Black Panther and the Importance of Inclusion

whiskas_fanatic · Jul 8, 2018

Enzom21 said:
Can you post the exact quote where Killmonger made racist statements or him talking about killing people and kids based on their skin color?

Edit:

So have you actually seen the movie or are you just basing your statements on things you've read about it?

Nice find in post history. Yes, I've changed my mind and checked it out after, I don't lie, my friend told me about Killmonger and what he does in the movie. I didn't believe and had to see it myself.

Of course I'll find quote for you later today. It's in Throne Room right after he arrives to Vakanda.

Akainu said:
honestly I just wish he showed a little regret over killing black people. Cause he was talking the talk but he clearly didn't care.

Also that. He did lot of insane shit right in the movie, even more in his past, and planned to do even more in the future - yet somehow there is people who are thinking none of that matters, because of his last quote.

AnansiThePersona · Jul 8, 2018

I loved Black Panther too and I hope it opens the way for more cool black fantasy stories. It was a real special film. I didn't know how important representation was to me in these movies until I walked out of that theater for the first time. Glad that this proves how profitable a minority led Hollywood blockbuster movie can be and we will definitely be getting more in the future.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

No fictional white children were harmed on set by Killmonger during filming.

He didn't even say he wanted to kill whites; he said he would kill those in power, their children and anyone that sides with them

y'all should be so concerned about actual racists threatening & killing real people. Don't concern troll over complex fictional characters being well received like it's some threat to white people

Fox News level bullshit crying about some fictional white babies while an actual overtly white supremacist White House administration terrorizes real people... get your head out of your ass and get some perspective, gotdamn

whiskas_fanatic · Jul 8, 2018

Enzom21 Found it:

Killmonger said:
You know, where I'm from, when black folks started revolutions, they never had the firepower, or the resources to fight their oppressors. Where was Wakanda? Hmm? Yeah, all that ends today. We got spies embedded in every nation on Earth. Already in place. I know how colonizers think. So we're gonna use their own strategy against 'em. We're gonna send vibranium weapons out to our War Dogs. They'll arm oppressed people all over the world ... so they can finally rise up and kill those in power. And their children. And anyone else who takes their side.

Sure you can try and spin it in some or other ways but he clearly talks about opressors and colonizers as opposed to black people, so you understand perfectly fine what he means. And then, sure, I can understad his anger to some degree, he is in right to fight opressors of his folk - but that children line? He can go fuck himself and then jump in the ocean.

Elegant Weapon said:
No fictional white children were harmed on set by Killmonger during filming.

He didn't even say he wanted to kill whites; he said he would kill those in power, their children and anyone that sides with them

y'all should be so concerned about actual racists threatening & killing real people. Don't concern troll over complex fictional characters being well received like it's some threat to white people

Fox News level bullshit crying about some fictional white babies while an actual overtly white supremacist White House administration terrorizes real people... get your head out of your ass and get some perspective, gotdamn

We are talking about fictional character in a thread about a movie - please leave your whataboutism outside.

Enzom21 · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Enzom21 Found it:

Sure you can try and spin it in some or other ways but he clearly talks about opressors and colonizers as opposed to black people, so you understand perfectly fine what he means. And then, sure, I can understad his anger to some degree, he is in right to fight opressors of his folk - but that children line? He can go fuck himself and then jump in the ocean.

We are talking about fictional character in a thread about a movie - please leave your whataboutism outside.

Hey look at that, he didn't say shit about the skin color of the people he wanted to kill. He talks about black people starting revolutions but nothing about any other race.
He is talking about oppressors not any specific race but since you think he is, which race is he referring to? If he was talking about a specific race, why do you think he didn't just come out and say it?

Deepthought_ · Jul 8, 2018

Akainu said:
honestly I just wish he showed a little regret over killing black people. Cause he was talking the talk but he clearly didn't care.

I remember him going on a rant talking about killing his own people to get to where he was at and him showing frustration in doing that.

He was kind of like Thanos to Gamora he didn't want to but he felt he had to as wrong as it was

DigitalOp · Jul 8, 2018

Enzom21 said:
More relatable?

How you get banned while I'm sleep but claim I'm the mad one?

Smh

whiskas_fanatic last time I checked, alot of black children were slaughtered throughout actual history. You know, actual blood, actual lives lost. Still continues in the modern day when Trayvonn couldn't get his snacks and walk home. Micahel Brown couldn't make it home from the store. John Crawford got swatted at Walmart. The list continues on and on.

So forgive us if fictional white children ain't really that super high of importance. That response you're having to that line? We wish people gave a 1/4 of that energy when it comes to our lives, you know in actual reality (not a film). Hence why Killmonger (a villian mind you) is so invigorating to watch. Because he's had enough and he's the embodiment of Black Anger. He's the response when nobody gave a damn about our children in the first place.

All of our dead kids got scorn and a bunch of "they deserved it" claims.

