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Black Panther and the Importance of Inclusion
- Thread starter Thatonedice1
- Start date
I've already countered the point as well as many others, if you feel that you can counter our points why haven't you?
You're literally picking the dumbest small fight with me like I haven't earnestly contributed to this thread.
No one is off the deep end because you want to but can't defend the racial boogie man narrative that the blacks liking Killmonger is bad
Marvel makes shitty villains. Yet here we are still discussing Kilmonger. I have yet to see another villain spark up as much discussion as he has.
I see a lot of people thinking Kilmonger's plan was stupid. The funny thing is Vulture was selling high tech weapons for money to support his family. Yet I see his plan get more praise than Kilmonger's eventhough he's creating a future where his family can live in an unsafe world.
I see a lot of people thinking Kilmonger's plan was stupid. The funny thing is Vulture was selling high tech weapons for money to support his family. Yet I see his plan get more praise than Kilmonger's eventhough he's creating a future where his family can live in an unsafe world.
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The only one that ever touched on real racial injustices during real right wing racist movements. I was honetly shocked Marvel Ok'd it tbh.
But what is the actual issue here, that Killmonger literally wanted guns aimed at little kids, or that some white people who are critical of his goals (that the movie is explicitly against) are putting themselves in the shoes of the oppressor? Because what I assume is that he'd want to prevent their heirs (who are likely already in positions of power) from replacing them, not that he wants to actually kill defenseless children, because we know he's obviously smart enough to know that little children are not part of the immediate threat to oppressed people.
The politicians are the parents, the military are the children.
It's the kids who are at the frontlines fighting for their parents to live comfortably. Not the other way around. Hence why he says their children, because that is who they will be fighting on the frontline.
Look at how proud Americans are of their military men. Willingly giving their lives to oppress other countries so their Parents can be proud of them. This is why white people are so fucking blind. They are constantly fed this propoganda that they are doing good for the world, that their men are giving their lives for their country, when in actual fact they are only doing it to feed the greed of their politicians.
On top of that praising their military for oppressing other countries. But because they are giving their lives to do it we shouldn't disrespect them by kneeling for the National Anthem.
I don't understand how it's so hard to distinguish this as just a metaphor.
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Without naming names, is it that hard to think that the child of an oppressor is also an adult. Just thinking about one person people hate and his 40 year old children.
Your imagination is the only issue here, not the line.
Well, yeah, that's not where my mind went at all. I saw the line in the context of Killmonger being super ruthless to advance his goals. he's smart enough to know kids don't pose a threat, but when I hear the line, I go back to his previous actions, which is lots of murder. When he says "They'll arm oppressed people all over the world... so they can finally rise up and kill those in power. And their children." I'm taking it at face value. It's not a huge leap to think "I'm gonna arm people so they can kill their oppressors and their children" means he wants the people he arms to kill oppressors and their children. Like I said before, my theory is the screenwriters added that line so the audience stays on T'Challa's side. If they make Killmonger too sympathetic it would undercut the main characters personal growth. They wanted the movie to end, and the audience come away from it thinking "Black Panther made the right choice," not "Man, BP didn't go far enough." They wanted a sympathetic villain, but simple and easily digestible themes and character development.
Vulture's a douche. "I'm just trying to provide for my family." Bitch look how big your house is.
Edit: Rereading some of the posts, Killmonger referring to heirs makes sense, too.
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#ShuriShouldHaveHerOwnMovie
Yea it's without a doubt a culturally important movie. Not the best movie, but undoubtedly one with very important cultural impact.
Still shaking my head at people supporting how Killmonger did his things though.
Yea it's without a doubt a culturally important movie. Not the best movie, but undoubtedly one with very important cultural impact.
Still shaking my head at people supporting how Killmonger did his things though.
The entire infrastructure of the U.S. is pretty much built on it.
Yeah this "blacks liking Kilmonger are the real racists" thing is the new "Wakanda is an alt right ethnostate"
Enough trolls are just going to keep repeating it to get idiots to believe it regardless of all well reasoned arguments that refute the nonsense
Too bad Black Panther did so well, assholes. See you for the sequels
Enough trolls are just going to keep repeating it to get idiots to believe it regardless of all well reasoned arguments that refute the nonsense
Too bad Black Panther did so well, assholes. See you for the sequels
One person maybe kinda said that if you squint yet you're acting like thats some sort of prevailing sentiment that needs rebuffing.
If you don't want to be
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Great words OP. Not only was Black Panther great for inclusion but it was also a legitimately great movie (The best superhero movie I watched since The Dark Knight)
When I read BP threads on era there's always love for the actors and how the characters and story tie into the MCU, but one thing there's not much hype over for some reason is how awesome Coogler is for making the film possible. BP was one of the few MCU movies I remember seeing where you felt the thematic impact of the creative/auteur voice of the director and writers in a way that reminded me of superhero movies directed by Raimi, Burton and Nolan. Coogler lacks some of the visual spectacle those directors brought to the table, but then again dude is only like 30 and this was his first blockbuster action film.
