Ori & the Will of the Wisps: Moon Studios aims to 'perfect Metroidvania genre' - Preview & Interview

Deleted member 29682 · Jul 10, 2018

I feel like Ori 1 and Hollow Knight had different approaches in terms of both gameplay and visuals. Ori was more platforming and mobility focused, whereas HK was more about combat and RPG-lite elements (like the charm system). Naturally whichever approach you prefer is going to be the better one in your eyes. But it also makes it hard to compare them one-to-one on these fronts.

I like them both for different reasons, and I'm looking forward to seeing how WotW builds on Blind Forest.

yap said:
Perfect it so well, we'll have to start calling the genre Oritroidvania.

MetOridvania

Exentryk · Jul 10, 2018

Ori and the Will of the Wisps |OT| Orivania

negative-space · Jul 10, 2018

Anyone got the link to that gaf thread where the Ori dev said Hollow Knight was a "bad metroidvania" ? I'm very, very surprised to hear that, because:

A) I assume the devs would have more tact than that
B) Hollow Knight is the greatest metroidvania game ever made

FWIW, I loved both games. Ori had better graphics, music, story and (maybe) platforming, but Hollow Knight was the full-package and for my money (something like £13 for around 50+ hours of content), the better purchase IMO.

Castlemadeofsand · Jul 10, 2018

The only thing I didn't like about the first was the combat, it wasn't bad and got better as the game went but not having physical attacks felt weird and detached to me

Stoze · Jul 10, 2018

negative-space said:
Anyone got the link to that gaf thread where the Ori dev said Hollow Knight was a "bad metroidvania" ? I'm very, very surprised to hear that, because:

A) I assume the devs would have more tact than that
B) Hollow Knight is the greatest metroidvania game ever made

FWIW, I loved both games. Ori had better graphics, music, story and (maybe) platforming, but Hollow Knight was the full-package and for my money (something like £13 for around 50+ hours of content), the better purchase IMO.

You should be surprised because it's not true. If I remember correctly Thomas just didn't like the pacing at the beginning of the game and voiced his reasons why, but he eventually ended up really liking it as he played more.

I don't know why people continue to pit these games against each other. Ori is a short briskly paced pure platformer and Hollow Knight is a long, epic action adventure. They're apart of different genres and have completely different design goals. It's just the structure/subgenre is similar and that's it.

Castlemadeofsand · Jul 10, 2018

FernandoRocker said:
Good luck with that now that Hollow Knight exists.

I have played both Hollow Knight and the first Ori, and HK is infinitely better in every single sense than Ori: gameplay, graphics, story, artstyle, soundtrack, sound effects, length, bosses, secrets, DLC, game design... everything.

Eh I've beaten ori and am about 10 or so hours into hollow knight and I think ori looked better overall. Soundtrack is a wash so far. Story id give to ori at this point easily but I haven't beaten hollow knight so that's premature

Theorry · Jul 10, 2018

Everything needs to be a "VS" nowadays. Let games do their thing and stop comparing always until one game "wins"

Deleted member 43077 · Jul 10, 2018

I believe.

3D49FC54557156984FEC98C3802C502C09142AFC

regardless if it comes to gamepass at launch or not its a day -1 for me.

FreddeGredde · Jul 10, 2018

My main problem with Ori is that the controls just aren't as tight as some other 2D platformers. (Celeste and VVVVVV are two examples I've recently played.)
One reason is that pixel graphics will always(?) be tighter and more... pixel-perfect. Another is that it's occasionally hard to see what's wall or background, and where dangerous walls/thorns begin and end. I also just found the controls a little flimsy compared to the all-time greats.

But again, I've yet to experience a high-res game with as tight controls as pixel-art games (except maybe NSMBU?) so maybe there's not much to do about it while keeping such beautiful visuals as in Ori.

Oh, I also dislike that the game so often takes away control from me and lets the character finish walking up to something, or making some movement. Too many and too long cut-scenes as well, but I accept that some people value story higher than I do and prefer it that way. I just think it could be done without removing player control.

