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werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,319
One of the quotes from an Octopath Traveler developer was that the game was designed as a FF6 spiritual successor and although it looks like it'll be a fantastic game, one that I'm personally excited to play more of (enjoyed the 3-hour demo so much that I probably spent a good 7-8 hours on it), I don't think it'll quite scratch that FF6 itch. It did get me thinking about what a game would need to be considered a worthy FF6 successor and this is what I came up with.

Final_Fantasy_VI.jpg


1 - The presentation needs to be top-notch. At the time, FF6 had some of the best graphics & music for an JRPG around and so ideally, its successor should follow suit. But if the developer wanted to try to ape FF6 visuals style to really hit home the homage, well, that's another option.

2 - A large cast of playable characters with no definite lead. Although there were characters more important to the plot than others (Locke, Edgar, and Terra are way more critical than Gau, Umaro, and Mog), there's no real main character. This is emphasized a few times - early on when the game split into 3 scenarios when your party splits up and later on when you lose everyone and start over with just Celes.

3 - Characters play very differently. From Edgar's item-based abilities to Sabin's moves that require fighting game-style inputs to Relm/Strago/Gau's movesets which all are monster-based in different ways, the developers didn't skimp in programming unique ways to fight with and power-up your characters.

4 - Character backstories. Yeah, there's a few throwaway characters, but most characters have a reason for teaming up with your party & you get to explore their motivations, both through the main story, and through sidequests that focus on them.

5 - A villain you love to hate. Before Sephiroth, there was Kefka. Interestingly enough, Kefka is actually the 4th most talkative character in the game, with more dialogue than even Terra! The game gives the player plenty of opportunities to interact with & see Kefka's villainy so that it's all the more rewarding to finally take him out at the end of the game.

6 - Structure. FF6 uses a very common structure in JRPGs - it starts out linear and becomes more non-linear (more sidequests) as the game progresses. However, it takes this one step further and features a major fake-out ending partway through the game that results in major changes after (revamped world map). A worthy FF6 would most likely need to do something similar to really match the feeling.

7 - Memorable setpieces. At a time when most JRPGs were fine with the "Town, Dungeon, repeat" structure, FF6 was more ambitious. From the river raft to the opera house to Locke's escape from South Figaro to the Ghost Train, the game is jam-packed with memorable scenarios. For that matter, the game starts off with the player piloting mechs - something that would have been a major selling point in most games (see Xenogears) but is just a random gimmick FF6 throws out a handful of times.

8 - Drama. Things get dark. Major characters can and will die. Though there are lighter moments and you can avoid some bad stuff based on your actions (like Celes' attempted suicide doesn't have to happen), it's not all fun and games.

9 - Secrets. From little ones like hidden items scattered various places (clocks!) to big ones like entire dungeons that are easy to miss, FF6 doesn't skip on the hidden content. Some of it is even story-focused like Shadow's dreams.

10 - Fun transportation. Chocobos. Airships. Ghost Trains. A castle that can submerge itself underground. The Serpent Trench. In FF6, you're going to be travelling all around the world & you're going to be doing it in style.

So there you have my list. What do you think a FF6 successor would need to have? Are there any games that have come close in your opinion?
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,476
It would need to capitalize on the romanticism and steakpunk/victorian vision that the original stoked through pure imagination

Alos surprised you didnt mention music but I suppose Octopath somewhat delivers in that area
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,352
Lol, I was literally coming in to post "It needs to be Octopath Traveller".

I feel like FFVII and FFIX delivered sufficiently in being worthy follow ups, but the tone, presentation and style are definitely different. Your list is a great write-up though, very enjoyable read.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
I think that one thing that FF6 has that a lot of its successors don't is that the locations generally don't drag. There's no 10 hour tutorial sewer or anything — story beats in any one scenario seem to take a few hours tops. It also doesn't get bogged down with tons of filler side-quest or "hunt" content. It's a snappy game.

