One reason mobile version is cheaper too, even with all the costumes
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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One reason mobile version is cheaper too, even with all the costumes
This is so cool, thanks for sharing and glad you could find a place to express yourself :)
I agree this thread has been very good, I myself learned a lot from it, and I know I'm not alone in this!
I think saying I love you is kind of a strong declaration frankly. Hell I think it's a strong declaration for a lot of Japanese games which throw it around like nobodies business as if it has no real meaning. I feel the reveal was a really bad place for it too, since it was about her being free and it did muddy the water. Never mind the absolutely stupid blade outfit all the while.
That said, I can believe she had a crush on him? After all a lot of her earlier scenes was actually about her being alone really, she lost her family quite early on and all she had was Dromach. It's not like Torna was the warmest of places either, and she wasn't exactly a member there for long. So considering her age, and the back story, I kind of do think it's probably believable that she could have gotten a bit of a crush on him due to him being there, and it wasn't entirely just listening either, he did basically save her from the prison in one of the earlier chapters after just commenting on the fact she didn't have anyone.
So while the reveal was about her being free, it's not like that was her only issue throughout the game, it's just that was a really dumb time for it. Even worse it ends up being pointless, because it just felt like the Melia problem all over again. *sigh*
Either way I'd still root for Nia over Mythra or Pyra. Eurgh.
That said, I can believe she had a crush on him? After all a lot of her earlier scenes was actually about her being alone really, she lost her family quite early on and all she had was Dromach. It's not like Torna was the warmest of places either, and she wasn't exactly a member there for long. So considering her age, and the back story, I kind of do think it's probably believable that she could have gotten a bit of a crush on him due to him being there, and it wasn't entirely just listening either, he did basically save her from the prison in one of the earlier chapters after just commenting on the fact she didn't have anyone.
So while the reveal was about her being free, it's not like that was her only issue throughout the game, it's just that was a really dumb time for it. Even worse it ends up being pointless, because it just felt like the Melia problem all over again. *sigh*
Either way I'd still root for Nia over Mythra or Pyra. Eurgh.
I find it interesting that some recent responses to the thread that object to its concept, are, instead of the initial arguments now largely listed in the OP, are 'the thread is too long and I can't be expected to read it'. Which is a really convenient way of dismissing the sheer weight of critique of what must be a couple of hundred examples of shitty sexualised/objectified design by now that backs up the OP (and, to be fair, several dozen examples of designs that people like too). Probably my favourite thread on Era.
Wow, thank you. That's so flattering. I don't know what to say!
And count me as also disappointed to see Nintendo go in the direction of pandering to horny otaku. Nintendo has always had it's sexist tropes- but I believe that their games have also always had a special appeal to girls by virtue of *not* being smothered in the toxic masculinity that so much of the industry revels in. Nintendo games appeal to "feminine" sensibilities in a way most developers don't. I believe these qualities resonate with those socialized as girls, cis and trans girls alike. It's why the The Legend of Zelda and Pokemon and Kirby and Animal Crossing have such notably big female fanbases. We're not the ones being trained from youth to deal with all our emotions by brutally killing everything.* I think Square-Enix is similarly appealing like Nintendo in this sense too (which makes Final Fantasy XV all the more disappointing, ugh, there's a whole other can of worms.)
But aside from Intelligent Systems and Bayonetta, I have hope that Nintendo is improving on these issues. It was so heartwarming to me knowing that Animal Crossing: New Leaf had a predominantly female development team and director, and looking at that series plus Splatoon and Super Smash Bros. I think they really are trying. Bit by bit I think things are really getting better. We're getting louder and more and more people are listening. :) Maybe even Princess Peach can be playable in the next Mario platformer again! (Please.)
*Not that I'm passing any judgement if you do like games about brutally killing everything.
