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If you were an employer, would you hire a Trump supporter?
- Thread starter PersonAndStuff
- Start date
We know they started ramping up the separation of families in April and May. The vast majority of them still haven't been reunited yet and the government has made zero effort to ensure they could be reunited later. They still don't have concrete plans to do so despite court orders. So yes, this has been going on for months and there isn't an end in sight for many of these families.
http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents
It took a long time to respond on mobile. Also I derailed this pretty hard so NOW I'm going to bounce.
I should of made my own thread if I actually cared enough to post this long shit here.
As usual, I see shit like this.
Group A: enabling fascist policies, removing women's rights, demonizing immigrants, destroying our planet, screwing lower- and middle-class via tax breaks and benefit cuts
Group B: Mad at group A for doing this
"But Group B is the problem."
In any case, "politics" aside, you can't be an idiot and do the work required at my company, so, ya know.
I am not trying to excuse my mom's voting habits, only to explain why labeling all Trump supporters as racists is not accurate.
My mom spends hours each week donating time at a shelter for battered and homeless women. She has never audibly expressed one racist sentiment in her life that I know of not even one of ignorance...but she has been lied to by an echo chamber that has the attention of 10s of millions of Americans. It is an echo chamber not unlike ERA or the old place. The only difference is that we are actually in the right and are better informed.
I use to buy the Fox News garbage hook line and sinker and it wasn't until about 2009 that I started to realize that I was being lied to every day. PoliGAF did that for me. Without it even with the benefit of the internet there is no telling if I would still be brainwashed. How do you help people in those situations see the truth? What can be done? I am not talking about virulent racists, bigots and sexists, mind you Those people are lost forever in all but the most extreme cases I am just talking about the conservatives who have been lied to for decades into believing that the Republican party actually represents them and their faith when it really only represents worship of the Almighty dollar...
Genocide isn't the only thing the nazi's did, I don't get why people have to take it to the absolute extreme or have in fall perfectly in line with what happened in the 1930's-40's. It's 2018, children are being out in concentration camps, and it's being allowed. That we haven't gotten to the point of gas chambers shouldn't undermine the comparison. I don't understand why kids being put in camps, or black people being murdered by government forces while the behavior is ordered and condoned by a man who has expressed interest in serving past his 8 years and has committed treason to gain an illegitimate position isn't enough, I really don't. I know it can go in circles because that's part of the work to try to wake people up to how bad shit really is, but I've lost so much faith that you can get anyone with privilege to see it because by the time it's their turn to suffer they'll be the only ones left in line anyways, they'll turn around to say "shit guys we have to stop this!" and there will be nobody behind them to tell.
Your mom sounds like she is doing great things but please remember through inaction and through putting that garbage into her brain she is perpetuating and enabling racism, she's tolerating it by watching it. I understand she does not come out and say it with words but it's still doing harm. When we say all Trump supporters are racist we don't just mean people that are wearing hoods or people using slurs outright, it's also people that enable the people who do that sort of thing, and it can also be a very short walk from one to the other.
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As already noted political views aren't protected universally.
Also, I don't really know when bigotry started being considered a policy.
Most hiring processes look for a fit within the organisation, which outside of protected classes they are free to apply a degree of subjective selection.
I hear what you're saying. I've been advised to stop here though. Though honestly I didn't have much else to say anyways.
No, fuck your predictable "straight white male" response.
It always inevitably comes down to this, like clockwork. You don't wish to address the argument so you attack the identity and privilege in the attempt to delegitimize. You took the very last line of that paragraph and went on a rambling rant, not even addressing the rest of it. I may have said this to you in the other thread (or perhaps it was someone else), but it begs reiterating: you are not the only one who's faced injustice in this world, or that your injustices are worse than others, stop acting like it, and stop presuming I'm complacent and content with the injustices being done to others. It is very obvious you are desperately looking to make enemies to vent and take your racial frustrations out on, looking for that big, bad white evil man to do so, and in the process, you push people away who wish to be there with you.
