Yeah? I posted once or twice in HK threads and have played ton of games without posting about them before.
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Has Hollow Knight dethroned Super Metroid/SotN in the public eye?
- Thread starter Deleted member 2834
- Start date
In SOTN the first time you put the shield sword combo together you realize the true meaning of what it is to be a god.
No!
While I am one that also thinks Hollow Knight is the new gold standard I feel like most people take that as an attack on the other two titles which still are fantastic. After 20 years it is possible someone was able to take what made those games great and refine/expand it.
As much as I like Hollow Knight, it doesn't really offer anything new to the genre and is very length padded (IMO). It doesn't even come close to SotN and SM. But those games are colossal; I don't really ever see another game eclipsing the way I felt playing both of those for the first time.
Let me start by saying all three games are strong GOAT contenders, like as in you could put any of three games in your 1, 2, and 3 spot in any order I wouldn't mind. But for the sake of discussion lets compare the three in terms of what makes Metroidvanias great. Not mentioning music or art style cause that's too subjective.
Starting with what the player does the most in the game, moving their character. There is no contest, Hollow Knight has the best movement out of the three. Hollow Knight has some of the tightest, best feeling controls I've ever played in any game. The best jump arch, wall jump, double jump, dash; all fined tuned to most perfect detail. The Knight is simply a joy to control. By comparison, Samus feels like whale and Alucard like a camel, they simply trail behind. Samus has a cool wall jump that allows the player to sequence break but it honestly feels clunky. There's a Super Metroid patch that makes Samus move quicker and make the wall jump more consistent, that should tell you enough about the game's movement.
The advantage in movement leads in to an advantage in combat. This one is another no contest, Hollow Knight's combat is the absolute best in the genre. The way the player can combine the Knight's crazy moveset with his 4 directional sword swipes makes for a truly satisfying combat experience. You can bounce of an enemy, dash into a wall, wall jump from the wall, dash again, strike the enemy once more. Team Cherry developed the boss fights complementary to the main character's abilities which makes them the best the genre has to offer as well. Boss fights are frenetic, intense and high stakes without ever missing a beat. Symphony suffers from the risk of making every fight a chore since you essentially level up and get better gear, making combat a none factor. Super Metroid's combat boils down to tanking enemy hits while kinda dodging and burst damage at the boss' weak spot. I can say more but let me finish my saying that there is no better Metroidvania boss than Lost Kin, The Radiance, and Traitor Lord.
Map design. This one is all Super Metroid. It absolutely BLOWS my mind that the game that pioneered the Metroidvania franchise still has the best map design, just a testament to how well designed Zebes is. Every different area has its own feeling and identity. Hell, every different room has its own identity. The attention to detail Super Metroid has for it's map is outstanding. Hollow Knight's map design is great as well, but it does suffer from multiple areas having the same overall gimmick and identity. Symphony's map design is absolutely massive, but the weakest out of the three. Symphony's castle is plagued with lots of hallways with one random enemy and that's it. It really makes backtracking super annoying.
Let me finish with Symphony's greatest strength out of the three; the set pieces. In terms of moments where the player goes "holy shit they actually did that" Symphony is a clear winner. Realizing that there's a whole second castle to explore? Let me remind you that Symphony has the biggest map out of the three games, and there's a SECOND one on top of that. Bruh. Igarashi's ambition to make Symphony a game that players will play forever was met as soon as he designed that second castle. Super Metroid has one of the greatest endings ever, and Hollow Knight has some really clever set pieces; but those are narrative based. Symphony's was directly linked to gameplay.
Sorry if this reads like a mess. It's late and I should get some sleep.
Starting with what the player does the most in the game, moving their character. There is no contest, Hollow Knight has the best movement out of the three. Hollow Knight has some of the tightest, best feeling controls I've ever played in any game. The best jump arch, wall jump, double jump, dash; all fined tuned to most perfect detail. The Knight is simply a joy to control. By comparison, Samus feels like whale and Alucard like a camel, they simply trail behind. Samus has a cool wall jump that allows the player to sequence break but it honestly feels clunky. There's a Super Metroid patch that makes Samus move quicker and make the wall jump more consistent, that should tell you enough about the game's movement.
The advantage in movement leads in to an advantage in combat. This one is another no contest, Hollow Knight's combat is the absolute best in the genre. The way the player can combine the Knight's crazy moveset with his 4 directional sword swipes makes for a truly satisfying combat experience. You can bounce of an enemy, dash into a wall, wall jump from the wall, dash again, strike the enemy once more. Team Cherry developed the boss fights complementary to the main character's abilities which makes them the best the genre has to offer as well. Boss fights are frenetic, intense and high stakes without ever missing a beat. Symphony suffers from the risk of making every fight a chore since you essentially level up and get better gear, making combat a none factor. Super Metroid's combat boils down to tanking enemy hits while kinda dodging and burst damage at the boss' weak spot. I can say more but let me finish my saying that there is no better Metroidvania boss than Lost Kin, The Radiance, and Traitor Lord.
