'Feminists' Who Exclude Trans Women Aren't Feminists At All

Chekhonte said:

I don't think all or nothing attitudes fix anything and I think a majority of these people can be made to come around to the reality of the situation. In my opinion when you throw people out, you lock people into their form of thinking.

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This isn't about all or nothing, these people are literally not feminists. Please read the article, and understand that these women are actively campaigning to remove rights from other women. They're not allies to women in any way when they're going about that.

And please do not pull that "If you call them TERFs and say they aren't feminists, its your fault that they're still that way" It is not our job to educate the hateful, and its not our fault if they remain hateful. I have no problem trying to teach and help people understand trans issues, but not letting us call a spade a spade is a little ridiculous.

rjinaz said:

These are just words, they mean nothing. TERFs are not feminists no matter if you hope someday they might change their minds. They can be feminists then.

It's like saying "I'm for equal rights of all people regardless of race. Well except Blacks."

Well then guess fucking what? You're not for equal rights of all people regardless of race.

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I get your point and if somebody said that, I'd press back using the common ground that you share are parts of your argument at that point just like I said we should do. You guys are really bad faith operators. Reply if you want but there'd be no benefit for me reading it.

TERF's are hateful pieces of shit.

rjinaz said:

These are just words, they mean nothing. TERFs are not feminists no matter if you hope someday they might change their minds. They can be feminists then.

It's like saying "I'm for equal rights of all people regardless of race. Well except Blacks."

Well then guess fucking what? You're not for equal rights of all people regardless of race.

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I would stop.

Chekhonte said:

They are feminists. They're just misguided in one specific area. I think throwing them out of the category is a mistake rather than continuously pressing back at them in this one area.

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Not thinking I should exsist is "misguided"? And this type of thinking is part of why I am so fucked up and self abusive and living with pain instead of dealing with it.

But yeah, I am used to it.

A really good way to figure out who wants true equality and those who just want their group to have a seat at the table of privilege is to mention anything involving Trans issues. See it here even, quite a bit.

Lwyn said:

I would stop.

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I'm not following, why should he stop? That seems like a pretty apt comparison to the issues with TERFs. They say that they're for all rights for women, but in reality, they aren't. I would even say they go a step further, because in that scenario, they would be looking to take rights away from black people as well.

People can call themselves whatever they like when it comes to feminism, but what actually matters is the actions that they take and support.

Chekhonte said:

I get your point and if somebody said that, I'd press back using the common ground that you share are parts of your argument at that point just like I said we should do. You guys are really bad faith operators. Reply if you want but there'd be no benefit for me reading it.

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How is that a bad faith argument?

"I'm for equal rights of all women, well except those women."

It's the same kind of argument.

Lwyn said:

I would stop.

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Nah.

TERFs can fuck off.

Ketkat said:

I'm not following, why should he stop? That seems like a pretty apt comparison to the issues with TERFs. They say that they're for all rights for women, but in reality, they aren't. I would even say they go a step further, because in that scenario, they would be looking to take rights away from black people as well.

People can call themselves whatever they like when it comes to feminism, but what actually matters is the actions that they take and support.

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Comparing one's race who can not change to another race to a person who is transitioning or has transitioned into a different gender isn't a 1:1 comparison.

Lwyn said:

Comparing one's race who can not change to another race to a person who is transitioning or has transitioned into a different gender isn't a 1:1 comparison.

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I'm not even comparing race and gender. I'm comparing how you can't identify as something for all of a race or gender (as examples), but then exclude certain people within the group. If you love all races but hate one race you're a racist. If you support equal rights for all women, but not that group of women, you're not a feminist.

Lwyn said:

Comparing one's race who can not change to another race to a person who is transitioning or has transitioned into a different gender isn't a 1:1 comparison.

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I don't follow how that's relevant to this comparison or this thread in any way. This is about the issues of equality, and the labels that people use with them. Being trans isn't a choice, just as the race that you are isn't a choice. You can't pick and choose who you want to support in the fights for equality, actively tear down one group, and then pretend that you're still for equality and that you deserve the labels that come with that. That's just not how the world works, and everyone can see straight through it.

If your "branch" of a momvent that fights for equlity is far more concerned with who doesn't deserve equal treatment, then you are not actually a part of said momvent.
It would be one thing if they were indifferent to trans issues, but instead they fight against trans people instead of actually doing anything produtive.

Mewshuji said:

I agree they don't actually adhere to feminist principles. But, I mean, what do we call them then?

The F in TERF is obviously a misnomer. Transphobe, to them and their supporters, isn't a dirty word, and might only embolden them.
Asshat, fool, dumbass, and so on, are far too general.

Maybe just TERs? Trans exclusionary radicals? I'd say TWER, but, trans men and nb individuals are effected by their shit as well.

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TERDS, Trans exclusionary radical Dumasses

Lwyn said:

Comparing one's race who can not change to another race to a person who is transitioning or has transitioned into a different gender isn't a 1:1 comparison.

