The value of internet discussion with the uneducated & disingenuous

Elegant Weapon · Jul 9, 2018

My girlfriend recently said "would you go up to every person you see and ask their opinion on everything?"

Obviously, I don't but I post online and it's literally the same thing.

I've posted on online message boards since at least 13/14 years old and watched Anti-intellectualism become a legit cult where facts don't matter.

One of the most frustrating things to me is having a conversation with someone who already has an opinion but needs to be educated on the basics of the discussion while refuting their argument. You basically have to become a substitute teacher to a bunch of self stylized Zack Morris' who forget the lessons at the end of each episode just to turn back into an asshole that needs instruction on basic human decency again in the next show.

I appreciate the many posters here aren't shitbags in hiding. I've disagreed with posters here but can tell they're decent people and respect them but these assholes who post the same hair brained opinion in spite of several different people making well thought out and defended arguments is getting old.

I think I'm getting too old for this shit. Is there any value in earnest discussion with disingenuous trolls?

julia crawford · Jul 9, 2018

Nope.

shacklecat · Jul 9, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
I think I'm getting too old for this shit. Is there any value in earnest discussion with disingenuous trolls?

Yes. It is important to refute lies in a public forum. You may not change the troll's mind but you can't let his toxic views corrupt other readers. Ignoring the trolls is how they got this much power in the first place.

Westbahnhof · Jul 9, 2018

Rekubot said:
Yes. It is important to refute lies in a public forum. You may not change the troll's mind but you can't let his toxic views corrupt other readers. Ignoring the trolls is how they got this much power in the first place.

That's where I'm at. Of course it's not good to get too invested, but I feel it's not useless to present a reader with some actual arguments.

Takyon · Jul 9, 2018

The only thing that matters is the value you derive from it.

SugarNoodles · Jul 9, 2018

Rekubot said:
Yes. It is important to refute lies in a public forum. You may not change the troll's mind but you can't let his toxic views corrupt other readers. Ignoring the trolls is how they got this much power in the first place.

This. People often say "well you're not changing anyone's mind when you act like that" and they're missing the point. Sometimes the discussion needs to happen for the people in the bleachers.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 9, 2018

Rekubot said:
Yes. It is important to refute lies in a public forum. You may not change the troll's mind but you can't let his toxic views corrupt other readers. Ignoring the trolls is how they got this much power in the first place.

That's what I've always believed; at least someone else will see it explained and the big fat lie won't sit there unchallenged.

I'm just sick of the big fat lie being given credence by trolls even after it's been refuted and the other trolls come with the "everyone who believes in this big fat lie isn't a troll!" bullshit

Vincent Grayson · Jul 9, 2018

I mean, I just like talking. Talking with people means I have more data about what people think and how they interact, even the assholes. And knowing more about people helps me interact better with people and better work towards my goals, so it's all valuable in my mind.

That said, once someone has personally proved that they can't be reasoned with or have an honest, informed discussion, I'll usually bow out.

Digital Dinosaur · Jul 9, 2018

Early on there was this pervasive idea the internet was an intellectual thunderdome where everyone was expected to argue with the entire planet and prove they were right. Ignoring stupid shit and trolls was a sign of "weakness" and fear. In hindsight it seems this idea was popularized by trolls and fedora-type persons, who would always "win" arguments with fallacies and absolutely never admitting they were wrong about anything.

These days I agree the goal should be to refute lies but never forget it's about the audience, not trying to win and change the mind of a random dishonest person. Don't forget that trolls and company want to use you to get at your audience and spread their lies, so there is a challenge in controlling the conversation.

shacklecat · Jul 9, 2018

Kai Dracon said:
Don't forget that trolls and company want to use you to get at your audience and spread their lies, so there is a challenge in controlling the conversation.

Agreed. If refuting a lie brings greater exposure to said lie then it's better to just ignore it. There's a risk that the lie may be seen as having equal credence to the truth if it picks up enough momentum.

teruterubozu · Jul 9, 2018

I don't even enjoy internet discussions with the "educated". People are faux experts online. 5 Minutes on Wikipedia and suddenly that person is an "expert" on whatever the topic is. Hell I'm guilty of doing that too but these days I mostly pass on discussions which rely on one's Google-fu.

Treasure Silvergun · Jul 9, 2018

Thinking that the Internet and real life* are the same thing is a big hole in your argument, OP.
Think about how easily you say "obviously, I don't" about asking people in real life. Makes one think you really haven't experienced both things to the same degree. People act differently on the Internet.

teruterubozu said:
I don't even enjoy internet discussions with the "educated". People are faux experts online. 5 Minutes on Wikipedia and suddenly that person is an "expert" on whatever the topic is. Hell I'm guilty of doing that too but these days I mostly pass on discussions which rely on one's Google-fu.