Since this bears on this conversation and since you've made this personal, I'll tell you my story of "privilege". A (literal) softball sized tumor was discovered behind my left chest wall a few months before my twenty first birthday. I had to sacrifice all of my twenties all the way to my very late thirties to fight it as it continually pulled me back in for treatment. This was in addition to enduring the nightmare that is Bipolar II. During that time I watched all my peers, all those blessed with their health, moving on with their lives, exploring themselves, falling in love, being in college, partying, getting degrees, furthering their careers, buying beautiful homes, pursuing hobbies and traveling, reaping the rewards from something priceless they were given for free, didn't even appreciate, and yet allowed them to build the foundation of their lives upon. Then they predicated their judgement of me being "lazy" and a "bum" because I wasn't successful by society's standards.
Do you believe severe chronic illness doesn't come with stigma and discrimination? With judgement? With prejudice? It does, and in terms of injustices in life, I believe I'd take being a minority with both my physical and mental health intact in America in a heartbeat over being a straight, white male without them, but that's just me. At least you have people acknowledging and fighting alongside you, and the potential for progress and betterment. I'm simply fighting for something that I had, and that fight has only given me a shred of it back while robbing me of everything else and making it incredibly difficult to even have a modicum of my own life. I'm not even independent.
So don't imply to me I don't have to deal with shit because I'm white, or that I've lived "privileged". People with their health benefit from privilege more than they can possibly understand.
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Yes dude, I'm disabled. There's no cure for what I've got, I'll have it and it will get worse until the day I die. I likely won't be walking in 10 years. What you went through sounds like hell and I'm glad you're still fighting, that is badass, I know it can't be easy but that should be celebrated. That isn't what privilege is though, it doesn't mean you didn't work hard for what you have, it means on average others have to work much harder for what you have or even less. I'm disabled but as a straight white guy I realize I'm still in an advantageous position which makes it all the more important I have to use that to speak out on injustice when I can. It also isn't a contest. If you're going to see this country for what it is (and what it can be were we to fix our shit) you need to understand how privilege effects everyone, how the institutions in this country are designed to only favor *some* but not all, how the whole system is corrupt down to the bones.
Can you truly not recognize that while your situation fucking *SUCKS*, that you got through it in one piece because of privilege? Because of the resources available to you, the family you were born with, etc, you did better than countless thousands of people have in similar situations. That's the thing that seems to fall on deaf ears in these arguments. Talking about privilege isn't meant to give you the impression that your life is perfect and you should be thankful. It's meant to help you recognize that no matter what shit has happened to you, you're doing better than a lot of people facing the same situation because of things you were born into, or other circumstances. A poor white person born to poor white parents isn't "privileged" in any meaningful sense of the word, but they *do* have white privilege, in the sense that their life might suck, but it would be a lot fucking worse if they were poor and not white.
So just curious. For the people who consider all Trump supporters as being racist. Do you consider people who support American governments and their racist foreign policy as racist or is the racism only a factor if it is against American people?
For example a lot of folks are angry about Trump policy of separating children from their parents. But the American government has always supported, funded and aided the policies of apartheid and oppression by the Israeli state where Palestinian children are arrested in the middle of the night and put into solitary confinement and children are bombed.
So does the racism against the brown skinned people of the middle east matter on here? Hillary Clinton's neocon hawkish foreign policy has resulted in hundreds of thousands of destroyed lives in the middle east. American arm sales to Saudi Arabia has resulted in one of the worst human made disasters of our time in Yemen.
What about those brown skinned children that were killed by Obama's drone strikes? Would an Obama supporter be racist for voting for him despite his racist drone policy? I am sure some American here will tell me that it's collateral damage - the easy racism that justifies the death of children.
Mohammed Toiman al-Jahmi was 13 years old when he was burned alive by hellfire missiles that incinerate their victims. You can read about him here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...med-tuaiman-death-cia-strike?CMP=share_btn_tw
That's why this strict black and white view of people into racists and non racists is puzzling. A white man in some small town is not personally affected by racism and misogyny. He only cares about putting food on the table and having a good life. Maybe he got fooled by Trump into thinking that Trump will get him that. So he votes for him. Does that make him a racist? Or just a guy with white privilege who is only concerned about his future?
A typical democrat is not bothered by how Hillary Clinton's foreign policy has destroyed Libya. They just want a liberal president, who will elect liberal supreme court judges, give free health care etc. Does that make someone who votes for Hillary a racist? Or just someone with American privilege who is only concerned about his future?
If a Palestinian American called one a racist for supporting a Hillary Clinton who dehumanizes Palestinians by referring to them as 'terrorists' would one accept that label?