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You cannot change gender idientity anymore than you can change your ethnicity.

sapien85 said:

In a perfect world all marginalized groups would work together to improve their stations together but in reality they get divided by those who benefit to weaken them all.

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Divide et impera.

I keep saying this but libs need to embrace militant ideologies and read their Sun Tsu like the right wing does to even stand a chance in the current climate.

We keep mocking them and treating them like idiots yet they have taken every branch of power in this country without real opposition.

Sorry I probably went a bit off topic. I don't even know what TERF means, lol.


Edit: nevermind, just saw it.

TERFs are worthless.

Fuck TERFs. No better than right wing trash, they can all get together and leave this planet forever.

Lwyn said:

Comparing one's race who can not change to another race to a person who is transitioning or has transitioned into a different gender isn't a 1:1 comparison.

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You can't change your gender identity anymore than you can your race. It's a pretty apt comparison, especially since white feminists have often excluded women of color.

Suzushiiro said:

Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist

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Thanks. I wish people wouldn't use uncommon acronyms in mixed company.

Chekhonte said:

They are feminists. They're just misguided in one specific area. I think throwing them out of the category is a mistake rather than continuously pressing back at them in this one area.

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Actually most terfs are also bifobic, against the rights of sex workers and think that since sexism is the ultimate oppression, a white woman cannot opress a black man

And that is ignoring the extrapolation of those points, like not respecting a cis lesbian of calling herself lesbian if she dates a trans woman

Wolven Hammer said:

Divide et impera.

I keep saying this but libs need to embrace militant ideologies and read their Sun Tsu like the right wing does to even stand a chance in the current climate.

We keep mocking them and treating them like idiots yet they have taken every branch of power in this country without real opposition.

Sorry I probably went a bit off topic. I don't even know what TERF means, lol.


Edit: nevermind, just saw it.

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They've taken every branch of power because of people like you who INSIST on bending over backwards to make these people feel comfortable and that their views are valid instead of treating them like the scum they are and fighting back.

Chitown B said:

Thanks. I wish people wouldn't use uncommon acronyms in mixed company.

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You posted this on a device that would allow you to easily google the acronym.

Chitown B said:

Thanks. I wish people wouldn't use uncommon acronyms in mixed company.

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It's a very easy one to Google.

Morrigan said:

It's a very easy one to Google.

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Sure, but in a public discussion you should assume the least common denominator if you want to get your message across, and not have to go elsewhere to look up something easy enough to spell out (at least once at the start). This is a pet peeve, and it goes for all threads. Anyway, carry on!

Platy said:

Actually most terfs are also bifobic, against the rights of sex workers and think that since sexism is the ultimate oppression, a white woman cannot opress a black man

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This is a very good point. I was involved in a lot of queer woman subreddits for years, and most all TERFs were absolutely disgusting in regards to bisexual women and sex workers too :( Their comments were almost indistinguishable from incel bullshit like "can you imagine eating out a pussy some guy's semen has been in? DISGUSTING!" Whenever they'd encounter a bi trans girl sex worker you could almost see their heads just fucking explode.

TERFs can burn.

Chitown B said:

Sure, but in a public discussion you should assume the least common denominator if you want to get your message across, and not have to go elsewhere to look up something easy enough to spell out (at least once at the start). This is a pet peeve, and it goes for all threads. Anyway, carry on!

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Wee-woo wee-woo! Tone police, freeze!

Chitown B said:

Thanks. I wish people wouldn't use uncommon acronyms in mixed company.

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It would be better to Google because it would also tell you that the radical part does not mean neither skate nor extreme, just a shitty branch created in the 70s that has all the problems of a 70s social group like the ones I mentioned above

How pervasive is this line of thinking? I have only heard of it occasionally and thought it was really minor. I hope it isnt spreading.

This is a bit like saying that you can't be a Democrat and a racist. That is historically not true and currently it would mean going against a core position of the Democrat Party but said person can still identify with the party and the rest of it's positions. If you want to define everything as black and white then yes, TERF cannot be considered Feminists nowadays.

Chitown B said:

Thanks. I wish people wouldn't use uncommon acronyms in mixed company.

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What's wrong with asking? It's ok to ask.

MadJakeChurchill said:

Wee-woo wee-woo! Tone police, freeze!

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That's not tone policing. Why do people insist on misusing logical fallacies?

Asking for an acronym to be defined in an OP about that acronym isn't tone policing, it's asking for consideration. Personally I'm with the "google it" people, but in no way is their request tone policing.

I agree with the article.

Fuck TERFs.
And not in the fun way.

Volimar said:

That's not tone policing. Why do people insist on misusing logical fallacies?

Asking for an acronym to be defined in an OP about that acronym isn't tone policing, it's asking for consideration. Personally I'm with the "google it" people, but in no way is their request tone policing.