Yeah. I mean, there was once a thread where every "educated" poster just obsessively linked to a certain WP article. Do you really think that one WP article can pass as the one, undisputable truth that will make you win the argument and expose all lies on the matter? A single Wikipedia or WP article has the same value as a game's Metacritic, ie, not much in the grand scheme of things. And remember, a lot of actually knoledgeable people don't waste their time arguing on the internet (or in real life, for that matter) precisely because they don't want to deal with people who think they can silence any objection with an Internet link that they keep ready for when the occasion arises.

*it's funny how we speak of the Internet as if it's not real life

Sho_Nuff82 · Jul 9, 2018

I saw someone yesterday post a meme about Hillary Clinton getting fired from the Watergate investigation for being a terrible liar and destroying evidence. Someone else posted a snopes article showing this was false. The meme poster then argued that even if the meme was false the spirit of the message was true, and then that snopes was a tool of the liberal media.

All in all, the snopes poster had no visible effect on the troll but pretty much shut down his meme from going viral in the thread. Every little bit helps.

hobblygobbly · Jul 9, 2018

Depends on the type of person on the other end, Internet or not. The disingenuous types are beyond any sort of discussion, especially those that have developed illusions from it. A stupid person is a disingenuous one with ulterior motives. An uneducated person isn't stupid, stupidity arises when one attempts to protect their preconceived notions for whatever reasons they have which can be influenced by their immediate society/people they surround themselves with, falling prey to propaganda, etc.

It is quite easy IRL at least from my own experiences to tell these two types of people apart. The one you can have a discussion with, the type of person that will think about it more on their own is an uneducated person, not a stupid person, a stupid person averts education.

Kill3r7 · Jul 9, 2018

Nope. Outside of keeping your mind sharp and passing the day. The thing worth noting is that the internet places everyone in equal footing, more or less. The average Joe or Jane's argument holds as much water as one from an individual with an Ivy League degree, subject matter expertise, and successful career. Something that rarely happens in real life.

LightEntite · Jul 9, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
I appreciate the many posters here aren't shitbags in hiding. I've disagreed with posters here but can tell they're decent people and respect them but these assholes who post the same hair brained opinion in spite of several different people making well thought out and defended arguments is getting old.

you know, the longer you communicate with people over the internet, the more you'll come to realize

it's less about what you argue for, and more about how you choose to argue

This forum is known for taking a more empathetic stance on issues, but in many cases i can identify the exact same thinking pattern that infects the minds of anti-intellectuals and "disingenuous trolls".

In that sense, it's harder to condemn people for thinking that way because I appreciate how easy it is for people to grow up thinking that way, and putting yourself in their shoes, it's easy to see why it's impossible to argue with them

because while you're desperately trying to show them how dense they are, they're literally seeing you the exact same way. In that sense, headway is impossible.

As others have said though, your goal is never to actually change the mind of the other.

The amount of people who are actually able to step outside their own bubble and truly view an argument from outside their own perspective is exceedingly low.

Your only people actually being swayed in online arguments are those who are listening on the side ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Beartruck · Jul 9, 2018

Problem is people don't use the Internet to learn. As bill burr put it, everyone goes to ImRight.com to just reinforce what they already believe.

Mauricio_Magus · Jul 9, 2018

When someone outright says something that's a lie, is just misinformed, or does some logical fallacy, I usually say something.

I wish it didn't happen all the fucking time, and usually it's for others to see, the audience, not the person in particular which will not answer or double down usually.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 9, 2018

LightEntite said:
you know, the longer you communicate with people over the internet, the more you'll come to realize

it's less about what you argue for, and more about how you choose to argue

This forum is known for taking a more empathetic stance on issues, but in many cases i can identify the exact same thinking pattern that infects the minds of anti-intellectuals and "disingenuous trolls".

In that sense, it's harder to condemn people for thinking that way because I appreciate how easy it is for people to grow up thinking that way, and putting yourself in their shoes, it's easy to see why it's impossible to argue with them

because while you're desperately trying to show them how dense they are, they're literally seeing you the exact same way. In that sense, headway is impossible.

As others have said though, your goal is never to actually change the mind of the other.

The amount of people who are actually able to step outside their own bubble and truly view an argument from outside their own perspective is exceedingly low.

Your only people actually being swayed in online arguments are those who are listening on the side ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For the most part. I already well understand why people believe the things they do. That's hardly a mystery to me.

