I've seen some Potato Mode videos that leads me to believe it'll run on pretty old hardware, but... that's no way to play it. *shudders*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Mf4thHkQs
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
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I've seen some Potato Mode videos that leads me to believe it'll run on pretty old hardware, but... that's no way to play it. *shudders*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Mf4thHkQs
I can agree with you about it needs to be more equal. However, things like comfortable wearing these clothes don't really make sense. The majority of these games are fantasy and even the more "appropriate" clothes aren't going to be the best to use in certain situations.
First they came for the anime titty games, but I said nothing...
Disagree. As a girl, it takes me out of a game's immersion to think "there is no way you could travel or fight in that outfit." While playing FFXII I couldn't help but keep thinking how Fran will most like get a UTI or yeast infection from basically hiking and camping in a thong. And if that material is made out of some kind of hard leather or metal armor.. fucking OUCH. Also most the outfits in Soul Calibur would require HEAVY amounts of body tape to stay on right. You would absolutely not be doing back flips in them.
Also artists are subject to direction just like everyone else on the development team. The Persona 5 art book mentioned that they were specifically directed to make all the female characters look cute.
Here's the way I see it. The camera in Bayonetta is an extension of here will. She's essentially a 4th-wall breaking entity winking at the camera rather than someone unknowingly at its mercy, like a runway model. I think that's one reason Bayonetta has sort of become an icon of drag queen culture.
When something is so over the top (and the characters aren't miserable), it feels like they're in on it, almost as if they're characters in a play rather than fictional entities with no will. Lollipop Chainsaw is another example of this.
Maybe that'll make it easier to play the games or maybe not. Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
What? No one is talking about decapitation. What are you even talking about? Talking recent periods in history such grandparent's or parent's time.
No, not talking about critiquing art. I see nothing, for example, wrong with sexualization. What I think the industry needs is more diversity in that regard. For them to be open to sexualization of men or non binary people just as much as it is open about it towards women.
My issue, is I don't agree with calling out artists because you deem their work problematic, which to me is a not a good road to take, There is critique, which is important, and then calling out artists for their work.
So to me, sexualization is not problematic. Lack of diversity in sexualization is problematic.
My best friend is a talented illustrator. Her drawn women are always scantily clad, have large breasts, and so on. Now, one can of course critique her art. Whether from a technical aspect or a more subjective one, such as her depictions. That is fair. But there is a difference between that and people trying to call her out as if what she is doing is wrong. Or that her art is harmful, which takes me back to what I said that those type of fears are thing with many because it harkens back to our parent's or grandparent's time. You ask her straight up why her women are always like that and she will straight up say "I like tits and sexy clothes". And I think that is perfectly fine.
I am with you in the problematic parts of the industry, and that we need more diversity. We need more diversity from artists and we also need more diversity in sexualization. But you cannot say "literally" because that seems dismissive of many in the art community as well.
What's funny?
That was a very interesting read. Hadn't seen it before.
I like him even more now.
Yeah I have not played Xenoblade 2 so it wasn't really specifically about that. It was just a feeling of "this happens all the time" sparked by the earlier discussion.
And while it might have been the goal in that game and many others, it's just so overdone that it feels even more annoying that it apparently is the whole point of the story.
Probably funny in reply to esserius saying Amano left because industry changes, but reality is he just wants to draw cute girls too.
I think this is a very real double standard that needs to change, but not necessarily at the expense of creative freedom.
The Mobius controversy was appalling and showed a lot of these people that cry censorship are massive hypocrites, but that doesn't necessarily make the underlying argument meaningless.
The Hawkeye Initative has opened my eyes on how much great male objectification we're missing out on, and that's why I think equalizing the playing field through more rather than less should be a focus going forward.
I mean, that much is obvious if you look at his actual portfolio. The Virgin artbook, in particular, is all women.
Personally, I'd say he's a world above the current standards. He actually references real life, for a start.
First of all, kinda late, but welcome Leafiona !
I'm not sure what you're going "Ah ha!" at? Saying he likes to draw cute girls doesn't have to automatically imply anything creepy. That's like implying someone who enjoys teaching kindergarten that they're a pedophile.
A lot of Amano's art galleries have just been "cute" girls. I mean the thing he refers to in the article as the cute girl he likes to draw is LITERALLY this:
Edit: Sees Dary 's post
I'm not sure what you're going "Ah ha!" at? Saying he likes to draw cute girls doesn't have to automatically imply anything creepy. That's like implying someone who enjoys teaching kindergarten that they're a pedophile.
