YOU CANT BE PARAPHRASING WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BAD WRITING MF
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I just Watched The Last Jedi, why was it controversial??
- Thread starter konka
- Start date
YOU CANT BE PARAPHRASING WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BAD WRITING MF
Here are the kills, aka definitely a display of GODlikE liGHtSaBER SKiLls and totally not a force sensitive scavenger scrapping by
Totally on par with Kylo:
They definitely NEVER make sure to explicitly emphasize the difference in skill level with the editing, shot composition and choreography:
Ofc the film is framed initially for the viewer to not trust Holdo as it's from Poe's perspective. However, the "Holdo should've listened to Poe" arguments make zero sense, the moment Leia shoots Poe is when it clicks for the audience. Poe agrees as he wakes up and Leia explains Holdo's motives. Makes no sense to continue arguing that Poe deserved to be let in on the plan anyway. It's like the people who still think Rey's parents are kenobis or skywalkers. The characters have moved past their block, but some of the audience hasn't.
God, I never get tired of this scene.
I know there are loads of fans that love TLJ, and I know some even hold it in the same regard as Empire, but I won't lie and say I understand why.
TLJ is a drastic departure from what we've seen in the past, and I think that's what people like, it's different. But in my mind it's a clunky, poorly told short story that can't hold a candle to the OT.
One example could be Kylo's helmet. Everyone knows Vader by his helmet. So in wanting to go "lol fuck your assumptions, this is n3w Star Wars", Rian has Ben break his helmet so he doesn't follow the same trope.
yep, i really liked Kylo's mask, felt like an actual star wars villain stylistically, and i liked the idea of Kylo intentionally donning the mask, so ofc i was going to be unreceptive to the stuff they did with it in TLJ
it was another jarring thing that happened between TFA and TLJ for me, in TFA Kylo worshiped vader and was looking for spiritual guidance from his legacy, perhaps even wearing the helmet to be closer to his grandfather, and then in TLJ that just all disappears, and the movie taking place immediately after chronologically makes this even more apparent and jarring
arguments can be made and debated that this was needed or that it was internally consistent thematically or what have you, but none of that requires me to be entertained by it, and i absolutely was not
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I just watched the movie, thought it was ok *shrug. Not a big star wars fan, but it was ok. Let's be honest, the film would have been better if Poe and Finn *Peach.emoji* and *Eggplant.emoji*, but's that's just me.
Kylo breaking his helmet as a result of his worldview being shattered makes perfect sense. It's not "let's subvert expectations by getting rid of the mask." Do you know how ridiculous it would be for Kylo to still be Vader lite after this metaphorical and literal roast?
See that's the thing though. All they would have had to do is take out the line where Snoke says take that ridiculous mask off.
Kylo could still get roasted, his world view could still be changed, and he'd still get to keep the one thing that we as viewers have grown to attribute with the character.
Kylo could still get roasted, his world view could still be changed, and he'd still get to keep the one thing that we as viewers have grown to attribute with the character.
Canto Bight was straight out of the prequels.
If the heroes had done nothing, there would have been less casualties.
Feels like a lot of set up from FA was chucked straight out the window.
Many of the characters feel like they ended right where they started, development wise.
Alien udder tits.
If the heroes had done nothing, there would have been less casualties.
Feels like a lot of set up from FA was chucked straight out the window.
Many of the characters feel like they ended right where they started, development wise.
Alien udder tits.
But the mask *is* ridiculous, particularly when he's modeling his look after a man who needed an iron lung n mask to breathe. Kylo's mask is a facade. He doesn't need it for any practical reason. Dude is a wannabe who deserved the dressing down. Also, an actor as quality as Adam Driver you want to see his face. You don't want him covered up in a mask the whole movie.
That's the real reason the mask was destroyed. And, the "ridiculous" line makes no sense. This is STAR WARS, everyone wears masks and robes. Snoke is calling Ren's mask ridiculous while surrounded by Red Masked guards in a ship full of masked, faceless soldiers berating a man whose a titled "Master" of a knighthood of masked dudes, while dressed in a golden bathrobe.
The mask was tossed because Ren needed to do some serious acting next to Daisy, he needed to appear sympathetic. That could never be accomplished with him wearing his mask. The campfire touch scene would look ridiculous. So, the mask was tossed.