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Fair enough. I see it as "well you should be nicer if you want people to like you", which sounds like tone-policing to me.

Ratrat said:

How pervasive is this line of thinking? I have only heard of it occasionally and thought it was really minor. I hope it isnt spreading.

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Very pervasive.

The lengths these people will go to out of their own malice is disgusting.

TERFs are just completely awful.

deathkiller said:

This is a bit like saying that you can't be a Democrat and a racist. That is historically not true and currently it would mean going against a core position of the Democrat Party but said person can still identify with the party and the rest of it's positions. If you want to define everything as black and white then yes, TERF cannot be considered Feminists nowadays.

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Yeah sure they can still consider themselves whatever they want, but I am very much not interested in making racists and transphobes feel comfortable in a progressive movement (or modern society as a whole tbf). Also, Democrats have tons of racists in their ranks, so I don't really think anyone really says that. Perhaps saying you can't call yourself a progressive and be racist is more apt. Which is true. And I'm perfectly fine with being black and white when it comes to racism and transphobia not being welcome. TERFs are not feminists.

Why did I naively think that any feminist would support trans women? I've got to stop being so stupid.

Whoa boy, these user culling threads are tricky business.

Vincent Alexander said:

Why did I naively think that any feminist would support trans women? I've got to stop being so stupid.

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I'll one up that, why did I ever think every woman would be a feminist lol

PhazonBlonde said:

Fuck TERFS.

At one point it was socially acceptable for so-called "feminists" to exclude queer women and women of color. This should not be acceptable, and others have said we have a duty to accept, protect and empower our trans sisters.

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Well said. :3

rjinaz said:

I'm not even comparing race and gender. I'm comparing how you can't identify as something for all of a race or gender (as examples), but then exclude certain people within the group. If you love all races but hate one race you're a racist. If you support equal rights for all women, but not that group of women, you're not a feminist.

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Ketkat said:

I don't follow how that's relevant to this comparison or this thread in any way. This is about the issues of equality, and the labels that people use with them. Being trans isn't a choice, just as the race that you are isn't a choice. You can't pick and choose who you want to support in the fights for equality, actively tear down one group, and then pretend that you're still for equality and that you deserve the labels that come with that. That's just not how the world works, and everyone can see straight through it.

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PhazonBlonde said:

You can't change your gender identity anymore than you can your race. It's a pretty apt comparison, especially since white feminists have often excluded women of color.

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My comparison was completely wrong and for that I apologize.

Though, I still stand by the notion that race is a different subject and should not be compared to gender issues. I'm not putting either one above the other in importance because both have their set of issues.

You're either for the opportunity of every individual to live life according to their own beauty, or you're not.

Anyone who isn't on board with this pretty simple premise is not a reliable ally, and not a humanist in any meaningful sense of the word.

How popular/prevalent is the TERF problem within feminism? Is it a very vocal minority or is it an unfortunate majority?

Not Donald Trump Jr said:

Whoa boy, these user culling threads are tricky business.

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It's really not tricky to not be racist or bigoted towards people and respect their humanity.

People like to pretend otherwise but it's just to justify their own behavior.

Living and learning, I had no idea this kind of prejudice existed among women. Women should fight together, but it's sad that that kind of segregation exists among women, just as there's segregation among the LGBTQI+ community.

Brian McDoogle said:

How popular/prevalent is the TERF problem within feminism? Is it a very vocal minority or is it an unfortunate majority?

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They're a loud minority, in my experience. In my time as a queer woman subreddit mod, I often had to wonder how many of these TERFs were actual women, and how many were just trolls or bots. They definitely used all the tactics of the alt-right, including brigading subs, trying to doxx users, and bullying trans women out of queer women spaces.

There are also an uncomfortably large amount of older white feminists that have transphobic views. This is likely due to the 'gender crit' style of radical feminism popularized in the 1970's. Gendercrit being that they try to set up this false dichotomy between freedom of gender expression/gender norms and gender identity. I.e. "Trans women can be fine just being a feminine gay cis man." This completely ignores the reality of queer trans women, non binary identities and trans men,, amongst other issues.

MadJakeChurchill said:

Fair enough. I see it as "well you should be nicer if you want people to like you", which sounds like tone-policing to me.

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Sorry, I didn't mean it that way at all. It's more like "please define your terms and then shorten them subsequently in order to keep all information needed within the thread". It was more in response to the cascade of every post saying "TERFS SUCK" but no one defining it for some reason.

Anyway, yes TERFs suck.

dreams said:

They've taken every branch of power because of people like you who INSIST on bending over backwards to make these people feel comfortable and that their views are valid instead of treating them like the scum they are and fighting back.

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You're way off, champ. Unless you have me confused with someone else. It's ok, stupid shit happens.

Still, I'll clarify.

I said libs need to get better organized and embrace effective militancy like the black panther, Malcolm X and brown beret groups did. That's not bending over to the GOP when history shows that they fear this approach.