A lot of Amano's art galleries have just been "cute" girls. I mean the thing he refers to in the article as the cute girl he likes to draw is LITERALLY this:
Edit: Sees Dary 's post
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How is sexualization not problematic? You can't just state it without any arguement behind it and ask us to accept it. The designs of female characters often goes directly against their personalities. Those designs lead to a less diverse audience for those games etc.
Because I have a different outlook on sexualization. I'm not asking everyone to accept it because of course we all have diffeeenr outlooks here and what is appropriate in art or not.
I did say I fully agree with he aspect of diversity in the industry.
What is mainly problematic to me is the lack of diversity in sexualization. I want to see more sexualization men. Sexualized non binary. I want more of that, and not just women.
Yes cute, not super sexy girls in very little clothing. The industry isn't focused on cute girls at all, especially not what Amano seems to see as cute. And he talks about his art depicting characters with an actual personality. He's basically saying a lot of stuff that was talked about as positive and something many would want, just before the link was posted.
There are some "pin-up girl" like artworks on the page that was linked in the article. But most pictures are just faces and they are indeed very cute!
If that scares you, perhaps the problem is your fear of bogeymen?
The moment something scantily-clad is being criticized, you act as if people are saying "Now create what I want or don't create anything at all."
That is projection. What you think is not what is being said. Any art can be criticized. Why should the portrayal of women be any different?
Art, especially commercial art, cannot be immune to criticism. I have no idea what you mean by 'dismissive of many in the art community,' but I'll say that simply creating art for art's sake is not wrong, nor is creating creating a specific type of art wrong. But when art is sold, and when capatalistic forces push certain 'art' (in this case, pop-culture rather than traditional art), then problematic elements are fair play. These elements reflect more than holy inspiration on part of the artist, and no matter what art or speech you are creating it is not something beyond the realm of cultural critique nor is it absent from the pressures of the culture that informed it.
You friend likes to draw busty ladies and sexualized characters- that's fine- but what exists beyond the frame of sexuality in those figures? What pressures move their creation? I ask you this: could the environment that maintains a certain set of creative frameworks be harmful in a sense that exists beyond the intention of the artist? Could a person, ignorant to these forces, create something problematic?
Regardless of your opinion on art, or whatever your personal assessment of what is and isn't art, texts created to be read aesthetically are also subject to being read culturally. You, or any other artist, will never and SHOULD never be immune to being analyzed as a body of work or outside the greater cultural pressures that define those works. How else would we identify what is 'challenging' art vs what is simply 'good craft?'
I'd challenge you and any other artist to think about what society says about your work and why you make the art you do. Think about a greater conversation beyond 'I am compelled to draw boobies,' and instead 'who is this character.' What purpose does art serve if its simply to facilitate the ego of the artist?
Draw without limits, test yourself, draw lots of boobies, but don't pretend like you get a pass from greater cultural conversations because you are the man with the pencil. If drawing sexualized women is what you or your friend loves to do then do it, but when people say 'maybe there are too many booby artists,' don't be surprised when you find you're really not all that special after all.
Because THAT'S what this conversation is really all about. There is a status quo within the industry, especially in the east, that reflects a troubled, tired perspective of women and how women should be portrayed. We aren't dragging specific artists out into the open, barraging their twitter feeds with criticisms or threats, nor are we calling for the boycotting of Xenoblade or Dragon's Crown unless those artists are fired. What we are criticising is how widespread these practices are and how certain parts of the industry, and certain genres for that matter, have been completely dominated by these poor representations. Artists are certainly part of the problem, but far more of the blame should be placed on leadership and obsessive fans that demand nothing but this content.
That's why there is nothing, as an artist, to worry about. It has never been easier to be an artist who draws sexualized characters. In fact, I'd say it's far more dangerous to be condemned for doing the opposite- for being accused of forcing non-sexualized characters into gaming.
I'm talking about diversity in gamers and you're talking about diversity in sexualization. Those are different things.
And of course we view sexualisation differently. You seem to be fine with a character being a contradictory mess where her personality speaks to one thing and her design says something else entirely.
Instead of fixing an issue within the industry, your solution is to forgo story and plot entirely and address a different issue.
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That's not the problem, I knew of this before going into the game and had it been executed well it wouldn't be an issue. What I dislike heavily about it is that it's more of a "Boy meets GIRLS" and the main girl is a hundred years old one that looks and behaves as a young adult and yet is still attracted to a child, it's creepy and weird.