Keep in mind, TChalla saved those fictional white kids, I'm sure they will be fine.

Fallout-NL · Jul 8, 2018

I didn't like the movie all that much tbh. In painting Killmonger as the bad guy, it seemed counter revolutionary to me. Also, I felt that it was very odd for Wakandan society to spiral out of control and into civil war at the drop of a hat. Odd also to lean on that as a plot device. I expected more in light of the massive praise. A lot more.

SonofDonCD · Jul 8, 2018

Akainu said:
He stopped part killmonger's main agenda.story of pretty much all indigenous peoples that Columbus stuff for instance is infuriating.

I knew someone would bring this up and I was going to address it in my roomy, but I write tomes for posts and it was getting long.

Did he, though? While technically he did, let's play this out: if he wasn't there to destroy those cargo ships what would've happened? Most likely they go to the War Dogs, but as soon as they reached them, maybe even before, Killmonger's reign over Wakanda will have been over. T'Challa would just call them off, and since he's their king, they'd listen and obey. So while there might be somewhat of a need to clean up, ultimately Ross would've prevented little.

Beyond that, if it wasn't for Shuri demanding and then guiding him every step of the way through piloting that ship, he would've been nothing but a liability to the battle. He had very little agency, beyond choosing to stay in the Laboratory to finish the job.

Fallout-NL said:
I didn't like the movie all that much tbh. In painting Killmonger as the bad guy, it seemed counter revolutionary to me. Also, I felt that it was very odd for Wakandan society to spiral out of control and into civil war at the drop of a hat. Odd also to lean on that as a plot device. I expected more in light of the massive praise. A lot more.

I think few people realize they were setting this up from the beginning. W'kabi espoused these same thoughts in his talk with T'Challa on the rhino farm. So it makes sense that some other Wakandans believe it as well, especially as W'kabi is the leader of the Border tribe. His people more than any other Wakandan beyond the War Dogs see and interact with the outside world. It would stand to reason some may not like outsiders for it.

If seems fast, and it is, but it's there. And even if you don't agree, you can just say that their king said to do it, so they did. But like I said, W'kabi really did believe in Killmonger's cause.

whiskas_fanatic · Jul 8, 2018

Enzom21 said:
Hey look at that, he didn't say shit about the skin color of the people he wanted to kill. He talks about black people starting revolutions but nothing about any other race.
He is talking about oppressors not any specific race but since you think he is, which race is he referring to? If he was talking about a specific race, why do you think he didn't just come out and say it?

Ha talks about oppressors and colonizers of black people, please figure out what race and skin color he's talking about. As I said, you can try to spin it if you want, but please notice that people around talking about white babies exactly, and not about some abstract babies.

DigitalOp said:
How you get banned while I'm sleep but claim I'm the mad one?

Smh

whiskas_fanatic last time I checked, alot of black children were slaughtered throughout actual history. You know, actual blood, actual lives lost. Still continues in the modern day when Trayvonn couldn't get his snacks and walk home. Micahel Brown couldn't make it home from the store. John Crawford got swatted at Walmart. The list continues on and on.

So forgive us if fictional white children ain't really that super high of importance. That response you're having to that line? We wish people gave a 1/4 of that energy when it comes to our lives, you know in actual reality (not a film). Hence why Killmonger (a villian mind you) is so invigorating to watch. Because he's had enough and he's the embodiment of Black Anger. He's the response when nobody gave a damn about our children in the first place.

All of our dead kids got scorn and a bunch of "they deserved it" claims.

Keep in mind, TChalla saved those fictional white kids, I'm sure they will be fine.

Believe me, I understand that life of black people can be horrible in America. That whole "... while black" is insane to me, neither my homeland, not country I'm currently live in has nothing like that. I honestly can say that I can't imagine what that movie means to you. I also understand that Killmonger (damn that name is hilarious in context of discussion) as character has some positives. But I cant get over this "children" line - it just erases everything where he made any sense. Even the yonglings! But turns out, for some people it's ok to potentially slaughter some white children, and he was right. That's what i can't wrap my head around.
P.s. We are talking about fiction here, but people talking that his idea was all right, applying it to the real world, that's why I'm taking it so serious.

Deleted member 1248 · Jul 8, 2018

Pearl Clutching 101.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic no one cares about your opinion. The film wasn't for you. Fuck your concern trolling

EdibleKnife · Jul 8, 2018

I find it hard to care about people being fans of Killmonger when one of the most popular film characters is a fascist, genocidal white man with the power to choke people from a distance and force them to do as he bids. If black people were going to be "radicalized" killing white children, we had myriad opportunities before the introduction of Black Panther. People who are scared by people being fans of Killmonger should admit what they're really afraid of and not hide their "concerns" behind stressing over a fictional character.

T'Chakku · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Ha talks about oppressors and colonizers of black people, please figure out what race and skin color he's talking about. As I said, you can try to spin it if you want, but please notice that people around talking about white babies exactly, and not about some abstract babies.

