point of the scene to show that Finn is now selfless and devoted to a cause, whereas he began the movie wanting nothing to do with the rebellion and only wanting to find Rey? If this scene is meant to show Finn has grown, how has he grown if his motivations for destroying the cannon aren't for the greater good of the rebellion? Or even worse, if he's too dumb to understand what he's attempting won't work? How does this tie in with his decree that he is now "Rebel Scum"? I think it's clear the scene wanted to have it's cake and eat it too. Wanted to show that Finn has grown, is now selfless and devoted, but did not want him to die. The way they found to make him do that is to pretend he's about to sacrifice for the greater good, but stop him from doing it so he can still be in the next movie. Now we know 100% what drives him in part IX.

The scene loses that meaning if the idea is "Finn makes dumb decisions and Rose saved him from himself". This would have us going into IX assuming Finn will still need his hand held because he doesn't know when things will or won't work when everyone around him does. There's nothing satisfying or thematically relevant about Finn being saved from his own stupidity. I'm surprised people lean on this concept to defend this scene when it would actually make the scene even worse. I am giving the movie much deserved credit by pointing out that Finn could have succeeded

Thus, the audience has no reason visually, technically, narratively or thematically to believe Finn absolutely 100% wouldn't have succeeded. In fact, they have plenty of cues telling them the opposite, that Finn would've taken out the cannon.

It's just bad fucking film criticism that shows a startling lack of understanding and/or purposeful disingenuousness

It's not though. You can't blame the audience for everything. At a certain point, when a significant chunk of viewers are getting the wrong the idea, it's time to look at how the scene was shot and try to understand why a large chunk of the audience didn't see what you intended.

This is especially relevant when you are clearly going for a big climactic surprise. You can't bust out the angel choir, halo lights, and pensive Finn and intersperse it with cuts of forlorn Leia and company while they hear the canon is about to fire, and pretend "LOL Finn wouldn't have succeeded anyway" when you stop him right before impact. Everything about that scene points to Finn being about to save his buds. The only way to subvert those expectations would've been to actually show Finn failing, which would've really made this scene dark comedy
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,428
The idea that Finn won't take out the laser is headcanon meant to post-rationalize Rose's actions since they don't make logical sense when considered alongside her dialogue. The speeder falling apart on the approach doesn't mean it wouldn't have succeeded.
Yes it does, in the context of the film, that's what was being conveyed, a speeder was not going to stop a death star cannon, let alone do anything but at best, slightly delay the assault of the base. Period. That's the film. He can and will contribute much more than he would've if he had sacrificed himself there.
 
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Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
It would be piss easy to write Finn and Poe out of the film entirely without missing a beat.

That shouldn't be possible. In a movie like Empire, the main plot absolutely does not work without the B plot. You know, like things should be in a movie with proper story structure.

Yep. This is my main gripe with The Last Jedi. Rey's part is pretty good. There's a great amount of nuance and the ideas put forth by both Kylo Ren and Luke, about the nature of the Force and the need for Jedi/Sith in the universe, represent a meaningful contribution to the Star Wars mythos. Fans who are angry about this stuff can miss me.

The problem I have is that Poe's plot isn't well-done, and Finn's is flat-out awful. No, worse, it's unnecessary. I think Poe's plot could have been fixed with some tweaks but for Finn, Christ they just dropped the ball utterly. The entire casino thing could be removed from the film and it would be better for it.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Imagine if Finn's storyline actually had something to do with Phasma and their backstory, leading to some actual emotion in their fight. Naw, let's save some race dog/birds and accidentally meet some guy that knows how to do exactly what we need him to do, even though there was supposedly only one person who could do that, who happens to be in the exact same place, but we couldn't meet him because of some silly shenanigans.


maz said that there was only one person she trusted, not that there just one person who was able to do te job
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
Yes it does, in the context of the film, that's what was being conveyed, a speeder was not going to stop a death star cannon, let alone the assault of the base.

It is never indicated the speeder would stop the assault on the base. The whole attack on the cannon is built up by blatant exposition: "Let's just pray that big ass door holds long enough for us to get help". All Finn is trying to do is buy time until help arrives. The audience has been specifically told that the resistance has no other options

Nothing about the film indicates that a speeder wouldn't have destroyed the cannon. Rather, we are told the cannon has a weak point "right down the throat" in a series where weak points are generally indications that tech can be taken down. Rather we are shown with visuals and score that what Finn is about to do is selfless, not stupid.

