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Oct 25, 2017
5,846
This feels like a good application of The Social Network "it's not because you're ___, it's because you're an asshole" line.

The writer was a jerk, and she paid the price. That's how these things work, as we regularly see people on here relish when it comes to people saying all manner of rude or offensive things. Gamergate trying to spin this as a victory and people hand-wringing about this are ignoring that Gamergate's list of 'successes' is nonexistent or tangential, like this.

More broadly, reading Price's tweets, there seems to be this weird schism (and it's common with a lot of people) who want to have the public platform of Twitter but treat it as a non-public forum at the same time (and that your comments don't reflect on your employer) and that's just a laughable and unrealistic tack to take. If you really want a Twitter experience where randos aren't rolling in with their unsolicited opinions, lock down your profile. The analogy used that 'I'm at a restaurant and everyone's butting in to my conversation' doesn't work at all unless you're broadcasting your conversation via megaphone.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,330
Seattle
seriously if your opinion on this is "yeah jessica deserved to be fired" you have to account for peter fries, a 12 year veteran with no history whatsoever of problems, being fired for a single supportive tweet. that makes it crystal fucking clear what's going on here.
It is not crystal clear; we don't know what went on internally.

It certainly adds weight to the theory that they jumped to conclusions and buckled to the community complaining; but not "crystal fucking clear."
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
seriously if your opinion on this is "yeah jessica deserved to be fired" you have to account for peter fries, a 12 year veteran with no history whatsoever of problems, being fired for a single supportive tweet. that makes it crystal fucking clear what's going on here.
The fact that there's also a bunch of angry devs going against them being fired should also clue people on that this situation is not considered reasonable for the industry - but a lot of people are also ignoring this point as well.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
They were doing a makeover, which is what their job is. So they weren't doing anything wrong other than interacting with a popular YouTube persona. The point is your employer rarely ever wants to see you attached to the company in anything remotely controversial.

Was she an actual client? Did she pay for the makeover? If not, they were neglecting their work...

seriously if your opinion on this is "yeah jessica deserved to be fired" you have to account for peter fries, a 12 year veteran with no history whatsoever of problems, being fired for a single supportive tweet. that makes it crystal fucking clear what's going on here.

Exactly.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,352
Why did you cut out the rest of my response?

You know, where I specifically said that I knew why she was getting more shit for her attitude than he would?
I cut out the part where you agreed why the GG brigade targeted her and not him (because I agree with it and didn't feel the need to point that out). I didn't see you say that she'd get more shit in general (not talking about GGers), and I was specifically talking about the general public's perception. If I missed where you talked about that, apologies.
 
Nov 2, 2017
951
People comparing this to Kamiya: does he make rude responses to people in the games community who write up thoughtful responses to his public tweets about game design? Or does he make his dismissive tweets in response to low effort, spammy garbage?

If Price had told some troll who was insulting her to 'fuck off', I don't think she would be unemployed right now. I think it is because she insulted someone in the gw2 community who respected her and wrote a respectful, well thought out comment in response to her thread about narrative design.

Did she apologize to the guy yet? That would go a long way to making her a sympathetic person. I understand that women have to deal with a lot of shit everyday, but singling this guy out was dumb and makes her concerns less likely to be taken seriously. Of all the tweets she could have responded to, she chose the one polite reasonable tweet from a huge fan of hers. A tweet so obviously tip-toing to not appear hostile or condescending.
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,310
We're veering dangerously close to victim blaming here, but I think there's some truth in this, in that I really can't blame the streamer for replying to a public Tweet on an account affiliated with someone's work, on a Tweet about their work.

Doesn't posting on Twitter bring with it the understand that people have the right to respond to you? If Price hasn't made it clear that she doesn't want feedback on her argument (that MMO protagonists can't be well written?), is the streamer really to blame for assuming they might be up to debate?

Her description on Twitter states she has salty language and blocks people. I feel like its pretty clear what you're going to get if you tweet at her, and it ain't Mary Poppins.
 