This ties into a bigger point of inclusivity via how pointless it is to have expectations of what an artist can/should do and how impossible it can be to judge whether or not someone you have in mind is a right fit to make a certain movie. The director of smaller independent dramas made a classic MCU movie. Peele from Key and Peele and Jim from The Office made some of the most original horror films in the past several years. Until he started his hustle, everyone only knew James Franco as that dude from Spider-Man and Pineapple Express. The character actor from Derrick Comedy and Community wrote and directed Atlanta and one of the more powerful music videos in recent memory. For all we know Anna Kendrick could direct the most ambitious Cyberpunk epic since Blade Runner. Imagine how many unique films are squashed because of audience and studio expectations of what talent is and who has/should have it.
Pidgeonholing, judgement and close minded expectations from both audiences and those in the entertainment industry are problems that limit creative potential, and something that is still very common, sadly.
This ties into a bigger point of inclusivity via how pointless it is to have expectations of what an artist can/should do and how impossible it can be to judge whether or not someone you have in mind is a right fit to make a certain movie. The director of smaller independent dramas made a classic MCU movie. Peele from Key and Peele and Jim from The Office made some of the most original horror films in the past several years. Until he started his hustle, everyone only knew James Franco as that dude from Spider-Man and Pineapple Express. The character actor from Derrick Comedy and Community wrote and directed Atlanta and one of the more powerful music videos in recent memory. For all we know Anna Kendrick could direct the most ambitious Cyberpunk epic since Blade Runner. Imagine how many unique films are squashed because of audience and studio expectations of what talent is and who has/should have it.
Pidgeonholing, judgement and close minded expectations from both audiences and those in the entertainment industry are problems that limit creative potential, and something that is still very common, sadly.
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User banned (1 day) for repeated hostility towards other members in the thread, previous warnings for similar behaviour
How exactly have you corrected me, Uardo?
You keep talking about discussion by dancing around it. Actually make a point or shut the fuck up.
There is now literally two pages correcting the sentiment that you said wasn't a shitty opinion rooted in a bad place but you avoided explaining how isn't it rooted in racism, why? Because it's been well explained by 5+ people and you don't have the wits to rub together to form a decent argument, so you troll like an edgy child
You keep ignoring all these points of discussion to play shitbag backseat moderator with no opinion beside that other people are allowed to repeatedly post ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions and maintain them in the face well reasoned arguments.
Seriously, engage in the discussion or shut the fuck up already
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"Killmonger is a genicidal maniac" ain't exactly a hot fucking take - he's the bad guy remember? - yet nobody in this thread is suggesting "black people are the real racists for liking him" so there's your correction.
I've applauded the OP for his story, I've expressed my admiration for the movie, and I've clearly stated my understanding of just how important the movie is.
I have engaged.
What I don't think anyone should have to engage with, is this garbage notion that any criticism of the movie is perpetuated by racists.
If you disagree with whiskas_fanatic I'm not trying to change your mind. But spare the melodrama.
Engage me without strawman arguments. Where did I say any criticism of the film makes one a racist? Quote me or shut the fuck up
Where did anyone disagree that Kilmonger is homocidial? It's in his fucking name, genius!
You can critique film without being racist and sexist, duh. So do that. Don't make "why is her hair purple?" level observations and pretend your "criticism" isn't rooted in dumbass sexism
You have two pages explaining why focusing on Kilmonger being liked as a bad thing is racist boogie man rooted in fear or racial revenge, but you need to construct a false argument to defend the original narrative. Just discuss in good faith and we won't have a problem
You keep posting on how you perceive my posts instead of actually engaging in the multiple posts that destroy the argument you keep trying to sanatize.
You can't even answer basic questions like "what have you corrected me on?"
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This:
Isn't really happening. You're the one creating the boogie man and I don't understand why?
If you're not arguing about the nature of Killmonger's character, then the notion that a bunch of people supporting, if not outright lionising him isn't that outrageous. I'm not even agreeing with the dude. I'm just saying that these accusations of racism and outright telling the dude to fuck off for simply holding that opinion are out of line.
There was really no need for that sort of hostility to be brought into a thread full of people talking about how awesome they think the movie is.
Look, we can just drop this here because you actually said some really poignant things about the movie and I thought those posts were a wonderful example of the positivity this movie has inspired. My responses were primarily with regards to another couple of posters who jumped in, didn't even talk about the movie but just started shouting fuck off at people.