Also on the harem part
Seeing such a childish handling of romance is extra disappointing due to XC1 having done it so much better. That game had a situation where two women are in love with the protagonist too, but it flows far more naturally and it's even resolved in a surprisingly mature and unusual manner for a game like it, I loved it... Though yes, Melia is also a hundred years old woman that behaves like a young adult, dumb stuff.
Lol.
I guess I have to preface that I'm a girl too? Personally, I've never had that problem. If something looks funny, I acknowledge it, but then ignore it. Clothes in particular are pretty easy for me to look over. I mean, in Dark Souls 1 you have people in full havels doing back flips, is it plausible? No, but it's game.
Do I always appreciate that it's mainly females that have the more revealing clothes and being basically sex objects? No, but at the same time, I won't put real world physics for things like that. With games like Soul Calibur that have their females in ridiculous clothes, I'm annoyed that some of the clothes are just there for guys to look at. And most of the time, just don't look nice. I don't particularly care if they are practical or not. It's probably a hold over from my time playing jrpgs, like none of what the characters where are actually practical for what they are actually doing.
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So good
As a corollary to this post,...
I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.
But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.
This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.
I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.
The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.
That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.
Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?
Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.
I'm in the same boat. There are games I have that I haven't played because the serialization of the characters is just flat out embarrassing. It's why I stopped playing Soul Caliber. My main was Taki and what they did with the character was just embarrassing. I'm currently playing Nier Automata and the characters aren't presented as sexual at all but is there REALLY a reason for a killer android to be running around in a mini skirt? Like if these being are designed to be fucking shit up and taking damage I would expect some sort of body suit, not a skirt and heels.
lol good point about Havel's backflippers, but come on... we all know that's some bullshit! Fucking giant dad builds... -_-;
I get what your saying though, I guess it's just like.... I can buy it to an extent. Say, something like Samus in Smash fighting in gym shorts and a sports bra, it works. But girls fighting with swords in lingerie can be kind of ridiculous. Most the time it doesn't bother me, since I too was basically raised on JRPGs, but sometimes it just gets too out of hand (like with Fran). I'm no prude either and am very sex positive, but some designs are just so ridiculous I gotta laugh at them.
I think I've made it pretty clear by now that what I fear is censorship, not criticism. And also the vilification of human sexuality.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone or made it look as if I'm implying something that I'm not.
Feel free to criticize, but be careful not to vilify. This isn't aimed at anyone specifically, or even at this thread, it's just something I wanted to put out there.
Also, to further clarify: I, too, wish there was more diversity in the entertainment world. 50/50 cannot and will not happen, but we could definitely be closer.
It would be nice, not just for me but I think for everyone, if every single person here could easily find something to enjoy. I'm not even a fan of outlandish designs, I simply defend artistic expression. And I won't apologize for it.
That's the thing and I think you're getting it now; we're criticizing these designs as trends of the larger industry as a whole. It's not that we're upset that any sexualized designs exist; it's that most of the time that's all there is and it can be really offputting to women as a whole. If Kojima wants to make an anime titty game, whatever that's on him. The problem comes when most games are anime titty games. It sucks that even in most relatively innocent JRPGs they have to throw in sexualized underaged girls.
To put it in perspective, look at JRPGs. Many of them have dating sim elements like Persona, Agarest War, Shining Resonance, etc. How many of these games are you forced to play as a straight man? Nearly all. In how many can you play as a woman? Hardly any. The only game I can think of that lets you play as a girl and date guys is Persona 3 Portable, which in itself is just a port of a game that didn't let you do that in the first place. It honestly baffles me that with the huge amount of women in the Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts fanbase, Japan hasn't tried to make otome/jrpg hybrids like we have dating sim/rpg hybrids.
I mean, defending artistic expression is a noble cause, but don't get too far ahead of yourself. You'd be better off defending someone like Megumi Igarashi, who has had her work censored for its sexual imagery, than defending anime titties made by companies trying to sell you a product.
Now, I'm sure there's a huge conversion to be had about commercial works and it's value as art, or what art can even be defined as. I'm just saying the concepts of free expression and censorship in art expand far, far beyond video games, which is a far younger, less developed, and juvenile medium compared to others.
And this where you and I will disagree, in that I feel set can exist to just serve to facilitate the ego of the artist as well, and whether there is a reception to that or not.