Z-oo31

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 12, 2018
559
I looked into the complete Twitter history of this incident. She was definitely in the wrong, and misplayed the mansplaining card when there was no evidence that the YouTuber would not have stated similar criticism if the GW2 writer were a man.

And given her insufferable Twitter history, it's possible that the firing was not exclusively due to this incident, but rather it was the last straw.
 

Deleted member 32018

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,628
They did not show her the social media rules, never gave her a warning previously, and she was upfront with her social media presence and demeanour at interview

Do you have proof of all of these? Also In my country, certain actions on social media can lead to instant dismissal. Talking to a customer in that way is one of them. Obviously it doesn't always happen but if you treat a customer like that, basically call them sexist and quote their post to try and brigade against them then I don't see the issue with an instant dismissal.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
The real shame is oblivious we'll-intentioned dudes in this thread who don't get how sexism works and how organized harassment campaign works and then proceed to align themselves with Gamergaters because they don't listen and haven't learned anything the last 4 years.

Please free to enlighten me on how sexism played a part in the twitter exchange and how it led her to get fired.It is a discussion board afterall.....

Also the rampant harassment of women in the industry is a topic I would happily discuss and Im happy to learn more about it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
704
Now lets see if ArenaNet adds dialogue options to Guild Wars 2.

They already had, but they had been phased out over time. The way it used to work was that you'd get certain text responses that gave you three different flavor options. Your character could respond in a "dignified", "charming", or "ferocious" manner. Ultimately, it was decided that it wasn't a meaningful feature due to player feedback, and Arenanet shifted to a model where the vast majority of the responses by the player character are spoken via voice actor.

So within the context of Guild Wars 2, I can understand the argument that Price could have been annoyed by the comment. It had already been deemed a dead end by the company during the game's development, and given that the player character can be two different genders and five different races voice acting them all out would be prohibitively expensive for marginal gain. However, given that the discussion was about the general MMO sphere and not Guild Wars 2 specifically, Deroir's point may have some validity. Either way, it didn't necessitate the reaction Price replied with.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
928
it's fascinating how many people in this thread are unironically saying "well obviously jobs/jaffe/kamiya/etc. would be fine, they own the company, why would they get fired for being dickheads to customers" without any obvious awareness of how this fits into the conversation about double standards
It's the same thing with Elon Musk. He's an absolutely horrible person and treats his employees like garbage plus says some of the most insane and toxic shit on twitter yet so many in the tech and gaming world worship him like he's a god.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Do you have proof of all of these? Also In my country, certain actions on social media can lead to instant dismissal. Talking to a customer in that way is one of them. Obviously it doesn't always happen but if you treat a customer like that, basically call them sexist and quote their post to try and brigade against them then I don't see the issue with an instant dismissal.
Read the Verge article.
 

MisterMangu

Banned
Feb 12, 2018
724
I can tell many of you here aren't really part of the GW2 community to not see why people were upset. Even if you aren't, how anyone can say Anet handled it wrong or that firing her was excessive is beyond mind boggling.

She tweeted her thoughts about her work, on a twitter page representing Anet.

She pulled the gender/sexist card when it wasn't needed at all and escalated the issue. All because a community member gave some input, in a cery respectful and courteous manner.

She insulted a highly respected member of the GW2 community, calling him an "asshat nobody" which further shows the disconnection between the community and the devs..a complaint that has been around for years.

She went on to say that she is off the clock and doesn't have to pretend to like the players. Which is telling for how the other GW2 devs may feel about the playerbase.

Then to add fuel to the fire, the other dev comes and defends her rather than try to calm the situation down. Further inciting the situation.

It was a shitshow and a PR disaster for Anet.

We don't even know what went on internally when Mike confronted the two employees.