The turn based content also provided a lot of interactivity with each character having a different input and battle mechanics. That helped combat feel less monotonous, and it's always seemed odd to me that subsequent games never revisited that or the ideas Square explored with timing mechanisms in Super Mario RPG.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,929
Lol, I was literally coming in to post "It needs to be Octopath Traveller".

I feel like FFVII and FFIX delivered sufficiently in being worthy follow ups, but the tone, presentation and style are definitely different. Your list is a great write-up though, very enjoyable read.
Yeah, FFIX comes close to filling all of those (and, in a lot of ways, it does them even better). Just about the only two things it doesn't do is that the central cast is much smaller, even though it makes up for it with one of the series' best supporting casts, and it doesn't quite have the same mid-game tilt that FF6 has, even though it does have two/three major tipping points that are still great.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
Octopaths on track to check most of those boxes. From the demo we got #1-4 and 9.

I really want an FF6 remake in the style of Octopath.
 

LevityNYC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
78
The real answer is to not be released in 2018. There are so many reasons why FF6 can never be duplicated.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,476
Octopaths on track to check most of those boxes. From the demo we got #1-4 and 9.

I really want an FF6 remake in the style of Octopath.

Ehhh it would be cool but I think FF6 has a grander imaginative vision that could translate into an insanely beautiful and stylistic game

I wanna to see it pushed to the very edges of its concepts
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
What it needs first and foremost are setpieces. Final Fantasy VI is a game that is not afraid to tell itself "let's do this", even when it doesn't work at ALL like the minecart sections. But it doesn't care about, it's an ever-moving game that doesn't want to stick to a formula. There's always something new from the cutscenes, to the dungeons and also character abilities.

It's more than budget, it's more than presentation. What it has is a drive to deliver on new experiences as it goes, even if they weren't common. The World of Ruin is a masterstroke of design that tests the strength of its narrative against the player. An open-world that relies entirely on the motivation of the player to explore based on their attachments to the characters. FF6 is also not afraid to say "if you don't like it, then you won't, but if you do, this is only going to get better from here".

FF6 was made by a team who had the drive to insert their own ideas. Each character was thought up by different members of the staff. They didn't create them because they needed to, but because they wanted to insert their creation. Just look at Edgar & Sabin from Soraya Saga, their backstory is HUGE and you don't know about half of it int he game. But because that backstory is SOLID, the characters themselves are incredibly good. You don't need to know about their backstories, you only need to feel that they're characters with motivations that were crafted with care. Without that, you wouldn't get scenes like the coin flip, where Sabin realizes that Edgar sacrificed himself for the throne.

A worthy FF6 successor is a game that is challenging itself. It doesn't just strive to be good, it doesn't strive to be the quintessential JRPG of its era, it tries to be something new and refreshing. That's the fundamental difference between a game like FF6 and say, Chrono Trigger.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
From what I hear and I've seen, DQXI might be what I want from a game to be a successor to FF6 and many old JRPGs. I know the DQ series is too classic for some people but that's fine for me.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,621
As someone currently on another FF6 playthrough... The game can't be afraid to shake things up in a major way. The World of Ruin is one of the biggest shake-ups in gaming.

(I'm not saying every game needs to destroy the world halfway through.)
 

Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,055
Final_Fantasy_VI.jpg


7 - Memorable setpieces. At a time when most JRPGs were fine with the "Town, Dungeon, repeat" structure, FF6 was more ambitious. From the river raft to the opera house to Locke's escape from South Figaro to the Ghost Train, the game is jam-packed with memorable scenarios. For that matter, the game starts off with the player piloting mechs - something that would have been a major selling point in most games (see Xenogears) but is just a random gimmick FF6 throws out a handful of times.
Exactly this. This is exactly what separates FFVI from other JRPGs, including modern ones. This was thanks to director Hiroyuki Ito, who also directed IX and XII and even created the series' iconic battle system. He demonstrates a great knowledge of narrative design through these games and I wish he were to work on the next mainline FF.