That said, I wouldn't mind if JJ brought it back. Shit is way too cool to be used for one movie and we don't have to pretend Ren ain't evil now.
My main gripes are that rose was very one note and her actress was very stiff with her delivery. Stuff like "now it was worth it" and "I saved you dummy. That's how we'll win by saving the ones we love" or whatever she said just came off as cheesy to me and not in a good way. Also that "death" scene was worse than talia al ghul in TDKR and very selfish considering she had no idea luke was coming and for all she knew she just killed the resistance to save Finn
Then there's leias story. I'm not sure why holdo exists because I would rather just have leia be in her place. It seems to me that Johnson would have done that too but wanted to build up a character for a sacrifice while saving leia for the third movie. Unfortunately Carrie passed away but I can't think of any other reason than that to put her in a coma and have pretty much a copy of her lead the resistance and make the sacrifice. Like she could have said basically all the same lines and made the sacrifice herself instead of holdo and then that would have had a lot more weight to me because I didn't care about a character lasting like 1/3 of a movie and being pretty unlikable going off and killing her self. If that had been Princess Leia though? Man that would be epic
I also think Poe's arc was kinda sloppy. Like that run in the beginning was suicide even after he took out the cannons and it's not like he didn't know that fighters were coming and in force awakens he didn't seem as suicidal. Then he's just tricked into rebelling pretty much and everyone acts like he was crazy for going against orders when the orders seemed suicidal the way they were explained. I get the lesson they were going for but feel it could have been better handled by changing the situations to make him seem like the unreasonable one without being an idiot.
Finally there's luke. Man I really liked his arc for most of this film. Everything was going great and then that death. Like if he would have died actually fighting that's one thing. But he never once leaves the island and dies because he got tired after I was JUST celebrating that it was all a trick and he was safely out of harms way. It's just so cliche to kill the mentor character at the end and I think it would make more sense to have luke live on and teach Rey between this movie and the next so her power jumps seem more plausible. Also because I wanna see him actually do something in the end trilogy not a projection of his. And then they try to spin it as inspirational. Anyone can go die. What would have been more inspirational is to either take a bunch of the first order with you or to live through the projection trick and be in the falcon with Rey and all the resistance would be amazed that he was still there after they just thought he was killed
Some of the "bet your fan theory wasn't right on this though!" Moments were a bit on the nose for me too. The lightsaber toss being the worst. You can subvert expectations without being so "wink to camera" about it.
I'm not afraid of change nor did I have some fan theory I went in open minded and even liked snoke getting killed unexpectedly nor do I think Luke needed to do everything. I just don't like how he was handled and I think it was a clunky hand off from a film I really enjoy.
All that being said I did enjoy Finn, Rey, and Kylo in the film and MOST of Luke's arc. I think kylo and Rey have a great dichotomy going and look forward to seeing Finn and Poe lead the resistance next movie. I'd give TLJ a 5/10 (average)
So those are the only things I can think of as to why it's controversial. Well that and some people are racist but I really don't think that's even a notable amount of the people that don't like it those guys just like to spam everything with the same talking points to make it look like that
Then there's leias story. I'm not sure why holdo exists because I would rather just have leia be in her place. It seems to me that Johnson would have done that too but wanted to build up a character for a sacrifice while saving leia for the third movie. Unfortunately Carrie passed away but I can't think of any other reason than that to put her in a coma and have pretty much a copy of her lead the resistance and make the sacrifice. Like she could have said basically all the same lines and made the sacrifice herself instead of holdo and then that would have had a lot more weight to me because I didn't care about a character lasting like 1/3 of a movie and being pretty unlikable going off and killing her self. If that had been Princess Leia though? Man that would be epic
I also think Poe's arc was kinda sloppy. Like that run in the beginning was suicide even after he took out the cannons and it's not like he didn't know that fighters were coming and in force awakens he didn't seem as suicidal. Then he's just tricked into rebelling pretty much and everyone acts like he was crazy for going against orders when the orders seemed suicidal the way they were explained. I get the lesson they were going for but feel it could have been better handled by changing the situations to make him seem like the unreasonable one without being an idiot.