I have clearly illustrated how in the context of the film it could (and likely does) appear that Finn would indeed have succeeded. At the very least it could've been written either way

Yes it does, in the context of the film, that's what was being conveyed, a speeder was not going to stop a death star cannon, let alone do anything but at best, slightly delay the assault of the base. Period. That's the film. He can and will contribute much more than he would've if he had sacrificed himself there.

And since I missed your edit...

let alone do anything but at best, slightly delay the assault of the base.

We completely agree here. Finn's only goal with the suicide ram is to delay the assault of the base. This is established. The whole point of taking out the cannon is to allow the resistance to wait for help. All of this is told to the audience, by the movie
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,428
maz said that there was only one person she trusted, not that there just one person who was able to do te job
Details, smetails, not paying attention to the dialogue of the film is the first proper step to properly criticizing and analyzing it.

It is never indicated the speeder would stop the assault on the base. The whole attack on the cannon is built up by blatant exposition: "Let's just pray that big ass door holds long enough for us to get help". All Finn is trying to do is buy time until help arrives. The audience has been specifically told that the resistance has no other options
We're literally shown after the run fails that no one was coming to hekp. It would've been a pointless sacrifice. Luke's sacrifice has merit in how it's so effective that it's able to bring hope to the galaxy. How do you imagine kids talking about Finn if he had died?

"And the Finn drove his speeder into the death star cannon and it didn't work and/or only delayed the inevitable."
 

Ninjimbo

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,731
I don't know that it was controversial but it was certainly very boring for me. I couldn't wait for it to finish.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,151
Limburg
Do you disagree? I can't think of a movie that had a reception this extreme. Sorry if that sounds like I am trying to be above the fray, I hated the movie and have said why a dozen times already.

It's an XKCD deep cut
atheists.png


And I think many people here seem capable of discussing why this film is or isn't bad. Demonizing one or both sides doesn't add anything. It's just extraneous to people trying to discuss why they think it is or isn't bad legitimately. I see plenty of posts here with reasonable posts about what they like in the film. Even if I disagree, at least they're within reason and I can see their position. I see people in here with legitimate reasons to dislike the film that have nothing to do with the diversity of the cast or the faithfulness to old SW canon. There are serious pacing and writing issues in this film that have nothing to do with "checkboxes" or whatever anti-sjw stuff some people take issue with. The acting in this film is subpar compared to TFA. The same actors perform worse IMO which leads me to believe the director could have done better and the script wasn't doing them any favors. I'm capable of hearing what those that like the film have I say without calling them suckups or whatever. There is such a thing as nuance in film critique.
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
I think the point was that even if what Finn tried to do worked, the cost of his sacrifice would've been greater than what he had accomplished. Same thing with Poe, at first he was enacting plans that, while worked, were horribly inefficient but at the he was trying to call off the attack because he was learning to recognize that the losses were becoming less and less worth it (which shows that he's becoming a better leader towards the end).
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
It would be piss easy to write Finn and Poe out of the film entirely without missing a beat.

That shouldn't be possible. In a movie like Empire, the main plot absolutely does not work without the B plot. You know, like things should be in a movie with proper story structure.

Oh yeah I mentioned this earlier (specifically Han and Leia's plotline in Empire vs Finn and Poe's in Last Jedi and why one succeeds and the other fails at making us care what's going on) but rather than concede it was a good point, the person I was debating with decided to simply stop posting.

You are totally right, at any rate. The whole point of the Cloud City scenes in Empire is that it's a trap set by Vader to lure out Luke. The climax of the movie demanded Luke be at Cloud City for the showdown with Vader and using Han and Leia to get him there was really clever. It just so happens that those scenes also work very well on their own, investing us in the chase and foreshadowed betrayal.

Rey only showed up on Crait because it was where Snoke's fleet was headed. It had nothing to do with Finn or Poe. I don't even remember if she knew Finn and Poe were on Snoke's ship at the same time she was.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
People wanted Luke, to kick some ass despite being a jedi who is supposed to value pacifism and peace.

People are dumb.

There are plenty of things that are flawed in the movie, but you'll find that most of the loudest people hate the movie just because Luke didn't whip out his huge lightsaber and fuck people with it.