Believe me, I understand that life of black people can be horrible in America. That whole "... while black" is insane to me, neither my homeland, not country I'm currently live in has nothing like that. I honestly can say that I can't imagine what that movie means to you. I also understand that Killmonger (damn that name is hilarious in context of discussion) as character has some positives. But I cant get over this "children" line - it just erases everything where he made any sense. Even the yonglings! But turns out, for some people it's ok to potentially slaughter some white children, and he was right. That's what i can't wrap my head around.
P.s. We are talking about fiction here, but people talking that his idea was all right, applying it to the real world, that's why I'm taking it so serious.

Jesus fucking Christ!
Nobody likes Killmonger because they wanted him to kill white babies. The fucking movie denounces his methods. Is it that surprising that people would relate to a character who is based on the historical perspective of slave descendants?

Media is filled with characters with questionable morals who are popular because audiences relate to them in some way. Look at how people love mobster movies, for example.

People love a good villain. One who goes outside the boundaries of society. One they can understand even if they dont agree with their morals or methods. This has been a thing in stories since forever. We've had decades of white villains in white dominated media who connect to people on some personal level.

No one is thinking of killing you or your white babies.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

EdibleKnife said:
I find it hard to care about people being fans of Killmonger when one of the most popular film characters is a fascist, genocidal white man with the power to choke people from a distance and force them to do as he bids.

That slaughtered children and was literally redeemed at the end by the hero in the end.

Also, an actual real life racist genocidal maniac is president with many fans. It's almost like what happens and is still happening in real life makes Killmonger more sympathetic and understandable....!

whiskas_fanatic · Jul 8, 2018

T'Chakku said:
No one is thinking of killing you or your white babies.

Sure, read this thread and tell me how nobody is thinking about that, I dare you.

T'Chakku · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Sure, read this thread and tell me how nobody is thinking about that, I dare you.

Quote and respond to my whole fucking post. Then we can have an actual discussion.

Enzom21 · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Ha talks about oppressors and colonizers of black people, please figure out what race and skin color he's talking about. As I said, you can try to spin it if you want, but please notice that people around talking about white babies exactly, and not about some abstract babies.

Stop dancing around what you mean and tell who he's talking about.

He talks of arming "oppressed people" does he not? Are people in countries with dictators not oppressed? Would he not send weapons to the citizens of North Korea, how about Syrian citizens or any other country ruled by a dictator?
You think he's was only going to arm black people around the world, even in place where there are no black people?

Now as far as the "and their children" line, I interpreted it as him talking about killing the children of dictators who often times succeed their parents as the de facto rulers of a country.
See you expected this movie to be anti-white and your misinterpretation of Killmonger confirmed that bias for you.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

I know a lot of people don't want to listen to what "the other" genuinely have to say about our own experiences but BP being written by black men, directed by a black man with a majority black cast with a huge budget and marketing campaign really rubbed a lot of non-black people the wrong way; especially that people worldwide embraced the film.

People turn into Jim Crow era fine art movie critics over this film with the craziest takes. I made a thread about it around when the film released and it hasn't stopped.

This film is definitely underrated by people who have a hard time seeing black people as 100% human beings so their just gonna to misinterpret a lot based on that. Like the assholes who put down the dancing at the waterfalls as if people don't dance at all kinds of ceremonies worldwide.

Their minds are closed and their hearts are empty.

whiskas_fanatic · Jul 8, 2018

Enzom21 said:
Stop dancing around what you mean and tell who he's talking about.

He talks of arming "oppressed people" does he not? Are people in countries with dictators not oppressed? Would he not send weapons to the citizens of North Korea, how about Syrian citizens or any other country ruled by a dictator?
You think he's was only going to arm black people around the world, even in place where there are no black people?

Now as far as the "and their children" line, I interpreted it as him talking about killing the children of dictators who often times succeed their parents as the de facto rulers of a country.
See you expected this movie to be anti-white and your misinterpretation of Killmonger confirmed that bias for you.

So, you think insane black leader who talks about black people who was oppressed, and how it ends now, and oppressors and colonizers would suffer, gives a shit about north koreans? He very clearly talks about black people, who had no chance until magical vibranium.

T'Chakku said:
Quote and respond to my whole fucking post. Then we can have an actual discussion.

Yes, T'Chakku, forgive me my mistake. You can relate or connect to villain as long as you want, but I think there must be some line where people say "ok, he was insane of course, but that ocean quote was really powerful to me on personal level" - I can understand that. Instead there are tons of people who unironically saying that "Killmonger was right". I'm talking about that.

Now, if that answer was good enough, please read thread I linked in previous post and tell me if someone want to kill me irl.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

This is a thread about media representation, not how Killmonger made a random white guy feel. Fuck off

This derail has gone on long enough

TerminusFox · Jul 8, 2018

Villain of a movie says and does villainous things that are morally reprehensible because he thinks he's the good guy .

