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Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Character assassination. I'm sighing at your dramatics.

It was a pun. I just love that movie. If anything I'm trying to kill the drama.

I really don't take all that stuff so seriously, and despite SW being my favourite fictional franchise, I'm actually kind of surprised people get so worked up about it.



Honestly the expression "character assassination" didn't cross my mind when I wrote that. I mean, I'm genuinely displeased Boyega didn't get better material in TLJ because I think he's one of the best things in the new SW continuity, but it's not like it keeps me up at night.
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
Droid manufacturing you say. I wonder if that old Clone Wars droid General Kalani found his way to Bespin? Lando build the droid army with input from Kalani on how to make them better and is the key to victory. It is foreseen
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Side line /= character assassination

Also, he carried a third of the movie. You all just didn't like that third.
Yeah, I don't agree that it was a character assassination. But yeah, he was sidelined with a really uninteresting B-plot that has very little relevance or impact to the main plot what so ever. So I totally understand why Finn fans weren't happy with how he was handled in TLJ
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
To this day, I keep debating with myself if the wonderful job they did setting up Rey and making her a great SW character offsets the Assassination of FN2187 or Finn by the Coward Rian Johnson®.

So right, so wrong.

I'm not sure how they can salvage any dignity for his character now. They have flanderdized him to the a ridiculous point and also haven't really allowed his character to make any meaningful choices on their own. Any choice he makes is immediately undercut by Rose in TLJ and it's what really makes me not like her characters. Canto Bite would have been more interesting with Finn alone having to grow up and navigate grey waters himself in a dangerous environment. Would have made the DJ a bit more menacing because they would have been on the ship alone together.

Almost everything that happened on Canto bight could have been better written with Finn by himself and trying and failing by himself. We could have seen some other skills out of him because really, we have never seen more from finn outside of some running and him being decent with melee weapons.

I really think they don't have a clue of what to do with him and to me it would have been better to not even have given us this hope for a good main black character in Star Wars if they are going to fuck it up so much.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Side line /= character assassination

Also, he carried a third of the movie. You all just didn't like that third.

There's a difference.


I think Rose played a more important part in that role and actually carried it more. Me, I genuinely think Finn was one of the best characters in TFA and wanted more of him. I also think there's a part of the audience (ie the black audience) who is legitimated in being pissed at seeing a character who was supposed to be a big deal being used as bait and switch in one movie and sidelined in the next.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Yeah, I don't agree that it was a character assassination. But yeah, he was sidelined with a really uninteresting B-plot that has very little relevance or impact to the main plot what so ever. So I totally understand why Finn fans weren't happy with how he was handled in TLJ
Oh my fuck. Didn't have a positive impact, but the impact was there, again, you just didn't like it.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Oh my fuck. Didn't have a positive impact, but the impact was there, again, you just didn't like it.
A big part of the reason I don't like it is because of how little it impacts the ending of the movie. What about Finn's arc has any kind of impact on the events at the end of the movie? Everything about the finale of the movie happens the same way regardless of what Finn does.

It's a pretty pointless subplot outside of giving Finn a small amount of character development.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
If he is I'm going to fucking rage like no other. Like do all the black people in the universe have to be related. We have like 3. 2 of which aren't related and are cool but weren't main characters.

None of the black characters in Star Wars are related except for Steela and Saw Gerrera, who were introduced as siblings in the first place, so I don't know why this idea keeps popping up.

After making it obvious that Rey is a nobody, I don't see why we should assume Finn has to have ties to anyone else.

The canon EU has done a good job at expanding the diversity of the cast and they haven't fallen into that trap either.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
I think Rose played a more important part in that role and actually carried it more. Me, I genuinely think Finn was one of the best characters in TFA and wanted more of him. I also think there's a part of the audience (ie the black audience) who is legitimated in being pissed at seeing a character who was supposed to be a big deal being used as bait and switch in one movie and sidelined in the next.

That is where Me and my family comes from on this. We kinda are on the outs with Star Wars. We can abide by the bait and switch because of the promise of more with the character in the second movie because he had solid work put into him in the first Movie, But TLJ didn't put any work into the character at all, just kinda gave all of the B-plot to rose and had her lead Finn around, knocking him around and scolding him like a child.

The shit is maddening man. I live in Baltimore and Went to a black theater to see the movie with my Nieces and Nephews when it came out. There were not alot of happy people coming out of the theater. Alot of people were cold on the movie and While some liked it, the Almost universal thing heard as we were talking with people on our way out of the theater was that it felt like a the director didn't like Finn at all because he made him appear in most of the worst scenes of the movie.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,291
Midgar, With Love

Yeah, I really wouldn't label this a consensus. The only consensus on TLJ seems to be that there is no consensus. One of my best friends finished the movie and the first thing he messaged me was that "Finn is still the best". Personally I don't agree with him (Rey fan 4eva, me) but no one in my close friends group has actually had anything negative to say about Finn. Anecdotal as hell to be sure but proof enough to me that there really are people out there who were kosher with his stuff in the movie.

