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Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
By not doing anything against hate speech, Reddit's management makes itself complicit.

Note that the suspension for posting a private conversation would have happened in other forums as well, but it's good that it was posted. Sometimes you have to stand up for what's right and live with the consequences. A two week temp ban from an internet forum is nothing.
 

GoreMagala

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
334
Showing that someone sympathizes with white supremacists is not "to make someone look bad."

Context matters and you're ignoring it.

I feel like that's the fallacy of association. Just because they give a platform for everyone to speak, including white supremacists, does not mean that they agree with them or their values. It's just a byproduct of the actual values that they do have, in this place giving everyone the right to speak. As such, by giving everyone the right to speak, that just naturally means you'll get a lot of good but subsequently a lot of bad. I would argue that's just natural, and isn't particularly something to avoid. Once they start banning such people then they start going against the values they agree with.

When it comes to the concept of hate speech, while I disagree with the general term and the semantics of it, free speech does have its legal limits. In terms of offensive speech, free speech is unprotected, according to the Supreme Court, when it "tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" which is usually done by provoking a physical altercation. However, the word needs to be a "personally abusive [word] which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, is, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke a violent reaction." However, the most important part is that such speech must be "directed to the person of the hearer" and because of that is "thus likely to be seen as a 'direct personal insult.'"

Not to mention that of course, true threats of violence that are directed toward an individual or group of people with the intent to place the person or persons involved at risk of immediate bodily harm or death are normally not protected under the first amendment (you can't yell bomb in a plane, fire in a theater, or say anything that might cause someone to believe you're about to either physically hurt or kill them).

Reddit bans any speech that "glorifies, incites, or calls for violence or physical harm against an individual or group of people." This complies with the true threat of violence exception to the first amendment.

As such, if we were to go to the extreme and talk about a reddit page which encourages white supremacy and discusses steoreotypical stuff like how great they are and how awful other people are, such a page would technically not be against either Reddit's rules or against the free speech exceptions to the first amendment. As long as such a thread does not directly glorify (which I will admit is probably the one that flies under the radar most I would say, an example would be something like a photo of people burning and romanticizing it, but I'm pretty sure reddit in general has NSFW rules, I don't know if there's any white supremacy threads so I don't know how often such things happen there), incite (usually seen as starting or stirring up violence, which probably doesn't happen if everyone in that thread agrees with themselves), or call for violence (such as planning an attack or basically saying that they need to hurt people soon/in general), then it is safe under free speech. Also, in such a scenario you can't use the first example I gave either because people saying racist remarks among themselves that are not directed at you or are addressed to anyone in particular do not meet the criteria necessary to disqualify it as free speech (in this case the criteria would be the remarks being "addressed/directed to the ordinary citizen/person of the hearer"). So, even if you consider it personally abusive and a direct personal insult, it does not matter because it needs to be addressed or directed at you, and unless it is, it is still protected by the first amendment. Interestingly, in both cases (both the reddit rules and the criteria needed for the speech in question to be an exception to free speech), there did not appear to be anything wrong with the advocation and/or agreement with violence and as such the advocation/agreement of violence appears to be protected by both reddit and the first amendment. However, I will admit I need to do some more research there.

I did a quick search to see if I can even find any white supremacy reddit page (stuff like r/whitesupremacy which apparently used to be a thing but isn't there anymore). So I took a look at all the headlines on the first page of The_Donald and I couldn't find anything that meets any of the aforementioned criteria needed to be not protected by the first amendment. Granted I will be fair and say I didn't look too far into the comments, but even then I doubt such criteria would be met. Even if there are people who make mean or even racist remarks, the reality is that it is still protected by the first amendment and Reddit's rules. The racist remark would have to clearly and explicitly meet the aforementioned criteria and/or break one of the aspects of Reddit's rules for it to be an issue, which even then can be even more difficult to do once you consider that agreeing with violence/advocating violence could possibly be protected under both.