Luke killed hundreds of people in Return of the Jedi.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Oh yeah I mentioned this earlier (specifically Han and Leia's plotline in Empire vs Finn and Poe's in Last Jedi and why one succeeds and the other fails at making us care what's going on) but rather than concede it was a good point, the person I was debating with decided to simply stop posting.

You are totally right, at any rate. The whole point of the Cloud City scenes in Empire is that it's a trap set by Vader to lure out Luke. The climax of the movie demanded Luke be at Cloud City for the showdown with Vader and using Han and Leia to get him there was really clever. It just so happens that those scenes also work very well on their own, investing us in the chase and foreshadowed betrayal.

Rey only showed up on Crait because it was where Snoke's fleet was headed. It had nothing to do with Finn or Poe. I don't even remember if she knew Finn and Poe were on Snoke's ship at the same time she was.

come on, she went to crait because she knew the resistance was there, and with the resistance, Poe, Finn, Leia..

Luke killed hundreds of people in Return of the Jedi.

he killed thousands in a new hope
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,732
I think the point was that even if what Finn tried to do worked, the cost of his sacrifice would've been greater than what he had accomplished. Same thing with Poe, at first he was enacting plans that, while worked, were horribly inefficient but at the he was trying to call off the attack because he was learning to recognize that the losses were becoming less and less worth it (which shows that he's becoming a better leader towards the end).
Well Finn dying wouldn't have been worth it PERSONALLY to Poe and Rose but it would have been worth it in terms of the big picture in saving the rebels from complete annihilation.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
We're literally shown after the run fails that no one was coming to hekp. It would've been a pointless sacrifice.

Yes, once again we are completely agreeing. After the run fails, we learn no help is coming, not before. Thus, Finn, the rebels, and the audience still believe Finn needs to take out that cannon when he is trying to take it out. We are shown this, right before Finn is saved, when they cut to Leia and co. fretting over the cannon. You can't expect the audience to be interpreting a scene based on future information, that's really bizarre. The film builds this moment for the audience by specifically painting things as if the rebels need Finn to succeed

As far as the audience is concerned during that scene, it would absolutely not have been a pointless sacrifice. The movie has literally told us otherwise

Luke's sacrifice has merit in how it's so effective that it's able to bring hope to the galaxy. How do you imagine kids talking about Finn if he had died?

Luke's sacrifice does exactly the same thing Finn's would have for the resistance. It buys them time. Once again, the movie literally tells us this. Poe says something like "He's buying us time" concerning Luke. We don't know what would've happened if Finn succeeded, but we can certainly imagine the exact same situation being written after Finn collides. The cannon is gone, the empire can't get through the blast doors, the rebellion manages to escape out the back while the FO is trying to get in the front.

Kids talking about Finn could've been exactly the same. Instead of playing with a Luke toy at the end, they play with a Finn toy and have him run into some big monster and take it out. Why would this be a point of contention? Both Luke and Finn would be sacrificing themselves so the resistance has time to escape

"And the Finn drove his speeder into the death star cannon and it didn't work and/or only delayed the inevitable."

And here we are agreeing again. The idea that Finn would drive his speeder into a cannon and it wouldn't work is a lame concept to include in a movie. So why argue that it was their when it wasn't?

and we have poe saying that what he is doing wont work and is stupid, and the speeder being destroyed as he goes, but sure dude, the music totally indicates he will succeed

I broke down Poe's dialogue from this scene in my prior post, he never says it won't work. He says it's suicide. Poe does not want Finn to die (and neither do I, in case you are getting the wrong idea)

The speeder is not getting destroyed, I broke that down in prior post as well. It survives two impacts and Finn doesn't have a scratch, why would it have melted in a fraction of a second?

and yes, the music, visuals, and tone of that scene are absolutely setting Finn up for a noble sacrifice. Just imagine how the scene would look after that setup if Finn wasn't saved and still failed, with all of the rest of the tonality in tact. It would be a hilariously jilted dark comedy scene

I think the point was that even if what Finn tried to do worked, the cost of his sacrifice would've been greater than what he had accomplished. Same thing with Poe, at first he was enacting plans that, while worked, were horribly inefficient but at the he was trying to call off the attack because he was learning to recognize that the losses were becoming less and less worth it (which shows that he's becoming a better leader towards the end).

