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Kotaku: GW2 writers fired after Twitter argument. GG pressured firing.
- Thread starter Don Fluffles
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Well, from most of your perspectives, I'm arguing with you, which is a shameful offense.
Is it really hard to ask to have actually told him off (for what seem to be perceived slights, mind) instead of being a prick?
What about his posts made you think he was doing it in bad faith?
You are saying GG was Anita and other people's fault?
Honest question; do we know for sure they "jumped to" firing? How do we know if they didn't approach her and try to resolve this separately? Do we know if she's had other similar issues?
There's a lot of possibilities here; seems totally possible they did "jump to firing her" but also seems totally possible this isn't even the first time they've had to talk to her about her social media presence.
Ah, this polite monster strike again.
How dare he say that he thinks open discussions are good and that he's unhappy he got caught up in this. Really whipped people into a frenzy
Pretty sure he's just shit stirring. He's said this in the GW2 OT:
Clearly at that point he didn't care too much either way but now he's full on "youtuber whipped up a harassment campaign to get her fired!".
The whole point of mansplaining as I understand it is the condescension. So no.
The sexism is most of the times implicit, something we don't notice because it is so prevalent and we've grown up with it being the norm.
I got more than one out of this thread. At least this shows me how people really are and who to cut.
Also, all of the people in this thread being cute with their mansplaining jokes: your slip is showing.
Save me your snark. Do you think with all the information we have, people in general are going to take the side of those disagreeing with the firing? After the exchange? After the death celebration? After the twitch clip of the guy praising her? After all the other toxic stuff she said on social media prior to this?
This is unfortunately a win for GG and people with platforms portraying ANet as monsters in all this is incredibly irresponsible.
Your not arguing anything, your being dismissive and antagonistic. While discussing with little to no good faith and simply labeling others that you don't agree with.
I mean, you can't link yourself to a company in a public capacity and then be a jerk, which she was.
You can set your Twitter to private. Or use something like Facebook. Or Email. And no, she shouldn't have to, but she also can't complain about the repercussions of being rude because of it.
You can set your Twitter to private. Or use something like Facebook. Or Email. And no, she shouldn't have to, but she also can't complain about the repercussions of being rude because of it.
You are not arguing in good faith and you are belittling other users imho.
His argument and line of reasoning is dogshit, so he has to resort to acting like a parody of what the right thinks a progressive is.
This is definitely an important point. Generally, with stuff like this in my experience, it gets brought up with HR, and there's a big meeting, and they figure out where to go from there. There could've easily been extra belligerence behind it or some other inter-office drama, which would explain the reaction a little better.
Interesting, because I've never actually stated my opinion on the topic at large at all.
Would you like to tell me what my stance is?
Huh? Of course not. GG didn't even start with Anita, it started with a complete fabrication about a game dev and her relationships.
And retaliating against people being toxic to you is completely different from retaliating against people being polite. There is no comparison between the onset of gamergate and its subsequent harassment of personalities and this.
Now you can easily consider this but you think anyone claiming that she was an ass, was unprofessional, and doesn't know what "mansplaining" means are GamerGators?
That's a pretty willfull mischaracterization of my prior posts.
I can see that, but does that mean if you happen to be condescending to a woman (as a man) that makes you sexist?
I mean, say someone who's condescending to everyone is condescending to a woman. Does that make him sexist now? Is a man being condescending to a woman inherently connected to some sexism?
It is sad to me that so many people are taking the Kotaku article and other sites as the full story. Folks, I implore you, please research the entire incident and see it in it's full light. I strongly recommend reviewing the entire scenario, all of the tweets, including the deleted ones from Fries, and reviewing everything thoroughly. Please. Please don't jump to knee jerk reactions. We have too much of that from extremely vitriolic individuals who all too willingly grab a torch and pitchforks like an angry mob seeking out a werewolf or vampire in an old 50's b horror movie.
I feel, personally, that the Kotaku article is biased, quite heavily in fact. Which is disappointing to me as while I will always very strongly and proudly support women in any and all fields; I also strongly feel that the entire truth of a story should be told. Even if the truth is extremely ugly.