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Eduardo Corrochio Then why would all of these posters make these posts? Why haven't you engaged them instead of gaslighting me?
Laughing Banana posted "shaking me head about people supporting how Killmonger did things" AFTER all these well thought out posts that you keep ignoring
What's the value in overly criticizing this particular antagonist, really? You want us to know that Killmonger was the bad guy Eduardo Corrochio? Tell us in the context of all these posts why the fuck you think you need to tell us that and why he's different from any other complex villain that people like
Laughing Banana posted "shaking me head about people supporting how Killmonger did things" AFTER all these well thought out posts that you keep ignoring
What's the value in overly criticizing this particular antagonist, really? You want us to know that Killmonger was the bad guy Eduardo Corrochio? Tell us in the context of all these posts why the fuck you think you need to tell us that and why he's different from any other complex villain that people like
Christ almighty mate, I directly replied to a post you made and you replied back so we continued to engage. That's what a discussion board is for. I don't even know what gaslighting even means. It isn't that serious.
You've been copping out of actual discussion for pages now while trying to paint me as "off the deep end"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
I've asked you to explain yourself for pages but you only come back to tell me to calm down, it's annoying and unnecessary especially when I've brought more to the discussion than you or the asshole with the blatantly racist opinion that you took up for
And again when asked to defend your point, you leave because you never intended to have a genuine discussion where you have to support your statements
Bye troll
Woah, I made that comment without even aware of the bickering you two have done in this thread. Is it really that much of a controversial thing to say? To think how Killmongers did stuff in the movie was really really wrong?
He's a classic Villains with Noble Intentions Doing Things the Wrong Way trope.
I hope the MCU keeps diversifying in stories and characters they create. The concept of "Earths Mightiest Heroes" is much more impactful when earth is properly represented. Enough white Americans lmao.
Also, I've read this thread over and I have no idea what you guys are actually arguing about.
Also, I've read this thread over and I have no idea what you guys are actually arguing about.
It was a non-sequitur comment that you admit you made without reading the thread. Lol at "bickering"... *jerk off motion*
No one really supports Kilmonger to the point where this concern you all have about his popularity. Please read through the quoted posts to understand why your comment wasn't controversial just stupid, all things considered
10+ different posters make detailed well explained and reasoned posts speaking to a specific point and you came in with a one sentence non sequitur shitpost repling to nobody in particular
It's not that your post was controversial, just dumb and out of the blue
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Goddamn, I never thought me making a comment about how Killmonger is a bad dude ends up with me being called dumb today, I didn't even think it's that much of a weird position to take.
You seem to invent intentions for me that I don't even have when I made that post. Lighten up a bit.
Or you can smarten up and read the thread before you post next time?
Really, saying the bad guy was a bad guy isn't some particularly enlightening comment that creates a lot of discussion and in context of the direction of the discussion in this thread, you should be able to admit it was a dumb comment
First BP is awesome. I agree with the OP that it was about time there was more inclusion.
But as a woman nerd, I want to add that all the women in BP were something special. It was amazing to see country were women were truely equal.
This will probably be dismissed cause "women are in alot of things". But not like this.
These are women are peers, not love interest like Pepper and Jane. Not torture assasins who had no choice in their life like Widow. Gamora and Wasp are pretty good, but they still are items of plot motivation for Starlord and Antman. Agent Carter had to fight against sexism of her time.
Okoye, Nakia, and Shuri just are. They are not choosen ones, they are heroes on their own merits. Consern aimed towards the is love for family and friends- not because they are incapable of protecting themselves.
Wonder women was great, but I can't be a demigod.
But as a woman nerd, I want to add that all the women in BP were something special. It was amazing to see country were women were truely equal.
This will probably be dismissed cause "women are in alot of things". But not like this.
These are women are peers, not love interest like Pepper and Jane. Not torture assasins who had no choice in their life like Widow. Gamora and Wasp are pretty good, but they still are items of plot motivation for Starlord and Antman. Agent Carter had to fight against sexism of her time.
Okoye, Nakia, and Shuri just are. They are not choosen ones, they are heroes on their own merits. Consern aimed towards the is love for family and friends- not because they are incapable of protecting themselves.
Wonder women was great, but I can't be a demigod.
Agreed, one could argue it's the most feminist superhero film so far.
User banned (1 day) for personal attacks, avatar shaming, ignoring moderation warning
The only reason I'm not saying "white" is because there were definitely some colonizers who are not white (but not black either). Still, he opposed them to black people, so I'm still think you know pefrectly fine who is he talking about. Also, neither NK nor black dictators weren't mentioned or showed in movie, and only example of opressed people that was illustrated takes place in America. I'm not sure what I can add here that won't be concidered as further thread derailment. But please answer honestly, do you think children of opressors deserve to die?