All in all, if Ori 2 is gonna be considered "perfection", I think they need to work on these details too, if they haven't already! :) The other improvements already seem great.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 10, 2018

FreddeGredde said:
My main problem with Ori is that the controls just aren't as tight as some other 2D platformers. (Celeste and VVVVVV are two examples I've recently played.)
One reason is that pixel graphics will always(?) be tighter and more... pixel-perfect. Another is that it's occasionally hard to see what's wall or background, and where dangerous walls/thorns begin and end. I also just found the controls a little flimsy compared to the all-time greats.

But again, I've yet to experience a high-res game with as tight controls as pixel-art games (except maybe NSMBU?) so maybe there's not much to do about it while keeping such beautiful visuals as in Ori.

Oh, I also dislike that the game so often takes away control from me and lets the character finish walking up to something, or making some movement. Too many and too long cut-scenes as well, but I accept that some people value story higher than I do and prefer it that way. I just think it could be done without removing player control.

All in all, if Ori 2 is gonna be considered "perfection", I think they need to work on these details too, if they haven't already! :) The other improvements already seem great.

I cant agree, the controls felt super tight to me, especially the analogue inputs like bash. Celeste was tight too but it also gave me hand cramps on some of the levels. I don't think the prologue would have worked quite as well if you were somehow controlling the character the whole time, similarly to a few other scenes.

leng jai · Jul 10, 2018

watdaeff4 said:
Ori 1 is a great game, but Hollow Knight is better. Just be prepared for that potential let-down.

Is it easier and less obtuse? I love Hollow Knight but I spend at least 50% of the time lost and annoyed.

FreddeGredde · Jul 10, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel said:
I cant agree, the controls felt super tight to me, especially the analogue inputs like bash. Celeste was tight too but it also gave me hand cramps on some of the levels. I don't think the prologue would have worked quite as well if you were somehow controlling the character the whole time, similarly to a few other scenes.

Sure, the prologue is fine (though perhaps a bit too slow for me personally), but again, I get that it's a matter of taste. It's the other moments when you're in the middle of it that I didn't like.

And agree to disagree. For me, especially going from wall-jumping to jumping off never felt all that tight. But that's probably just matter of taste too.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 10, 2018

FreddeGredde said:
Sure, the prologue is fine (though perhaps a bit too slow for me personally), but again, I get that it's a matter of taste. It's the other moments when you're in the middle of it that I didn't like.

And agree to disagree. For me, especially going from wall-jumping to jumping off never felt all that tight. But that's probably just matter of taste too.

Maybe it helps that ive played many thousands of hours of competitive Smash, where the distinction between a 3d model and its interactions with geometry are a bit less defined and the controls are very much analogue and don't work on keyboard. I did beat Celeste and its optional content and I can see how its easier to know the exact pixels where you can interact with something, but I guess thats the tradeoff with more detail.

Coxy · Jul 10, 2018

In 30 plus years of gaming Ori is the only game that made me cry - it's now my third favourite game of all time.

Can't wait for the sequel.

thomasmahler · Jul 10, 2018

negative-space said:
Anyone got the link to that gaf thread where the Ori dev said Hollow Knight was a "bad metroidvania" ? I'm very, very surprised to hear that, because:

A) I assume the devs would have more tact than that
B) Hollow Knight is the greatest metroidvania game ever made

FWIW, I loved both games. Ori had better graphics, music, story and (maybe) platforming, but Hollow Knight was the full-package and for my money (something like £13 for around 50+ hours of content), the better purchase IMO.

This is so silly, I never actually said that. I popped into the Hollow Knight OT when it first launched and gave my early opinion after playing it a few hours and felt like the pacing was wacky - It takes a long time to get started and on your first playthrough through Hollow Knight, you're doing a lot of backtracking without having learned anything new or gotten a new item or anything. I felt like the whole 'You can't see yourself on the map at first' thing felt like needless padding. And I think many people agreed with me on those points. But again, that was MY experience and overall I still liked the game. Then I kept playing, got more stuff and eventually thought it's a great game. I think some people thought it was outrageous that one dev would pop into a thread and give his opinion and hey, maybe it is? I dunno, I'm just a gamer like other folks here and don't see why I can't give my 2 cents. I'm always interested in knowing what other devs think about the games we're making and having a little more discourse in that regard isn't a bad thing.