What happened here was an Arena Partner and youtuber that is quite well known responded to Price's multiple tweets after an AMA that followed up on said AMA with additional thoughts. Deroir was extremely polite, sometimes exceedingly so, and sought to engage in some discussion with Price. She then proceeded to go off the rails at a speed of 0-1000 in a very short matter of time.
She was condescending, unprofessional, rude beyond measure in my opinion, and was completely unbecoming of an individual in any manner of civility no matter what way one tries to spin it. I feel very strongly about that. If one of my co-workers had reacted to me that way, they would be fired so fast their head would still be spinning.
People keep pointing to Price and saying things that this was solely against her, etc, but also forget that Fries was fired as well.
To wit. If I had acted in such a manner on social media and the company I worked for got wind of it, you can bet your biscuits that I would be hauled in Immediately in front of, if not the CEO / President of the Company himself ( Yes, this is a thing and it would happen if I screwed up like this ) then the director of NIT and would be promptly eviscerated before having to turn in my badge, pack my things, and be escorted off of the premises with due haste. IF I was even afforded the opportunity to GET my things to begin with.
And as much as I frigging LOATHE at At will work states, which mine now is...much to my immense hatred, it doesn't change the fact that any company in such a setting can fire an employ for any reason whatsoever that is deemed a significant enough infraction. Just as an Employee can also leave said company for any reason as well due to said laws.
Arena Net, in my opinion, was absolutely in the right here. I have seen co-workers get hauled out of the building for being rude, but far less to a capacity than she was. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior. Period. And she had the Arena Net noted in her twitter account and as such was a defacto representative of the company. If she truly did not want comments, her account should have been made private, or she should have stated something like. " These are my thoughts on the matter. I would respectfully like for others to not reply to this post. "
If folks think actions on twitter do not have consequences, please go take a look at Roseanne Barr as a good example of why unprofessional behavior on twitter when representing a company absolutely SHOULD have consequences.
I feel, personally, that the Kotaku article is biased, quite heavily in fact. Which is disappointing to me as while I will always very strongly and proudly support women in any and all fields; I also strongly feel that the entire truth of a story should be told. Even if the truth is extremely ugly.
What happened here was an Arena Partner and youtuber that is quite well known responded to Price's multiple tweets after an AMA that followed up on said AMA with additional thoughts. Deroir was extremely polite, sometimes exceedingly so, and sought to engage in some discussion with Price. She then proceeded to go off the rails at a speed of 0-1000 in a very short matter of time.
She was condescending, unprofessional, rude beyond measure in my opinion, and was completely unbecoming of an individual in any manner of civility no matter what way one tries to spin it. I feel very strongly about that. If one of my co-workers had reacted to me that way, they would be fired so fast their head would still be spinning.
People keep pointing to Price and saying things that this was solely against her, etc, but also forget that Fries was fired as well.
To wit. If I had acted in such a manner on social media and the company I worked for got wind of it, you can bet your biscuits that I would be hauled in Immediately in front of, if not the CEO / President of the Company himself ( Yes, this is a thing and it would happen if I screwed up like this ) then the director of NIT and would be promptly eviscerated before having to turn in my badge, pack my things, and be escorted off of the premises with due haste. IF I was even afforded the opportunity to GET my things to begin with.
And as much as I frigging LOATHE at At will work states, which mine now is...much to my immense hatred, it doesn't change the fact that any company in such a setting can fire an employ for any reason whatsoever that is deemed a significant enough infraction. Just as an Employee can also leave said company for any reason as well due to said laws.
Arena Net, in my opinion, was absolutely in the right here. I have seen co-workers get hauled out of the building for being rude, but far less to a capacity than she was. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior. Period. And she had the Arena Net noted in her twitter account and as such was a defacto representative of the company. If she truly did not want comments, her account should have been made private, or she should have stated something like. " These are my thoughts on the matter. I would respectfully like for others to not reply to this post. "
If folks think actions on twitter do not have consequences, please go take a look at Roseanne Barr as a good example of why unprofessional behavior on twitter when representing a company absolutely SHOULD have consequences.
Your stance is that Deroir is a nobody GamerGate white boi who also somehow has enough clout to whip other GamerGators into obviously getting this woman fired, who may or may not have also probably did other bad shit that also contributed to her release.