Note:

Let me be clear, I stated all of this not because I agree with, condone, support, or think anything positive about white supremacy or racism, but rather I make this argument for two reasons. The first, is because I genuinely find it fun to play the devil's advocate and argue an unpopular opinion, I do not like it when everyone just kind of has the same reaction or thoughts on something, if everyone is agreeing then nobody is thinking (as the famous quote says). I think it is interesting to have a genuine discussion and talk with other people and see as well as share a plethora of perspectives (and I would hope my history would generally show that as well as my willingness to admit when I am ignorant on an issue or at least feel like I am, wrong when it comes to my facts/argument, can't find any holes in an argument, and actually agree on points I agree with in order to find common ground, among other things). Lastly, I would say I somewhat agree with the values of Reddit (granted I don't know their history or if they've been hypocritical when it comes to maintaining said values so I plead some ignorance there and I apologize), I feel like everyone should be allowed to speak under any circumstance no matter what even if I completely disagree with or hate what they're saying and/or their ideologies. Of course that will lead to both great and awful people having voices, but I truly feel that is what's best and I have faith in people to truly make the right decisions (or at the very least make the decisions they think are right to them and pursue their happiness regardless of what I feel about them, as long as they don't infringe upon my rights such as physically hurting me or meeting the criteria for their speech to be unprotected, among other things). I apologize, normally I don't really get this defensive but given that I know the general demographic of Resetera, the topic of this thread, and I suppose just a vibe that I'm getting, I just want to make sure I lay myself and my intentions all out there because I frankly just want to have a reasonable discussion with differing opinions where we can discuss our ideas and focus on the merits of the aforementioned ideas and the arguments presented. Also, I apologize if I've made any grammatical errors, given the length of what I wrote and the fact it's 4:37 AM for me I might not reread this immediately. Thank you for reading all of this and for your time.

Edit: I don't know how I made all these lines through everything, can someone help? I'll try to fix this immediately.

Edit 2: Right now I'm just deleting and rewriting everything. I'm on mobile so it'll take some time.

Edit 3: I did it! Ended up figuring out, I'm glad I was able to fix it since that really made me start to panic since I didn't want to make things potentially even worse for myself. Apologies, everyone.
 
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Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,114
I feel like that's the fallacy of association. Just because they give a platform for everyone to speak, including white supremacists, does not mean that they agree with them or their values. It's just a byproduct of the actual values that they do have, in this place giving everyone the right to speak. As such, by giving everyone the right to speak, that just naturally means you'll get a lot of good but subsequently a lot of bad. I would argue that's just natural, and isn't particularly something to avoid. Once they start banning such people then they start going against the values they agree with.

When it comes to the concept of hate speech, while I disagree with the general term and the semantics of it, free speech does have its legal limits. In terms of offensive speech, free speech is unprotected, according to the Supreme Court, when it "tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" which is usually by provoking a physical altercation. However, the word used needs to be a "personally abusive [word] which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, is, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke a violent reaction." However, the most important part is that such speech must be "directed to the person of the hearer" and because of that is "thus likely to be seen as a 'direct personal insult.'"

Not to mention that of course, true threats of violence that are directed toward an individual or group of people with the intent to place the person or persons involved at risk of immediate bodily harm or death are normally not protected under the first amendment (you can't yell bomb in a plane, fire in a theater, or say anything that might cause someone to believe you're about to either physically hurt or kill them).

Reddit bans any speech that "glorifies, incites, or calls for violence or physical harm against an individual or group of people." This complies with the true threat of violence exception to the first amendment.