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This is why I'm crossing my fingers for Fire Emblem on Switch. Whenever people say 'don't play those games' it's not like there's a huge amount of choice for that style of SRPG, the only other one being Shining Force that has now become the horror show that is Refrain. My background in strategy games, and why I like FE, is that I started out playing tabletop wargames and RPGs, and so the turn-based nature attracted me. It also means that I, at least initially, saw character designs a bit like the miniatures I painted and used, in that I wouldn't use the designs I disliked any more than I'd field miniatures I didn't like either. Over time my general dislike of overly sexualised design gelled with understanding why other people don't like it for far more important and wider-reaching reasons (and having a young family myself), and so it's been strange seeing some of Nintendo's studios flirt with doubling down on sexualised design for otaku on one hand while others seemingly try to be more inclusive.
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Literally my main focus watching that trailer was just checking the female character designs, and then getting excited when I realized none of them were objectifying.
Here's to hoping it's a sign of things to come!
You're far more on-point in this thread than I am, I was going 'Squee, look at those army formations!' :D
To be fair those were some pretty cool looking army formations. I'm also liking the new art style, it reminds me of the Radiant games.
Yeah, definitely a step in the right direction. Titania is still my favourite female 'knight' design (although there's a few other good ones buried in this thread too).
When it comes to FE characters, I've always been a fan of Echidna, she's in the hero class and looks the part. Too bad FE6 was never localized so many don't know her.
https://serenesforest.net/wp-content/gallery/binding-blade/art-book/Ekhidna.jpg
I remember hearing that during Fates' development, there was a divide with where people wanted to take it, those that wanted it to be a solid strategy game and those that wanted it to be trashy...
I don't know for sure if it's true, but it certainly shows in the final result.
I'm hoping with FE Switch, the existence of Heroes has absorbed those that want to indulge in the trashy stuff, but only time will tell.
https://serenesforest.net/wp-content/gallery/binding-blade/art-book/Ekhidna.jpg
I remember hearing that during Fates' development, there was a divide with where people wanted to take it, those that wanted it to be a solid strategy game and those that wanted it to be trashy...
I don't know for sure if it's true, but it certainly shows in the final result.
I'm hoping with FE Switch, the existence of Heroes has absorbed those that want to indulge in the trashy stuff, but only time will tell.
I agree. I hope heroes becomes a dumping ground of fanservice if it would mean that the upcoming games in the series are free of it.
I'm not surprised with hearing about the divide with Fates. The story across the three games are terrible, the female character designs are trash and its just a mess. The design of the generic enemy units and the map design in conquest are pretty good though.
In addition to everything you listed, I was surprised that, by the end of it, another thing I really disliked was the 'my castle' stuff. Just endless filler content required to level up shops and get better equipment. Completely unnecessary in an already lengthy game with three campaigns, as by the second one I was bored of it and by the third it was irritating busy work. I like strategy games with alternate campaigns as it makes a second run feel new again, Sacred Stones did it well, as did Front Mission 3.
I understand exactly what you mean. The missus is far more interested in Nintendo games than Sony or anything else, for example, and I can't blame her (incidentally, this translates into my collection of Wii U games being bigger than my PS3 and PS4 ones combined).
It's so sad to think that things used to be much more gender-neutral during the NES - SNES era and earlier; probably not coincidentally, that's the last time she played regularly, up until we met and started dating, and I introduced her back to games. Dudebro games have completely eclipsed less edgymacho alternatives in the public eye almost entirely (the only exception being, again, Nintendo). You don't see ads for games that don't targed the teen-young adult male demographic anymore, unless it's a Nintendo game.
Which is why seeing Nintendo now appeal to the horny teen too is so depressing. It's as if one of the last safe spaces were obliterated. And not only a safe space for women, but for people of all ages that don't see the appeal in realistic military shooty games. I'm 41, I'm not a hormone-addled teenager anymore. I'd rather play Smash or Zelda than Mortal Kombat or Call of Duty.
Agreed. It feels like at least some Japanese devs are finally starting to get it. Sakurai seems to be one, considering the changes to Zero Suit Samus in Ultimate.