At the end of the day, human beings are selfish. They only care about themselves, their families, their children. They want only what's best for them. There could be Trump supporters who knew he's a racist shitbag, but also genuinely thought he would enact policies that would improve their lives. There are Obama/Clinton supporters who don't give a shit about Arabs killed and their lives destroyed by the foreign policy of these guys.
Human beings are complex and I think a more nuanced view of these matters would help.
Personally I thought Bernie Sanders was the best liberal candidate out there. An American Jeremy Corbyn. Non-interventionist, the first political candidate to view the Palestinians as human beings, using money for social programs instead of increasing the defense budget. Muslim-Americans liked him and voted for him in the primaries. I think he would have won over Trump supporters with his policies. I think he could have beat Trump.
For example a lot of folks are angry about Trump policy of separating children from their parents. But the American government has always supported, funded and aided the policies of apartheid and oppression by the Israeli state where Palestinian children are arrested in the middle of the night and put into solitary confinement and children are bombed.
So does the racism against the brown skinned people of the middle east matter on here? Hillary Clinton's neocon hawkish foreign policy has resulted in hundreds of thousands of destroyed lives in the middle east. American arm sales to Saudi Arabia has resulted in one of the worst human made disasters of our time in Yemen.
What about those brown skinned children that were killed by Obama's drone strikes? Would an Obama supporter be racist for voting for him despite his racist drone policy? I am sure some American here will tell me that it's collateral damage - the easy racism that justifies the death of children.
Mohammed Toiman al-Jahmi was 13 years old when he was burned alive by hellfire missiles that incinerate their victims. You can read about him here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...med-tuaiman-death-cia-strike?CMP=share_btn_tw
That's why this strict black and white view of people into racists and non racists is puzzling. A white man in some small town is not personally affected by racism and misogyny. He only cares about putting food on the table and having a good life. Maybe he got fooled by Trump into thinking that Trump will get him that. So he votes for him. Does that make him a racist? Or just a guy with white privilege who is only concerned about his future?
A typical democrat is not bothered by how Hillary Clinton's foreign policy has destroyed Libya. They just want a liberal president, who will elect liberal supreme court judges, give free health care etc. Does that make someone who votes for Hillary a racist? Or just someone with American privilege who is only concerned about his future?
If a Palestinian American called one a racist for supporting a Hillary Clinton who dehumanizes Palestinians by referring to them as 'terrorists' would one accept that label?
At the end of the day, human beings are selfish. They only care about themselves, their families, their children. They want only what's best for them. There could be Trump supporters who knew he's a racist shitbag, but also genuinely thought he would enact policies that would improve their lives. There are Obama/Clinton supporters who don't give a shit about Arabs killed and their lives destroyed by the foreign policy of these guys.
Human beings are complex and I think a more nuanced view of these matters would help.
Personally I thought Bernie Sanders was the best liberal candidate out there. An American Jeremy Corbyn. Non-interventionist, the first political candidate to view the Palestinians as human beings, using money for social programs instead of increasing the defense budget. Muslim-Americans liked him and voted for him in the primaries. I think he would have won over Trump supporters with his policies. I think he could have beat Trump.
The thing is though, that's an echo chamber your mom CHOSE. She chooses, as an adult with free will, to intentionally poison herself with racism and bigotry, and makes political choices that have far sweeping effects for minorities. People are allowed to make a judgment call about the character of your mom based on those choices.
You're not wrong about a lot of what you're saying, but the reality is that Sanders wasn't a real option in this last election, because here, 2 parties are basically the only real choices. So yes, at least for me, there's a lot I don't like about the democratic party choices in most elections either...but I will not vote in a way that doesn't minimize the damage, and that's voting for the democrat over the republican. In an ideal scenario, I'd be voting for someone who didn't champion any shitty policies, here or abroad.
Take it to the extreme? Man...to people outside this forum and Twitter, concentration camps and Nazi's = people getting killed in gas Chambers and mass graves. So when you call people Nazi's no one takes it serious, they just take offense at the ludicrousnessof it.
If you went to your CEO and said you're not hiring this person because they are a Nazi and the only proof you have is they voted Trump, chances are very damn high your CEO is not going to give a fuck.