As such, if we were to go to the extreme and talk about a reddit page which encourages white supremacy and discusses steoreotypical stuff like how great they are and how awful other people are would not be against either Reddit's rules or against the free speech exceptions to the first amendment. As long as such a thread does not directly glorify (which I will admit is probably the one that flies under the radar most I would say, an example would be something like a photo of people burning and romanticizing it, but I'm pretty sure reddit in general has NSFW rules, I don't know if there's any white supremacy threads so I don't know how often such things happen there), incite (usually seen as starting or stirring up violence, which probably doesn't happen if everyone in that thread agrees with themselves), or call for violence (such as planning an attack or basically saying that they need to hurt people soon/in general), then it is safe under free speech. Also, in such a scenario you can't use the first example I gave either because people saying racist remarks among themselves that are not directed at you or are addressed to anyone in particular do not meet the criteria necessary to disqualify it as free speech (in this case the criteria would be the remarks being "addressed/directed to the ordinary citizen/person of the hearer"). So, even if you consider it personally abusive and a direct personal insult, it does not matter because it needs to be addressed or directed at you, and unless it is, it is still protected by the first amendment. Interestingly, in both cases (both the reddit rules and the criteria needed for the speech in question to be an exception to free speech), there did not appear to be anything wrong with the advocation and/or agreement with violence and as such the advocation/agreement of violence appears to be protected by both reddit and the first amendment. However, I will admit I need to do some more research there.

I did a quick search to see if I can even find any white supremacy reddit page (stuff like r/whitesupremacy which apparently used to be a thing but isn't there anymore). So I took a look at all the headlines on the first page of The_Donald and I couldn't find anything that meets any of the aforementioned criteria needed to be not protected by the first amendment. Granted I will be fair and say I didn't look too far into the comments, but even then I doubt such criteria would be met. Even if there are people who make mean or even racist remarks, the reality is that it is still protected by the first amendment and Reddit's rules. The racist remark would have to clearly and explicitly meet the aforementioned criteria and/or break one of the aspects of Reddit's rules for it to be an issue, which even then can be even more difficult to do once you consider that agreeing with violence/advocating violence could possibly be protected under both.

Note:

Let me be clear, I stated all of this not because I agree with, condone, support, or think anything positive about white supremacy or racism, but rather I make this argument for two reasons. The first, is because I genuinely find it fun to play the devil's advocate and argue an unpopular opinion, I do not like it when everyone just kind of have the same reaction or thoughts on something, if everyone is agreeing then nobody is thinking (as the famous quote says). I think it is interesting to have a genuine discussion and talk with other people and see as well as share a plethora of perspectives (and I would hope my history would generally show that as well as my willingness to admit when I am ignorant on an issue or at least feel like I am, wrong when it comes to my facts/argument, can't find any holes in an argument, and actually agree on points I agree with in order to find common ground, among other things). Lastly, I would say I somewhat agree with the values of Reddit (granted I don't know their history or if they've been hypocritical when it comes to maintaining said values so I plead some ignorance there and I apologize), I feel like everyone should be allowed to speak under any circumstance no matter what even if I completely disagree with or hate what they're saying and/or their ideologies. Of course that will lead to both great and awful people having voices, but I truly feel that is what's best and I have faith in people to truly make the right decisions (or at the very least make the decisions they think are right to them and pursue their happiness regardless of what I feel about them, as long as they don't infringe upon my rights such as physically hurting me or meeting the criteria for their speech to be unprotected, among other things). I apologize, normally I don't really get this defensive but given that I know the general demographic of Resetera, the topic of this thread, and I suppose just a vibe that I'm getting, I just want to make sure I lay myself and my intentions all out there because I frankly just want to have a reasonable discussion with differing opinions where we can discuss our ideas and focus on the merits of the aforementioned ideas and the arguments presented. Also, I apologize if I've made any grammatical errors, given the length of what I wrote and the fact it's 4:37 AM for me I might not reread this immediately. Thank you for reading all of this and for your time.
Edit: I don't know how I made all these lines through everything, can someone help? I'll try to fix this immediately.
You'll have to edit it in code mode, but remove the before however and then at the end.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
reddit CEO is a spineless cunt, news at 11
Social platforms aren't your allies. Twitter, FB, youtube, reddit. Same shit.
 