Dudes cannot handle a woman with an outspoken opinion and they fall over each other to justify any form of silencing and punishment of said woman. Hence the large amount of posts trying to jump through all sorts of hoops to justify why women deserve to be silenced and punished.
This thread is such a black mark on this forum.
Kamiya has no place in this discussion. Firstly, he's his own boss and gets to run his company and project its image however he likes. Secondly, Kaniya can be a twat, but he's also quite funny a lot of the time. There's nothing about this situation that makes him a sensible comparison.
Would you kindly quote where I said that Deroir is a Gamergater?
After all these years we really were the Guild Wars, too.
Your stance is to troll other people for daring to have a different opinion to you. And you don't need to state your opinion in flashing green letters, your attitude towards other users who believe the writer was in the wrong says more than enough.
Still don't agree. There is a difference between Kayima, behaving as a caricature referring to people as insects or just blocking left and right, and a response that is just full blown nasty and mean spirited. The other difference is that it's his company. Who is going to reprimand him? Would a female Kayima get the same response? I would say that yes, she would if she was a figurehead and also just offered stupid responses to questions and built her persona on it.
It's a combination of factors. First, "I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design" is essentially saying "you chose the wrong writing design path" and AGAIN I have to point out that I am not gonna shit on this guy because most people who do this don't mean harm and are trying to be nice. Then he says "When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC." which is basically repeating the sentiment that Price already expressed back to her. She already said that as much herself in her tweets, and some person is trying to repeat that back to her as if she didn't come to that conclusion.
He also says "If instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options)". I want to dive into this a little more. First, I would hope that Deroir wasn't specifically referring to GW2 necessarily, but if he was, that's basically the epitome of "why don't you just do it THIS way", ignoring that said "way" would require a complete ground-up restructuring of the writing and game design. You see this in ResetEra threads all the time when people talk about "lazy devs" and why they don't do features that would involve a huge amount of work. If I work for GW2, and this GW2 prominent player says these things, I would assume he's talking about the game I work on.
So let's bring these together... When you get this sort of thing every day, and now someone prominent in the community is saying these things to you, no matter how nice the words are and how cordial he's being, when you actually look at the context, it's pretty insulting. THAT STILL DOESN'T WARRANT being rude to him, BUT IT ALSO doesn't warrant being fired, because as I've said before, the easiest way to make this situation cool over would have been a temporary suspension and revoking of social media. And certainly not firing the co-worker who stood up for Price. That's literally throwing to the wolves.
Another reason I don't criticize Deroir as a person is because he very clearly in the twitter thread does not come across as being THAT upset about Price's remarks. Disappointed maybe, but he wasn't calling for her to be fired. There are people who don't want to see Deroir blamed, and he shouldn't be. But part of this is because of ANet's overreaction. If they had a better disciplinary protocol, it wouldn't have reached this point. So as a result he ends up being the victim of a lot of bullshit too. If ANet handled this correctly, Price would be slapped on the wrist, Fries would still have a job, Deroir would not now have to deal with a lot of people incorrectly blaming him, and there's no 20+ page thread on ResetEra.
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling + Previous infractions; junior account
Wow the monster is using the GG tactic of praising her behind her back. That praiseplaining pig should be banned from twitch
So you don't care enough to actually have a discussion about it. Alright my guy.
Stop making stuff up, confirmation bias makes a fool out of people.
Mods don't seem to care what goes on in this thread anymore.
Can I, without being lumped in with Gamergaters, take issue with what these writers said?
1. Gamers are without cease telling game developers how to do their jobs - all day, every day - and without any distinction between man, woman, or machine. Unless the criticism included explicit remarks denigrating women and their competence, it's impossible to say - given how abundantly and indiscriminately gamers offer criticism - that the criticism she got was received because she was a woman.
2. Feedback on how to improve your product doesn't have to be asked for. If it's civilly offered, then it should always be welcome.
1. Gamers are without cease telling game developers how to do their jobs - all day, every day - and without any distinction between man, woman, or machine. Unless the criticism included explicit remarks denigrating women and their competence, it's impossible to say - given how abundantly and indiscriminately gamers offer criticism - that the criticism she got was received because she was a woman.
2. Feedback on how to improve your product doesn't have to be asked for. If it's civilly offered, then it should always be welcome.