Well, people besides myself. I don't much care for his content in act 2 but I dig the act 3 scenes.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Yeah, I don't agree that it was a character assassination. But yeah, he was sidelined with a really uninteresting B-plot that has very little relevance or impact to the main plot what so ever. So I totally understand why Finn fans weren't happy with how he was handled in TLJ

stop with this shittttttttttttttttttt

Finn's is responsible for fucking up holdo's plan and the reason the battle of crait happens.

how is that LITTLE RELEVANCE?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
That is where Me and my family comes from on this. We kinda are on the outs with Star Wars. We can abide by the bait and switch because of the promise of more with the character in the second movie because he had solid work put into him in the first Movie, But TLJ didn't put any work into the character at all, just kinda gave all of the B-plot to rose and had her lead Finn around, knocking him around and scolding him like a child.

The shit is maddening man. I live in Baltimore and Went to a black theater to see the movie with my Nieces and Nephews when it came out. There were not alot of happy people coming out of the theater. Alot of people were cold on the movie and While some liked it, the Almost universal thing heard as we were talking with people on our way out of the theater was that it felt like a the director didn't like Finn at all because he made him appear in most of the worst scenes of the movie.


All I can say is I'm sorry it had to play out that way. I'm not black but I couldn't help feeling a sense of frustration seeing such a good character go to waste, expecially after the big deal that having a black lead was leading into TFA.

It feels like the progressive spirit of the new trilogy is mostly focused on feminism and that's great and all, but I think throwing Finn under the bus was unfair to such a big part of the audience. It's a case where we could have literally had both things.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
That is where Me and my family comes from on this. We kinda are on the outs with Star Wars. We can abide by the bait and switch because of the promise of more with the character in the second movie because he had solid work put into him in the first Movie, But TLJ didn't put any work into the character at all, just kinda gave all of the B-plot to rose and had her lead Finn around, knocking him around and scolding him like a child.

The shit is maddening man. I live in Baltimore and Went to a black theater to see the movie with my Nieces and Nephews when it came out. There were not alot of happy people coming out of the theater. Alot of people were cold on the movie and While some liked it, the Almost universal thing heard as we were talking with people on our way out of the theater was that it felt like a the director didn't like Finn at all because he made him appear in most of the worst scenes of the movie.
That's the perception that people are running away with which making them see things a certain way.

My disappointment with the Finn scenes stems from the fact that his best ones were cut from the movie. But I've seen them with Johnson's commentary and am aware of pacing issues as an editor so I get it, but it's rough. But I didn't dislike what I got, I dislike that we didn't get that was shot and was genuinely good.

But most of the complaints pretty much stem from "you didn't do what I wanted with X character, therefore you hate X character", it's a crowded movie with practically 5 leads that went on about 2 1/2 hours that I found ungodly long the first time I saw it. Now, it just zips by.

Sidelining would've meant entailed leaving him in a comma for most of the movie. That didn't happen, you just didn't like his plot.
"But TLJ didn't put any work into the character at all, just kinda gave all of the B-plot to rose and had her lead Finn around, knocking him around and scolding him like a child." - I read that and feel like we saw different movies.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
stop with this shittttttttttttttttttt

Finn's is responsible for fucking up holdo's plan and the reason the battle of crait happens.

how is that LITTLE RELEVANCE?
Wasn't Holdo's plan always going to get fucked up because of Rey more so than Finn? Rey was the one who was always carrying the tracker.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
"He wasn't sidelined! He actually screwed up royally and got people killed!"

You're not making things better!

thats not the fucking point

to say that finn's mission didnt have a impact in the story is bullshit

Wasn't Holdo's plan always going to get fucked up because of Rey more so than Finn? Rey was the one who was always carrying the tracker.

no, DJ heard poe over finn's comunicator and informed the first order about holdo's plan
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
All I can say is I'm sorry it had to play out that way. I'm not black but I couldn't help feeling a sense of frustration seeing such a good character go to waste, expecially after the big deal that having a black lead was leading into TFA.