Someone stop the presses for this revolutionary concept

whiskas_fanatic · Jul 8, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
This is a thread about media representation, not how Killmonger made a random white guy feel. Fuck off

This derail has gone on long enough

For someone who don't cares for my opinion you are trying too hard. Either write something meaningful, or GTFO.

Enzom21 · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
So, you think insane black leader who talks about black people who was oppressed, and how it ends now, and oppressors and colonizers would suffer, gives a shit about north koreans? He very clearly talks about black people, who had no chance until magical vibranium.

Still not brave enough to actually say white people, huh? If you're going to be disingenuous the least you can do is not be a coward about it.
So you really think he wouldn't have sent weapons to countries in Africa with black dictators?

I get it, you had no desire to see this movie (which I still don't think you've seen) because of whatever bias you hold and no amount discussion will change your belief that this movie is anti-white. I'm done entertaining your nonsense.

EdibleKnife · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Yes, T'Chakku, forgive me my mistake. You can relate or connect to villain as long as you want, but I think there must be some line where people say "ok, he was insane of course, but that ocean quote was really powerful to me on personal level" - I can understand that. Instead there are tons of people who unironically saying that "Killmonger was right". I'm talking about that.

Now, if that answer was good enough, please read thread I linked in previous post and tell me if someone want to kill me irl.

Now tell me what is the actual issue with that? People unironically say Walter White was right. People unironically idolize Tony Soprano. People unironically empathize with Kylo Ren. Unless there's an actual white hunting group of black people around, I'm not sure what there is to stress over. Killmonger isn't about to incite a race war. Unless someone actually threatened you then like I said before, you should be analyzing why Killmonger in specific stresses you out when there are villains throughout media who've said/done worse and yet are still counted as idols.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

Mods are being ridiculous allowing this troll to derail this thread meanwhile Shy got banned?

That's bullshit

Eidan · Jul 8, 2018

I'm always amazed by how powerful white fear of black retribution is.

DigitalOp · Jul 8, 2018

I think the response that Killmonger brings out from white audiences is rather facinating.

To expand on EdibleKnife s excellent point, if Darth Vader and Erik were able to be manifested in reality, you would find alot of White people actively interacting with Vader, completely ignoring his depiction of being a facist space Nazi.

And that's mainly because though he's a villian, he's depicted to be cool. With iconic characteristics and mannerisms.

When it comes to Erik, I'm seeing White people respond with actual fear, almost like a horror movie monster. He depiction is somewhat monstrous. He cares about nothing. Until.... You see that he did care about the loss of his father. He cared about loss in general. Everything his people lost.

But whats interesting is how that gets ignored for white audiences as they latch on to his anger and his imposing prescence.

There is a real fear of black retaliation. Because alot of white people know the score is woefully uneven and do everything in their power to maintain the order because of the idea that what was done would be done onto them.

It's really fascinating

litebrite · Jul 8, 2018

My White fragility senses are tingling.

T'Chakku · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
So, you think insane black leader who talks about black people who was oppressed, and how it ends now, and oppressors and colonizers would suffer, gives a shit about north koreans? He very clearly talks about black people, who had no chance until magical vibranium.

Yes, T'Chakku, forgive me my mistake. You can relate or connect to villain as long as you want, but I think there must be some line where people say "ok, he was insane of course, but that ocean quote was really powerful to me on personal level" - I can understand that. Instead there are tons of people who unironically saying that "Killmonger was right". I'm talking about that.

Now, if that answer was good enough, please read thread I linked in previous post and tell me if someone want to kill me irl.

Killmonger was, on some level, right. It's why T'Challa goes from being neutral on Wakanda coming out of hiding and giving foreign aid.

Loki is a murderous, power-hungry maniac but people like and relate to to his experience of feeling inadequate next to his sibling and thinking he doesn't belong among his family. Plus, he's charismatic.

Vulture steals, sells weapons on the black market, threatens a teenage Peter and tries to kill him. But people understand his perspective of stealing from the rich after getting screwed over despite playing by the rules.

Magneto is probably the closest to Killmonger as a villain. A Jewish concentration camp/genocide survivor, he's both villain and hero to his people. As much a freedom fighter as he is a terrorist.

Killmonger murders people, violently assaults women and seeks world domination and the movie condems him for that. But he is also a vehicle for the story of slave descendants in the West who who've lived under the oppression of white supremacy.

He has just as much right to exist in our media as much as any other villain and people have just as much right to relate to his background, fustration and pain as much as people have related to any other villain, regardless of how much it strokes your white fear.

NoName999 · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Enzom21 Found it:

Sure you can try and spin it in some or other ways but he clearly talks about opressors and colonizers as opposed to black people, so you understand perfectly fine what he means. And then, sure, I can understad his anger to some degree, he is in right to fight opressors of his folk - but that children line? He can go fuck himself and then jump in the ocean.