The firings were 100% justified.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Kamiya has no place in this discussion. Firstly, he's his own boss and gets to run his company and project its image however he likes. Secondly, Kaniya can be a twat, but he's also quite funny a lot of the time. There's nothing about this situation that makes him a sensible comparison.
It's relevant in the fact that despite making all kinds of coarse and extremely rude comments on his Twitter account all the time, and doing this despite being in a leadership position at PlatinumGames, that it appears to have absolutely no affect whatsoever on the sales of their games one way or the other (and that's also putting aside that some people even find his comments charming and endearing, but regardless of where one falls on that, the point is it definitely does not appear to be factoring into the vast majority of people's purchasing decisions one way or the other).

Now, if some head-honcho at a company like PlatinumGames can get away with that and no one really cares one way or the other, why would someone care one way or the other about how some random writers at ArenaNet interacted on Twitter? If Kamiya can act the way he does on Twitter and the vast majority either seems to not be aware or not care, why would anyone care about infinitely more obscure stuff like this?

Hell, like forget about this type of topic completely for a moment here. Y'know all those cross-play threads that keep popping up, and how there have been like hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of pages on here and other sites discussing whether or not Sony is right or wrong to keep the PS4 from having cross-play with the Xbox One and Switch, and how that keeps popping up? I recall in the midst of one of those discussions seeing a survey that showed, that when most people were asked how they felt about the thing, that most people had no idea what cross-play even was or meant or what the deal with any of that stuff actually was. That most people outside of heavy-hobbyist sites like this simply have no clue about most of this stuff one way or the other to even begin forming any opinions on this type of thing.

And if that's on one of the big controversies-of-the-moment, like the subject of cross-play, then something like this doesn't even begin to compare. If most people have no clue about cross-play or whatever, what some random writer said on Twitter is just so much more obscure and is the type of thing that's way less likely to cross a person's radar. And going back to Kamiya and his antics, that even if people are aware, they typically don't seem to care much one way or the other and it certainly doesn't affect their purchasing decisions in most cases.

So that being the case, that this doesn't seem to be the type of thing that so much as affecting sales or anything in any way, why jump straight toward firing? It just seems so disproportionate to everything. All that seemed to happen was, well, she was human. She misinterpreted a comment and overreacted to it, assuming it was something it wasn't. But that's natural. It happens to all of us. She should have simply been given a chance to apologize and move on, recognizing that fact, and at most having to shut down that personal account entirely to make sure that nothing like this ever happened again if they were really worried about repeat offenses. But firing just appeared to be too much for what actually happened here and how things played out. Yes, it's easy to say that she overreacted. But firing her was itself an overreaction and didn't give a chance to make amends in a way that makes everyone happy and resolves everything without.

That, and it sets up an idea that I'm very comfortable with. That no matter what someone says to you (and yes, I'm aware of what was said in this particular case, but I'm speaking in general here), that the most you can do as a developer on a public account, even if it is something terribly over the line and uncalled for, is just block the person and move on. That developers aren't allowed to well, be human basically, be human beings with feelings and emotions and have emotional reactions to those type of things and also make mistakes and overreact some of the time. Having to just bottle it all up and never being able to say anything just because you're an employee to a company is just insane to me. Particularly, again, going back to people like Kamiya, that companies don't seem to particularly suffer much risk from even their figure-heads, y'know, actually being human beings and acting however they want to act, so why, if that doesn't affect things when even the people at the top react that way, should standards suddenly be different for people at the bottom, who are even less likely to affect such purchasing decisions and the like?

Of course, to be clear, I'm not saying what was said was right or necessary here. All I am saying is that developers are human beings like anyone else and as such should be allowed to make mistakes, as long as they're willing to rectify and owe up to them and apologize and the like when stuff happens and show they've grown. That is, that there are other ways this probably could have happened without jumping to firing anyone, such as such apologies. That them getting fired was the only way to handle this, and that because of that developers just have to take whatever comes their way and never be able to respond, never have so much as a single moment of weakness of make mistakes about people's intentions or anything, and be given the chance to apologize or anything when that happens, and that firing is the one and only answer instead is just something I can't be comfortable with.
 