Finally there's luke. Man I really liked his arc for most of this film. Everything was going great and then that death. Like if he would have died actually fighting that's one thing. But he never once leaves the island and dies because he got tired after I was JUST celebrating that it was all a trick and he was safely out of harms way. It's just so cliche to kill the mentor character at the end and I think it would make more sense to have luke live on and teach Rey between this movie and the next so her power jumps seem more plausible. Also because I wanna see him actually do something in the end trilogy not a projection of his. And then they try to spin it as inspirational. Anyone can go die. What would have been more inspirational is to either take a bunch of the first order with you or to live through the projection trick and be in the falcon with Rey and all the resistance would be amazed that he was still there after they just thought he was killed
Some of the "bet your fan theory wasn't right on this though!" Moments were a bit on the nose for me too. The lightsaber toss being the worst. You can subvert expectations without being so "wink to camera" about it.
I'm not afraid of change nor did I have some fan theory I went in open minded and even liked snoke getting killed unexpectedly nor do I think Luke needed to do everything. I just don't like how he was handled and I think it was a clunky hand off from a film I really enjoy.
All that being said I did enjoy Finn, Rey, and Kylo in the film and MOST of Luke's arc. I think kylo and Rey have a great dichotomy going and look forward to seeing Finn and Poe lead the resistance next movie. I'd give TLJ a 5/10 (average)
So those are the only things I can think of as to why it's controversial. Well that and some people are racist but I really don't think that's even a notable amount of the people that don't like it those guys just like to spam everything with the same talking points to make it look like that
There is far more to it than that. Don't let the fact that those people exist in the fandom make you think that's the only way you could dislike the movie.
This is absurd. More people than not expected Kylo to not keep his mask.. He didn't even have it on at the end of TFA and appeared to have left it behind. The consensus on GAF and here was that he would probably not have his mask or use it much in TLJ.
Leaving his mask behind is not a subversion of expectations.
Not only that but thematically and narratively, it makes perfect sense for his character.
Again, you could easily speculate that he would rid himself of it/not have it, post TFA.
Last Jedi to me felt like it had a different storytelling sensibility than the other Star Wars movies, one I associate with (good) Japanese media - I think of it as "Anime Star Wars." Media that change things up like that tend to be divisive, it's unfortunate that got tangled up with political tribalism. Personally I enjoyed it a lot, btw I also like the prequel trilogy, in general I tend to be drawn to the "weird/black sheep" installments of popular series.
Saying "but he looked cool in it" is not a good enough reason for him to keep the mask when the movie provides very compelling narrative reasons for his character to destroy it.
I continue to be amazed by the number of people online who think RJ literally set out to subvert SW and fuck with fans. Like every writing decision he made was motivated by this.
I continue to be amazed by the number of people online who think RJ literally set out to subvert SW and fuck with fans. Like every writing decision he made was motivated by this.
STAR WIPE IN:
EXT. CANTO BIGHT - NIGHT
The planet lays in smolders a rows and columns of KNIGHTS OF REN march through the dead bodies of boys with BROOMS and mutilated FATHIERS. Suddenly, an armored man stops and holds up his hand.
CLOSEUP ON HAND
UNNAMED MAN
Sir, I got it!
A man in the bag pushes his way up. As he gets closer, we see that it is a shirtless KYLO REN, smoldering and sweaty from the fires still burning around all those previously mentioned dead children with brooms and space animals. He looks down and smirks with a cheshire cat smile.
CUT TO PILE ON GROUND
REN extends his hand toward the pile. He hesitate, then trusts it forward in a very manly fashion. He dusts off some of the ruuble to expose some BLUE or PURPLE HAIR. He smirks again with a cheshire cat smile. Plunging his hands down, he grabs the object hidden beneath the incredibly distracting hair to find HIS HELMET.
CUT TO CLOSEUP OF REN'S FACE
KYLO REN
(smirking)
For the patriarchy!
I'm available to be hired, Mr. Abrams! (also, I'm proud of my ready player one dunking as well).
Edit: and, obviously this is meant to be a joke. Simmer down. a joke because it isn't saving my formatting. :(
EXT. CANTO BIGHT - NIGHT
The planet lays in smolders a rows and columns of KNIGHTS OF REN march through the dead bodies of boys with BROOMS and mutilated FATHIERS. Suddenly, an armored man stops and holds up his hand.
CLOSEUP ON HAND
UNNAMED MAN
Sir, I got it!