It feels like the progressive spirit of the new trilogy is mostly focused on feminism and that's great and all, but I think throwing Finn under the bus was unfair to such a big part of the audience. It's a case where we could have literally had both things.
From these perspectives I totally get the frustration at the "sidelining" of Finn. I too was slightly disappointed with his use in TLJ. Finn in TFA is awesome, I love everything about his scenes at Maz's castle, I love his "come get it" attitude in the end. I love his seriousness in the beginning of TLJ with "Where's Rey?" I love his decision to go at the laser canon in the end. I dislike his goofy attitude in Canto Bight acting like a kid in a candy store - "this place is great!", that's the only instance I feel he is mischaracterized. I wanted more great moments for him in TLJ but do like a lot the great moments he did have. He is set up to be a continuing hero fully committed now to the fight against the First Order. Maybe he plays a key role in intel on the FO capabilities and maybe the idea of inspiring rebellion of FO troopers is used in Ep 9.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,035
That is where Me and my family comes from on this. We kinda are on the outs with Star Wars. We can abide by the bait and switch because of the promise of more with the character in the second movie because he had solid work put into him in the first Movie, But TLJ didn't put any work into the character at all, just kinda gave all of the B-plot to rose and had her lead Finn around, knocking him around and scolding him like a child.

The shit is maddening man. I live in Baltimore and Went to a black theater to see the movie with my Nieces and Nephews when it came out. There were not alot of happy people coming out of the theater. Alot of people were cold on the movie and While some liked it, the Almost universal thing heard as we were talking with people on our way out of the theater was that it felt like a the director didn't like Finn at all because he made him appear in most of the worst scenes of the movie.

Preach brother, I made a very thread about this and Black-Era seemed to agree. It doesn't matter whether you like the movie or not, Finn was done dirty in TLJ.
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
Awesome that Lando is going to be in this. I want to see him reunite with Nien Nunb, I want to see him inspire Finn, I want to see him be the badass awesome general from ROTJ again.

I also want him to be the guy who has secretly built a droid army more powerful than the Clone Wars Separatist battle droids, on intel and collaboration with Clone Wars General Kalani and this army is one of the keys to success against the First Order.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,602
I think it's fair to pin the failure of Holdo's plan on Poe, not Finn. Finn and Rose brought the information and some ideas to Poe, but it was ultimately Poe's decision to undermine the leadership. Finn was not a mutineer, he was the guy sent to carry out the plan. The failure is not on him, he did the best with the situation he was in. He still has an impact on the outcome, he and Rose are charged with carrying out the plan.

However, I don't think it's entirely fair to require him to have had an immediate impact on the event anyway. His arc isn't about changing the world, yet, it's about become the kind of person who can change the world. He was still drifting, having found someone to fight for, but not yet fully engaged with the cause. He has the clearest arc in my opinion, ultimately demonstrating that he is willing to sacrifice himself to be the hero. That he doesn't succeed, and is ultimately stopped by Rose, doesn't change the fact that his character has evolved.

It's okay not to like the events surrounding Rose and Finn's characters in film, to consider them clunky or poorly written. However, I don't think it's fair to say they deliberately threw Finn under the bus or did him dirty. Rian Johnson didn't have a mandate to write a bad part of the movie, and then decided Finn would be the sacrifice to the alter of mediocrity. That whole section seems like what Rian would believe is the adventurous beating heart of the film, and he gave it to two severely underrepresented minorities of different genders. It's clear it didn't work for everybody, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest it wasn't a try.

However, I can understand the idea of wanting it to be better. Finn is still a great character and Boyega is the most energizing actor in the films. I wanted more Finn too. I think the film ultimately left him in a very good place to actualize that desire.
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
I think it's fair to pin the failure of Holdo's plan on Poe, not Finn. Finn and Rose brought the information and some ideas to Poe, but it was ultimately Poe's decision to undermine the leadership. Finn was not a mutineer, he was the guy sent to carry out the plan. The failure is not on him, he did the best with the situation he was in. He still has an impact on the outcome, he and Rose are charged with carrying out the plan.

However, I don't think it's entirely fair to require him to have had an immediate impact on the event anyway. His arc isn't about changing the world, yet, it's about become the kind of person who can change the world. He was still drifting, having found someone to fight for, but not yet fully engaged with the cause. He has the clearest arc in my opinion, ultimately demonstrating that he is willing to sacrifice himself to be the hero. That he doesn't succeed, and is ultimately stopped by Rose, doesn't change the fact that his character has evolved.

It's okay not to like the events surrounding Rose and Finn's characters in film, to consider them clunky or poorly written. However, I don't think it's fair to say they deliberately threw Finn under the bus or did him dirty. Rian Johnson didn't have a mandate to write a bad part of the movie, and then decided Finn would be the sacrifice to the alter of mediocrity. That whole section seems like what Rian would believe is the adventurous beating heart of the film, and he gave it to two severely underrepresented minorities of different genders. It's clear it didn't work for everybody, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest it wasn't a try.