Map design. This one is all Super Metroid. It absolutely BLOWS my mind that the game that pioneered the Metroidvania franchise still has the best map design, just a testament to how well designed Zebes is. Every different area has its own feeling and identity. Hell, every different room has its own identity. The attention to detail Super Metroid has for it's map is outstanding. Hollow Knight's map design is great as well, but it does suffer from multiple areas having the same overall gimmick and identity. Symphony's map design is absolutely massive, but the weakest out of the three. Symphony's castle is plagued with lots of hallways with one random enemy and that's it. It really makes backtracking super annoying.
Let me finish with Symphony's greatest strength out of the three; the set pieces. In terms of moments where the player goes "holy shit they actually did that" Symphony is a clear winner. Realizing that there's a whole second castle to explore? Let me remind you that Symphony has the biggest map out of the three games, and there's a SECOND one on top of that. Bruh. Igarashi's ambition to make Symphony a game that players will play forever was met as soon as he designed that second castle. Super Metroid has one of the greatest endings ever, and Hollow Knight has some really clever set pieces; but those are narrative based. Symphony's was directly linked to gameplay.
Sorry if this reads like a mess. It's late and I should get some sleep.
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How was the progression system in Super Metroid any different than the one in Metroid or any other 2d exploration game of it's type? Get an item to access a new area in a previous location. Maybe fight a boss. Repeat until you win. Where's the innovation it gets all the credit for?
Super Metroid and Symphony are mechanically vastly different, only sharing a world with ability-gated areas.
Hollow Knight is more of a Souls-like Metroid-like.
Bloodstained is shaping up to be an Igavania.
Hollow Knight is more of a Souls-like Metroid-like.
Bloodstained is shaping up to be an Igavania.
It definitely has that art style popularized by Alien Hominid look, a flash game.
I see what you mean by the feeling it creates, but it does not have a bigger map (google maps of both), and in reality the second castle is hot garbage.
At first it seems like 'oh my god the game is twice the length' but it's really just the last quarter. It's clearly a sloppy last minute addition because they had some extra enemies/bosses left, as the layouts have not been designed to navigate well when upside down - you often jump up into a room only to hit a block and fall back down, and hence stuff like the clunky additional platforms in save rooms. There's also no surprise because it's already done areas just upside down, it's often poorly palette swapped, and has repeating music, and you already have all your navigation abilities (flying etc) so there are no extra 'doors' that need new 'keys'. As a result it also has a completely busted difficulty curve too.
If I had to rate it...
HK >> SM >>>>> SOTN
The boss fights / art direction / music / depth of content - really make HK shine above the rest
I would put HK above Ori as well since some people are commenting about that game too
As for the Public Eye - I think people are more aware of Metroid & Castlevania as games to play compared to Hollow Knight
Maybe a Hollow Knight physical release would help bring awareness
HK >> SM >>>>> SOTN
The boss fights / art direction / music / depth of content - really make HK shine above the rest
I would put HK above Ori as well since some people are commenting about that game too
As for the Public Eye - I think people are more aware of Metroid & Castlevania as games to play compared to Hollow Knight
Maybe a Hollow Knight physical release would help bring awareness
Yes. For production values, it has great visuals, with amazing animations, vibrant environments (even the gloomy insect caves still feel swarming with life) and great monster designs. Music is beautiful and moody, with epic boss themes. It's just very polished, especially considering the size of the team. For gameplay, you get the typical Metroid-like progression, with rewarding exploration, huge levels, intricate maps, full of secrets everywhere. And it's tough as nails* at times, both in terms of combat and platforming. It plays very fluidly too, no controls issues whatsoever.
It doesn't re-invent much, or anything really. But it improves on a winning formula and knocks it out of the park. Oh and did I mention the game is huge? I mean it's not just huge levels, the entire game world is huuuuuge and has so many secrets. Depending how slow and completist you are, you can easily take upwards of 40 hours. I'm at 50 and I haven't done everything...
* See what I did there? Tee hee..... I'll, I'll see myself out
I can't conceive of any universe where this is true, and I love SotN to death. Combat is the weakest aspect of SotN (that and its menus and flood of useless items, lol).
Bullshit.
It's not a Souls-like. Literally the only "Souls-like" aspect is having to retrieve your lost geo, which is similar to retrieving your lost souls (and geo is really not as important as your souls).
Hollow Knight is objectively a better game than those titles but it will never be more highly regarded than the founders of the genre.
Keep in mind, Hollow Knight doesn't have a lot of original new ideas to push the genre forward. It's a mishmash of many existing games.
Keep in mind, Hollow Knight doesn't have a lot of original new ideas to push the genre forward. It's a mishmash of many existing games.