The simple answer to my friend is that she draws what she finds attractive to herself, now granted, I don't expect it to appeal to everyone. But what differentiates her from other artists is because of the way she expresses her illustrations through her own technique and style. She does well for herself selling her art and working on commission as well, so in that regards, if she had an audience willing to pay for her services, she has also achieved a secondary goal for herself.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in that he industry does need more diversity. Of course it does. But I won't call the artists part of the problem. And then when we get to try define what is art and what is not art, is a problem, because that's not something we can nor should do from my viewpoint.
And no one here is calling for such a things, as you said. But there are people who have done so and try to shame the artists, and that is a problem to me.
Aren't there a sizable amount of otome DRPGs? If not, that seems like leaving money on the table.
That's a whole other problem, and one that is simply a damn shame.
It would be perfect if you could play these games as a female. But maybe they just can't justify the effort, from a financial standpoint. I mean, I still don't like it, but I can at least understand that.
You people keep referencing "anime titties."
Is this what this thread is about? Anime? Because I'm not really an anime watcher, let alone an anime gamer. Is Metal Gear V an anime? Because I did reference Kojima, but never anime. I have never even played Xenoblade, if that's what you're actually talking about.
And I absolutely will defend these companies' rights to produce whatever artistic products they desire (legal ones, at least).
My country was under a fascist rule until very recently. Risqué material was either expunged, or modified. Now, I'm not saying this is going to escalate so much that it will come to that. Not even close. But I will advise people not to take extreme stances. There most definitely is a place for human sexuality in media, and all I'm saying is that it needs to be respected.
This, again, coming from someone who doesn't even typically consume that type of media. It just can't be condemned.
Art cannot, by any definition, simply exist without context nor without analysis. Art will always be analyzed beyond aesthetics and even if you are not interested in exploring that space it will never be immune to others doing so. Art can exist as purely personal, but as soon as it is passed into a public space it is no longer the property of the artist alone.
What the individual artist does is not the point here- the point is what the industry chooses to push as product and because of that certain art gets promoted above others. I say artists are part of the problem only in that they produce work that is sold by another party. As soon as art is created in a corporate context it is compromised by those forces. Like I said above, I do think it is an important tool to have a greater understanding of the art you create beyond its aesthetic value, but the conversation isn't about demonizing artists for what they feel compelled to draw.
Trying to turn the whole conversation into one about the sanctity of artistic expression is missing a greater dialogue about HOW art is used and WHY art is used. It's also an attempt to shut down heavier conversations about how art reflects the culture and people that create it and trying to assign a broad, ambiguous label to 'what art is' to avoid criticism- which is just as damaging as trying to place it into a tiny box.
I think you'll find we actually do not disagree on much of anything, but why I'm replying to you is that there is a concern you're not seeing the greater picture and doing a disservice to the conversation being had here. In saying 'I understand the need for diversity' while also saying 'I feel like people are trying to censure sex' you're missing any nuance in the conversation.
Nah, my friend. They've got evidence right in their faces that women will spend oodles of cash on products with hot boys in it. Free!, Yuri on Ice and Final Fantasy XV are living proof of that. Also Otome games are an entire genre of games where you play as a girl dating boys. They just haven't made that cross over into JRPGs the same way dating sims crossed over to JRPGs. No idea why, but when someone does it they'll be rich.
Despite the name, it generally refers to any character, video game or anime that features breasts that are more gratuitous for leering than realistic (size, cleavage, practicality)
It's an awfully reductive term, since it eliminates any pretense of nuance, and casts any opposing viewpoints as sophomoric. But it's so damn fun to say, especially out loud!
I think if you continue to follow this thread, you'd be pleasent surprised at the views in this thread. People vent here, but their individual viewpoints overwhelmingly tempered and rational.
I've been replaying some Layton games, and I don't think there's a single sexualised design in any of the games (barring the Phoenix Wright crossover game). Whilst there could be more racial diversity, there's lots of diverse body types for both male and female characters. It's not the greatest quality video, but here's the character gallery for the sixth game:
100% certain his idea of "cute girls", even based on his latest art exhibits, is NOT what people think of when they are thinking of a standard anime or video game female character. Did you even bother looking at the Candy Girls exhibit? Or read the article? Unsurprisingly, he also states that FFVI was his favorite Final Fantasy, and there's a lot of reasons for that and it really shows in the design. And in the article, he also talks about the creative freedom he had at the company and it sounds like he wasn't able to do what he wanted to do at the time.
Except that most of the problems we're talking about isn't just that the characters are sexy, but that they're objectified. And they are, and the design reflects that. You're arguing for sexualization without actually understanding it or why current game designs are such a problem.