However, I can understand the idea of wanting it to be better. Finn is still a great character and Boyega is the most energizing actor in the films. I wanted more Finn too.
right on.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
would you people be mad if lando returned to be like he was on ESB?

i mean its kinda obvious he didnt continued to be part of the resistance/rebellion because he would have been there with Leia
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I think it's fair to pin the failure of Holdo's plan on Poe, not Finn. Finn and Rose brought the information and some ideas to Poe, but it was ultimately Poe's decision to undermine the leadership. Finn was not a mutineer, he was the guy sent to carry out the plan. The failure is not on him, he did the best with the situation he was in. He still has an impact on the outcome, he and Rose are charged with carrying out the plan.

However, I don't think it's entirely fair to require him to have had an immediate impact on the event anyway. His arc isn't about changing the world, yet, it's about become the kind of person who can change the world. He was still drifting, having found someone to fight for, but not yet fully engaged with the cause. He has the clearest arc in my opinion, ultimately demonstrating that he is willing to sacrifice himself to be the hero. That he doesn't succeed, and is ultimately stopped by Rose, doesn't change the fact that his character has evolved.

It's okay not to like the events surrounding Rose and Finn's characters in film, to consider them clunky or poorly written. However, I don't think it's fair to say they deliberately threw Finn under the bus or did him dirty. Rian Johnson didn't have a mandate to write a bad part of the movie, and then decided Finn would be the sacrifice to the alter of mediocrity. That whole section seems like what Rian would believe is the adventurous beating heart of the film, and he gave it to two severely underrepresented minorities of different genders. It's clear it didn't work for everybody, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest it wasn't a try.

However, I can understand the idea of wanting it to be better. Finn is still a great character and Boyega is the most energizing actor in the films. I wanted more Finn too.
That's kind of where I'm at.

I get being disappointed, I get wanting more, but I feel like some people are too eager to dismiss what was there and call it nothing.

And it's unfair that I'm giving the movie a little more credit for scenes they cut, some of which aren't even online, but knowing Finn waking up was intended to be the first shot of the movie, it's hard to take the "Rian Johnson hated Finn and didn't know what to do with him" complaint seriously.

I just feel like we wouldn't be having this conversation if those scenes were kept.
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
would you people be mad if lando returned to be like he was on ESB?

i mean its kinda obvious he didnt continued to be part of the resistance/rebellion because he would have been there with Leia
Not really sure what you mean. In ESB he was in a shit position trying to play it best as he could to protect his people and his city. At a certain point he decides fuck Vader it's time to get everyone out and help Leia and Chewie escape. He puts himself into a potentially more difficult situation and great personal risk in order to protect his people and help the friends of Han.

I think Lando is likely to remain that kind of person, after ROTJ and the things we know he does after, helping liberate Cloud City in Aftermath, the stuff he does in Battlefront 2.

He's gonna be part of the solution.

So in that sense, yeah I might be mad if he were portrayed in a way that was too far afield from that.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,451
Finn needs to summon force potential through sheer desire of helping his friends. Wish fulfillment + a real true "anyone can be a Jedi" moment. It'd be really neat. I also love the idea of Sasuke Solo, Rey, and Finn being trio that works together to build a new Jedi Order. The lore potential of that group in terms of books, games, etc is fantastic. Alas, I doubt it happens.

As for Billy Dee Williams--I'm not so in love with it if he's like a war general or something like that. He's 81 years old and I don't think it fits for either Billy the actor at this stage or Lando the character to have a large role in events. I suppose it can work as something of a cameo appearance--he'd have been perfect in a place like Canto Bight.

Someone joked about R2 and Chewie dying--I wouldn't be against it. One thing I haven't enjoyed about the Han and Luke deaths is how decoupled their side kicks were from them. Chewie is something of an extension of Han as a character. Same with R2 and Luke. Would love an epic send off for them both in IX.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Finn needs to summon force potential through sheer desire of helping his friends. Wish fulfillment + a real true "anyone can be a Jedi" moment. It'd be really neat. I also love the idea of Sasuke Solo, Rey, and Finn being trio that works together to build a new Jedi Order. The lore potential of that group in terms of books, games, etc is fantastic. Alas, I doubt it happens.
.....
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
Finn needs to summon force potential through sheer desire of helping his friends. Wish fulfillment + a real true "anyone can be a Jedi" moment. It'd be really neat. I also love the idea of Sasuke Solo, Rey, and Finn being trio that works together to build a new Jedi Order. The lore potential of that group in terms of books, games, etc is fantastic. Alas, I doubt it happens.

Someone joked about R2 and Chewie dying--I wouldn't be against it.

This is why fans don't write movies.