GoreMagala

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
334
You'll have to edit it in code mode, but remove the before however and then at the end.

Code mode? Can I do that from mobile? I don't know any of this stuff, I just do plain text and occasionally capital letters. What do you mean by the "before however and then" at the end?

Edit: I think I did it! I clicked a little document thing on the top right and saw the letter "S" in brackets where all of that started and "/S" in brackets where it ended so I just deleted that. But I don't understand what I wrote to get that to happen in the first place. Is there any series of marks that would cause the same effect?
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
We live in absurd times.

Calling racists racist is bigotry. Rejecting hate speech is thought policing.

What a big fat mess.
 

chaos_planes

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
350
Without fail, every single place or person that says they're about "open discussion", they'll let people post racist shit day in and out, but perceived personal slights on them? Here comes the hammer.
Yeah but thats not exclusive to race topics or Reddit, it's an internet admin/moderation thing. If you call out the mods in public here, you will be banned and possibly the thread locked. If you PM them and they don't like what you say, they'll put you on their list to ban for some BS down the line. These guys talk the talk but when it comes to racism it's always a one week ban. Not only that, but banning minority members because they don't like their tone when they are rightfully pissed at racist comments. This has been going on since the start here, and it's all because they are terrified of losing (racist) members.


Now, watch them vanish this post.
 
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GoreMagala

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
334
We live in absurd times.

Calling racists racist is bigotry. Rejecting hate speech is thought policing.

What a big fat mess.

I can see your perspective. However, given how I usually like to talk from the other side, I do want to perhaps comment on a few things.

I can someone see the perspective that calling racists racist is bigotry. Obviously, I think everyone agrees that they're awful people and if anything I do indeed agree with you that they should be rightfully condemn whenever they partake in horrid actions.

I think the origin of such an idea comes from the fact that perhaps not calling a racist a racist is bigotry, but actively and frequently seeking them out in order to harass them and belittle them and such. Once again, I'm with you on this one and I would say they generally deserve it, specifically when they do something that earns it (as opposed to I guess, existing, I don't know, something about doing that to people just because they believe something, no matter how bad, just doesn't fit right with me, however I need to be fair and state that I can see the argument that certain ideologies might be more prone to violence and general wrongdoing and I would say that's pretty reasonable, but I guess I don't like the idea of considering someone "guilty" before they do something wrong, although sure you can feel free to hate them to your heart's consent but at the same time I also somewhat disagree with the notion that racists can never be harassed just because they deserve it, there's a lot of nuance). Doing what I said is I guess, technically intolerant of racists. And again to be fair one can make the argument that they're intolerant too and as such don't deserve tolerance so it's somewhat like fighting fire with fire and I can see the merit of that. But I suppose in my mind and in my heart, if racists are intolerant of certain types of people, and we are intolerant of racists (which I guess kind of qualify as certain type of people), are we really any better? Obviously I'm not saying people that hate racists are as bad as racist and I wouldn't argue there's any equivolance there, but I'm speaking more so when it comes to our actions and from a moral perspective. At least to me, to preach and practice tolerance means you should always be tolerant, even to those you strongly disagree with or even hate, just to make it a consistent value. It just doesn't feel right to have tolerance be something than can be conveniently turned on or off, or for the people you agree with but not for those you don't. It's like that phrase, "I may disagree with what you have to say but I'll fight to the death for you right to say it." I think popular opinion and social media does enough to generally depict racism and such as extremely unfavorable characteristics, just let them do their own thing and leave them alone, unless they actually do or say something awful in which case social media and public opinion will refresh and remind themselves why they're so bad. That's the importance of letting people with bad opinions speak, to serve as an example for what not to do, as well as an opportunity of them to be counter-argued and perhaps change their mind, among other things.