But when it comes to comparing the two, I don't think it makes a ton of sense. Ori is heavily platforming and level design focused, whereas HK kept things much closer to the Igavanias with a lesser focus on actual level design, but a stronger focus on enemy behaviors, combat and it had some Dark Souls influences like losing 'Souls' when you're dying, having obscure little NPCs in the world, lots of bosses, etc. sprinkled in.

I think people just like these little wars (Amiga VS ST, NES vs. MS, etc.), but I don't think we should take a part in that. I just think it's cool that there's more going on with Metroidvanias now than there has been for the last decade or so, since a lot of people were starved for this kinda genre and it's cool to see actual 'competition' happening again where the developers of various games can inspire each other to take things further.

And that's our goal for WotW - we listened to you folks and try to take things a lot further than we could've before. So chill out, let us do our thing and hopefully that'll result in us shipping a great game that you folks will love :)

Exentryk · Jul 10, 2018

leng jai said:
Is it easier and less obtuse? I love Hollow Knight but I spend at least 50% of the time lost and annoyed.

Ori is better than Hollow Knight. Perfect pacing, tight controls, great platforming, touching story, amazing music and a wonderful artstyle. Ori is more focussed on platforming, and the way you can use abilities to fly around the map really makes the game exhilarating to play. Even the combat is designed so it doesn't get in the way of the movement, and I honestly really liked the auto-aiming beams for attacks as it lets me zip through the areas while killing enemies.

There are some things in HK that I like more, but overall, Ori is better.

My pros and cons on HK (from the OT) are below, and if your thoughts are somewhat similar to below, then you might enjoy Ori more too.

Pros:

Gorgeous aesthetic! Seriously, this is one of the most beautiful games I've played.

Immersive world and atmosphere (which is result of everything coming together really well)

Great tight combat and platforming

Well designed and fair bosses

Amazing enemy variety

Cons:

Poor storytelling. The lore and the world around is interesting, but I don't like the way the story is told, i.e., needing to piece together from boss fights, items, etc.

Tedious game mechanics. No save anywhere feature, having to backtrack after every death, not being able to change charms (loadouts) anywhere, not having map charm as default passive, far away fast travel points, etc. I feel the game's strength is the exploration of beautiful areas, and adding these tedious elements only discourages exploration.

Poor Pacing. It took me about 6 hours to get the first two abilities, which is when the game really opens up. Devs need to ensure the game is designed such that a few important abilities are obtained as soon as possible, and that the time it takes for that is the same for every player.

Minor complaint, but the controls for charged attacks could be better. Perhaps something like hold L2 to charge and then tap the attack/dash/etc button to use respective charged attacks. I mention because it becomes tricky to hold the face attack button, while also trying to jump multiple times via another face button with the same thumb.

Barrel Cannon · Jul 10, 2018

Dev opinions are always welcome on reset. Honestly it's the competition that makes me want to play more and more games in this style. I skipped the first ori because I wasn't even sure what type of game it was. After playing through Celeste and replaying super metroid recently though I've become more hungry for similar vania and platformers again. Ori 1 and HK are both on my list of to-plays this year

thomasmahler · Jul 10, 2018

Btw, since I saw some people talking about Backtracking and the question came up how we're approaching that, here's my thoughts on it:

I think there's good and there's bad backtracking. I always kinda have a bit of the feeling that some developers design their games with backtracking in mind not necessarily because they truly get what makes backtracking fun, but simply to follow 'the formula'. The way we design with backtracking in mind is that we actually design levels that the player will backtrack through numerous times, meaning, for example, we might first design a level with the idea in mind that the player will have to traverse the level from left to right with a certain set of abilities. We try to make that fun and challenging. Then we know the player will probably come back to that area at some point, but now he'll probably have learned that other ability. So the way the platforms are laid out and the structure of the level has to also has to be designed to take that into account - So that traversing from left to right and from right to left will feel like playing 2 different levels, even though it's the same area you've passed through before. And then you also think about secret areas and making sure you have a good chunk of challenges in earlier parts of the game that you can only come back to with late stage abilities, etc. In terms of level design, we're spending a crazy amount of time on every single level to always account for these kinda things, to keep an area fun, even if you've already run through it before. You should always have new ways of interacting with the world, so that even areas you've already been to still feel fresh when you re-visit them. And yeah, we also feature quite a bit of hidden stuff in WotW that players won't find on their first run-through :)