BeeKaine

Banned
Apr 21, 2018
736
I'm literally responding to someone that said that developers should welcome all criticism.

Welcoming criticism doesn't mean replying, it just means don't flip off the fucking handle when someone disagrees with you.

A lot of creators "welcome" criticism by making it clear that they are not going to bite your head off for telling them how to make a shooter. Nintendo, Sony, SEGA, Miyamoto, Cory, Iizuka, they don't lose their shit when someone says "why can't you make Mario / God of War / Sonic better". They don't necessarily take in or accept feedback, but they don't harshly reject it. This is the bare minimum of a corporation's or an employee's interactions of their consumer base.

And as much as you want to--I don't even make things and I feel like doing that a lot--when you are a part of a company, you don't get to do that.

It's not even the fact that she was mean--she seems pretty mean in general--nor did they go against her specific politics since I heavily doubt this is the only time she brought it up, but it's because she decided to respond to "Hi, so-and-so, love your work, I want to give feedback to this thing you were talking about on this public platform" from a well-known influencer of the work she's employed in with "fuck off, you misogynistic asshat, get out of my private* Twitter" and apparently refused to apology or relent in anyway, assuming ArenaNet didn't literally immediately fire her.
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
How is that bolded part anything other than offering criticism? And as you say, it's trying to be quite nice. Isn't it constructive criticism? Could this statement be rephrased in a way to not be condescending? Or are players of a game not allowed to critique the writing at all?
To be fair, I think people should be allowed to critique whatever they want, although there is a difference between "this is what I think THEY should have done" and "this is what YOU should do". I think it does get weird when people send unsolicited critique to a person even if they are public, but I can't stop that. Maybe that's another discussion entirely. But getting back on subject, to be honest, I'm not sure if that first bullet point could be rephrased because it's the premise of the tweet itself that condemns the writing style of Price/GW2, even if he was trying to speak more generally about MMOs. The main thing I go to for it being mansplainy is the overall sum of the parts, especially the second bullet point. But even that first bullet point, saying "this is a limitation of the system"... like, she was kind of saying that. That thread of hers is pretty large and goes into detail about how the living story system and player expectation requires a certain amount of Mary Sue-ness -- even in games like The Division, you're essentially The Chosen One despite the fact that there are thousands of other Chosen Ones. She was admitting to flaws in the process and why they do things the way they do, and Deroir comes up and says "in my opinion I think there are flaws in the process"..

It's weird because he says he disagrees but I don't think his tweets really disagree with Price at all except for the branching dialogue suggestion, I think that's what rubs me the wrong way. It's like she said "This is hard because A B C" and he said "Actually it's hard because A B C, also maybe completely overhauling the game would work, give it a try". Like, he's nice about it, but it's not the tone that bothers me. But I also don't blame him for this current situation either; this is entirely on ANet and now he's going to get propped up by shitty GGers as their new hero, and chances are his streams are gonna get filled with bad eggs championing him. Like I feel pretty dang bad for him.
 

Kensuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,406
Netherlands
I feel like a lot of people here aren't trying to look at it from Price's perspective. She gets comments about how to do her work from laymen both off and online all the time. Her tolerance for it has dwindled over the years. The Deroir comment was a very mild version of it, but the reason she looks like she goes from 0 to 100 is because it's the millionth instance of it happening. Not professional to react the way she did, but at least try to see where she's coming from. The AN firing has just escalated the situation and is sending out a terrible message, instead of 'professionally resolving it'.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Her description on Twitter states she has salty language and blocks people. I feel like its pretty clear what you're going to get if you tweet at her, and it ain't Mary Poppins.
Thought I'd checked her bio out and hadn't seen that.

Don't feel that entirely warrants the approach of "if you reply to me with your own take on the thing I'm devving you're an asshat", but that's the sort of thing I meant. At what point can people be sure they're allowed to engage someone in a discussion over Twitter?
 

Amanita

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
88
Sure, but thinking that every dev should welcome every criticism from every armchair dev at all times is just bonkers.