You do know that Killmonger is the VILLAIN, right?

Like why does Killmonger bother some people so damn much? He's a bad person. He does bad things. He has bad thoughts. But most importantly, he DIED because of the consequences of his actions.

Fuck, notice how Mangeto doesn't get this much flack despite basically being Killmonger Original Version. Fuck, Ultron doesn't catch flack for his "kill all humans" stance.

Deleted member 1248 · Jul 8, 2018

DigitalOp said:
I think the response that Killmonger brings out from white audiences is rather facinating.

To expand on EdibleKnife s excellent point, if Darth Vader and Erik were able to be manifested in reality, you would find alot of White people actively interacting with Vader, completely ignoring his depiction of being a facist space Nazi.

And that's mainly because though he's a villian, he's depicted to be cool. With iconic characteristics and mannerisms.

When it comes to Erik, I'm seeing White people respond with actual fear, almost like a horror movie monster. He depiction is somewhat monstrous. He cares about nothing. Until.... You see that he did care about the loss of his father. He cared about loss in general. Everything his people lost.

But whats interesting is how that gets ignored for white audiences as they latch on to his anger and his imposing prescence.

There is a real fear of black retaliation. Because alot of white people know the score is woefully uneven and do everything in their power to maintain the order because of the idea that what was done would be done onto them.

It's really fascinating

To bring this back around on topic, your point also speaks to why representation is so important because audiences aren't really numb to a black power fantasy. When a John Wick comes around it's really only special because of it's style but not it's content, because ultimately it's just another white guy kills everybody who did him wrong movie, and we've been getting those forever. A Kill bill happens and we appreciate the novelty of it because female power fantasies of that nature are a little more rare. People will unironically root for these mass murderers and not think twice about it because it's not really upsetting the status quo and we don't overtly connect it with the potential for real world violence.

When Black Panther pops off and there's this cultural explosion, it owes a lot to the power fantasy aspect, not only as far as Killmonger is concerned, but T'Challa as a king, Okoye as a warrior, Shuri as a scientist, and Wakanda as a wealthy nation. That some people would get hung up on Killmonger when the majority of the power on display is actually on the side of the protagonists highlights the problem of a lack representation. Some people could just roll with Killmonger the way they would John Wick or The Bride, but that shock to the system tugs at those racial biases to the point that it manifests a real discomfort - a discomfort that largely isn't present when white killers do and say the same kinds of things, because of the numbness that results from an imbalance of representation on their side.

EdibleKnife · Jul 8, 2018

NoName999 said:
You do know that Killmonger is the VILLAIN, right?

Like why does Killmonger bother some people so damn much? He's a bad person. He does bad things. He has bad thoughts. But most importantly, he DIED because of the consequences of his actions.

Fuck, notice how Mangeto doesn't get this much flack despite basically being Killmonger Original Version. Fuck, Ultron doesn't catch flack for his "kill all humans" stance.

He hits too close too home for some people and that's the long and short of it. Like multiple posters have pointed out, the people who bray over how "dangerous" he is and how they "worried" about how fans like him is that they're personally deeply afraid of black retribution in general. They don't think black people can enjoy a character motivated by actual hurt without influencing us to make their nightmare scenario of white oppression come true. So they hide their intentions and chide Killmonger fans and insinuate something dangerous about them, ignoring the character's context and framing in the story and invent foolish nonsense about him being somehow more harmful than the multitude of white villains (and even heroes) who've said and done much worse throughout the media landscape.

litebrite · Jul 8, 2018

The Kree said:
To bring this back around on topic, your point also speaks to why representation is so important because audiences aren't really numb to a black power fantasy. When a John Wick comes around it's really only special because of it's style but not it's content, because ultimately it's just another white guy kills everybody who did him wrong movie, and we've been getting those forever. A Kill bill happens and we appreciate the novelty of it because female power fantasies of that nature are a little more rare. People will unironically root for these mass murderers and not think twice about it because it's not really upsetting the status quo and we don't overtly connect it with the potential for real world violence.

When Black Panther pops off and there's this cultural explosion, it owes a lot to the power fantasy aspect, not only as far as Killmonger is concerned, but T'Challa as a king, Okoye as a warrior, Shuri as a scientist, and Wakanda as a wealthy nation. That some people would get hung up on Killmonger when the majority of the power on display is actually on the side of the protagonists highlights the problem of a lack representation. Some people could just roll with Killmonger the way they would John Wick or The Bride, but that shock to the system tugs at those racial biases to the point that it manifests a real discomfort - a discomfort that largely isn't present when white killers do and say the same kinds of things, because of the numbness that results from an imbalance of representation on their side.