I do see a lot of designers designing levels by just placing platforms with some obstacles or some enemies on them and calling it a day - It can be a bit frustrating if players then think that design-wise, it amounts to the same thing. It really doesn't though. A lot of our design-language is very Nintendo-inspired and I think in the end we're making the right moves. Again, I hope people don't see this as 'Thomas Mahler is shitting on other games', it's just that level design is insanely important to me and it's its own art to design good levels. There's a certain way we design at Moon that I'm super proud of and I hope people see that once they get to play WotW :)

Exentryk · Jul 10, 2018

Thanks for sharing these details with us, Thomas.

On a tangent, please have some dynamic HUD options so we can appreciate this beautiful game even more!

fiskyfisko · Jul 10, 2018

thomasmahler said:
This is so silly, I never actually said that. I popped into the Hollow Knight OT when it first launched and gave my early opinion after playing it a few hours and felt like the pacing was wacky - It takes a long time to get started and on your first playthrough through Hollow Knight, you're doing a lot of backtracking without having learned anything new or gotten a new item or anything. I felt like the whole 'You can't see yourself on the map at first' thing felt like needless padding. And I think many people agreed with me on those points. But again, that was MY experience and overall I still liked the game. Then I kept playing, got more stuff and eventually thought it's a great game. I think some people thought it was outrageous that one dev would pop into a thread and give his opinion and hey, maybe it is? I dunno, I'm just a gamer like other folks here and don't see why I can't give my 2 cents. I'm always interested in knowing what other devs think about the games we're making and having a little more discourse in that regard isn't a bad thing.

But when it comes to comparing the two, I don't think it makes a ton of sense. Ori is heavily platforming and level design focused, whereas HK kept things much closer to the Igavanias with a lesser focus on actual level design, but a stronger focus on enemy behaviors, combat and it had some Dark Souls influences like losing 'Souls' when you're dying, having obscure little NPCs in the world, lots of bosses, etc. sprinkled in.

I think people just like these little wars (Amiga VS ST, NES vs. MS, etc.), but I don't think we should take a part in that. I just think it's cool that there's more going on with Metroidvanias now than there has been for the last decade or so, since a lot of people were starved for this kinda genre and it's cool to see actual 'competition' happening again where the developers of various games can inspire each other to take things further.

And that's our goal for WotW - we listened to you folks and try to take things a lot further than we could've before. So chill out, let us do our thing and hopefully that'll result in us shipping a great game that you folks will love :)

Ahh sorry for bringing that up, the ''bad metroidvania'' was wrong, my bad, I remember it much more negativly. I think I was just dissapointed seeing Ori dev not seeing why is Hollow knight so good.

My dream metroidvania would be pretty much combination of Ori and HK.

thomasmahler · Jul 10, 2018

Exentryk said:
Thanks for sharing these details with us, Thomas.

On a tangent, please have some dynamic HUD options so we can appreciate this beautiful game even more!

Will do that :)

Stealth X Hawk · Jul 10, 2018

Does Microsoft own moon studios?

litebrite · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
Does Microsoft own moon studios?

No

m23 · Jul 10, 2018

Exentryk said:
Thanks for sharing these details with us, Thomas.

On a tangent, please have some dynamic HUD options so we can appreciate this beautiful game even more!

That's a great idea.

thomasmahler said:
Will do that :)

Yes!

Exentryk · Jul 10, 2018

thomasmahler said:
Will do that :)

Stealth X Hawk · Jul 10, 2018

litebrite said:
No

That's a shame, these are some talented people... Artistically unmatched

litebrite · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
That's a shame, these are some talented people... Artistically unmatched

Why's it a shame? Moon Studios may not want to be owned by a bigger corporation and prefer to maintain their independence.

Stealth X Hawk · Jul 10, 2018

litebrite said:
Why's it a shame? Moon Studios may not want to be owned by a bigger corporation and prefer to maintain their independence.