Bayonetta is such an interesting case, though. Half of women will swear she's a feminist icon, the other half will swear she's pretty much a male fantasy doll pin-up. I can definitely see the arguments for both.
It was absolultely ridiculous that she wasn't playable in New Mario Wii U. I was so mad at that, especially considering well ove 80% of my dozens of hours playing Mario 2 as a kid were as her (her glide is soooo goood). I mean, "Hey, let's bring the cast from Mario 2 back! Mario! Luigi! Toad! Another Toad!" Are you fucking kidding me? >_> Good thing Mario 3D World fixed it and added Rosalina on top.
Yeah. It's like "I hoped this thread would die in a few weeks and instead you're permanently in the front page corrupting muh vidyagaims with POLITIKS!". But I'm glad they expose themselves like that so I can put them on ignore. :)
Why are the uniforms in fantasy high schools so damn complicated!? And why would the girls wear stuff like this?
I don't really see the issue with this outfit, and actually really like it. And you mentioned why "uniforms in fantasy high schools so damn complicated," I mean it's in a fantasy world. I suppose to make it more even the male's outfit could be more out there.
Edit: That's what I get for waiting to respond. Just saw your latest post regarding it. That said, I think the outfit is fine.
I had to hold myself back from posting that video in another thread last night. It's no good to poison the well.
TBF it was like that during the S/NES era, too, it just wasn't as obvious as they were targeting preteen boys, rather than adolescent ones. It started to veer upwards around the time of Mortal Kombat and Doom, when video games started getting a bad rep for violence.
Some of the ads from the 90s are sexist as hell - far worse than what we have now, for sure.
Yeah, agreed. And of course there was this default of having a male character trying to recue a female one (which, for all I love Miyamoto, he contributed a lot to).
Exactly, but that's the tail end of the SNES era (1993+), and even then, Mortal Kombat didn't really have a lot of notable copycats. It was when Sony entered the fray that it got amped up to eleven and male teen became the standard target demographic. Which I guess makes sense, as those would be the kids of the NES - SNES era...
Some of the ads from the 90s are sexist as hell - far worse than what we have now, for sure.
These are still shocking every time, definitely one thing that's improved now. Most of these look like parodies you'd see in The Onion!
Yeah wow, can't they stop this shit soon?
I got a very bad taste in my mouth when I saw the reveal of the story in Odyssey with the forced marriage (with themed Amiibo of course, Peach standing there in her wedding dress going "oh dear me!"). Forced marriage isn't in itself a huge problem to use for a villain (see A Series of Unfortunate Events) but it doesn't work when the series is so cartoony and the villain is so toned down. He's not even always a villain!
Note, I have not yet played the game. Maybe it ends up being something else, but eh. I don't know if I even wanna play it due to this ickyness.
Completely separated from the last paragraph, due to some earlier discussions I started to think about the whole girl/woman/anyone falls in love with the male protag thing because of some action or another. It's as if you can't ever just be friends with someone of the gender you fancy. Like, "he stood up for her in a time of need, so now she loves him and wants to marry him and make lots of babies." I hate it. Sure, develop a strong relationship due to the man being heroic or whatever, but seriously just make it platonic or a friendship at least once in a while!
Oh and of course any boy/man and so on also wants to get it on with the women if women are the main characters but that's not because the women did something for them, but just because they are women. Sexy, sexy women.
It really is sad the way you put it, a last safe space being taken away. As a child Nintendo games provided me with positive idols of feminine and effeminate characters. I loved Bow and Bombette and Watt in Paper Mario. I loved how kickass Princess Peach was in SMB2 and Super Smash Bros. Melee, and even her depiction in Paper Mario was quite empowering and relatable as you can get while still having her be a damsel in distress. And I resonated quite deeply with Link who, despite being a boy, was androgynous, pretty, and never expected to meet the standards of masculine "badassery" that alienated me from so many other games.
But...