Why you feel the need to bring negative white characters, when we are talking about negative black character, especially if you don't think skin color is an issue here? Walter White whiteness has nothing to do with him being an asshole. But character we are talking about want his followers to kill children, and there is lot of people irl who are thinking he was right. That exact part stresses me out.
That's your fantasy. I find Killmonger as character dangerous because alot of fans seem to completely agree with his plans and actions no matter what. Also if you sympathyze some Killmongers ideas, while downplaying or ignoring the others - that's radicalisation to me, and that's why I think he is dangerous. You somehow seem to think I can't criticize him, but that's not true. Everyone can criticize anyone else, Killmonger is same comic character as Green Goblin, but unlike Green Goblin's his ideas are really dangegous.
Elegant Weapon you have this murderous maniac piece of shit on avatar and trying to insult me troughout whole thread. Here is reality check for you and other "white fragility" and "this movie is not for you" (bullshit, movies are for everyone) assholes: you are judging me not because criticism, but because of my skin color. That's racism right here, think about it.
Great OP, too bad the general quibbling has taken root.
I'll say this about Black Panther-- it was so good, so epic, and so full of cool stuff-- that if it weren't already part of the MCU, you could build a whole franchise universe off of it.
Coogler really brought a whole world into being.
I'll say this about Black Panther-- it was so good, so epic, and so full of cool stuff-- that if it weren't already part of the MCU, you could build a whole franchise universe off of it.
Coogler really brought a whole world into being.
So even though there were colonizers that weren't white, you think he is only out to kill white people? Do you think it was all white people or some white people?
In the quote you posted to show that Erik was some scary racist negro, did he not mention nations all over the earth. Are black nations and North Korean not part of the "earth?"
I really don't think you actually saw this movie.
A lot of great villains are great because there is a kernel of "they not right but they are not wrong either" in them. It's what the villain does with that makes him a villain. If you are scared one movie is going to cause marginalized people to raise up and start slaughtering children, that speaks more to your state of mind then the movie itself. Hollywood been making black pain movies for decades and Nate Turner The Generation hasn't appeared yet.
Hey now! First, I just wanna say it's cool to see more BLERDS speaking out in general about the impact this film has had on them. Everything in this film speaks to me in some way, and it took this movie for me to really see why its importance is still being felt, even months after release. Second, no worries for the spelling errors. I'm the king of fast typing and making up new words and refusing to right click to fix said spelling errors. Thanks for sharing your story. One question I have for you is after seeing the movie, have you started feeling differently about the MCU in general, and the way that they handle PoC?
Is it your turn to dance around now? Don't ignore my question - is it ok to kill children of opressors?
And I'll just repeat, he's talking about black people at begin of speech, opposes oppressors and colonizers to them in the middle, and wants to kill their children in the end. If he didn't specifically mentioned black people, maybe you could spin it in that unharmful way that you want him to be seen.
I'm going to mention this thread again, where multiple people explicitely telling that yes, they will follow Killmonger's plan if it happens in reality. How that speaks for my mind?
Enzom21 again, please notice how everyone in that thread understands perfectly that it were black people and people of color who was meant to recieve weapons. Not a word about North Korea surprisingly (not really)!
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That you are worried about people sparking a revolution if a dude leaped from the pages of fiction and started handing out laser spears and forcefield cloaks? People also said they will join up with Magneto and Dr.Doom. But I am not worried about a holocaust survivor chucking meteors at children or a Romany Gypsy taking over a eastern European country so he can have diplomatic immunity to fuck with his ex college roommate
I am not dancing around anything, I didn't answer it because it's a stupid fucking question. He is a villain and he said and did some villainous shit, when did I say it was okay to kill children.
I responded to you making the ridiculous claim that he was killing based on skin color. I think you know that but because your argument was shit, you're shifting to this nonsense that I somehow said it was okay to kill children.
Where exactly did I state that I want Erik to be seen in an "unharmful" way? My entire argument has been that what he said wasn't racist like you claimed.
I am not going to let you try and shift away from your initial idiotic argument. He said every nation on the earth, so is he only going to give weapons to black people and do these weapons on kill white people?
Read your own post with a quote from the movie.
Every movie isn't for everyone; that's actually the subject of this thread and conversation. Most big American films are exclusionary and tell stories from very limited perspectives. A big reason why Black Panther is so notable and memorable is because it's one of the few films of its kind outside of that limited perspective.
Being outside that limited perspective, it's obviously not wrote primarily for the kind of person who doesn't care to understand outside of that perspective: you.
No, the movie isn't for you, based on your comments not because of your race. I never said "Black Panther isn't for white people" or anything like that, I said it wasn't for you because your concerns that black people like a distinctively sympathetic antagonist is racist as fuck