See above.
Name a company whose policy it is to ignore feedback from its customers. The (former) ArenaNet writer said that the guy who offered his criticism should meditate on whether he was asked for it. He doesn't have to do any such thing. They're a company; he's a customer; he doesn't have to hold his criticism until he's asked.
 

Hero2Zero

Member
Mar 10, 2018
101
seriously if your opinion on this is "yeah jessica deserved to be fired" you have to account for peter fries, a 12 year veteran with no history whatsoever of problems, being fired for a single supportive tweet. that makes it crystal fucking clear what's going on here.

Jessica also only worked there for about 2 years too, it a long time but it still in the expendable range, far more then 12 years and been around since the first guild wars.

i can see him being fired due to blocking some legal loophole with firing a single woman but while you can say her tweets are out of one (they are even if justified) he was not. this is a huge big pile and it made me return to wow, the wow communaty been toxic since 2003 so i am numb to it like a cold pool.
 

Alautilus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20
The fact that there's also a bunch of angry devs going against them being fired should also clue people on that this situation is not considered reasonable for the industry - but a lot of people are also ignoring this point as well.
yeah almost everyone in the industry who is able to actually maintain a social account and speak for themselves is saying "this isn't normal and i know because my company actually protects me in this kind of scenario"
 

Eila

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,941
It's become normal to get fired over what you say on the internet. So in that sense, there is enough in her response to let her go. Peter Fries response is much more mild and it seems to me they also fired him to try to not make this about a woman getting harassed and fired.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,330
Seattle
OK so someone mentioned this and it's helpful

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/1...enanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

Price adds that she believes her firing was an emotional reaction on the part of ArenaNet co-founder Mike O'Brien. "He fired me personally, and the meeting was mostly him venting his feelings at me," she says. "I understand being afraid when you see the Reddit mob coming for you, but if people with less power can weather it — and we do, regularly — so can he."

Price says that prior to being fired, the company had never discussed her social media presence with her or issued a warning for anything she had posted. "If it was covered in orientation, I wouldn't know. I got pulled out of orientation to jump into rebreaking the story arc for this season of Living World." Furthermore, she says ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was "loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they 'admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.'"

Fries, a 12-year veteran of the company was also fired, presumably for a now-deleted series of tweets where he came to the defense of his co-worker. "Here's a bit of insight that I legitimately hope he reflects on: she never asked for his feedback," he says. "These are our private social media accounts — imagine you're an astronomer and you start sharing some things you've learned in the last few months since you began a research project observing Saturn, only to have observation techniques explained to you by a layman ... Jessica is great at her job and deserves to be treated with respect." Fries declined to comment further on the matter when contacted by The Verge.

ArenaNet and O'Brien have declined to comment further on their decision to fire Price and Fries. Instead, a spokesperson said O'Brien "would prefer to let his official statement on our forums stand for itself."

"Their attacks on the community were unacceptable," O'Brien's forum statement reads. "As a result, they're no longer with the company. I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you."

The Fries firing is the really weird part of this that does make it look pretty much like ArenaNet is just freaked out by their online community; all he did was defend her online and delete his posts. How did Fries "attack the community"?

I really feel like this would have been better handled with some sort of public "infraction" and not a firing; suspension, an apology, whatever.
 

Dot Matrix

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
173
User Banned (1 Week): Junior account vilifying journalism
https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1000045432007938048, JP is an unstable bitter human being yet in spite of this anet kept her employed. When she went off the rails against a well respected partner that anet works closely with to advertise THEIR GAME wtf did people expect was going to happen. PF also got shit canned probably so JP could lodge a "sexism" related wrongful dismissal suit.
10 mins of background is all it would take to learn the facts and make an informed assessment, kotaku are a fucking joke and should be blacklisted for anyone interested in truth and not bait clicking bias.
 

Call me YHWH

Member
Oct 26, 2017
724
Her response to him was pretty bad.

She didn't deserve to be fired over it. HR or a higher-up talking to her behind closed doors about divorcing herself from social media a little? Sure. A write up? Probably. Not fired.
 