This gives me hope. Samus was always the face of Nintendo's heroines; seeing her reduced to a sex icon over the past decade was depressing to say the least. But I absolutely adore her new design in Ultimate. I think Nintendo are listening, and between this and Animal Crossing and Splatoon I don't believe we'll lose our safe space. Also, unpopular opinion: I think ZSS's Rocket Heels are legitimately cool.
Bayonetta is definitely a complicated case, and my own feelings about her are complex. I think Bayonetta is genuinely cool. She's the kind of sexualized character who is so over the top and self-aware, so confident and playful and powerful and *cool*, I think she sells it. She makes it work. I'm not just attracted to Bayonetta; I admire her for her personality and her style. She resonates with me and inspires me.
Yet despite this, I don't like the way Bayonetta's games treat her. I don't like the voyeurism. The creepy ass and crotch shots, the nakedness, the leering camera. What makes Bayonetta cool to me is that she wields her sexuality as an expression of herself, autonomously, and it fits her personality perfectly. But there is no autonomy in voyeurism. It feels entirely disrespectful and gross for her games (the camera in the games themselves, a few screenshots in Smash) to treat her body like an object of desire for the audience regardless of her wishes; of how she feels about it.
And I get that sex appeal is a core part of her character, so from certain angles a bit of visual titillation is inevitable. I'm perfectly okay with that, if it's just a bit, just done briefly tastefully and with the intent of expressing her character rather than titillation for titillation's sake. And that's basically her portrayal in Super Smash Bros. bar a few exceptions. But the outright trophycation of her body- it feels wrong. It feels counter to who she is. It puts the player in control of what is seen, but what makes Bayonetta Bayonetta is that she's the one in control.
I love Bayonetta. I just want her games to treat her with the same admiration and respect that I do. And I do believe that, given her female character designer, she is a real representation of what some women can find cool *and* sexy. That's why these conversations around her are always so complicated, I think. I don't know how to describe it. Bayonetta just *feels* like a character by women, for women- and then put to work for men.
Peach not being playable in the NSMB series was bullshit and I'll never understand the logic behind it. Super Mario 3D World really made me happy by including her and Rosalina, and I thought maybe a precedent was being set- so I was pretty upset when Odyssey was revealed even if it did mean we get a cute bride outfit.
I hope we get to see her in action again soon. :)
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Thus fuelling the entitled "nice guy" narrative that's so prevalent in geek circles.
Games in general suck at human relationships. Especially games built on them. "Be nice to the ladies and they'll return the favour *nudge*nudge*wink*wink*."
Oh woah this is almost the same thing that I feel! I have not really thought much about it, not enough to really bother to express it. But it is definitely this thing about how she is a powerful woman that is still treated very bad by the camera.
I stumbled upon this trailer a week or so ago, and it made me think of Bayonetta and how it could have been with her. It's for the Heavenly Sword movie that apparently happened? I had no idea. Anyway, it features Nariko doing acrobatic fighting/kills and since she has a very silly "sexy" outfit and they focus a lot on her body it can look pretty bad at times, but they really just show glimpses, not any "fully spread legs fucking the camera in slow motion" shots. This is something that maybe could have looked really cool with Bayonetta?
Edit: That thumbnail tho...
Oh yes. :(
Yuck.
I understand why people might get aggravated by this, but at the end of the day what I value the most is the freedom of the artists behind these characters.
And while I'm prohibited by the mods to say that you should simply not purchase these products, I still think that is the most logical way of proceeding.
I am extremely afraid of censorship, in any form, and if we start placing some sort of emotional baggage upon these artists for creating the things they want (be they heavily sexual or not), it will only lead to a future where absolutely no one is content.
And while I'm prohibited by the mods to say that you should simply not purchase these products, I still think that is the most logical way of proceeding.
I am extremely afraid of censorship, in any form, and if we start placing some sort of emotional baggage upon these artists for creating the things they want (be they heavily sexual or not), it will only lead to a future where absolutely no one is content.