From the FF wiki with citations:
When working as the game designer, Ito tries to balance the story and event scenes with the gameplay.[13] He believes it's important for the Final Fantasy series to keep the games fun to play, no matter how much technology keeps improving.[13] When he begins his work on a Final Fantasy game, he focuses on the gameplay and adapts this to the story. Ito thinks it is his job to smoothly implement the gameplay so the people in charge of the story do not have to worry about this aspect.[2] Though he mainly focuses on gameplay, he still contributed to the stories and characters in Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy IX.[3][5][8] He believes the most important factor of the Final Fantasy series is the player's feeling of accomplishment after beating the game.[14]
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
Exactly this. This is exactly what separates FFVI from other JRPGs, including modern ones. This was thanks to director Hiroyuki Ito, who also directed IX and XII and even created the series' iconic battle system. He demonstrates a great knowledge of narrative design through these games and I wish he were to work on the next mainline FF.

From the FF wiki with citations:

Let's not forget that Kitase worked on patching the story together. He has shown great proficiency in making cutscenes memorable while making them snappy. Great examples of "show don't tell" all throughout the game.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
I like how everything you listed would make Chrono Cross the best game in the world on paper.

It is one of the best games in the genre for sure. This game pulls no punches despite being extremely flawed. But I value games that tries but fails in parts far more than excellent games that does not tries anything new. I'm here for the highest highs, and Cross undeniably delivers for me.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,546
Amazingly charismatic characters, great story, epic and emotional setpieces, great villain, wonderful music and a fully realized, artistically interesting and consistent world were all that can take place.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,349
Santa Destroy
OP did a great job distilling Down most of what made FF6 so magical. Bravo.

I don't think a game as touched yet TBH.

Maybe one day.
I'm looking forward to OT, but after playing the demo, it's way more SaGa Stories. So won't make it as far as I'm concerned.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,476
Can we talk about how it also has one of the most satisfying and emotional endings of all time?

I still cry like a baby listening to the massive ending song
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
I've considered FFIX the definitive FFVI successor forever. It ticks most of your boxes. Especially in the character department.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,407
It cannot because the expectations are too high at this point. It's actually one of the reasons I expect that despite the FFFVII remake likely being excellent the more ardent fans will proclaim it a disappointment and complain about how they waited for a piece of crap.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,720
I didn't play the demos extensively, but the things that would make it feel like FF6 would be a somewhat dark/serious atmosphere (which I think it has) and strong, memorable leitmotif for each character, as well as a strong central theme that carries you through. Also, another thing that made FF6 memorable was a principal enemy who was basically just pure evil. I thought that was pretty refreshing at the time.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,900
It would have to be a direct sequel that reivents its gameplay completely so that its groundbreaking by todays standards.

Theres too many comparisons with old games, even your SSH gets compared to Chrono Trigger when its not realistic or fair. FF VI was the biggest RPG of its time that reinvents the genre with a cast bigger than its predecessors and reached a new level of epic storytelling. THATS the legacy not the minute stuff like Magitek and whatnot.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
Just repeating the same points but the mention of music got me thinking about: In the opening, after that brief overture, the game cuts to three people standing on a cliff overlooking Narshe with just the wind howling, a very quiet and lonely moment, and it's really emblematic of how insane the game is about trying to create this wildly cinematic experience in a 2D RPG.