We completely agree. This is what I said in my post. Poe did not believe taking out the cannon was worth losing Finn. This fits all character arcs

I am simply dispelling the myth that Finn would never have succeeded anyway, that some people for some reason think would make the movie better
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,428
Luke killed hundreds of people in Return of the Jedi.
When? Luke used himself as bait. If he couldn't redeem Vader he was gonna sacrifice himself by dying on the Death Star.

Yes, once again we are completely agreeing. After the run fails, we learn no help is coming, not before. Thus, Finn, the rebels, and the audience still believe Finn needs to take out that cannon when he is trying to take it out. We are shown this, right before Finn is saved, when they cut to Leia and co. fretting over the cannon. You can't expect the audience to be interpreting a scene based on future information, that's really bizarre. The film builds this moment for the audience by specifically painting things as if the rebels need Finn to succeed
When events happen after an event in a film you get the point of what came before it. We learn that Finn's sacrifice wouldn't have helped things because no one was coming anyway. Rose was right when she stopped him. A major point of the climax is seeing the result of what happens when a suicidal plan doesn't actually work. It also reinforced the fact that Finn as a person has changed as the Finn at the start of the film would never have tried to sacrifice himself for the resistance.
 

LegendofLex

Member
Nov 20, 2017
5,478
There is nothing about the scene that indicates Finn won't succeed. We are told it's a suicidal run, and that is made clear through imagery. A suicidal run doesn't imply it won't work, it merely implies Finn will go down with the laser.
At the same time, the film just got done hammering our throats that there's no point in throwing a bunch of human lives against an enemy weapon if at the end of the day the enemy has more weapons in the wings anyway and you can protect more lives by avoiding an unnecessary fight.

This is a lesson Finn didn't get the chance to learn yet, but it's one that Poe (and Rose) definitely understood.

Luke killed hundreds of people in Return of the Jedi.

If you're talking about the Sail Barge, RotJ makes it super clear in his final heroic act that this wasn't what made him a Jedi.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
At the same time, the film just got done hammering our throats that there's no point in throwing a bunch of human lives against an enemy weapon if at the end of the day the enemy has more weapons in the wings anyway and you can protect more lives by avoiding an unnecessary fight.

This is a lesson Finn didn't get the chance to learn yet, but it's one that Poe (and Rose) definitely understood.


this is correct, those 12 speeders didnt do anything, like anything, neither did those soldiers who went out to attack, they just died, and the gate still was blown open
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
At the same time, the film just got done hammering our throats that there's no point in throwing a bunch of human lives against an enemy weapon if at the end of the day the enemy has more weapons in the wings anyway and you can protect more lives by avoiding an unnecessary fight.

This is a lesson Finn didn't get the chance to learn yet, but it's one that Poe (and Rose) definitely understood.

This is fine. I'm not arguing against this.

Once again, I say this in my post. Poe makes a decision to call off the attack because he does not want to lose lives.

I am contending the idea that Finn wouldn't have succeeded. I am explicitly stating that the scene works better with the movie's themes if Finn would have succeeded
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,428
At the same time, the film just got done hammering our throats that there's no point in throwing a bunch of human lives against an enemy weapon if at the end of the day the enemy has more weapons in the wings anyway and you can protect more lives by avoiding an unnecessary fight.

This is a lesson Finn didn't get the chance to learn yet, but it's one that Poe (and Rose) definitely understood.
They also reinfornce this when everyone returns, the idea of Finn being a sacrificial soldier while Poe needs to be not just a good leader, but a SMART leader. When they watch Luke take on the FO, Finn jumps into action and starts walking forward saying that they need to help him, Poe stops him as he realizes that Luke has a different idea in mind.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
At the same time, the film just got done hammering our throats that there's no point in throwing a bunch of human lives against an enemy weapon if at the end of the day the enemy has more weapons in the wings anyway and you can protect more lives by avoiding an unnecessary fight.

This is a lesson Finn didn't get the chance to learn yet, but it's one that Poe (and Rose) definitely understood.



If you're talking about the Sail Barge, RotJ makes it super clear in his final heroic act that this wasn't what made him a Jedi.
I'm not sure the final fight on Crait could really be described as "unnecessary". As BetterOffEd points out, defending the gate was the only real course of action for the Resistance at that point in time.