A man in the bag pushes his way up. As he gets closer, we see that it is a shirtless KYLO REN, smoldering and sweaty from the fires still burning around all those previously mentioned dead children with brooms and space animals. He looks down and smirks with a cheshire cat smile.
CUT TO PILE ON GROUND
REN extends his hand toward the pile. He hesitate, then trusts it forward in a very manly fashion. He dusts off some of the ruuble to expose some BLUE or PURPLE HAIR. He smirks again with a cheshire cat smile. Plunging his hands down, he grabs the object hidden beneath the incredibly distracting hair to find HIS HELMET.
CUT TO CLOSEUP OF REN'S FACE
KYLO REN
(smirking)
For the patriarchy!
I'm available to be hired, Mr. Abrams! (also, I'm proud of my ready player one dunking as well).
Edit: and, obviously this is meant to be a joke. Simmer down. a joke because it isn't saving my formatting. :(
As long as you don't like GT the best or the naruto filler arcs we're cool
Stuff looking cool is the primary reason for most things in Star Wars, they then try to come up with some compelling explanation afterwards. It's the reason Jedi fight with laser swords, Vader wears a cape and Samurai type mask, and everyone wears cloaks. It's science fantasy.
This same mentally carries over to TLJ. If you watched the BTS doc then you know Rian wasn't thinking of some practical reason for the ski speeders on Crait to exist. He just wanted something that kicked up Red Dirt/Salt as it went because it looked cool. It's also the same reason the Resistance bombers look the way they do.
Putting something in just because it looks cool is fine as long as you come up with a compelling enough reason after.
Dude that isn't what I said and you know it. I said keeping the mask on because it looks cool isn't a good enough reason when the movie provides much more compelling reasons to rid of it. I never once said in my post that things shouldn't exist in SW for the coolness factor alone.
This discussion all started because Charcoal actually believes RJ got rid of Kylo's mask because he wanted to write a hur hur this is new SW. Like come on man.
Nothing says "fuck this goddamn earth" more than your sensei roasting your shit about being weak right after you killed your dad for the clout
I don't think it's the only way. I think those two groups are a very large portion of it, however.
I also didnt like they way Finn was cast to the backround. Snoke was a joke. Luke was a joke mostly.
I know what you were saying and agree I was providing further clarification and support for if JJ wants to bring back the mask. It wouldn't have worked in TLJ, but it could probably work in Ep. 8 where Kylo is the main villain now.
It's too bad you can't just remove the mask for important scenes, then put it back on.
They should have done that in TFA to get brilliant performances out of Driver when necessary.
That couldn't work with TLJ because every scene after the opening with him requires him to be unmasked. He's basically just sitting around skyping with Rey the whole movie. That necessitates him being unmasked, especially since we want to believe he can be turned. Really the only time it would make sense to have his mask on is the attack on Crait, it would make even more sense for him to wear it against Luke. But, we the audience want to see every expression on his face when that confrontation occurs so it wouldn't have been practical then either.
I do think they can return to TFA approach in Ep. 8 since he doesn't need to appear sympathetic anymore, but needs to be a menacing foe. He can then remove it for important emotional scenes.
Why does he no longer need to be sympathetic and needs to be menacing?
They.. Literally could have just had him keep the mask off for those scenes and keep it on for action scenes or what have you. It's not like he keeps the damn thing on when he's in his quarters reading.
The reason the mask was destroyed was because it made sense thematically.
Like I said, the consensus on GAF and here was that Kylo wouldn't have his mask in TLJ. I personally predicted he'd not have it because it makes sense for the story being told (ie shedding himself of Vader). Lots of other people did as well.
Not a difficult thing to foresee.
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It casually discarded all of the buildup of Episode Vii that fans had been speculating about for years. And it was essentially a two hour low speed space chase with nothing interesting or exciting. And the casino planet was awful and felt like a scene from an early Harry Potter movie
This is from a while back but I'm still playing catch-up with the thread so bear with me:
This has been pointed out by someone else so I won't go into it much but that conversation wasn't out of nowhere. It's oretty organically brought up...
That line, while absolutely corny, is not out of nowhere. It's built up to by the entire film so far and is also the point of Rose's character arc. Poe's eagerness to do as much damage as possible to the First Order cost the Resistance a huge portion of their men, including Rose's sister. Paige died so they could destroy a single ship, and in the end it didn't help them one bit. Rose knows this and doesn't want to let it happen anymore. Finn refuses to let the fact that he won't make it dissuade him from a pointless suicide run, so she stops him by force at the cost of her own safety.