Knowing that their experience is limited and everything has always been catered to their perspective doesn't help discussion, for me at least.

gfxtwin · Jul 9, 2018

There's a lot of perceived or actual disingenuousness and manipulation in discourse these days, and it does get difficult to constantly have to parse out misinformation vs truth. All anyone can do is try to react to bullshit with reason and empathy, call it out and refute with facts or, if that fails, take some amusement in trolling the trolls at their own game to lean how to deal with them better and maintain sanity.

Deleted member 2317 · Jul 9, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
I've posted on online message boards since at least 13/14 years old and watched Anti-intellectualism become a legit cult where facts don't matter.

I think I'm getting too old for this shit. Is there any value in earnest discussion with disingenuous trolls?

There is no worth whatsoever, in fact, it's stress you definitely do not need. Let it go and realize the (almost?) majority of humans across time and space have been ignorant.

Deleted member 14002 · Jul 9, 2018

John Kowalski said:
Nope.

This.

If it's disengenuous there's no point.

If it's undereducated there's a shot but stars kind of need to align.

Advance.Wars.Sgt. · Jul 9, 2018

Outside of mockery and treating their line of thought like a joke, no.

What people like that want more than anything else is to be taken seriously. So deny them that and most of the time they'll shut up/retreat.

JetmanJay · Jul 9, 2018

Yeah, I fight the good fight on Facebook. It's frustrating. Absolutely depends on my mood and if I'm drinking or not. Sometimes I just can't let these idiots say whatever the fuck they want without giving some push back and making them feel stupid. Unlike some people here, I think there's some merit in pushing back. It's not good for the long term mental health or politics of this country without confronting these idiotic views and pushing them back in the mud.

I think my most recent blow-up was someone dumb enough to post a video of Obama saying he was Kenyan. Was the most fake shit I've ever seen.

DigitalOp · Jul 9, 2018

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I have no problems being corrected and learning from other people.

But for the most part, people only want to be right or to have their prenotions confirmed.

They don't want to be corrected, they don't want to learn.

SofNascimento · Jul 9, 2018

Sometimes I feel everybody in the internet is just the same. They just throw their hate at different things that they feel is justified or use different ways to feel they know better or belong. But then, I have experienced only a small fraction of it and have a very limited pespective, so I have no reason to believe I'm right.

Random Painted Highway · Jul 9, 2018

If you have an expertise in anything, internet conversations can be tiring. And a young persons game. I certainly don't have the time anymore for long drawn out complicated conversations, particularly in the current hot take, us v them climate.

Mass Effect · Jul 9, 2018

Advance.Wars.Sgt. said:
Outside of mockery and treating their line of thought like a joke, no.

I honestly feel like this is far more effective than reasoned discourse. Convince everyone else the troll/ignorant person is an idiot and not worth listening to, mock them, and don't take them seriously, and it seriously bothers them.

Plus, on the internet at least, memes and jokes speak much louder than words.

Deleted member 176 · Jul 9, 2018

Use your ignore button.

Advance.Wars.Sgt. · Jul 9, 2018

Mass Effect said:
I honestly feel like this is far more effective than reasoned discourse. Convince everyone else the troll/ignorant person is an idiot and not worth listening to, mock them, and don't take them seriously, and it seriously bothers them.

Plus, on the internet at least, memes and jokes speak much louder than words.

I wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

Long paragraphs of reasoned logic don't, and in my experience, have never worked. Mostly Because A) they're not going to read it anyway or B) they'll pinpoint a single talking point in your diatribe and continue expanding their fallacious arguments (usually in the form of bad analogies, "stats from my ass", and questionable anecdotes).

Kyuuji · Jul 9, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
My girlfriend recently said "would you go up to every person you see and ask their opinion on everything?"

Obviously, I don't but I post online and it's literally the same thing.

Except it's not. You can pose a question online and it requires no further effort other than to scan a page if, as and when you wish to.

MDS · Jul 9, 2018

Some of the people you're arguing with undoubtedly have similar feelings toward you and would be equally right.

sph3re · Jul 9, 2018

I like to think I'm pretty open minded. As much as you don't like teaching people how not to say dumb stuff or be dickheads, I appreciate when you or others teach me things that I didn't otherwise know.

For what that's worth. Which could very well be nothing.

Elegant Weapon · Jul 9, 2018

afternoon delight said:
There is no worth whatsoever, in fact, it's stress you definitely do not need. Let it go and realize the (almost?) majority of humans across time and space have been ignorant.

That's true most people have been ignorant but growing up in the Information Age I've always felt the need to challenge some glaringly ignorant comments online hopefully people wouldn't fall for it but it just feels like a bad habit

Brock Reiher said:
Use your ignore button.

Most boards/comments sections I use don't have an ignore feature but my ignore list here is healthy. The ignore feature is clutch.

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