Interesting. I believe in Canada it is? I just remember seeing "political views" in the statement about non discriminative hiring that companies put on job listings when I was looking for jobs last year and I guess I just naturally assumed that's how it is in the US too.
For what it's worth, I agree with you weekev.
Swindled :,)
More like "I don't care about facts and I don't wanna be called a racist let me live in my own bubble".
When it comes to actual outcomes there is no difference, so why even take offense to the label. Fact remains she is supporting racists and chooses ignore ALL THE OPEN EASILY ACCESSIBLE EVIDENCE.
Now I understand she is your mother and of course despite it all you gotta stand by family(generally). But you should also understand that for the rest of us this isn't really a defense that counts for anything. In any case good luck if you're actually trying to reach her.
No, I would not hire such a person. I think a tolerant society must endeavour to not tolerate intolerance. Trump has given every indication, both in word and deed, that he is acting from a centre of intolerance and so it is hard to fathom how anyone supporting him is not doing so from a centre of intolerance as well. I think that it is impossible, at this point, for support of Trump to merely be a political position.
Yes. What they vote for is none of my damn business at the time of interview.
If it came out in the wash that they were all "Shoot them [whatever slur]s into space and over the wall" in office or on anything that came back to me?
Sure, here's your p45, fuck off and drown in a ditch for all I care.
If it came out in the wash that they were all "Shoot them [whatever slur]s into space and over the wall" in office or on anything that came back to me?
Sure, here's your p45, fuck off and drown in a ditch for all I care.
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Number 2 is what concerns me. If you put someone in power who's down with Trump even after he's pulled all of his shit, then you're hiring someone who completely lacks empathy and you don't need that in the workplace. And it doesn't matter if it's a high up position like CEO or if it's just a management position at a gas station. People like that will fuck their employees and fuck your company.
While we don't and wouldn't screen for this in the hiring process, the Trump supporters in our organization are as a group worse employees than the control group. This could be a coincidence due to sample size (we have around 40 employees), my guess is that the same traits that lead to supporting Trump (lack of curiosity and acceptance of new or different ideas, among others) tend to make for worse employees.
As long as you don't flaunt it, yes. I have a few people on the payroll who I personally hired that I later found out voted for him, and I'm not going to fire them unless they give me a reason to.
I got through my illnesses also because of my exceptional hard work and perseverance that lasted for years.
It's not that I don't recognize it, I'm simply not going to apologize for being white or feel guilty for it. Because while nobody will ever demand it explicitly, it's certainly there in the subtext. I'm also not going to pre-empt my posts or qualify them with such a disclaimer. I abhor racism in every possible way, and I don't wish to have privilege over anyone else and desire equality for all. But I'm sure as hell not going to put myself down or constantly feel ashamed or guilt ridden by circumstances outside of my control.
Is it possible for me to say that I'm proud of who I am (as people of other races are capable of doing) without being seen as a racist or racist enabler by proxy? Without the assumption that in doing so I'm at the same time disregarding horrific atrocities done in my name so many years ago, while in the meantime dismissing privileges I'm taking advantage of simply by virtue of my existence? I apparently can't even state that I believe the U.S. is fundamentally a good country with a strong foundation despite serious flaws without effectively being told that that sentiment is bullshit and to fuck off with it, all under the presumption that I'm white. I don't find that this tactic, which I've seen on these boards quite a few times not only directed at me but at others, makes for a pleasant tone or welcoming environment. Frankly, I'm getting a bit tired of it.
I will pro-actively fight to try to move forward and bring about the furtherment of equal rights and privileges to all, right alongside those not privy to it. But one thing I will not do is demean and constantly beat myself and those good people of my race up in some misguided attempt at retroactive conciliation. What happened in the past is not my fault, and I believe what people truly want is not equal privilege, but flat out revenge.
That's not what he said. You're being completely disingenuous. A tolerant society should not tolerate bigotry and racism. Full stop.
No I'm really not being disingenuous, I'm making a very obvious and clear point.
The straight logical outcome of not employing Trump voters is you only appoint Democrats, or abstainers. Those in this thread who genuinely wouldn't employ a Trump supporter face the obvious subsequent question, "what are the implications".
LOL - no. You made up a quote in reply to Palantiri. Now you are implying that Trump voters (and it's supporters, not voters, they aren't interchangeable) and Conservatives are one and the same. Your point is not clear and it is not obvious.