But the line applies to not only her, but the whole cast. Luke's instinct to draw his lightsaber when he senses the darkness in Ben is what leads to his depression and exile as well as Kylo Ren as a villain. Kylo's entire goal is destroying what he hates, and it gets him nowhere. Killing his classmates, killing his father, killing Snoke... none of those things helped him achieve his goals, and only plunged him deeper into the dark. He finally reaches his goal of fighting Luke, and he fails. He completely loses to a foe who doesn't even try to strike him once (and in fact isn't even there), and the resistance easily escapes his grasp.
But when we see characters act for the sake of others, we see success. Holdo's sacrifice isn't to destroy the Supremacy, it's to save the escapees. And it succeeds. Luke expends all of his energy to save the Resistance which not only lets them escape but inspires a new generation. Hell, even the dumb dog chase scene was about this. Freeing them and the slaves may not have panned out how they intended, but it let them (momentarily) escape and helped inspire said slaves to one day be heroes.
Again, this tells me that you're just kind of using "writing" and terms like story arc to mean what suits your argument at the time.
Rey doesn't go to find him because she'll get away with it, she goes because she is brash, naive, and falling straight into Snoke's trap. Her journey there is a failure. It's a flaw. She fucks up and barely escapes with her life.
A movie can be well written and fall flat for you. It happens all the time. Everyone has their own opinions and obviously many fans don't like where TLJ took the series or how it was presented. Hell, I have plenty of my own complaints about the story! But none of those things involve the writing. As a continuation of Force Awakens it's jarring and leaves a lot to be desired. It doesn't feel like the middle of a trilogy so much as its own thing. But the writing is a well-oiled machine and serves the themes and plot. Everything ties together to deliver the messages and story that Johnson set out to tell. That's why critics and industry members like it.
See, this is what my post was about. "Why can't these people whose job is to critique films and the people whose job is to make them see why they're actually wrong?" The people who are the most eager to accuse films of bad writing are the ones who tend to understand it the least. Writing is a discipline not a catch all term for things that didn't sit well with you.
This has been pointed out by someone else so I won't go into it much but that conversation wasn't out of nowhere. It's oretty organically brought up...
That's not how the conversation went and it sets up Rose as a character but okay
The dialogue is cheesy, sure, but nothing out of place in a Star Wars film. Star Wars is a hammy series by design. You could pick out lines like that from any of the series.
That line, while absolutely corny, is not out of nowhere. It's built up to by the entire film so far and is also the point of Rose's character arc. Poe's eagerness to do as much damage as possible to the First Order cost the Resistance a huge portion of their men, including Rose's sister. Paige died so they could destroy a single ship, and in the end it didn't help them one bit. Rose knows this and doesn't want to let it happen anymore. Finn refuses to let the fact that he won't make it dissuade him from a pointless suicide run, so she stops him by force at the cost of her own safety.
But the line applies to not only her, but the whole cast. Luke's instinct to draw his lightsaber when he senses the darkness in Ben is what leads to his depression and exile as well as Kylo Ren as a villain. Kylo's entire goal is destroying what he hates, and it gets him nowhere. Killing his classmates, killing his father, killing Snoke... none of those things helped him achieve his goals, and only plunged him deeper into the dark. He finally reaches his goal of fighting Luke, and he fails. He completely loses to a foe who doesn't even try to strike him once (and in fact isn't even there), and the resistance easily escapes his grasp.
But when we see characters act for the sake of others, we see success. Holdo's sacrifice isn't to destroy the Supremacy, it's to save the escapees. And it succeeds. Luke expends all of his energy to save the Resistance which not only lets them escape but inspires a new generation. Hell, even the dumb dog chase scene was about this. Freeing them and the slaves may not have panned out how they intended, but it let them (momentarily) escape and helped inspire said slaves to one day be heroes.
Again, this tells me that you're just kind of using "writing" and terms like story arc to mean what suits your argument at the time.
The entire thing with Rey and Kylo isn't them become frenemies via force-Skype. It's a trap that plays on both their insecurities. They learn about each other and each one sees the other as someone like them that they might be able to help out and gain an ally. Both are wrong.