It.... really, really doesn't. Look up "Alien Hominid flash" in Google images. Especially animated gifs. Then get back to me.
Agree, SoTN is a great game to experience for the graphics and music and atmosphere, but is a design mess, including the level design, progression design, and combat.
Just started HK but I'm happy that its living up to the hype so far.
With that said, it's hard to imagine any game ever replacing Super Metroid. Even Nintendo couldn't top Super Metroid. SotN I love, but I think I like some of the later Castlevanias (esp Dawn of Sorrow) just as much if not more because of the extra systems laired on top.
I hope HK can reach those same heights for me. I don't think you can really have this conversation for a few years though.
With that said, it's hard to imagine any game ever replacing Super Metroid. Even Nintendo couldn't top Super Metroid. SotN I love, but I think I like some of the later Castlevanias (esp Dawn of Sorrow) just as much if not more because of the extra systems laired on top.
I hope HK can reach those same heights for me. I don't think you can really have this conversation for a few years though.
What! No way! Just look at the gulf between them. Behemoth's games are a refinement of that Alien Hominid art style, but Hollow Knight is just not like that at all. This doesn't even touch upon how the two look in motion.
Alien Hominid said:
Hollow Knight said:
??? Some people need to check their eyes. Like actually if you're genuine about this I'm worried for your health but more than likely that's just guttertrash level trolling.
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Real talk, I think it's up their not sure if it really dethroned them after all did SotN dethrone Super Metroid?
As for reach I'm not sure if Hollow Knight will have the same reach and legacy but on a gameplay basis it for sure is up there for me.
I agree with almost everything you said and glad you brought this up because this is what makes the backtracking imo. When the rooms on the map have an identity, you have a brief idea where you need to go when you feel "stuck". It's pretty incredible how not only does it apply to the 2d games but it also applies to Prime as well. Everytime Samus gets a power-up it makes you think and want to retrace your steps and think back to a particular room where the power-up might be of use.
Hollow Knight, it was hard for me to figure out where to go in the mid-game. Like I said previously, I stumbled on the paths for the most part.
The characters definitely have that simplistic flash animation look with the thick outlines and simple goofy look. Its what delayed my playthrough for a good half year, and though im glad I eventually did play it I can also see why people get that impression.
Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night were already dethroned by other entries in their own franchises in my eyes. I can only assume that the people who still consider those to be the peaks aren't going to change their favourites easily.
As for Hollow Knight, I suppose I do prefer it over Super Metroid at least. Its biggest weakness is that it contributes relatively little to the genre of its own. Its more unique aspects have to come from how it handles the map, and while that stuff is cool, I do sort of lament that fact that it doesn't have more creative active abilities.
As for Hollow Knight, I suppose I do prefer it over Super Metroid at least. Its biggest weakness is that it contributes relatively little to the genre of its own. Its more unique aspects have to come from how it handles the map, and while that stuff is cool, I do sort of lament that fact that it doesn't have more creative active abilities.
U right. From a design perspective it's not the best but I found the difficulty to be fine. You should mastery of all your abilities by the time you reach the inverted castle.
Thank you! And I was the same with HK. Rooms would kind of mesh together; especially on Fungal Wastes, Greenspath and Queen's Gardens. I was basically glued to the map at all times, checking every 2-3 rooms.
Pff. It won't even be talked about in a few years. Throw it in with Guacamelee as "that popular Metroidvania game from a while back".
I feel like indie games just fade away fast because there's just so fucking many of them.
I feel like indie games just fade away fast because there's just so fucking many of them.
Guacamelee is a fantastic game that I still think back on fondly quite often. Hell, there's a sequel coming. I'm not sure we need to relegate it to "that popular Metroidvania game from a while back" just yet.
I just want to know how a kick-started indie game, not available on most platforms is able to dethrone games with decades worth of legacy? Literally pioneers of the genre. I mean just think about that. That's like saying the League MVP of a sports league is better than an all time great because they had one all star season. This concept just doesn't make sense. I hope Hollow Knight doesn't become the next game with an insufferable fan base because its a pretty good game and can stand on it's own merits without being better than 20 year old established games.
I've noticed a lot of complaints about map, visual variety, and to broadly call it "traversal". All complaints I shared about 5h into the game or so. But it really opens up after that. You learn the map, learn new skills, learn how the game works. Being a slow starter isn't good ofc but the pay off in this case makes it worth.
This was my biggest problem with HK. It's a great game, but the first hours had me ready to just drop it.
1) What does it being kick-started have to do with anything?
2) What does it being indie have to do with anything?
3) What does it not being available on most platforms have to do with anything?
4) What does other games having long legacies have to do with anything?
This thread is about comparing game against game and asking "Does this one do it better than this one?" If I were comparing a burger from a new chain against a Big Mac, the decades worth of legacy that McDonalds offer isn't going to matter to me. It's about which one tastes better.