DigitalOp · Jul 8, 2018

The Kree said:
To bring this back around on topic, your point also speaks to why representation is so important because audiences aren't really numb to a black power fantasy. When a John Wick comes around it's really only special because of it's style but not it's content, because ultimately it's just another white guy kills everybody who did him wrong movie, and we've been getting those forever. A Kill bill happens and we appreciate the novelty of it because female power fantasies of that nature are a little more rare. People will unironically root for these mass murderers and not think twice about it because it's not really upsetting the status quo and we don't overtly connect it with the potential for real world violence.

When Black Panther pops off and there's this cultural explosion, it owes a lot to the power fantasy aspect, not only as far as Killmonger is concerned, but T'Challa as a king, Okoye as a warrior, Shuri as a scientist, and Wakanda as a wealthy nation. That some people would get hung up on Killmonger when the majority of the power on display is actually on the side of the protagonists highlights the problem of a lack representation. Some people could just roll with Killmonger the way they would John Wick or The Bride, but that shock to the system tugs at those racial biases to the point that it manifests a real discomfort - a discomfort that largely isn't present when white killers do and say the same kinds of things, because of the numbness that results from an imbalance of representation on their side.

EdibleKnife said:
He hits too close too home for some people and that's the long and short of it. Like multiple posters have pointed out, the people who bray over how "dangerous" he is and how they "worried" about how fans like him is that they're personally deeply afraid of black retribution in general. They don't think black people can enjoy a character motivated by actual hurt without influencing us to make their nightmare scenario of white oppression come true. So they hide their intentions and chide Killmonger fans and insinuate something dangerous about them, ignoring the character's context and framing in the story and invent foolish nonsense about him being somehow more harmful than the multitude of white villains (and even heroes) who've said and done much worse throughout the media landscape.

litebrite said:

Ugh these posts are sooooooooo good.

So so good.

I wanted to mention what Baldwin said earlier but work has been priority.

When you look at the original "Killmonger"

Nat Turner.

The original proverbial Boogeyman for White America. The original "Do it the right way" argument.

Here was man who followed his creed sober. He didn't drink, he didn't have any vices. Think about how wild that is. He decided to stand and revolt of his own sober mind. He witnessed the horrors and crimes of slavery firsthand. The death of black children, the rape of black women, the desecration of black men.

And he led an uprising. Revolted and killed his masters. Killed everyone.

Shook white slavers to the core. They rode around in mobs killing and terrorizing any black person they found in order to locate Turner. They did so out of fear.

To this day, the overall response from the White Majority was that Turner was wrong. That he should have stayed in servitude and "found another way"

Yes. Turner killed women. Turner killed children. But what he did was just give the same energy right back that he and his family(& countless others) received. In the name of his freedom.

You can talk about right and wrong, but you can't deny that it wasn't in the name of liberty and what he saw as justice. (What many people saw as justice)

As an oppresser, you lose your judgement of what is the right response to your actions. Esp seeing as you acted first, you have no right to steime or placate what type of reaction you will receive. That's what bothers white people so much about Nat Turner. They cling to their children and hold them but don't think about the slaves that never got the chance to hold their children.

Killmonger vividly paints the allegory of a modern day Turner. Someone willing to do the absolute worst for the absolute best intentions.

Fun fact: Turner predicted that the sun would not shine on the day of his death. It was stormy in VA with torrential downpours when they hung him.

LL_Decitrig · Jul 8, 2018

litebrite said:

Reminds me, long ago I read Baldwin's long essay about film, The Devil Finds Work, in which he critiques a number of films including those that represented Hollywood's representation of black people: Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, In the Heat of the Night, and so on. I suppose it's fun to idly wonder what he would have made of Black Panther.

Deleted member 19066 · Jul 8, 2018

The Kree said:
To bring this back around on topic, your point also speaks to why representation is so important because audiences aren't really numb to a black power fantasy. When a John Wick comes around it's really only special because of it's style but not it's content, because ultimately it's just another white guy kills everybody who did him wrong movie, and we've been getting those forever. A Kill bill happens and we appreciate the novelty of it because female power fantasies of that nature are a little more rare. People will unironically root for these mass murderers and not think twice about it because it's not really upsetting the status quo and we don't overtly connect it with the potential for real world violence.

When Black Panther pops off and there's this cultural explosion, it owes a lot to the power fantasy aspect, not only as far as Killmonger is concerned, but T'Challa as a king, Okoye as a warrior, Shuri as a scientist, and Wakanda as a wealthy nation. That some people would get hung up on Killmonger when the majority of the power on display is actually on the side of the protagonists highlights the problem of a lack representation. Some people could just roll with Killmonger the way they would John Wick or The Bride, but that shock to the system tugs at those racial biases to the point that it manifests a real discomfort - a discomfort that largely isn't present when white killers do and say the same kinds of things, because of the numbness that results from an imbalance of representation on their side.

I think this sums it up perfectly. The only difference really is Killmonger specifically mentions killing children of oppressors, whereas other antagonists usually leave that part unstated. I think they may have added that part to the script so Killmonger is never seen as too sympathetic in relation to T'Challa.