Deleted member 16908

Oct 27, 2017
9,377
Random players telling them how to do their job better is something every developer deals with, male or female. I didn't see anything in that guy's response to her original tweet that seemed critical of her specifically because of her gender.

I don't think she deserved to get fired though, that seems excessive.
 

1080peace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
Welcoming criticism doesn't mean replying, it just means don't flip off the fucking handle when someone disagrees with you.
Again, I'm not talking about Price here. I'm responding to someone that said that developers should welcome criticism at all times and I completely disagree with that. You're not entitled to their time 24/7. They're people, keep your opinions to yourself or use the appropriate means to do so. Like official forums, specific Reddit pages, AMA, etc.

Name a company whose policy it is to ignore feedback from its customers. The (former) ArenaNet writer said that the guy who offered his criticism should meditate on whether he was asked for it. He doesn't have to do any such thing. They're a company; he's a customer; he doesn't have to hold his criticism until he's asked.
Not what I said and not what I meant.
 

BeeKaine

Banned
Apr 21, 2018
736
It's become normal to get fired over what you say on the internet. So in that sense, there is enough in her response to let her go. Peter Fries response is much more mild and it seems to me they also fired him to try to not make this about a woman getting harassed and fired.

OK so someone mentioned this and it's helpful

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/1...enanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit



The Fries firing is the really weird part of this that does make it look pretty much like ArenaNet is just freaked out by their online community; all he did was defend her online and delete his posts.

Yeah, I do believe Fries' firing is the kind of smokescreen, "mansplaining" that isn't overtly sexist but still influenced by gender; in that they don't want to look bad for firing a woman, so they'll fire the guy who defending her.

That might be actual sexism in play, and not mild as fuck criticisms.
 

MisterMangu

Banned
Feb 12, 2018
724
These two lines don't work together. Claiming that Fries 100% deserved to be fired while also claiming we have no clue what went on internally is the height of hubris.
Sure they do. Fries defending her and exacerbating this situation is already grounds for firing. He had 12 years, it could have been avoided but we don't know what went on internally.

Nothing said there contradicts each other.


Yup.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,495
I see a discussion on this finally appeared here. I first learned about it the day before the firings, when I opened the Reddit app as I very rarely do, and realized I was still subbed to the GW2 subreddit from my brief time with it years ago when I saw some shitty meme about this appear. I can't tell if the sub was brigaded or not, but it was kinda shocking how anyone who pointed out that everyone else was advocating for GG-like behavior got downvoted like hell.

My take is this: the Youtuber was "polite", but he was also being incredibly patronizing. He came in saying she was wrong, that what she said only applied to GW2 and not MMOs in general, and acted like multiple choice dialogue was somehow not a thing the writing team had considered. Maybe he meant well, but he was being insulting.

Her response was a bit harsh, maybe? But not really unfair. And ArenaNet's actions following this are pathetic; if they wanted to punish them still, they could have asked for an apology. But outright firing them, over the demands of a harassment mob, is pathetic. And maybe that's putting that lightly. Feeding these people what they want, 4 years after the start of GG, is abhorrent. Game companies never made up for their role in perpetuating this shit then and I guess they never will.

And, as always, it's disgusting to see people act like even her incredibly tame words criticizing a certain popular driver of harassment mobs justify anything.
 

BeeKaine

Banned
Apr 21, 2018
736
Again, I'm not talking about Price here. I'm responding to someone that said that developers should welcome criticism at all times and I completely disagree with that. You're not entitled to their time 24/7. They're people, keep your opinions to yourself or use the appropriate means to do so. Like official forums, specific Reddit pages, AMA, etc.

Again, yes, you're not entitled to anyone's time, but she made it her business to make it a part of her time.