It's obvious in later games that Square often seems to want to be making movies rather than games per-se, but FF6 is the point where the constraints of the SNES are forcing the game to burst at the seams with how their wild overambition is straining the limitations of the engine. There's a kind of alchemical magic that results from the insanity of stuffing things like a fight on a waterfall, mine cart races, a ghost train, an opera, an apocalypse et al into a 2D RPG. It pushes the format farther than it has any right to solely due to a refusal to be less ambitious.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,333
One of the quotes from an Octopath Traveler developer was that the game was designed as a FF6 spiritual successor

This soundbite that has become entrenched in many people's minds is not exactly accurate. The interview statement, in French, from producer Masashi Takahashi was "En termes de mécanique de jeu, si on avait conçu les Bravely Default comme une évolution de Final Fantasy V, on a créé Octopath Traveler comme une évolution du système de Final Fantasy VI." My rough English translation of that would be "In terms of game mechanics, if Bravely Default was conceived as an evolution of Final Fantasy V, Octopath Traveler was created as an evolution of the system of Final Fantasy VI." The majority of the points you list, which have to do with story and aesthetics, fall outside the bounds of the statement Takahashi made.

Now I also think it's worth backing up and asking just what a "spiritual successor" is in the first place, because I'm not sure everyone is using that term in exactly the same way.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
Ehhh it would be cool but I think FF6 has a grander imaginative vision that could translate into an insanely beautiful and stylistic game

I wanna to see it pushed to the very edges of its concepts

I think octopath is insanely beautiful and stylistic and could see the FF environments transfer easily.

How would you do it?
 

Slime Stack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,189
Puerto Rico
It's own identity. Something that captures the spirit of FF6 without feeling like it's being designed overtly as a FFVI successor. Any game that tries out to make a FFVI successor for the sake of making one will be doomed to fail as FFVI is a masterpiece. Call it Twilight Princess syndrome.
 

butman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,024
Octopath will not be the next FFVI.
Please don't do this to you.
 

Bartend3r

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,506
FF VI is completely out of its time. It does so many things well done that I get myself wondering why SE lost its hands on the series. It's definitely the most complex FF to date, from stories, to cast, to the summon based battle system.

Being a spiritual successor won't be an easy task to any game, and although I loved the demo and will be buying day one, OT does not seem to be that game.

6 is freaking timeless.
 

Freddo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,639
SmĂĄland, Sweden
Good list, I especially agree with 1, 4 and 5 but all of them are good. I would also like to see very little few anime tropes and no stupid tasteless fanservice. No immature bullshit that makes people who play facepalm.

And I can't highlight 1 enough, the music. The music in FF6 is so crazy good (I was actually really disappointed in FF7 cause I felt the music was so much weaker than the FF6 music), and is used so well. It got perfect music for every scene, character and so on. Same with Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross to mention some others, and it doesn't seem to happen that often in JRPGs anymore unfortunately, at least not in my experience, for example the music in Tales of Berseria is so bland.

FF6 is my favourite FF and I really enjoyed FF12 too. So I put my hopes on enjoying FF18 in 2026, maybe they got their groove back then :p
 

Rbz

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
675
There are so many standout elements of FF6, but I think the lack of a predictable flow is one of its strongest traits. Escorting a rebel leader down a river, fighting an octopus, navigating 3 split parties back together with their own crazy adventures like infiltrating imperial-occupied towns and escaping a ghost train...

There was absolutely no monotony or sense of boredom from thematic overuse. And to think that it maintained such a varied, interesting pace while treating you to its wonderful characters, music and narrative...god damn. What a game.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
What it needs first and foremost are setpieces. Final Fantasy VI is a game that is not afraid to tell itself "let's do this", even when it doesn't work at ALL like the minecart sections. But it doesn't care about, it's an ever-moving game that doesn't want to stick to a formula. There's always something new from the cutscenes, to the dungeons and also character abilities.

It's more than budget, it's more than presentation. What it has is a drive to deliver on new experiences as it goes, even if they weren't common. The World of Ruin is a masterstroke of design that tests the strength of its narrative against the player. An open-world that relies entirely on the motivation of the player to explore based on their attachments to the characters. FF6 is also not afraid to say "if you don't like it, then you won't, but if you do, this is only going to get better from here".