If you are a Trump supporter at this point in time you are *at the very best* a supporter of bigotry and racism.
If you won't appoint anyone who voted for Trump to a job, what's the pool of people left for you to appoint from? Democrats and abstainers, and the forgetful.
If they could do their job right, and not be a problem with the rest of my workers, then sure. I need to show them that liberals are not some terrible monsters, just as their favorite news propaganda would prefer to tell them.
He literally called out this exact bullshit Strawman in the post you quoted.
You aren't fooling anyone. Knock it off.
Treating non white people like humans is probably pretty relevant to most jobs.
If you feel the need to share your political beliefs to me during an interview or before you are hired, I don't want you working for me. Especially if you support Trump.
The irony of you complaining about someone strawmanning just two posts above this one is...impressive.
Like seriously, props. Now quick, conjure up some roundabout way that support of Trump necessarily means that that person as an individual treats nonwhite people as subhuman! Godspeed!
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As long as the person is qualified, sure. A lot of right-wingers are good at doublethink, so it's entirely possible that they can justify Trump to themselves while still appearing normal in a lot of day to day situations and being skilled in their field.
And I'd be ready to drop them at the first sign of bigotry, of course.
And I'd be ready to drop them at the first sign of bigotry, of course.
I'd say voting for him as President is a clear indicator of support.
And it's been pretty clearly stated dozens of times in this thread that plenty of people who voted for Trump for whatever stupid fucking reason horribly regret it and do not support him today, after seeing the truly heinous shit he's done.
So knock off your purposefully disingenuous bullshit.
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling throughout the thread, accumulated infractions for similar behavior.
Did you vote for him? I can't see any other reason for your curious semantic excitability.
Anyway! It really is a semantic discussion now with you, so I'll say good day to you.
Easy.
Their fucking reason for supporting trump doesnt fucking matter.
Pro life.
Doesn't fucking matter.
Coal jobs.
Doesn't fucking matter.
Single issue voter of whatever.
Doesn't fucking matter.
In order to continue to support Trump for whatever bullshit reason they are claiming doesn't have anything to do with being a racist to this day, they have to at the very least, be okay with ripping apart families, terrifying children, putting those children in cages, weaponizing children's terror and fear, to send a political message. Referring to too brown foreigners as vermin, and infestations, and all the other heinous disgusting deplorable shit Trump and his cronies do, just to get that one thing they want that 'has nothing to do with racism'.
Because it's clearly worth more to them than the lives of THOSE people.
This is not a hard concept. It is not subtle.
I want you to understand this, because it's important.
Recognizing white privilege doesn't mean apologizing. It doesn't mean being ashamed of who you are. It doesn't mean you haven't overcome significant ad meaningful obstacles through grit and intelligence. It simply means that your skin color has *not been an obstacle* in your struggles, whereas for others of color, it is.
That's it.
It's important to recognize that, because if you don't, then you don't recognize that people of color face daily struggles because of systemic racism, and that means you don't view that as a problem, and will take no steps to correct an injustice.
That's all.
It's not a personal thing. It's a system thing.
1) You didn't address my question at all, which has to do with the day-to-day interactions of how these people treat nonwhite people, particularly in a workplace environment. Your claim was that their individual treatment was subhuman, which I (rightfully) called you on for being silly and unjustified, not to mention wholly irrelevant to the topic of who I would want performing practical functions at a job. You've failed to justify yourself, because you can't.
2) Not that it really matters, but you should really clarify what you mean by "Trump supporter." To me, one could be a Trump supporter and disagree with the policies/comments you mentioned. Even if that's not the case and "Trump supporter" is synonymous with "someone who agrees with every single thing Trump has said and done," there are still plenty of (entirely publicized!) justifications for the separation policy and, say, travel ban that have nothing to do with race. Now, as a convicted leftist I happen to think most of those justifications are weak or made in bad faith. But there are obviously *some* Trump supporters who buy the explanations they are given. You can call them stupid but the fact is political awareness is more often than not entirely irrelevant to the job at hand. Most surgeons are Republicans! Most Republicans support Trump! Surgeons are very smart at what they do!
Like Jesus it's like you think people's politics permeate every single interaction of their life. Do you ever get off this website and realize how little your average person thinks about or even understands politics?
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