Her ignoring criticism would have saved her, yes.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
Yo, I fucking hate how dude has to reiterate that's he's a feminist over this shit. Like, there are seriously people out there whose main takeaway from that entire twitter convo is "hey, that guy probably hates women". And the sad thing is, that slowly but surely, ERA's starting to represent exactly those kind of people to me.
Yep
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,219
It is sad to me that so many people are taking the Kotaku article and other sites as the full story. Folks, I implore you, please research the entire incident and see it in it's full light. I strongly recommend reviewing the entire scenario, all of the tweets, including the deleted ones from Fries, and reviewing everything thoroughly. Please. Please don't jump to knee jerk reactions. We have too much of that from extremely vitriolic individuals who all too willingly grab a torch and pitchforks like an angry mob seeking out a werewolf or vampire in an old 50's b horror movie.

I feel, personally, that the Kotaku article is biased, quite heavily in fact. Which is disappointing to me as while I will always very strongly and proudly support women in any and all fields; I also strongly feel that the entire truth of a story should be told. Even if the truth is extremely ugly.

What happened here was an Arena Partner and youtuber that is quite well known responded to Price's multiple tweets after an AMA that followed up on said AMA with additional thoughts. Deroir was extremely polite, sometimes exceedingly so, and sought to engage in some discussion with Price. She then proceeded to go off the rails at a speed of 0-1000 in a very short matter of time.

She was condescending, unprofessional, rude beyond measure in my opinion, and was completely unbecoming of an individual in any manner of civility no matter what way one tries to spin it. I feel very strongly about that. If one of my co-workers had reacted to me that way, they would be fired so fast their head would still be spinning.

People keep pointing to Price and saying things that this was solely against her, etc, but also forget that Fries was fired as well.

To wit. If I had acted in such a manner on social media and the company I worked for got wind of it, you can bet your biscuits that I would be hauled in Immediately in front of, if not the CEO / President of the Company himself ( Yes, this is a thing and it would happen if I screwed up like this ) then the director of NIT and would be promptly eviscerated before having to turn in my badge, pack my things, and be escorted off of the premises with due haste. IF I was even afforded the opportunity to GET my things to begin with.

And as much as I frigging LOATHE at At will work states, which mine now is...much to my immense hatred, it doesn't change the fact that any company in such a setting can fire an employ for any reason whatsoever that is deemed a significant enough infraction. Just as an Employee can also leave said company for any reason as well due to said laws.

Arena Net, in my opinion, was absolutely in the right here. I have seen co-workers get hauled out of the building for being rude, but far less to a capacity than she was. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior. Period. And she had the Arena Net noted in her twitter account and as such was a defacto representative of the company. If she truly did not want comments, her account should have been made private, or she should have stated something like. " These are my thoughts on the matter. I would respectfully like for others to not reply to this post. "

If folks think actions on twitter do not have consequences, please go take a look at Roseanne Barr as a good example of why unprofessional behavior on twitter when representing a company absolutely SHOULD have consequences.
Thanks for posting this.
It definitely feels like a lot of users only glance at the OP/title and run with that narrative -- I think the first thread on this should've been kept open, the later 2s OPs really seem like they tried to skew the events...
 

HP_Wuvcraft

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,267
South of San Francisco
Then to add fuel to the fire, the other dev comes and defends her rather than try to calm the situation down. Further inciting the situation.

It was a shitshow and a PR disaster for Anet.

We don't even know what went on internally when Mike confronted the two employees.

The firings were 100% justified.

Hold up.

How in the world can you say Fries was justifiably fired for simply defending Price?
 

Christine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
288
Gone
seriously if your opinion on this is "yeah jessica deserved to be fired" you have to account for peter fries, a 12 year veteran with no history whatsoever of problems, being fired for a single supportive tweet. that makes it crystal fucking clear what's going on here.

Abso-fucking-lutely. There is zero (0) evidence that the firings were driven by internal concerns and lots and lots of evidence that they were a capitulation made in hopes of sating an organized harassment campaign. The motive is understandable but it was deeply stupid as well as the wrong thing to do. Unfortunately, Arenanet will not be the only developers or studios who end up paying dearly for this mistake.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
OK so someone mentioned this and it's helpful

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/1...enanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

The Fries firing is the really weird part of this that does make it look pretty much like ArenaNet is just freaked out by their online community; all he did was defend her online and delete his posts. How did Fries "attack the community"?