FF6 was made by a team who had the drive to insert their own ideas. Each character was thought up by different members of the staff. They didn't create them because they needed to, but because they wanted to insert their creation. Just look at Edgar & Sabin from Soraya Saga, their backstory is HUGE and you don't know about half of it int he game. But because that backstory is SOLID, the characters themselves are incredibly good. You don't need to know about their backstories, you only need to feel that they're characters with motivations that were crafted with care. Without that, you wouldn't get scenes like the coin flip, where Sabin realizes that Edgar sacrificed himself for the throne.

A worthy FF6 successor is a game that is challenging itself. It doesn't just strive to be good, it doesn't strive to be the quintessential JRPG of its era, it tries to be something new and refreshing. That's the fundamental difference between a game like FF6 and say, Chrono Trigger.
I fully agree. I think there is no FFVI successor more worthy than FFVII itself. If you want to make something that captures the FFVI magic, first thing you need to do is get off the nostalgia train and be bold. You can never achieve the height of FFVI if you only want to imitate it.
 
OP
OP
werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,319
Seriously. The premise of this thread is built on not reading past the headline and actually seeing what the developer said.

The entire premise of this thread is that I design RPGs & hearing FF6 brought up in regards to Octopath got me thinking about what it would require to make a game now that was lauded for similar things as FF6. It's clear from playing the Octopath Traveler demo that they're not trying to copy FF6, but that they're doing their own thing that takes some inspiration from various classic games, including FF6.

When we were designing Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 4, FF6 was brought up a lot. Looking back, we really missed the mark there, although I think we made a decent game anyway (just far from what made FF6 great).
 

Bartend3r

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,506
SE losing its hands on the series 15 years later is unrelated to the quality of FFVI. Different teams, different people. But there were multiple fantastic FF games after VI.
Undoubtely there are. The PS1 trio especially.

But none of them have gone as far as FF VI went. It's a game that is brave enough to try many things with no fear.

For me SE is yet to find its "magic" back, and I hope Octopath Traveler is the answer I want even even though I don't believe it is based on the demo and previews.
 

Chrno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
I just wanted an overarching story.. :( don't think that's happening tho.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
It is an interesting question.

Probably strange but some thoughts regarding it and FFXV towards this question. It is largely a personal exercise:

FFXV tried to call back to FFVI in a lot of ways and would've done a better job of it if it had been more fully realized: You have the magitek empire, on one continent, seeking to conquer the world, waging war with the summons, and being undone by the perverse technology they wield. Unlike Kefka, though, more a product of that perverse technology, in FFXV you have more the bad devil on the shoulder who sweeps in and brings about the fall, which colors the nature of the post-apocalyptic reset of the world. I've often thought about this and why it is kind of ignored as the parallels are extremely clear, but I think the answer is fairly obvious in the end: what FFXV borrows from FFVI in terms of its general outline is not what people care about with respect to FFVI so they don't associate the two and don't care about or just don't see the parallels.

The similarities end right about there and I think the points you lay out highlight why. XV goes for an Arthurian "chosen king" story where VI is famous for its ensemble cast and the lack of any fixed destiny for the characters (Terra having the closest thing to this). Instead, they are brought together by causes they choose and their ridiculous adventures. Similarly, returning to Kefka, he isn't chosen, rather his madness, however much his own and however much created through magitek, but chooses to become an evil god, for not much reason at all, other than to be an evil god. So I think that's an element: Final Fantasy VI pretty much avoids destiny melodrama and grand schemes on godhood in favor of more human struggles.

But more important is probably, as you point out, the sort of journey it is. It is immensely colorful, with big splashy moments, never afraid to be goofy, while, ultimately, not surrendering its ability to pack a punch. The cast is the same. Going back to Final Fantasy XV, you have a much more self-serious attempt at recreating modern bromance within a Final Fantasy setting, which even the goofiness serves. The aesthetic and the dynamic of the group is largely monotone towards this purpose. I'm not unsympathetic to what FFXV was going for, tbc, but just trying to draw out what is so different about them. That is, Final Fantasy VI wasn't afraid to be bold and garish but also just big, whereas FFXV had a much more studied and narrow aesthetic.