I'll admit I'm biased with my upbringing, especially from a religious perspective, but it just doesn't feel right to fight hate with hate or to "stoop to their level," even if it's slight. I don't expect people to accept racism or even tolerate the actual idea or thought of it, but rather tolerate the fact that racists have as much right to speak their minds and believe what they believe as anyone else, without fear of being physically injured (although again I can understand scenarios in real life if things get heated and the racist begins to make threats or seems like he might physically hurt you then yeah that's enough of a sign to begin legally defending yourself, but if he's just yelling profanities, rudeness, and racist remarks, that's not enough for you to lay a finger on them, and on a related note I don't think yelling stuff back at them would to much good at that point hence not stooping to their level. Either ignore them, beat them with the power of arguments and words, or show their actions on social media to once again remind society why we strongly dislike such individuals).

There's a lot more I can say but it's mostly just finer details, I think I've got the main gist of it down. That's what I think people are meaning when they say that calling racists racist is bigotry. I hope I was able to perhaps offer a new perspective.
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
Reddit is the Boogie of websites. Pushing this "both sides" crap because they know how much income they get from Trump supporters and they're scared of upsetting them
 

SuperBanana

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,764
Hate speech is very easy to define. When a subreddit like The Donald is promoting the hanging of certain politicians or cheering a mass shooting that is the definition of hate.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Redditor: "Kill all the jews and N***ers"
Reddit: I dunno man, that's so difficult to define.

Fucking morons.
 

Deleted member 4208

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
409
From this sadly still relevant old Cracked post
K7LeLv0.png

Containment thread/subreddit theory is bullshit.
 
OP
OP
MrSaturn99

MrSaturn99

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,545
I live in a giant bucket.

Yup, banning hate subreddits has been proven to work.

You never know if a community has enough and enough people are upset it could happen. That is how we all ended up here. Going to the other place now is completely different and all that's left there are ultra right wing assholes.

True. I know I'd jump to a Twitter replacement in a heartbeat if it was actually moderated well.
 

MrRob

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,671
Reddit is the most inconsequential place on the internet to be banned from but they still refuse to do it.
 

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,223
I don't think he's spineless like some are saying, I think he 100% knows where his cash is coming from and wouldn't be at all surprised if he's getting some backend money from the GOP or even Russia.

Even FB and Twitter have taken steps
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,629
Been known Silicon Valley has an alt-right bent. But what do you expect from a generation raised on 4chan
 

joedick

Member
Mar 19, 2018
1,396
I'm saying they don't actually want to ban hate speech because they're in full support of people being able to say it, not because it's too hard. Just like Twitter's Jack, these guys are Libertarian techbros that are totally cool with whatever until it affects their bottom line.

They're cool with it because it will affect their bottom line. I don't think reddit is profitable so they are loathe to ban a chunk of their users.

Of course, the way to combat this is by impacting their bottom line. I don't use reddit, so I'm not sure how advertising works, but can't this end up like a youtube situation? Show companies that their ads are popping up on pages with hate speech, the companies will start defecting and reddit will change their rules pretty quick.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,628
I guess I can see why Reddit would want to be mostly hands off with the opinions represented on it. It's walking a tightrope between being accused of censoring discourse, and action tacitly endorsing the views you decide not to take action on. Is 'Build the Wall' hate speech? Arguably. I don't think you could define as clear rules around it as with violent rhetoric.

But then again they aren't taking action on slurs, and that seems easily definable, so maybe it does have more to do with a lack of desire than a lack of ability.
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
If Twitter actually followed their supposed hate speech rules, our president's account would be permabanned.
 