EdibleKnife said:
He hits too close too home for some people and that's the long and short of it. Like multiple posters have pointed out, the people who bray over how "dangerous" he is and how they "worried" about how fans like him is that they're personally deeply afraid of black retribution in general. They don't think black people can enjoy a character motivated by actual hurt without influencing us to make their nightmare scenario of white oppression come true. So they hide their intentions and chide Killmonger fans and insinuate something dangerous about them, ignoring the character's context and framing in the story and invent foolish nonsense about him being somehow more harmful than the multitude of white villains (and even heroes) who've said and done much worse throughout the media landscape.

I understand the reasoning behind this, since I've totally seen those guys online, but it doesn't match my experience, personally. I've found that most white people (at least myself, until recently, and those I've interacted with) see themselves as completely separate from the racial... system(?) in place in society. "Black people are oppressed but I don't participate in the oppression of black people, and black anger directed towards me, and other non-oppressors, is therefore misplaced." Any attempts to frame them alongside the white people they feel deserving is met with confusion. I may be projecting, though.

T'Chakku · Jul 8, 2018

BuddyDharma said:
I understand the reasoning behind this, since I've totally seen those guys online, but it doesn't match my experience, personally. I've found that most white people (at least myself, until recently, and those I've interacted with) see themselves as completely separate from the racial... system(?) in place in society. "Black people are oppressed but I don't participate in the oppression of black people, and black anger directed towards me, and other non-oppressors, is therefore misplaced." Any attempts to frame them alongside the white people they feel deserving is met with confusion. I may be projecting, though.

Nah. I think that's definitely a big part of it.

EdibleKnife · Jul 8, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Ugh these posts are sooooooooo good.

So so good.

I wanted to mention what Baldwin said earlier but work has been priority.

When you look at the original "Killmonger"

Nat Turner.

The original proverbial Boogeyman for White America. The original "Do it the right way" argument.

Here was man who followed his creed sober. He didn't drink, he didn't have any vices. Think about how wild that is. He decided to stand and revolt of his own sober mind. He witnessed the horrors and crimes of slavery firsthand. The death of black children, the rape of black women, the desecration of black men.

And he led an uprising. Revolted and killed his masters. Killed everyone.

Shook white slavers to the core. They rode around in mobs killing and terrorizing any black person they found in order to locate Turner. They did so out of fear.

To this day, the overall response from the White Majority was that Turner was wrong. That he should have stayed in servitude and "found another way"

Yes. Turner killed women. Turner killed children. But what he did was just give the same energy right back that he and his family(& countless others) received. In the name of his freedom.

You can talk about right and wrong, but you can't deny that it wasn't in the name of liberty and what he saw as justice. (What many people saw as justice)

As an oppresser, you lose your judgement of what is the right response to your actions. Esp seeing as you acted first, you have no right to steime or placate what type of reaction you will receive. That's what bothers white people so much about Nat Turner. They cling to their children and hold them but don't think about the slaves that never got the chance to hold their children.

Killmonger vividly paints the allegory of a modern day Turner. Someone willing to do the absolute worst for the absolute best intentions.

Fun fact: Turner predicted that the sun would not shine on the day of his death. It was stormy in VA with torrential downpours when they hung him.

Thank you! I was just thinking about Turner while I was reading through this topic. The idea that systems of white supremacy and oppression created the oppressors worst nightmare but there's zero acknowledgement from them of the role they played. As though Turner or characters reflecting him like Killmonger exist in a vacuum. They dodge the context because it brings up more troubling questions about what/who pushed them to that point. People who "fear" Killmonger need a lot of self reflection as to what makes him an eyesore.

Deleted member 19066 · Jul 8, 2018

T'Chakku said:
Nah. I think that's definitely a big part of it.

You deny the power of the White Bubble? :P

litebrite · Jul 8, 2018

BuddyDharma said:
You deny the power of the White Bubble? :P

I call it La La Land. LOL

Eduardo Corrochio · Jul 8, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
whiskas_fanatic no one cares about your opinion. The film wasn't for you. Fuck your concern trolling

This is fucking garbage. Who the fuck is it for then? Should all discussion be limited to those people?

Some of you are really just going off the deep end. There are some really shitty opinions on BP that are clearly rooted in a bad place, but that isnt one of them. This thread isn't just for opinions you endorse.

Punjabi_Hitman · Jul 8, 2018

whiskas_fanatic said:
Ha talks about oppressors and colonizers of black people, please figure out what race and skin color he's talking about. As I said, you can try to spin it if you want, but please notice that people around talking about white babies exactly, and not about some abstract babies.

Believe me, I understand that life of black people can be horrible in America. That whole "... while black" is insane to me, neither my homeland, not country I'm currently live in has nothing like that. I honestly can say that I can't imagine what that movie means to you. I also understand that Killmonger (damn that name is hilarious in context of discussion) as character has some positives. But I cant get over this "children" line - it just erases everything where he made any sense. Even the yonglings! But turns out, for some people it's ok to potentially slaughter some white children, and he was right. That's what i can't wrap my head around.
P.s. We are talking about fiction here, but people talking that his idea was all right, applying it to the real world, that's why I'm taking it so serious.

