SSB was designed to be a party game, but how many people actually play it as Sakurai intended?

Skronk said:

Smash is and will always be a party game that pro players have twisted into something competitive. I hope they never make it with a competitive mindset.

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There's a pretty strong difference between "No items Fox only Final Destination" and "random chaotic shit happening every five seconds to the point that no skill is involved at all." As I noted in my above post, turning off some of the more annoying items while leaving the rest on has always been viewed as a strong compromise in my group sessions.

My entire strategy is to play as a suicide grabbing Bowser or DK, so needless yo say, I take the game very seriously.

BDS said:

There's a pretty strong difference between "No items Fox only Final Destination" and "random chaotic shit happening every five seconds to the point that no skill is involved at all." As I noted in my above post, turning off some of the more annoying items while leaving the rest on has always been viewed as a strong compromise in my group sessions.

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But the true compromise is Pokeballs only on Pokefloats :P

The vast majority of the owners of any Super Smash title are playing it as a party game.

Xaszatm said:

But the true compromise is Pokeballs only on Pokefloats :P

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Bringing back Poke Floats is really my only remaining demand of Sakurai.

The minute fraction of people who play a competition based game five years after release are super competitive? Sounds reasonable.

As long as you realize anyone playing a game more than four years later is a super outlier.

Xaszatm said:

I like how competitive is this own category as if pokeball slapfights aren't a thing in the competitive community as well.

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Competitive players enjoy all kinds of things while I don't think its very common for casual players to want to aspire to enter tournaments. Its not uncommon to see Mango or Axe trying to beat All Star mode on Very Hard with weird characters.

Those players also started playing the games casually like anyone else, but they loved it so much that this crazy new appeal emerged from the game out of pure passion for it.

BDS said:

Bringing back Poke Floats is really my only remaining demand of Sakurai.

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No Fountain of Dreams? :(

items on is the only way I play.

makes the matches more chaotic.

I olayed Smash Wii U only as party game.

.

Skronk said:

Smash is and will always be a party game that pro players have twisted into something competitive. I hope they never make it with a competitive mindset.

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The game is always competitive. You fight too win.

What many people don't like about the competitive community, is that they sound like, they want to own the game and that it should be centered about there liking ("casual players will eat up anything!" which is a very bad mindset to have). But Sakurai recently said, he doesn't want to do that. He tries to make all sides happy, which means, that he can't give anybody 100% anything they want, but tries to find a fair balance between both favors.

Smash has always been a party game to me since the N64 days. Items on, three mates with me on the couch, beers, chips, good times.

Smash might have not been intended to be super competitive or anything, but Sakurai added options to turn things on and off for a reason. He really wants it to be a game you can play however you want, basically.

Max Stock, pokeballs only, 8 players

The way it's meant to be played

Anecdotal but I mostly play with items and stage hazards on. I have my mains but I enjoy using most of the roster due to the simplicity of most of the characters and their inputs.

I can recognise that the game can be played competitively and hope that Sakurai never does anything to hinder anyone's enjoyment of the game, but removing the chaotic elements strips a lot of the entertainment value out of the game for me.

About the only opinion I have on the game and its competitive scene is that it should really move on from Melee.

ynthrepic said:

So many people keep telling me, but I'm not convinced so many people are still playing them in this way. I wish statistics existed for play styles over time. Hours played with items on vs items off n-months after release. I mean Nintendo are a business, so they are probably not wrong about the bias toward party-play, but I do wonder if they are paying close attention to how people are playing the game many months after its release. It clearly doesn't matter to their bottom line since initial sales are the primary bankroll.

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The vast majority of people still playing Super Mario World right now are probably speed runners and hackers. Indeed, why does it matter?

.

99.9999999999999% of them.

Unicorn said:

Do you all play Stock matches or Time matches?

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Stocks are vastly preferred but if there are some players in the room that have a tendency to die quickly switching to time is a good idea to keep them engaged.

Shahadan said:

Max Stock, pokeballs only, 8 players

The way it's meant to be played

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You forgot the most important rule of them all: No attacking. Every death MUST be because a Pokemon killed someone.