He definitely didn't. Like I said before, I've literally worked in this exact lane of the industry for years and I can't support ArenaNet's handling of all this based on what I know.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
Agreed. Solid journalism in my opinion should get all sides of the story. Arena Net definitely should have been contacted as part of this article and brought into it, at least the attempt should have been made, I feel.

While the article in question cannot be considered either muckracking or yellow journalism in my opinion, it is most definitely an article that is hand tailored to drive home a narrative. One that is unfortunately obfuscating the truth of the matter.

To be entirely fair here, I'm pretty sure they said that ArenaNet did not want to comment further at the end of one of the paragraphs.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
To be fair, I think people should be allowed to critique whatever they want, although there is a difference between "this is what I think THEY should have done" and "this is what YOU should do". I think it does get weird when people send unsolicited critique to a person even if they are public, but I can't stop that. Maybe that's another discussion entirely. But getting back on subject, to be honest, I'm not sure if that first bullet point could be rephrased because it's the premise of the tweet itself that condemns the writing style of Price/GW2, even if he was trying to speak more generally about MMOs. The main thing I go to for it being mansplainy is the overall sum of the parts, especially the second bullet point. But even that first bullet point, saying "this is a limitation of the system"... like, she was kind of saying that. That thread of hers is pretty large and goes into detail about how the living story system and player expectation requires a certain amount of Mary Sue-ness -- even in games like The Division, you're essentially The Chosen One despite the fact that there are thousands of other Chosen Ones. She was admitting to flaws in the process and why they do things the way they do, and Deroir comes up and says "in my opinion I think there are flaws in the process"..

It's weird because he says he disagrees but I don't think his tweets really disagree with Price at all except for the branching dialogue suggestion, I think that's what rubs me the wrong way. It's like she said "This is hard because A B C" and he said "Actually it's hard because A B C, also maybe completely overhauling the game would work, give it a try". Like, he's nice about it, but it's not the tone that bothers me. But I also don't blame him for this current situation either; this is entirely on ANet and now he's going to get propped up by shitty GGers as their new hero, and chances are his streams are gonna get filled with bad eggs championing him. Like I feel pretty dang bad for him.
Thanks, again.

Perhaps he disagrees with the entire Living World system, so he says he disagrees that MMOs in general have to be that way.

I don't get what you mean by "a difference between 'this is what I think THEY should have done' and 'this is what YOU should do'" at all, though. Like, was he criticizing too much about the game or something? At what point does "I think the Living World system causes this" or a similar message goes from critique to talking down to somebody? Is "condemning GW2's writing style" offensive or problematic in any way?

I think I kind of get what you mean when it comes to Deroir's phrasing, but I think it's such a nuanced point that I think you can make an argument for 1. unconscious sexism, 2. general armchair devving, 3. a fully innocent mistake in phrasing, 4. correct phrasing misunderstood by Price, etc.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Again, I'm not talking about Price here. I'm responding to someone that said that developers should welcome criticism at all times and I completely disagree with that. You're not entitled to their time 24/7. They're people, keep your opinions to yourself or use the appropriate means to do so. Like official forums, specific Reddit pages, AMA, etc.

I respectfully disagree with the fact that Twitter isn't a place for it. Twitter is a platform built around tweeting and replying to tweets. If you post something on a public twitter account, it's assumed by the people viewing the tweet that responses are invited -- as again that's the point of the platform. To avoid that an account should be private, or a better venue for posting it should be found such as a blog where discussion is not invited.
 

Alautilus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20
And given her insufferable Twitter history, it's possible that the firing was not exclusively due to this incident, but rather it was the last straw.

already been noted that she was explicit with them about what her twitter presence was like during the interview and they said it was a positive, so, no, this is is not correct
 
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