Enemy and boss encounters are trash compared to modern counterparts (...like Hollow Knight).
This goes for Super Metroid as well.
I still think both are fantastic games but games have evolved a lot over the past 20 years.
Yeah HK is a 30+ hour game compared to a sub-10 hour game like Super Metroid, so the slower pace makes sense.
I don't remember getting so confused on where to go in Super Metroid like I continue to do with Hollow Knight. Maybe that's part of the game people enjoy but I've back tracked way too much in this game for my liking. I'm trying to finish it but this one aspect is starting to wear on me fast.
So in answer to the question, not in my eyes, not even close. Maybe once I finish I'll have a different take. I'm around 15 hours or so in right now.
So in answer to the question, not in my eyes, not even close. Maybe once I finish I'll have a different take. I'm around 15 hours or so in right now.
The game is absolutely gorgeous and I'll fight anybody who says otherwise! I can't believe how anybody can play (yes, bother to actually play) the game and not see that!
To answer the OP's question: yes and no.
For some people, Super Metroid and Castlevania:SOTN will remain sacred cows and will remain the better games. I'm not arguing that their opinion is invalid, far from it: those games became classics for a reason, and were used as templates for many of the game that followed. They defined the genre. However, those games have aged, and some gameplay-mecanics are outdated, and/or their flaws are more apparent (Super Metroid can be quite sluggish to play, especially for one who played the GBA games beforehand; SOTN lacks shortcuts to swap weapons and items on the fly, its inventory isn't practical, the hailed reversed castle lacks vision and feels like an afterthought, and let's face it, the game severely lacks challenge).
Hollow Knight takes these inspirations and sublimates them, with great exploration, tight gameplay, music and its own Dark Souls like story-telling. In my mind, Hollow Knight has become a game which will define the next Metroidvanias, a new template. Hollow Knight is to our era what Super Metroid and SOTN were to theirs.
For some people, Super Metroid and Castlevania:SOTN will remain sacred cows and will remain the better games. I'm not arguing that their opinion is invalid, far from it: those games became classics for a reason, and were used as templates for many of the game that followed. They defined the genre. However, those games have aged, and some gameplay-mecanics are outdated, and/or their flaws are more apparent (Super Metroid can be quite sluggish to play, especially for one who played the GBA games beforehand; SOTN lacks shortcuts to swap weapons and items on the fly, its inventory isn't practical, the hailed reversed castle lacks vision and feels like an afterthought, and let's face it, the game severely lacks challenge).
Hollow Knight takes these inspirations and sublimates them, with great exploration, tight gameplay, music and its own Dark Souls like story-telling. In my mind, Hollow Knight has become a game which will define the next Metroidvanias, a new template. Hollow Knight is to our era what Super Metroid and SOTN were to theirs.
They're both metroidvanias but Ori is more platforming focused while Hollow Knight is more about exploration and combat. If one of those appeals to you more than obviously you'll like that game the most. Both are 10/10s in my eyes.
some of it does look (and sound) great, but its hard to get that across without actually playing it.
Then you know what people have to do
Play the game. It's like.. £12 for 30-50 hours of content. And I would still contest that anybody without debilitating cataracts would be able to tell the difference between the pastel coloured, Looney Tunes with an edge Behemoth games and the darker, lush greenery of Hollownest in Hollow Knight. The backgrounds are a massive giveaway. And I love both Castle Crashers and HK.
It's a shame, I think you see them as homogenous because we haven't seen a great deal of hand-drawn games. Ubisoft created an entire engine for such endeavours that was used in like... three games (Valiant Hearts WW2 when?). Would you say Rayman Origins looked the same?
I haven't finished HK yet, but yes it seems its abilities are going to be too classical and unsurprising. It might also be too long for its own good.
In terms of pure fun gameplay, Super Metroid will probably stay on top.
if you comapred games in a bubble regardless of when they where released or the story behind them, i think hollow knight beats both, but i'm not sure of that's the correct way to go here.
super metroid and sotn are the games that directly or indirectly inspire every single metroidvania that gets made today, for that reason many people are going to put them above newer games.
super metroid and sotn are the games that directly or indirectly inspire every single metroidvania that gets made today, for that reason many people are going to put them above newer games.
You're genuinely unable to evaluate art if you think Hollow Knight isn't at some level a continuation of the art style popularized by Behemoth, straight up. There's more to art than which colors are used and the level of detail of a thing. It's completely influenced by the bold, cartoonish art style that became huge during the Newgrounds era. It's not a criticism, it's not an insult; it's a simple observation.
It also reminded me of Binding of Isaac's official artwork because of the dark setting but with goofy cartoon characters. I much preferred Enter the Gungeon for this reason, though I know a lot of people are also sick of pixel art style.