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This thread is not about criticizing depictions of sexuality or riské material, nor is it about prudishness. It's about sexism and sexist stereotypes in (mostly) mainstream media. This has been made abundantly clear over and over in the thread.
The very first line of the OP says this:
Second paragraph of the OP:
I would strongly advise you to read the OP before posting in any thread as a general rule. It's simply good posting etiquette.
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Tangential but I've always found it slightly creepy when people clearly into overly sexualized anime girls describe their interest as just "liking cute girls". Like I understand it's probably more socially acceptable to say, I guess, but sometimes it makes me even question my understanding of the english word 'cute'.
I mean there's clearly a world of difference between what Amano calls cute and, say, Pyra.
I mean there's clearly a world of difference between what Amano calls cute and, say, Pyra.
This is just saying art not only shouldn't be criticized, but that it can't be. Criticism is itself an art, so to say that it shouldn't happen invalidates your own argument pretty hard.
Yeah, pretty much. It's just sad how pervasive it is in gamer circles.
I mean, that much is obvious if you look at his actual portfolio. The Virgin artbook, in particular, is all women.
Personally, I'd say he's a world above the current standards. He actually references real life, for a start.
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Considering that anime, otaku and japan are mentioned all the time, I would say so. lol
But yeah, I also find the term anime tits stupid and the constant reference to it too, just like many other terms like "shounen protagonist", "anime tropes" (when those tropes aren't originally from the media but from other ones) and other things perpetuated in the internet.
Metal Gear V is pretty anime, yeah.
I mean, to be honest pretty much Kojima's entire oeuvre is. Death Stranding's the first game I've seen by him that actually has me intrigued because of just how unlike it is from other games (perfectly possible that the trailers are just misrepresenting it though - hard to say until it's released).
When we say something is "anime" we just mean that it's following a lot of established conventions, tropes, and ideas that either reflect or are largely defined by anime and are then presented in other types of media. This is why some people even refer to light novels or manga as being "anime" in their conventions, because it's following ideas from that media. I don't know if there's a term for it, but it's well known that certain light novels are considered anime fodder because of how closely they follow those tropes and how it seems like they're written for TV rather than... well, a light novel.
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That freakin' rain dance scene would've looked only half as whack in an anime.
This is a fallacy.
For starters, there's already censorship because nudity in video games isn't exactly common. Very brutal and realistic violence towards humans is usually frowned upon as well so gaming companies steer clear of that usually.
Then there's the issue of artists not always being allowed to create what they want. They're still under the heel of their supervisors.
Finally, there's already censorship in the West due to cultural differences. And we haven't fallen into 1984.
So I'm pretty sure video game designers can tone down the cheesecake.
Anime, anime titties, otaku, etc are terms that are used often here precisely because "anime influenced" games (read: a good chunk of japanese ones) are usually the biggest offenders as far as female objectification goes in video games, and otaku are their biggest consumers and defenders of said objectification. Anime titties is self-explanatory.
It's not that we have an axe to grind with every person who happens to enjoy anime or whatever. I mean, from what I've seen, a handful of people who frequent the thread and condemn this stuff watch anime themselves.
Edit: esserius explained it better.
It's not that we have an axe to grind with every person who happens to enjoy anime or whatever. I mean, from what I've seen, a handful of people who frequent the thread and condemn this stuff watch anime themselves.
Edit: esserius explained it better.
I'll just respond to the bolded part, I dare to say that most people (if not all) here who are critical of certain designs 100% agree with that. Like the new Wolfenstein games have been brought up in this thread many times and in others, on how those treat human sexuality. Those are brought up as a positive examples, the relationship between BJ and Anya involves actual sex scenes in the game but not over sexualization of it's female characters.
I would love to see more games tackling sex and sexuality, Cibele was good in this regard too. But as you mention Kojima, if that's the way it's handled then I could do without. Considering Quiet's behaviour in the chopper in MGSV, or the infamous Snatcher as examples. Also Deus Ex creator Warren Spector has criticized games for their adolescent approach to sexuality and he's right on the money with that. Absolutely games could and should explore human sexuality more, but in more mature and thoughtful way.
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It is, however, usually a good way of telling who hasn't read His Dark Materials, or any classic American science fiction (Clarke, Dick, Cordwainer Smith in particular) XD
Yes, but Video Games would rather show us sexualised minors than anything approaching an adult interpretation of sexuality.
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