There was maybe one shot in that trailer that felt truly voyeuristic, but otherwise yes this is pretty much exactly how I feel Bayonetta should be portrayed- with some more sass and charisma, of course. :)
Not to defend that it wasn't off or anything, but the theme and intent of the story to be told with Xenoblade 2 was quite literally "Boy Meets Girl" according to Takahashi.
""A young adult story with a taste of boy-meets-girl. Lately it feels like all I've been doing are games full of devastation, like where your hometown burns down at the start, or the spaceship you're riding crashes(oh wait, that is all I ever do). Sometimes I just wanna try something different!"
As even the last chapter is so named that "Thus Boy Meets Girl"
The artists aren't given "freedom" to draw sexy waifus - they're selected for the job because they draw sexy waifus.
What I read from this is that by asking artists and designers to think a little harder about their choices, it'll lead to some nofunallowed dystopia instead of more well-rounded characters who aren't there just to titillate. Artists don't even get to create uninhibited or unfiltered, as they're beholden to the visions and specs provided by other people working on the game, focus testers and surveys, what they think the audience wants, etc. They already aren't creating free from all feedback and criticism. One of the things you learn about creating art is how to take criticism and balance that with what you want to create or the message you want to convey.
No one is asking for no sexy characters to get made (at least no one that I've noticed in this thread). For me at least I'd prefer if a character has a costume and personality that match up with each other as well as the world they inhabit instead of being virginal super-shy waifu bait in a battle bikini in a world of men armored from head to toe.
And whether or not not buying something is the best way to go (some people in this thread have already spoken out about skipping games they would otherwise buy because of these issues), doing that isn't the be all end all.
The issue with this arguement is how it's always applied to female characters. Full artistic freedom is bad because you need someon to tell you when you're getting out of control. Character designs should be representitive of the character's personality. Let's look at an example:
This is Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2. She comes off as shy and self-conscious. Yet she's dressed like a space stripper. It's not like she's stuck in her clothes - there's a hotspring scene where Mythra (Pyra's other personality) is wearing a towel. So why would she wear this other than to titillate the straight male otaku demographic. It's a bad character design and someone should call out whomever is responsible for this shit. Yet it got through the initial concept phase and made it into the final product. And when people say that this is a terrible design and should be changed, there's backlash of "don't censor our games!". Those remarks typically come from men. And the irony here, is that they actually got a design changed.
This is a character from Mobius: Final Fantasy. His original outfit is the one on the left and the altered one is the image on the right. When the original design was revealed there was heavy backlash because men couldn't handle a male character with a fanservice design and they got Square Enix to change it. There's some real irony here. I don't mind the outfit being changed. I'm gay so by the fanservice logic, I should like the design. But I don't. Outfits like this guys and Pyra's are stupid and they should be changed to something that isn't so trashy.
I'm not great at discussing, but my point is that outfits in games that serve to get people horny are shit and should only be in porn. Because designs like these are more likely to isolate people who would consider buying these games and they should be called out and changed for the better.
I understand all your points, but if the intent of these companies and/or creators is to titillate, why should they be prevented from doing so?
If Hideo Kojima wants scantily-clad women in his games, is it alright for us to step in and say "NO! You've had your fun! Now create what I want or don't create anything at all."?
Maybe it is. But it scares me.
If Hideo Kojima wants scantily-clad women in his games, is it alright for us to step in and say "NO! You've had your fun! Now create what I want or don't create anything at all."?
Maybe it is. But it scares me.
In Xenoblade 2, game director Tetsuya Takahashi wanted to make a 'boy meets girl' story. He said nothing about a hentai game.
Read the OP and at least a little of the thread, I'm pretty sure this has been addressed.
In summary, we're not preventing anyone from doing anything. Criticism is NOT censorship. Also nice strawman ya got there
But he's still portraying the characters as he wishes to portray them, right?
His reasons are, of course, his own. Maybe he's doing it for sales. Maybe he's doing it because he likes naked bodies. I will never know, but I certainly won't get in his way.
The most I would do is not buy his product.