I see it a bit differently. I must admit the whole GG topic is something that doesnt really interest me so I am definately not an expert on the matter. Based only on her communication I, as a mid lev white collar manager, would fire her. It is quite simple really - if you want to blow off steam, then you do not associate your public profile with your employees. As a matter a fact I encourage people to not have a public profile at all (but thats my thing). Calling your customer asshat and then going on a made up gender equality crusade is WAY over the line. Once again, you may vent and send people packing from your PRIVATE-NON EMPLOYEE associated social media account and even then it would look bad, but not contract termination type bad. And I am sure that Anet will not pay anything here. Everyone with a brain and experience with white collars knows whats going on. Mental lunatics on the internet threatening to boycott are irrelevant. They just cant accept that. They are also such a minority that on the scale of "not important - major problem" they are below statistical error. See boycotting Call of Duty for reference.
PS. It doesnt event matter if the agitator is polite and passive or rude and agressive. Learn to use ignore functions or grow a skin. In this case the other party involved was very polite and passive which makes the whole situation worse for her.
probably why this thread was left up by the mods and the others were closed down so shortly and why they don't clamp down on obvious disingenuous posting going and trolling
User Banned (1 Week): Rationalizing and justifying the behavior and impact of a hate and harassment movement
She fucked up, her response to the fan's (reasonable and well-thought out) criticism was inappropriate and she was an asshole. No company is going to want that kind of public customer interaction. I don't know if firing her was the correct response but it was reasonable enough given the circumstances.
Gaming media stays losing for screaming about this. GamerGate sucks but that doesn't mean that they weren't right this time. Again, firing this writer was reasonable under the circumstances. The initial incident was really poorly handled by her.
Gaming media stays losing for screaming about this. GamerGate sucks but that doesn't mean that they weren't right this time. Again, firing this writer was reasonable under the circumstances. The initial incident was really poorly handled by her.
Bullshit, don't try and handwave Kamiya out of this discussion. He's not the owner of the company.
He founded it, yes, but he serves as a director there now. There would be nothing stopping him from being fired by the CEO.
So you claim anyone who defends him is a GamerGater, and that he whipped the GamerGaters into a mob:
But you don't think he himself is part of GamerGate.
It doesn't necessarily mean you're sexist, but it may mean that you're indirectly continuing sexist philosophy.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/1...enanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit
According to this Verge article they jumped directly to firing which is 100% grade A bullshit on ANets part.
I think I'm pretty much done with the thread but I'll just leave saying this was a good post and that Arena really should've just handled all this a lot better.
It's very strange that they got into contact with Price but not ArenaNet
Ok this is a lot to take in and I generally try not to stick my head in hot topics like this but something bothers me.
I see people criticizing the original comment as mansplaining and talking about how that's not necessarily always malicious but any time a man tries to assert their opinion to a woman.
But isn't this more or less what people on this forum do all the damn time? Talking about dev decisions and how we think it could be better? Goodness know I've scene people comment far less politely about devs work.
Are we just never allowed to bring these suggestions to woman? Or is it fine as long as long as you don't actually try to talk to the dev themselves about it? Is critiquing a guy in the same way ok?
Just something that was bothering me sorry.
I see people criticizing the original comment as mansplaining and talking about how that's not necessarily always malicious but any time a man tries to assert their opinion to a woman.
But isn't this more or less what people on this forum do all the damn time? Talking about dev decisions and how we think it could be better? Goodness know I've scene people comment far less politely about devs work.
Are we just never allowed to bring these suggestions to woman? Or is it fine as long as long as you don't actually try to talk to the dev themselves about it? Is critiquing a guy in the same way ok?
Just something that was bothering me sorry.
Is being a bit harsh on an answer really should mean you get fired? She could just left out the "asshat" comment? Sure, but Kamiya would have been fire 100 thousand times then.
When you someone tell "Hey, that's not how you do your work, here's how you do it"?
It can be, after being constantly required to do so to people that thinks they know more about the work you do than yourself.
Not true, he commented how Inaba, who was HIS BOSS, actually chewed him about his Twitter ourbusts. But , luckily, PG dosn't think random twitter twats should have that power over their devs and fired him.
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