Rey doesn't go to find him because she'll get away with it, she goes because she is brash, naive, and falling straight into Snoke's trap. Her journey there is a failure. It's a flaw. She fucks up and barely escapes with her life.
You can't articulate why the writing is bad because you don't actually understand what writing is. I really don't mean this as a slight, nor am I trying to paint myself as some screenwriting genius. But what you're claiming is bad writing is a combination of things like dialogue or humor you don't like and parts where you weren't paying attention or thought the plot was stupid.
A movie can be well written and fall flat for you. It happens all the time. Everyone has their own opinions and obviously many fans don't like where TLJ took the series or how it was presented. Hell, I have plenty of my own complaints about the story! But none of those things involve the writing. As a continuation of Force Awakens it's jarring and leaves a lot to be desired. It doesn't feel like the middle of a trilogy so much as its own thing. But the writing is a well-oiled machine and serves the themes and plot. Everything ties together to deliver the messages and story that Johnson set out to tell. That's why critics and industry members like it.
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Well said.
I feel one of the most important things a person should learn if they want to critique something is to recognise that just because you disliked something doesn't mean it's automatically bad.
It might be that most people were supposed to agree with Poe until Holdo reveals that she does indeed have a plan so that expectations can once again be subverted. Rian Johnson seems to get a real kick out of doing that. Some would have noticed that the movie wants to present Poe as a hothead before that.
Similarly just because you like something doesn't mean it's automatically good.
I always thought they should of gone another way with Ren's turn. I didn't buy Luke's betrayal, perhaps Ben should of had a sister who was killed in some tragic way I don't know. I know people change over time but considering how Luke refused to kill Vader, despite the terrible crap he did I couldn't believe in this.
That's just movie storytelling, not "subverting expectations". Sometimes you have to hide things from the audience by limiting their perspective, both visually and narratively. He was demoted for destroying the Resistance's fleet against Leia's orders and had no right to be in on Holdo's plan, he's just a pilot. Poe's arc is that he goes from being a reckless hothead willing to throw lives away to being someone who recognises that not every battle can be won. A potential leader-in-waiting. When faced with a similar "fight or flight" situation at the end of the movie, he makes the opposite choice to the one he made at the start of the movie.
Luke was only stopped from decapitating the Emperor by Vader blocking his saber. He then sliced off his father's arm and was about to kill him before coming to his senses. That's two times he tried to kill people when the Rebel fleet and later Leia were threatened. When confronted with Ben's darkness he had a much less aggressive response but fear of the future again took hold of him briefly. That's what Luke gave in to. Fear. He shook himself out of it much quicker than he did when he was about to kill Vader but he still felt it.
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can't say i see the "anime" in TLJ
imho the movie just got caught in wanting to subvert clichè, tropes and expectations without realizing that said tropes are so ever-lasting because they work
also,considering that this was supposed to be a trilogy, giving the second movie in the hands of a different guy with complete power over the story was not a great call.
I don't think anything was hidden. The movie was pretty blatantly presenting Poe as a careless hothead from the start.
The broad strokes of SW, i.e. underdogs vs superior foe, light triumphing over darkness, cute droids and creatures, etc that will never change. Those are the basic ingredients of SW.
That doesn't mean every movie has to wheel out the same tropes every time. You can see from the criticism of TFA that a lot of people were beginning to tire of those tropes.
I'm talking about Holdo's plan being kept hidden from Poe and by extension the audience.
Thos is also true, and being able to express oneself and actually critique something beyond "it was a POS" or "it's bad because it's stupid" or "you could cut out the b plot with no issues to the main story".
There's no analysis there, and has a lack of critical thinking ehilw also being overly aggressive/negative.
It's possible to be critical of things without sounding like a 12 year old.
He refused to kill Vader after nearly killing him in bloodlust.
What we see in TLJ is pretty improved considering he had a similar moment of pure instinct and didn't act on it.
Should not have jumped on you. My bad. I would be fine if he brought back the mask too
Time will reveal it was trash all along.
Especially when JJ retcons it to hell with IX.
Calling it now.
Especially when JJ retcons it to hell with IX.
Calling it now.
Nah JJ isn't a hack. He's got a lot of respect for what Johnson did with the series.