Mar 10, 2018
8,764
"We are not the thought police"

Translation:

"We do not give a damn about the wellbeing of our minority users"

Fuck outta here
 

FunkyMonkey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,419
the ceo of reddit is a piece of shit. by acting like hate speech is subjective to identify, instead of objective like it really is, it validates the hate speech as merely an equal but opposite opinion. reddit acts in cowardice because the ceo is a wannabe silicon valley tech bro who wants to hang with the big guys without getting his hands dirty. he is the spineless large scale version of boogie. every single day thedonald and the like are allowed to exist makes him and others complicit in any harm they do to others whether directly through violence or through harboring and festering hate.

mass organize white supremist rallies, propagate conspiracy theories that harm and kill people, talk about killing and hanging minorities? Fine and dandy. Make fun of fat people? WOAH HOLY SHIT, BAN THE SUBREDDIT POST HASTE AND PRETEND TO HAVE DECENCY AS A PERSON AND COMPANY. this is just a glimpse into why the reddit admins are a pathetic bunch of spineless and greedy pricks
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
Struggling to understand the thought process behind a lot of tech CEOs thinking they can't go after hate speech. Is it a resources issue? Is it some kind of weird moral dilemma? Is that they're worried they'll lose people?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Struggling to understand the thought process behind a lot of tech CEOs thinking they can't go after hate speech. Is it a resources issue? Is it some kind of weird moral dilemma? Is that they're worried they'll lose people?
Republicans buy sneakers too Nazi generate ad impressions too.

Some of the rationalize that crap by some libertarian ideas, but those type of ideas never seem to lead them toward decisions that are not beneficial to their financial interests.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Struggling to understand the thought process behind a lot of tech CEOs thinking they can't go after hate speech. Is it a resources issue? Is it some kind of weird moral dilemma? Is that they're worried they'll lose people?

They prefer money to morals, like most businessmen.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
"It's not the role of a private company to decide what people can and cannot say."

I hate this lame-ass excuse. The fact that you are private precisely means that you can make the rules be whatever you want.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,689
We are not the thought police.
But we don't like the thought you just shared regarding our stance on thought policing so you're banned for 7 days.


Yeah, you can find a lot of shameless asshole leadership just like that in online communities. Shows you where his priorities are at. More important to feel right and abuse power to punish resistance to personal determinations than it is to just enforce basic rules of civility.
 
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Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
Sites that rely on advertising rely on engagement, and sometimes that means negativity. Now, maybe moderation was better in the past when the site was smaller, where they could ban people permanently and not give out warnings or two week bans or cage things in "duration pending", but eventually the dollar comes around and moderation changes, for advertising or shareholders, depending on the site. Sites grow big, you need more voices, you need more engagement, you need more eyeballs for ads, and there you are, suddenly hosting a site that had dipped in quality and gone down a dark path to giving voice or tolerance to the intolerant. Where that slide goes, or they then decide to fight it, is the prerogative of the owners, since they are the ones who call the shots. Sometimes you just end up leaving those sites because of how terrible they've allowed themselves to become, and sometimes you needle them into hopefully getting back their backbone. But as a user, you can choose to leave and ignore, or continue to push and engage, and as a guest on those sites, that's all you can do. But no site is irreplaceable, including all the majors.

Hm.
 

Toxik

Banned
May 22, 2018
411
So reddit is basically 4chan.

I love the idea of openness but it usually goes bad lol.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
But is there any proof that going after hate speech would reduce traffic to the point that it hurts numbers? And wouldn't decreasing questionable content make those impressions more valuable? I work in online advertising and I fail to see where money comes into play.

This is some weird moral dilemma they're having or it's tied to not wanting to have to increase mod resources. And that's pretty sad.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Does that subreddit with photos of dead children and people dying still exists?

I remember that fucking ridiculous post saying that they removed the Jennifer Lawrence photos from subreddits because is the 'moral thing to do', while those subs went by untouched. Reddit's admins are a bunch of fucking cunts.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
The crux of the argument boils down to "hate speech is hard to define. There's a reason it's not really done".

Why don't we just... define hate speech??? Sure, you're never going to get 100%, but even getting 30% of it goes a long way to making life better for marginalized people.