Because I really want Xbox to get some real quality talent and exclusives that show. Hellblade devs are a start, but having a 2d studio like moon would impact them as well. I like competition in gaming, and first party exclusives are what generate that competition

Fahzzy · Jul 10, 2018

Really hope they keep the talent behind the soundtrack. It was just so good.

BouncyFrag · Jul 10, 2018

Ori got me into playing 2d games again. Games like this are good for the soul.

litebrite · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
Because I really want Xbox to get some real quality talent and exclusives that show. Hellblade devs are a start, but having a 2d studio like moon would impact them as well. I like competition in gaming, and first party exclusives are what generate that competition

The more important part is Microsoft and Moon appear to have a great working relationship so far. You don't have to own the studio to create first party exclusives.

Bede-x · Jul 10, 2018

Theorry said:
Everything needs to be a "VS" nowadays. Let games do their thing and stop comparing always until one game "wins"

Yeah, it's really strange and even if one is clearly better than the other, is there really any Metroidvania fan that wouldn't consider buying both? Every high quality release in a genre we love should be treated as a celebration.

Panic Freak · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
That's a shame, these are some talented people... Artistically unmatched

But, perhaps their next game will be on multiple platforms and we still get to bask both Oris? Sounds good to me.

Theorry · Jul 10, 2018

Remember Ori isnt a "normal" studio most of the devs are scattered arround the world.

Deleted member 18951 · Jul 10, 2018

Great insight Thomas, thanks! :)

watdaeff4 · Jul 10, 2018

leng jai said:
Is it easier and less obtuse? I love Hollow Knight but I spend at least 50% of the time lost and annoyed.

The combat is easier but the platforming is more challenging IMO. It's definitely less obtuse than Hollow Knight

Stealth X Hawk · Jul 10, 2018

Panic Freak said:
But, perhaps their next game will be on multiple platforms and we still get to bask both Oris? Sounds good to me.

I agree... I just am a sucker for art and Ori is consistently one of the most beautiful games I've ever come across. These devs are amazing.. it's like.. how has noone tried to pick these guys up yet?

Speedlynx · Jul 10, 2018

negative-space said:
B) Hollow Knight is the greatest metroidvania game ever made

I loved Hollow Knight but it isn't better than Super Metroid or SotN.

People calling HK the 'perfect' metroidvania is so silly to me. Also people calling it blatantly better than Ori. I'm just like what?

The hyperbole in this thread

Vic_Viper · Jul 10, 2018

I was really looking forward to Ori and the Blind Forest before it came out. I just thought that it was way too hard and it really put me off from enjoying it. I dont know what the overall consensus was after it had been out for a bit, but it just really disappointed me at the time and I havent been back to it since.

Deleted member 25751 · Jul 10, 2018

Vic_Viper said:
I was really looking forward to Ori and the Blind Forest before it came out. I just thought that it was way too hard and it really put me off from enjoying it. I dont know what the overall consensus was after it had been out for a bit, but it just really disappointed me at the time and I havent been back to it since.

I felt the same way and waited until the definitive edition was released before purchasing. After reading about what was added to make the game more accessible I'm glad I did. I know lots of people love the thrill of the Ginso tree escape sequences and whatnot but I couldn't imagine having to complete them without the added checkpoints.

m23 · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
I agree... I just am a sucker for art and Ori is consistently one of the most beautiful games I've ever come across. These devs are amazing.. it's like.. how has noone tried to pick these guys up yet?

We don't know if nobody tried picking them up.

Liliana · Jul 10, 2018

thomasmahler said:
Will do that :)

Great! Can't wait for your game. For a game of this calibur, I hope there will be a physical release like the first one, too. :)

KLoWn · Jul 10, 2018

Speedlynx said:
I loved Hollow Knight but it isn't better than Super Metroid or SotN.

People calling HK the 'perfect' metroidvania is so silly to me. Also people calling it blatantly better than Ori. I'm just like what?

The hyperbole in this thread

And you get to decided that because...?

Hollow Knight easily beats both of those games imo, and large chunk of people agree.

jorgejjvr · Jul 10, 2018

Can I play the first on a laptop?