Majority of buyers play it like a party game and single player/co-op fighter with tons of content and unlockables through its various modes, and its why its so popular because of how big the casual demographic is and how much they like these things.

Millions. And millions.

The fgc aspect of the game is minuscule compared to the average Smasher.

The majority obviously play it casually with items.

However amongst groups of casual friends I've known some people who like items and some people who don't. Also in my experience people tend not to like the really annoying stages like Pac-Land or Orbital Gate Assault. And I've never met a casual player who prefers time over stock.

I certainly do.

I find Smash without items/stages with hazards etc. to be boring as hell.

Most people (aka every person I know in real life that plays games) play it with items on and stock lives. I've never known anyone to turn items off. Seems stupid and not fun.

I NEVER play time matches. Seriously wish when we set it to stock it would stay that way. Anyway I do 3 stock matches, any stage goes, with items on low.

10 million people bought the last smash bros right? So I'd guess that about 9.5 million people play it like a party game. Just guessing.

ara said:

I play them solely as party games. Not interested in the competitive aspect in the least. The chaos is the part I enjoy about them.

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This. I don't care about competitive play - when I play this it's with people who just enjoy fighting with pikachu against donkey kong.

ynthrepic said:

I am especially interested in the opinions of or statistics concerning dedicated fans of the series who still play the game regularly, but are not necessarily interested in "competitive" (meaning tournament, or professional) play. In other words, the long term play statistics of the game.

Do these players generally play with time and items on, making full use of all the stages and the character roster? Or do they disable most of the RNG and stick to balance stages to make the play experience more competitive?

It is my theory (based on my very limited experience) that the half-life of any party-game is pretty short, and that those who treat SSB like a party-game, probably enjoyed it for a few months, and then moved on. I believe that when it comes to busting out the WiiU or Wii, SSB just isn't as fun as other party games (like Mario Party, Warioware*, etc.) when it comes to entertaining guests. This is because it's very random, and at the same time, still just a little bit too complicated to just pick up and play without experience.

I guess I'm interested in the answer to this question because it baffles me that Nintendo continues to develop and market SSB as primarily a party-game. If I was being uncharitable, I would say that they are merely concerned with outright sales figures and the honeymoon period, and they are less concerned with dedicated players (whether competitive or casual) who pick up and play the game many months or years after its initial release. But if I was to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt, then I must surely be wrong.

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I like playing without items online but when I'm with friends items are always on. And the game comes out pretty regularly during the gaming parties I go to.

I am the only person who plays it as Sakurai intends.

4 Player FFA, Stock, Jigglypuff, Items On, Kalos

ynthrepic said:

Because I think that Nintendo estimates the value of encouraging and supporting competitive play (which is to say regular play among friends and via online matchmaking, not just professional play). To think Nintendo will ever release a version with the competitive quality of SSBM with ongoing balance improvements and roster additions seems like a pipedream. But I think if they did do it, it would be a success. Just having the option in the menu, with a proper ladder system.

I think you just have to look at the success of MOBAs to see that you can have millions of players that will play regularly for years if the conditions are right. I can see a fighting game achieving this kind of success, but not without coming off the back of a really successful IP or similar game. Anyway, this is another discussion, but it is why I'm passionate about understanding how regular, long-term fans of the game want their game to be.

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They don't use a business model that depends on that happening in the first place. Not sure why it's remotely relevant how LONG people keep playing the games. I guarantee you 99% of the people playing Melee today are hardcore 1v1 players, but that's completely removed from any meaning as far as developing the game. They haven't made a dime off of selling melee shit for ages.

I'm not convinced they have anything to gain by altering smash to go for long term hardcore engagement, when that audience is going to be there anyway already, especially not by alienating the MAJORITY of the people that buy and play smash.

I would say most people.

ynthrepic said:

Because I think that Nintendo underestimates the value of encouraging and supporting competitive play (which is to say regular play among friends and via online matchmaking, not just professional play). To think Nintendo will ever release a version with the competitive quality of SSBM with ongoing balance improvements and roster additions seems like a pipedream. But I think if they did do it, it would be a success. Just having the option in the menu, with a proper ladder system.