Edit: By the way, I hope I'm not coming across as offensive. I think this is a sensitive topic.
I'm glad you found something important to be scared about.
Not entirely sure how I should respond to that, I was just being honest...
If I designed a male character in a JRPG wearing speedos that were very short and vert tight, had nipple tassles and 10-inch stilletos, but is incredibly shy and self-concsious (while have the body of a model), I should get called out on my bullshit and it shouldn't make it very far in the character design process.
A lot of us in this thread like Japanese games, but unless we want to be stuck playing retro games, we don't have much choice.
In his defense, as someone in the arts myself, it is a scary thought for many of us, both men and women, because it reminds us of past periods in time.
No one is ever going to be decapitated because they like drawing big tits.
Why is it not ok to criticize art? I am an professional artist, I am frequently criticized, it's up to me to determine whether or not I want to act on that critique. Art is not made in a bubble, with some creative director saying to me, or anyone else: 'Hey, do WHATEVER you want. You're the artist!'
Not to mention that, especially here in the gaming, the insular nature of the industry is keeping people with alternative voices out- both because it's a place for privileged people (men from high-income families who can afford art school/game design school) and made up of mostly men who grew up playing homogeneous, male dominated games. Problematic practices SHOULD be called out because it allows room for alternative perspectives and brings to attention the necessity for art and artists who are not simply regurgitating 'what they know' and challenge norms that dominate the creative landscape. The fact that sexy females are the norm (though becoming less common in the west) should be brought into question. If it was the other way around, I'd say the same thing, because we need far more diversity IN GENERAL in design, writing, and leadership.
There is literally no reason to feel this way. I'd be more fearful of being criticized for changing norms than for (edit:) maintaining them.
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Creative freedom doesn't give anyone immunity from criticism. Same reason you can't just design racist shit and expect no blowback.
And it's not even creative freedom, so much as pandering to a shrinking base of customers.
And it's not even creative freedom, so much as pandering to a shrinking base of customers.
I don't really know how to respond to the scared thing because... what, specifically, are you scared of happening? This same type of criticism happens for basically every form of media, and people are still free to create what they want at the end of the day. I can't speak for everyone but I'm pretty sure majority opinion isn't that creation of sexy characters shouldn't be criminalized or a punishable offense.
I think it will be easier to understand where we're coming from if you drop the line of thinking that we're trying to bully designers and developers into doing things our way or not at all. None of us have the power to do so, and at best we'll just sigh and begin the next round of discussion on what characters were done well and which weren't.
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Ultimately, the real solution is to push for more diversity in game development, and to broaden its creative horizons. If we had more choice - if titty waifu trash was a niche and not the norm - then we could take our money elsewhere.
Unfortunately, decades of (not-so) subtle sexism and toxic masculinity has given men a sense of ownership over the medium, which they're now going all out to retain.
Unfortunately, decades of (not-so) subtle sexism and toxic masculinity has given men a sense of ownership over the medium, which they're now going all out to retain.
Isn't the whole point that her design contradicts with the story?
User Banned (3 Days): Trolling.
Who else keep coming back to the thread to see the pictures! hi five guys, i kwon i can't be the only one. It's a joke. It's real. And hope that dont get banned. But well, that's all.
or not? i mean, it's what you usually see in fantasy jrpgs, they put dress/armor/weapons (and even hair, lol) practicality in last place and prioritize design (with or without skin exposure). i mean it's digital, having high heels and sand doesn't really give you disvantages unless the developer choose to implement it. you can criticize that a skimpy armor won't defend you but in games it's just a matter of numbers and it's clear those games don't focus on that, so that's a moot point.
i would have left the mobius design as it was btw, i'm for fanservice for all
The issue is that it isn't equal. It's not about numbers or practicality, it's about having clothing that the character would actually be comfortable wearing and not just pandering to horny otakus.
OP
OP
I wish I had a PC that could run FFXV windows edition so I could mod Cindy into having actual clothes :/ alas my laptop would probably shortcircuit if I tried
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