Any chances of this coming to switch?

thomasmahler · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
I agree... I just am a sucker for art and Ori is consistently one of the most beautiful games I've ever come across. These devs are amazing.. it's like.. how has noone tried to pick these guys up yet?

We've had offers before and could've said yes to large sacks of money, but we never yet thought it was the right thing to do. We have some crazy stuff in the works and I think the last thing we should do at Moon is to change how we work. We just wanna make some of the best games out there, we got some insanely talented people and I don't wanna disappoint anybody. I think we should just keep doing what we're doing and make you folks happy by making awesome games :)

Vic_Viper · Jul 10, 2018

omote75 said:
I felt the same way and waited until the definitive edition was released before purchasing. After reading about what was added to make the game more accessible I'm glad I did. I know lots of people love the thrill of the Ginso tree escape sequences and whatnot but I couldn't imagine having to complete them without the added checkpoints.

Thanks, Ill have to check that out then.

Bruceleeroy · Jul 10, 2018

Hollow Knight is my new favorite game below SOTN but everything I'm seeing and hearing about this games makes it seems like it will definitely be the new number 2 for me. It is also one of the most beautiful games I have ever seen.

thomasmahler said:
This is so silly, I never actually said that. I popped into the Hollow Knight OT when it first launched and gave my early opinion after playing it a few hours and felt like the pacing was wacky - It takes a long time to get started and on your first playthrough through Hollow Knight, you're doing a lot of backtracking without having learned anything new or gotten a new item or anything. I felt like the whole 'You can't see yourself on the map at first' thing felt like needless padding. And I think many people agreed with me on those points. But again, that was MY experience and overall I still liked the game.

Man I couldn't agree more with this. The beginning is such a slog and honestly almost put me off continuing but then you start figuring out the systems and getting some map awareness and it starts to click and then I really started to fall in love with it. One of my favorite things about SOTN is how so much of the lore is up to you to figure out based on your surroundings and the timing of events and Hollow Knight gives that same air of mystery. That said though the team at Moon is incredibly talented. Looks like the team is creating something quite special again and I can't wait to play it.

jb1234 · Jul 10, 2018

thomasmahler said:
We've had offers before and could've said yes to large sacks of money, but we never yet thought it was the right thing to do. We have some crazy stuff in the works and I think the last thing we should do at Moon is to change how we work. We just wanna make some of the best games out there, we got some insanely talented people and I don't wanna disappoint anybody. I think we should just keep doing what we're doing and make you folks happy by making awesome games :)

You guys are the best. Thanks for all your hard work!

Xtortion · Jul 10, 2018

Speedlynx said:
I loved Hollow Knight but it isn't better than Super Metroid or SotN.

People calling HK the 'perfect' metroidvania is so silly to me. Also people calling it blatantly better than Ori. I'm just like what?

The hyperbole in this thread

I kinda like Hollow Knight more as a 2D combat game than as a Metroidvania. HK's traversal powerups are fairly derivative in design and spaced pretty far apart in the first half of the game. A big part of what draws me to Metroidvanias is the abilities you get and the pacing at which you get them. Super Metroid is my GOAT because of how it's machine gunning awesome shit at your face for its runtime, however short it is. The progression is insanely fast paced and I love it for that - nothing ever wears out its welcome.

That said, Hollow Knight prolly has the best combat and atmosphere I've ever seen in that type of game. I agree with the position that the mapping could be more forgiving with auto mapping, a minimap on screen and always showing your position, because 2D games are inherently difficult to navigate. Dark Souls gets away with no map because it's a 3D game where you can pan the camera to orient yourself using landmarks, whereas each new area in Hollow Knight is like running around The Depths where you're kinda just fumbling through the dark.

Bruceleeroy · Jul 10, 2018

Stealth X Hawk said:
That's a shame, these are some talented people... Artistically unmatched

I wouldn't worry about it. They have a great working relationship with MS (See Sony with Insomniac). MS also knows how big they are for the platform and will continue to nurture that relationship the best they can. Some studios should just never be bought though.

Ori & the Will of the Wisps: Moon Studios aims to 'perfect Metroidvania genre' - Preview & Interview

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