I think you just have to look at the success of MOBAs to see that you can have millions of players that will play regularly for years if the conditions are right. I can see a fighting game achieving this kind of success, but not without coming off the back of a really successful IP or similar game. Anyway, this is another discussion, but it is why I'm passionate about understanding how regular, long-term fans of the game want their game to be.

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Because what you are asking for is a product that will affect a very small percentage. Just accept that you are part of a minority.

Dyle said:

Sakurai doesn't intend for anyone to play the game in one specific way, that's why you have so many options to change everything. However I have never met a single person, no matter the skill level, who prefers time over stock

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My friends and I play it as a mix between casual and competitive. We only play as Captain Falcon, no items, Omega stages only and if we are less than four people we fill the rest with Captain Falcon bots at Level 9, sometimes we also do 8-Player Smash with four extra Captain Falcon bots. And we never play stock, time only at three minutes just to enjoy the chaos and mayhem, especially when a sudden death happens. Then it's everyone goes as far away from each other as possible, we run at each other and make Knee of Justice duels, it's mad fun! :D

Of course if someone wants to pick something else than Captain Falcon that's okay too but the rest of the rules never change for us.

ara said:

I play them solely as party games. Not interested in the competitive aspect in the least. The chaos is the part I enjoy about them.

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Same here. Never even thought of Smash as a competitive game within my friends circles.

I've only ever played it as a party game.

I nearly always play with items on, random stages, and random characters.
The only items on Smash WiiU I have turned off are the Gust Bellows, 1-UP flag, and the Galaga thing that grabs you as those items feel pretty cheap to use - especially when you're playing with people who aren't as familiar with the game.

I think in the modern gaming era, where local multiplayer takes a huge backseat to online, you can mitigate the negative effects of games being incredibly unfriendly to new players (due to experts who just trash them relentlessly) with a good enough matchmaking system, and a system which doesn't allow or encourage smurfing.

Do I think Nintendo/Smash developers will achieve this? No. But at the same time, the switch is the first Nintendo console I've owned since the n64, and this will be my first smash brothers purchase, looking forward to getting trashed relentlessly and seeing what all the fuss is about.

I play it as a party game, but my friends don't want to, so most games are no items with stocks

Also when I play with strangers (mostly kids) they die to much, for when they gets knock out at low % (under 50%), they can't get back up, for they don't try up+B.

But if they play SF/Tekken they can win their fights sometimes, in Smash they just die to fast to notice.

So if Sakurai want more players, the game need an easier up+B button like Y or X or D-pad Up!

ynthrepic said:

Because I think that Nintendo underestimates the value of encouraging and supporting competitive play (which is to say regular play among friends and via online matchmaking, not just professional play). To think Nintendo will ever release a version with the competitive quality of SSBM with ongoing balance improvements and roster additions seems like a pipedream. But I think if they did do it, it would be a success. Just having the option in the menu, with a proper ladder system.

I think you just have to look at the success of MOBAs to see that you can have millions of players that will play regularly for years if the conditions are right. I can see a fighting game achieving this kind of success, but not without coming off the back of a really successful IP or similar game. Anyway, this is another discussion, but it is why I'm passionate about understanding how regular, long-term fans of the game want their game to be.

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Nintendo/Sakurai is never going to sacrifice the upfront sales boost of marketing Smash to mainstream consumers just to placate the competitive Smash scene.

Nor are those people even the roadblock to basic ass things like continual balance patches or an online ladder.

Not sure I agree with the assertion that party gamers have a shorter term attachment than competitive ones. I don't get as much time for party gaming as I used to since I work and live independently, but me and my friends still go back to things like wario ware MM on the gamecube, bomberman on saturn, and of course plenty of mario kart 8 on the WiiU. The big limiting factor is really the convenience of having old consoles around.
I mostly like to play with items on and yeah, stock mode. But I've also had some friends make it a regular thing and would have items off, and we'd usually have the full 8 players with people swapping in and out, still pretty casual.
I do tend to find some friends just want nothing to do with smash bros because they just "dont get it" or "cant keep up" which isn't a thing for games like mario kart, but those who like it tend to rate it as a fave they keep coming back to.

ynthrepic said:

I am especially interested in the opinions of or statistics concerning dedicated fans of the series who still play the game regularly, but are not necessarily interested in "competitive" (meaning tournament, or professional) play. In other words, the long term play statistics of the game.