China is now doing taking advantage of Africa. Do they fit in the same race and skin color as the whites you think he is specifically talking about?

Half of Italy has dark skin tones. Are they considered white?

Why do you think he is only going to attack America? There's other countries invloved, like the Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Spain.

I guess Germany, Belgium, UK, and France fit the mold.

Kilmonger wasn't just attacking white countries, He was on a mission to have Wakanda rule the world.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 8, 2018

Eduardo Corrochio said:
This is fucking garbage. Who the fuck is it for then? Should all discussion be limited to those people?

Some of you are really just going off the deep end. There are some really shitty opinions on BP that are clearly rooted in a bad place, but that isnt one of them. This thread isn't just for opinions you endorse.

Constantly concern trolling that people like Killmonger is a shitty "opinion" rooted in racism.

I'm not off the deep end because you can't grasp what has already been well explained multiple times from different posters

You only attempt to police my tone because you can't form a reasonable argument against those points

The thread isn't about if non-black people approve of black people sympathizing with Killmonger but since you insist, please feel free to explain why any of us should give a fuck

litebrite · Jul 8, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
The thread isn't about if non-black people approve of black people sympathizing with Killmonger but since you insist, please feel free to explain why any of us should give a fuck

As Amamda Seales put it, "I don't base or measure my ethics against the ethics of a race that was literally created to oppress other people".

Deleted member 1248 · Jul 8, 2018

BuddyDharma said:
I think this sums it up perfectly. The only difference really is Killmonger specifically mentions killing children of oppressors, whereas other antagonists usually leave that part unstated. I think they may have added that part to the script so Killmonger is never seen as too sympathetic in relation to T'Challa.

John Wick didn't leave that unstated. He stalked and killed both the father and the son.

When some white people hear a black man talking about killing his oppressors and their children, they probably don't picture him killing grown-ass Viggo and Iosef with their guns and armies of bodyguards though. They're picturing themselves and their little defenseless actual white babies literally cowering in a corner begging for their lives - or at least that's what it seems like given all the pearl clutching - and they're not reflecting on what that says about themselves. Funny how that works out.

God forbid their be a black bad man with righteous anger in a movie.

Nesotenso · Jul 8, 2018

litebrite said:
As Amamda Seales put it, "I don't base or measure my ethics against the ethics of a race that was literally created to oppress other people".

what is the context of this quote?

litebrite · Jul 8, 2018

Nesotenso said:
what is the context of this quote?

About worrying about White oppression in the context of the Black community policing their own.

Deleted member 19066 · Jul 8, 2018

The Kree said:
John Wick didn't leave that unstated. He stalked and killed both the father and the son.

When some white people hear a black man talking about killing his oppressors and their children, they probably don't picture him killing grown ass Viggo and Iosef with their guns and armies of bodyguards though. They're picturing themselves and their little defenseless actual white babies literally cowering in a corner begging for their lives - or at least that's what it seems like given all the pearl clutching. Funny how that works out.

God forbid their be a black bad man with righteous anger in a movie.

Alfie Allen was John Wick's primary target, an adult, who had stolen his car, and killed his dog. The movie was very clear about it. He killed the rest of the mafia because they got in his way. Killmonger said, if IMDB is accurate -

You know, where I'm from... when black folks started revolutions, they never had the firepower... or the resources to fight their oppressors. Where was Wakanda? Hmm? Yeah, all that ends today. We got spies embedded in every nation on Earth. Already in place. I know how colonizers think. So we're gonna use their own strategy against 'em. We're gonna send vibranium weapons out to our War Dogs. They'll arm oppressed people all over the world... so they can finally rise up and kill those in power. And their children. And anyone else who takes their side.

From this we can see Killmonger's primary objective was to arm the oppressed so they can rise up against their oppressors. Black oppression is his primary motivator, but black liberation is not his only goal; it seems the liberation of all oppressed peoples is in there, too. But I don't see how you can see this killing the oppressor's children line and not think of actual, younger children.

Eduardo Corrochio · Jul 8, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
The thread isn't about if non-black people approve of black people sympathizing with Killmonger but since you insist, please feel free to explain why any of us should give a fuck

No, I thought it was for people to talk about BP, it's impact and how it made them feel. It seems though some people are more content to simply pick fights with a small subset of opinions they don't like. It went off the rails on page one when some posters decided to completely ignore the OPs eloquent post in favour of rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation of telling some people to fuck off.

You don't have to give a fuck about anyone else's opinion on anything. When you disagree with someone, you can choose to ignore it, or counter their opinion. Most of us left the 3rd option - yeah well nobody gives a fuck about your opinion anyway - behind in grade school.

Black Panther and the Importance of Inclusion

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