Do these players generally play with time and items on, making full use of all the stages and the character roster? Or do they disable most of the RNG and stick to balance stages to make the play experience more competitive?

It is my theory (based on my very limited experience) that the half-life of any party-game is pretty short, and that those who treat SSB like a party-game, probably enjoyed it for a few months, and then moved on. I believe that when it comes to busting out the WiiU or Wii, SSB just isn't as fun as other party games (like Mario Party, Warioware*, etc.) when it comes to entertaining guests. This is because it's very random, and at the same time, still just a little bit too complicated to just pick up and play without experience.

I guess I'm interested in the answer to this question because it baffles me that Nintendo continues to develop and market SSB as primarily a party-game. If I was being uncharitable, I would say that they are merely concerned with outright sales figures and the honeymoon period, and they are less concerned with dedicated players (whether competitive or casual) who pick up and play the game many months or years after its initial release. But if I was to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt, then I must surely be wrong.

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playign with friends i usually play with items on and any stage and whatnot...smash 4 "for fun" mode though was kind of unplayable..first because it was timed and timed sucks..second because the bad netcode made everything way too sluggish to be fun to play..so i usually defaulted to for glory

i would have loved for the game to have the ability to do 1 vs 1 with randos with items on and normal stages..sure some things are more random, but it also adds another dimension to the game that it's missing playing with flat stages and items off

apart from smashballs, never have been a fan of those.

Playing with the items off would be boring as hell.

Most of my time is playing the game solo for fun and to unlock what needs unlocking. When I don't play it solo it is literally as a party game with friends/colleagues. Since skill levels vary very strongly, I always set it as chaotic and equalizing as possible. Keeping all items and all stage hazards and of course playing time not stock. With time everyone is playing the whole time and having fun. With stock matches some players will be out and bored until the next round starts. What also helps is playing 8-player smash no matter the actual number of human players and fill up with CPU players of varying skill. This makes it even more chaotic and gives weaker players chances to score lucky shots. Also, every game is chaotic to casuals. Even 1v1 stock matches without items feel chaotic to casual players.

ynthrepic said:

So many people keep telling me, but I'm not convinced so many people are still playing them in this way. I wish statistics existed for play styles over time. Hours played with items on vs items off n-months after release. I mean Nintendo are a business, so they are probably not wrong about the bias toward party-play, but I do wonder if they are paying close attention to how people are playing the game many months after its release. It clearly doesn't matter to their bottom line since initial sales are the primary bankroll.

I really enjoy busting out Mario Kart with friends every now and again, but none of those same friends care for SSB in the slightest. It's just too complex for fun casual play in their opinion. Mario Kart has a good balance between easy to pick up, possible to win as a beginner thanks to items, but still possible to get good enough at to have a bit of competitive fervor among friends. (I am aware you can become very good at Mario Kart, but that applies even to Warioware if you play it with enough dedication)

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How competitive are you in your 'party games' of smash. Do you always own all your casual friends? If yes, maybe that is the reason why your friends don't see smash as a party game and think it is too complex. They need to get a few points and wins to stay invested in the game. Mario Kart has so much rubber banding that even weak players get their feeling of success.

And party games are played sporadically when there are 'parties'. So time spent playing in 'party mode' versus time spent in 'serious mode' six months after release is not a goo metric to measure where the game should go. What mode people are buying the game for is more useful. And as many suggest, party mode probably wind this mode by a long shot. And you hardcore players still have your options to just ban what you don't like from your matches.

We play 8 player Amiibo rumble. My Kirby won 2 tournaments for that.

As in, not seriously, over at a friends place? It's the only way I ever enjoy Smash (as the solo content sucks).